Outside of Victoria, Michael, and, to a lesser extent, Stephanie, there havent been a lot of very successful Poser characters. Poser users, into fairies, have helped maintain a strong support for the Millennium Girls. Koshini captured a nice share of the marketplace by being the first well-accepted toon character. Alexa, Laroo, and AnimeDoll have a lesser following as toons, but seem to be doing okay. The Girl will get a lot of initial purchases, but only time will tell whether the market will fully embrace another toon character. MayaDoll is about the only human character that seems to have some level of support even though its small. On the non-human side, nothing seems to have been a massive hit. Different products will capture the interest of the community for a while, but eventually support dwindles. Right now, it would be hard for somebody to challenge DAZs lock on human characters. Even Poser 5s wide availability of Poser 5 characters (everybody who has Poser 5 already owns these characters) couldnt dent that lock. That was somewhat of a surprise. Poser 5 had a ton of free content, on its second CD, for these characters in a variety of settings. That, alone, should have started a groundswell of initial support for the new Poser 5 figures. People, who bought Poser 5, brought Victoria and Michael and all their clothes into the new program and essentially ignored the new content that came with the program. That experience doesnt bode well for anybody trying to bring in a new human character. If Poser 5 couldnt do it, with its large user base and extensive starting content, its hard to imagine that anybody else can do it. Its not impossible, but somebody would have to create a figure thats so incredibly realistic that it captures everybodys imagination and wallet. That leaves the market with nonhuman characters. The problem with animals and creatures is that they have limited use for most people. The bulk of Poser images are pinups. A desire to have poseable human figures is what drove most people to get the program. After that, it seems to be fantasy, then science fiction, and, lastly, more ordinary everyday life images. Pinup images dont need a lot of animals. Fantasy images can use dragons, creatures, and horses, but dont have a lot of need for dogs or cats. Science fiction uses different creatures, but not usually the kind in fantasies (though Sixus1 did have the novel idea of turning one of their monsters into a space villain). Everyday images can use horses, dogs, and cats, but not much else from the fantasy or scifi side. Human characters can be in any of those genres, but everything else is somewhat limited by what users want to do with the characters. As pessimistic as it may sound, it seems very unlikely that there will be a new breakaway character any time soon. DAZs new Girl might be one, but I suspect it will be the flavor of the month and then drop back to the kind of level of interest that Koshini shares. With all the toon characters currently available, The Girl no longer carries the novelty it once did. There might be room for some new styles of toons. On the human side, its hard to imagine that anybody can design a figure that will blow DAZs current lines off the map. For any figure to find an audience, it would have to be compatible with the clothing currently available for DAZs Millennium figures because it would be hard to match the volume of products available for them independently. Even all the content Curious Labs provided for the P5 figures didnt generate much interest for Poser users. Any real challenge will probably come from a software/figure solution, if any of the big 3D programs, such as Maya or Max, decide to reach for consumer oriented versions of their flagship software. The current weaknesses of Poser models are inherent in the approach created for the Poser software. A different solution is needed to solve most of the current problems. The trick would then to have a new figure creation method that doesnt invalidate whats already available for Poser. A better 3D engine and program would be nice to have, but not many Poser users will want to abandon their figure investment for an incompatible approach.

"For any figure to find an audience, it would have to be compatible with the clothing currently available for DAZ?s Millennium figures because it would be hard to match the volume of products available for them independently." I think you've hit the proverbial nail on the head there. However, with the new "clothes convertor" tool from markdc, that could become less of an issue in the future. I certainly won't spend money on a figure and then spend a shedload more on clothing the poor thing. (Plus textures, plus hair...) I haven't bought the clothes tool yet - waiting to see what others have to say as there have been good and bad reports I've seen. But if it works well, and has good compatibility going forward, then it could very well change the market. But that would also be dependent to some extent on other content providers giving free updates/settings to convert their hair/textures/poses (in much the same way that Daz provides an update for many of their hair products for new figures.) However, how many merchants will do this in what is essentially a move to support a potential competitor?

While I agree that the DAZ figures are, without doubt, the "big folks on the block" (and also, without doubt, the figures that achieve the best results), I am very interested to see what kind of momentum Elle (by Neftis) brings to the table. She is a wonderful, expressive model and it will be interesting to see how support for her takes shape. I'm also one who is in line for the Girl ... I liked her from the moment I saw her picture in the early posts, and before all the other toons became available. I've been holding off on the toons, with the exception of Neftoon Gal. I wouldn't hold my breath on waiting for a "consumer" version of Max ... I gave up on Max when its prices kept rising when others were falling. It got to be too rich for my blood, and I switched to LightWave. I haven't regretted that decision one bit. All content purchased for Poser can easily be modified to work with the higher end programs - once it is rigged it should work just as any other 3D model. You may not get the advantages of multi-resolution versions of the objects (as you would have in the modeler's native formats), but they will work ... even though they would tax resources more than a multi-res object would.

However, how many merchants will do this in what is essentially a move to support a potential competitor? Hmmm ... thinking about this with an open mind, I would think that it is aactually a much better solution to leave the clothing conversions up to the customer. Not that I'm trying to "leak out" on any extra work, but that it is hard to predict what the demand will be and what characters everyone uses. Not only that, but they may also have customized characters themselves by morphing the faces and bodies.

Just ask Janet :)

There are places where DAZ has left gaping holes in their marketing. Low res Game quality figures, or background figures are really needed. Normal affordable cars that real people actually own. That is actually a good point ... the millenium figures are wonderful ... and indeed their versatility is what makes them sell. But where resources are key, they definitely won't cut it.

I agree with Deecey. I really think that Elle has a lot of potential to start a minor revolution within the cast of Poser characters.

What do you need in a human model? what would you need a new human model to do, look like, and what kind of support would you like? With all the Daz models I could make a decent GQ mag or a Vogue mag, but I'd be hard pressed to make a everyday scene with 20 people on a NY street scene with them. You know, black men and women, asian, indian, etc etc. but that stuff does not sell in the poser market places. For me better joints and bending of arms and knees, shoulders those are the things I look for in newer models. Support is also a big issue. If your just talking about human models that are not Daz and how to get away from Daz models, well a modeler would need a lot of clothing creators support and the various markets to adopt the model. For clothing creators it's about selling and what sells right now is clothing for the Daz models. Doesn't mean that someone couldn't do it, just would be very hard to compete with the biggest producer of human figures. A human model that wasn't producted by Daz could do very well just hasn't happened yet. Oh and the Poser 4 models? yeah those are Zygote, and the Poser 5 models? yeah those are reworked Poser 4 models with some help from the clothing makers at RuntimeDNA and a few others. It is kinda funny if you think about it, Poser human models were made by Zygote, people left Zygote and started Daz and create poser figures. In a sence you could say that almost all the human figures are or were built by Daz. Boils down to what do ya need in a new human model. Oh and Daz IS listening, their new human steph male is coming. Dodger has Puck, Elle is out now, there is a male over at 3d commune, Anton has Maximus if he decides to release him. Clothing converter will help, and as more and more people learn to model they will support what they like to use, look at Mayadoll.

The only reason I don't use Koshini so much is because there is no decent "warrior" outfits out there for her. I haven't seen one that suited my tastes for her (I know there are some out there.) I've played around with a few pieces with the "fifi" stuff, and they are beautiful, but I was looking for more fantasy stuff. I agree that DAZ seems to be "it". But, if a really well done new figure(s) were to come along, there could be some competition. Yes, the one of the things that will be important would be it's compatiblity with existing content would be the second most important thing. Price, I feel, would be the first. Is the price competitive? If a manikin were made to work with The Tailor, plus you do have the new clothes converter, a market does exist. However, you're not just competing with DAZ on that level. You do have the Platinum Club and the benefits of that to deal with. I think time will tell; depending upon if DAZ continues to make this small mistakes that seem to be plaguing them of late, how the new figures are released and supported, and how will they mesh with what already exisits in the marketplace.

Also, I've never used Don and Judy for the same reason I didn't use Posette and Dork - compared to the Millenium figures, they suck. I've never bothered with them because most of the content I own is for Mike and Vicky. And like many others, I have a lot invested in those figures. I'm not going to toss that type of an investment away.

Define successful. For the topic at hand, I'd consider successful as meaning a high level of support for a character such that users can find the clothing and accessories they want to use and that the characters get a lot of usage in galleries. There's a synergy between users and merchants that has a degree of inertia to get the ball rolling. If a character is used a lot, merchants will make items for that character. A lot of people won't buy a character until there's a lot of support. It's one of the reasons that DAZ has given away a few characters. People, that have a character are more likely to start using the character right away and that might generate interest in having items available for those characters. Victoria and Michael are extremely successful characters because those characters have wrestled the standards for Poser figures away from the makers of Poser. All a person has to do to see the success of those two characters is to go to any Poser merchant site and look at how much is available for Mil figures versus anything else. I can't give a figure or number. In terms of the discussion here, widespread product acceptability is what I was thinking of. I'm sure that Studio May considers MayaDoll very successful because the character is being used and there's a fair amount of clothing for her. There's still not any massive level of support for MayaDoll. One potential problem with getting mass acceptance of a character is that the biggest supplier of Poser figures and accessories will not support a product it doesn't carry. DAZ has no MayaDoll, NeftoonGal, or Laroo products. That, in and of itself, will limit the widespread acceptability of any character that doesn't start at DAZ. > with the new "clothes convertor" tool from markdc, that could become less of an issue in the future Yes and no. I remember a thread where Mark said that there's still a good half hour's work in converting any clothing item. If I can buy a clothing item for a new character for $2, I might consider that a fair exchange for a half hour's work. > I wouldn't hold my breath on waiting for a "consumer" version of Max I tried and almost died. Poser has something that I don't think any other 3D graphics product has and that is a large buying aftermarket. Poser users are spending money after they buy the program and, in the long run, will spend significantly more. I don't know if it's large enough to make it worth the while of the bigger companies. Adobe has a consumer version of Photoshop (Elements), so there's always the possibility of one of the big 3D graphics companies reaching down to a lower end market. If not, somebody else will put out a powerful, low-cost, easy to use 3D application. There's a gap between the free programs and the high end programs that will eventually get filled. I can't think of any other way that another company or person can gain the kind of groundswell that DAZ has with their primary figures other than to bring an accepted standard in the high-end graphics world and bring it to the Poser world. > There are places where DAZ has left gaping holes There are holes, but I don't know if they're gaping holes. There are lots of areas where DAZ and merchants are not heavily producing things. I suspect that they're holes where there is limited desire. There's a reason why there aren't many Poser Honda Civics and it's probably the same reason that there aren't a lot of average to less than average looking Poser characters. People are buying the sporty cars they can't afford for the attractive characters they cannot be. For a content creator, will a Honda Civic sell as much as a Corvette or a fantasy costume for Victoria? I'd bet that the creators building cars are car buffs and making what they want to see and are less concerned with the marketability of the model. DAZ also doesn't do dynamic hair or dynamic clothes. For whatever reason, just about everybody has left monster making to Sixus1 and BeyondBent. If I need to use low-res characters, P4 characters are a good starting point because I've got tons of clothes and morphs and hairs for those figures. > I've never used Don and Judy for the same reason I didn't use Posette and Dork - compared to the Millenium figures, they suck. To be honest, I haven't used them either. Judy has an awful default face. Don looks like a cross between Michael 2 and 3. I don't really know if the P5 characters are decidedly inferior to the Millennium figures. I seem to recall an old post that their joints weren't as well tuned as the Millennium figures. They're still a step up from the P4 figures. I'll bet the lack of support for the P5 figures was a surprise to both Curious Labs and DAZ. I'm not against any other figure grabbing a solid share of the Poser market. I'd like to see more competition. It will be very hard for it to happen. At the moment, I'd guess that MayaDoll is the most successful human character not created by DAZ.

myself personally i would like to see whole character sets for sale, the actual model character/person and the clothes(not just textures for clothes we would have to buy to achieve the look) hair everything as seen in the pic! fairys that don't look like cute little girls? more mythological creatures. and definitly lots of scenes(these too as awhole paks.) background,object/props,terrain,lighting ect... we also need more basic object/props ex: clouds,sun,hair peices,clothes bits(ribbons,ruffles,buttons,pockets ect.) an update for poser4 that allows a conformed item like shoes to actually fit the characters feet. (resize-bend) and to be able to tell poser which clothes items should remain on top. netta

Outside of Victoria, Michael, and, to a lesser extent, Stephanie, there havent been a lot of very successful Poser characters. I disagree, I think there are some great non DAZ carachters that have come out over at Sixus 1! Scrum, Behemoth, Lil' Britta. Adam, Lillith. They are out there, if you can find them.

Don't forget Natalia and Dina, and their offshoots. Dacort does some wonderful modelling...

I think there is a place for any new model, but I have yet to see anyone other than Daz do a realistic set. Most of the offshoots are great for fantasy, but they just don't cut it for other projects I have. When someone creates a model that looks as human as the Daz models and doesn't cost a mint I will probably pick it up, but I haven't seen any yet. Marque

If it's good enough. A good human figure that has a lot of morphs could do very well. It all comes down to variation. I'd love to see another good male figure. Heck, I'd settle for another female figure. There have been other semi-successful figures, other than Daz. Ragbash was pretty popular for a while. Dacort's women have a unique charm. They failed in that they didn't have 3rd party support from day 1, and good marketing. I see a new human figure with about the same number of polygons as the unimesh, with a complete set of morphs on par with the Daz figures, and a large and varied group of 3rd party artists committed to making clothing and textures. It's not the kind of thing a single person can do by themselves. It'd take a team effort from the start. rDNA could pull it off, I think. Or possibly a group from one if the more organized broker sites (PP maybe). I'd love to see an Anton figure, Catherina and StefyZZ and Quim textures, Capice's morphs, and cloths by a number of different modelers done. Throw in Dodger, Nerd, and PhilC for more innovation and ideas. Then, continuing on with more variations as to age and sex, a complete line. The biggest hurdle is the need for a project leader that can manage something of this type, with all the creative personalities involved. I think the ex-evil overlord (lady) Lyrra could probably do it. I know I'd do almost anything for her. Finally, Steve Shanks. Poserworld is the best bellweather of something being successful. Steve is the fastest and one of the best clothing and scene modelers, period. If something is going to succeed, Poserworld has to be making stuff for it. It's possible. Any volunteers? I'll do the leather clothing.

pdxjims yep, think your about spot on there.

Don't forget Natalia and Dina, and their offshoots. Dacort does some wonderful modelling... Dale B.. I couldnt agree more, aside from the maybe not so pretty face Dina has, her geometrie and flexibility across the board excell past any of the Daz figures. I think HandspanStudious did Drusila, I have posed this charcter for hours and got to say, no other figures poses with better realism, out of our local pick anyways. Aside from her face, the only other downfall I see is her mapping, but with some of the newer programs out there, its forseeable that mapping qualities for Dina can get as good as the ones you find for V series if someone wanted to re-uv Dina that is.

While there may be figures that pose wonderfully, I have found that where most other models fall short is in facial expression. Yes, it's great to have morphs that allow you to depict several different ethnicities, ages, and sizes, I think the area that has been severely lacking ... in ALL models ... is having the ability to achieve natural facial expression. I have to say, though, that is the key reason that I find Elle very promising. Of all the Poser characters that are available now, Elle without doubt has the most PERSONALITY. That's why I say she is expressive ... you can tell that Neftis REALLY worked on that gal's smile and facial expressions. Maybe it's just me that has this preference ... but I find that the expression of a character goes a LONG way in setting the mood of an image. Elle looks like she is alive to me ... she looks like she has a soul. I think that is just as important as posability.

I agree about Elle's expressions, they are fabulious, however the arm bends bother me. nothing is perfect, I guess that's why there is this topic, we are all just looking for IT, whatever IT is.

watches from the Old Fogey's Rocker I remember when NudeYoungWoman was the Thing. Remember her? mm? probably don't .. that was waaay back in the days of Poser3. Yes I said 3 grin And then it was Posette this Posette that .. and Eve and then next thing you know Victoria showed up, and then Judy came in late but couldn't make the cut. Poor thing .. not her fault she shipped with a less than user fiendly version of the program. Victoria .. that's where DAZ took the market. Since then there have been some compeition but by and large, the industry standard is Daz product, like it or not. At least for the most part Daz's models are well built, well mapped (not that first dragon though!) and user friendly. Its hard to be all things to all people. I agree with pdxjim that lack of support is what has killed most other 3rd party models ... Natalie, Dina, Cindy... why get a new model if you have 1 skin texture and one clothing item? easier to get Vicky and pick up all the free addons lying around. Not everyone can cough up a few hundred bucks every time a new pretty face shows up. Fads have come and gone (thank god!) and so even the mouse has had his day. Mayadoll is the first free model with a great support base .. and that I think is because the Japanese Poser group is so strong (which is a Good Thing). The Anime doll is also doing very well since it perfectly fits a certain look that has gone begging in the market for a very long time. And she can steal the Mayadoll's clothing which is helpful :) I think that if a dedicated group gets their act together, like the Japanese Poser guys, it may in fact be possible to make and support a new free figure. But. Who here can afford the time and money that will take? Most of the better known and experianced makers are hip deep in projects that go towards paying rent and bandwidth. Newer users don't know the pitfalls to avoid, and don't have the circle of contacts needed for support. A site can do it .. look at Laroo and Alexa .. but we're running out of big sites with the resources. It could happen. It has happened. But will it happen again? only time will say PS I'm having some odd affects on Steve ... so who knows what PW is going to come up with? evil grin Lyrra

As of today, according to the 3DC tally, Nesterenko has sold 1144 units of Nadya at $30 a unit. Not bad for one artist making a human Poser figure from the ground up; somewhere in the area of $34k gross so far, not taking into account the clothes and other paks sold by the same artist for the same model. A lot of the Japanese artists like MayaX and Kozaburo are showing us how it should be done and giving it away for FREE! DAZ and a lot of venders all around the Poser community owe a great debt of gratitude to the Japanese artists whose free products are used to sell commercial products. I think the independents should be supported and encouraged to continue to fill the holes DAZ cannot fill.

we are all just looking for IT, whatever IT is I found IT once. It wasnt pretty either. LOL

Also, I've never used Don and Judy for the same reason I didn't use Posette and Dork - compared to the Millenium figures, they suck Actually, they dont. They were built with the concept in mind that the user would tailor the figure to suit his/her own tastes, which means a certain degree of blandness to start with. But both posette and the dork have enormous possibilities by applying a few face morphs and some decent texturing -- problem is, you have to work at it a little to make it happen. And most Poser users appear to have serious trouble with that idea.

yeah well, I found HER once, she found HIM and the search continues. Sad really. Lyrra interesting history, one can learn from the past. RAMNIMUS had not even heard of the figure til ya posted that, interesting statistics.

I agree that Maya Doll is the most succesfull figure outside Daz. And why this happened?Because all the japanese community support her and creates FREE stuff for her! Even New Judy (AnAn) starts to have support!When Judy is here for a long time and still very few things for her! Why?Maybee because japanese people do poser for fun and not for the money!Who knows... I always wonder why other free figures don't have any luck...I guess people want to pay... :)

Machineclaw wrote, 'With all the Daz models I could make a decent GQ mag or a Vogue mag, but I'd be hard pressed to make a everyday scene with 20 people on a NY street scene with them.' Thats a very valid point and one I'd like to see addressed. The galleries are stuffed to overflowing with cute and pretty Vickies. Any new poser model that concentrated on a more 'normal' look or better yet the exact opposite of whats currently available might be in with a shout. Imagine a model that could morph into an eighty year old granny or be transformed into a typical, jolly, 100lb overweight baker's wife. Or a sour-faced, rake-thin, prissy schoolmarm? Head morphs would include dials for 'Wrinkles' 'Number of chins' or 'Turkey neck.' It could have breast morphs ranging from 'Overripe cantaloupe' to 'Spaniel's ears.' Belly morphs labelled 'Flabby, saggy and Where's my knees?' Or an extra dialog box that appears when you select the buttocks that says 'How many asses do you require?' And texture maps to suit of course. 'Warty witch' 'Shrewish schoolmarm' and 'I slept in this makeup' all spring to mind. Warts and varicose veins coming to freestuff soon. :o)

Replicant any of these lovely lasses strike your fancy? All v3 .. you just haveta spin the dials that DAZ gave ya. The model exists .. just that nobody USES her that way. I didn't botehr with faces or scaling for height changes ... but this gives you an idea of what can be done. The potential is there. But you can't make a horse drink the water, as the old saying goes. (all original DAZ morphs)

*G* I guess I'm nobody then ;o)

Hehehehe, too cute!

problem is, you have to work at it a little to make it happen. And most Poser users appear to have serious trouble with that idea. Boy, this has touched upon a topic that I feel is a big part of the solution. I agree with this wholeheartedly. There are both good and bad sides to having so much available for Poser. On one hand, the program has exposed a LOT of people to 3D art - people who may not have gotten into it otherwise. Having the ability to take a human character, clothe it, pose it, and plop it into a scene is a really great thing for people who couldn't have been able to do this on their own in another 3D program. It's EXCITING to see the results after they are done rendering. However this is a double-edged sword. On one hand, there is so much available to create really good art in Poser. On the other hand, it has created a situation where everything is already done for you ... textures, poses, expressions, body shapes, body styles, clothing, etc. All that the artist has to do is assemble, render, and postwork. As a result, there is a certain sameness in a lot of the images. Vicky and Mike are extremely versatile characters, which is a large reason why they are so popular. Yet, very few use these figures to their full potential. Pose the eyes. Give the face some expression. Pay attention to the hands, which can be just as expressive as a face. These are simple things that can really make or break a render. But beyond that, try using face and body morphs to give your characters a totally original look. Yes, it takes longer to create the scene, or to make the clothing fit just right ... but you know what? It's those little things that make the image YOURS. The reward of that is totally worth the effort. 8-)

Actually, they dont. They were built with the concept in mind that the user would tailor the figure to suit his/her own tastes, which means a certain degree of blandness to start with. But both posette and the dork have enormous possibilities by applying a few face morphs and some decent texturing -- problem is, you have to work at it a little to make it happen. And most Poser users appear to have serious trouble with that idea.<< You left off this part of my post - I've never bothered with them because most of the content I own is for Mike and Vicky. And like many others, I have a lot invested in those figures. I'm not going to toss that type of an investment away - which also plays heavily into it. I had Poser 3 and 4 and PP before 5. The bulk of the content I own supports the Millenium figures. There was no content available for Don/Judy when 5 first came out and if I wanted to do images, I was not going to use models that I didn't have clothing items for. I don't know how to do textures, nor do I know how to model clothing, so Don/Judy are useless to me and IMO they suck. And that is just a matter of opinion. To you they don't suck. I also agree, it would take more than one person, someone who is very organized, to band together a group of modelers and texture artists and they would have to put out some amazing content. If there is enough support for it, then I think someone could compete with DAZ.

There was no content available for Don/Judy when 5 first came out and if I wanted to do images, I was not going to use models that I didn't have clothing items for. Actually that isn't quite true ... P5 did come furnished with a lot of content for the default figures, as well as a content CD that had a lot of "extras" and props. I think there are a few reasons why the P5 figures didn't gain acceptance ... (1) The program itself got off to a rocky start; (2) Victoria and Michael's popularity (as you pointed out ... lots of investment and energy already put there); and (3) they were ... um ... less attractive than Victoria and Michael. I think now that the performance problems (or most of them, anyway) have been addressed, you are seeing that some are paying attention to the Poser 5 characters. I doubt they will surpass Michael and Victoria in Poser art because there IS work involved with getting them to look good. But I don't think we should throw them out with the bath water yet. 8-)

I don't know that I even looked at much of the content. I guess I figured it was likely everyday wear. I work with a lot of Fantasy and SciFi.

They are ugly and you can't even get a decent smile out of Judy without using addon products. I don't think Don is too bad but Judy is terrible. Marque

I wish we could have seen the original design for Judy. ChrisD's description of her sounded rather intriguing.

Look at what is available and what isn't. You'll find the gap automatically. Hi res , we'v got enough. Produce a relatively low res character, somewhere between Posette and the P4-Lo res figures. Model some real people. Real chest-breasts-real arms -real faces, and no plastic imitations. Be sure to get the joint parameters OK. Give them some elementary clothes ( please no more bikini's ), a shirt, trousers, shoes, skirt, dress, and put them up for free. First find the server that could handle this. Current ones will melt away. Grteetings, Tony

I remember when Posette was the rage! Jagger was making morphs faster than people could get them - same with Traveler. Jim Burton came along and smoothed those knee bulges. It was a great time. Last night I was looking over all the clothes textures for Posette - some of the finest work ever created. PhilC's first corset, the leather-wear with oh-so-real zippers... Lady Veths lingerie... When Victoria came out we all thought she was butt-ugly. Her eyebrows alone took up most of the posts here. Everybody was making something to share. The inspiration was incredible. Sometimes less is more.

there are some great non DAZ carachters that have come out over at Sixus 1! Scrum, Behemoth, Lil' Britta. Adam, Lillith. I dont disagree. Ive bought a half dozen Sixus1 characters, but theres not a lot of external support for them. The real money isnt in the characters, but in the clothing, textures, accessories and modifications of the base characters. There are only three official versions of Victoria, but there are thousands of products to supplement those models. For chuckles, I did a search through the Renderosity Marketplace for different characters to get some rough order of magnitude of support. Renderosity doesnt sell any official characters of their own, so theres no built-in bias for any particular figure. Here are the results: Victoria - 2248 Michael - 879 Stephanie - 547 Freak - 86 Mayadoll - 38 Dina - 23 Laroo - 18 Alexa - 15 (about, since the search picked up Alexandra, etc.) Neftoon Girl - 11 Nadya - 1 (just an eye texture that's compatible with all figures) Lillith - 0 That's an eye-opener if anybody wants to compare levels of product acceptance. Mayadoll has the next greatest quantity of products next to the DAZ biggies, just about beating nearly every other figure by a factor of two or more. Comparing 38 products to 2,248 for Victoria makes whatever great strides Mayadoll made look pretty flimsy. That's not an indication of what Mayadoll isn't (she's a great character), but points out the mammoth entrenched success that DAZ has achieved with their Millennium figures. It highlights the difficulty of getting a greater share of the marketplace with a new stand-alone figure. These numbers are just in the Rendo store and don't consider other Poser stores or items at free sites, but I would expect percentages to be somewhere in this ballpark where adding all the non-DAZ human figures together wouldn't amount to much more than 1%-5% of all the items supporting Victoria. The real next-best supported figures would be the P4 ones, but there's not much merchant support for them anymore. > The only real reason to make a figure line NOT based on some version of Mike and Vicky is that for some reason, they can't do what you want to. That's why it will be hard to top DAZ right now. I'd suspect that the main limitations of the models, today, is the rigging scheme built into Poser. It's going to be very hard to develop a human character that is so spectacular that a good proportion of Poser users will drop all the clothing and accessories they've bought for Victoria and Mike to move to new characters that require all new clothing and accessories. It's probably a lot less painful to just build that new character off the Millennium figures (and inject them or whatever process works) so that there is a high compatibility with existing inventories of bought items. >On one hand, there is so much available to create really good art in Poser. On the other hand, it has created a situation where everything is already done for you ... textures, poses, expressions, body shapes, body styles, clothing, etc. ShhhhhYou'll be cutting every merchant's throat if you start telling Poser users that they can do stuff on their own :) Everything in life is a mix of time, money, and priorities. Anybody can make a photorealistic texture or create their own characters with the existing morphs that either come with, or can be bought, for the Millennium characters. Anybody can cook their own meals or sew their own clothes and save a lot of money. It takes time and a certain level of skill to do better than what others can do. Sometimes, it's just faster and more effective to buy a frozen meal or buy clothing from a store or buy a character model, texture, or clothing from a Poser store. There's a certain level of satisfaction in doing these things on our own, but there's a cost in time to do them. The real purist thinks we ought to create our own figures, too. There will always be some level in compromise between home grown and store bought. Let's face it, some modelers and texture makers and character builders have a knack that most Poser users will never match. It's often more productive to just buy from the experts. > Produce a relatively low res character, somewhere between Posette and the P4-Lo res figures. It sounds like a niche area that needs to be filled, but it won't knock Vicky and Mike off their pedestals. Look at the Poser galleries. How many images with crowds are there? It's mostly pinups (14 out of 18 images when I looked at the Poser gallery a little while ago). Flak's one of the few artists that routinely does crowd scenes (his Siege drawing had a cast of hundreds). Most Poser artists are happy putting a lone Vicky in an erotic costume on a simple background. I wonder how many P4 clothed figures have been put into Poser without slowing the engine down to a crawl. It would be nice to have more figure options, but most Poser users aren't really stretching the limits of the products they currently have at their disposal (including me, but I'll eventually start pushing further). The future is always hard to predict and it'll be interesting to see what new things come down the pike.

One figure I think could make it if it ever was released is Maximus by Anton. I was looking at the threads about his developement recently and he has something the DAZ people don't have, and that is arms that look like they come from a real person. DAZ has turned me into a Dazaholic in the short time I've been actively using Poser, and I love all the main DAZ figures, but there are still certain things I dislike about them which haven't as yet been addressed such as the arms thing and muscle placement. As for "stretching the limits" of what we've got, I believe that it takes time, and as folks become more acustomed to what they have then folks will push their figures further. Catlin

"There are places where DAZ has left gaping holes in their marketing. Low res Game quality figures, or background figures are really needed." I actually have some ultra-low res Poser figures, the one shown is the only one fully finished, but there are others (including a guy) in various stages of completion. They are probably going to remain unfinished though, unless I do them up as Free-stuff (and the texture shown can't be given away with them), because actually there doesn't seem to be any real intrest in this kind of figure from most Poser users. All the rage is hi-res, as much as your computer can bear. ;-) Incidently, I think the state of the art has advanced to the point where it would be extreamly unlikely that any single person could come up with a rival to V3, as the amount of work required boggles the mind, think of all those morphs, not to mention the JCM. You would have to devote months and months (maybe years) to him/her, then it still wouldn't sell unless you had clothing to fit the figure for release at the same time.

I'm very interested in Ultra Lo res figures. The trick is, even in those figures, I would like a measure of V3/M3 Et all, compatibility. If I could get "tootsie" quality figures for background it would be awsome. I think Valander was working on a set of Low Res figures a while back I had big hopes for. But they never materialized.

When Victoria came out we all thought she was butt-ugly. Oh, do you remember those days? ROFL how fun it is to look back! (Victoria? What's the big deal? Her head is too small! She looks like an amazon!) Then Michael (He looks like Dan Farr!!! ... hehehe ... His shoulders are weird! He's too buff!) Just too funny! 8-) >> Everything in life is a mix of time, money, and priorities. Indeed it is ... and you also have users with a wide variety of experiences. Some can create accessories themselves, and some prefer that others create for them so that all of the technical stuff is out of the way. Truthfully, I like the challenge of pulling my hair out while figuring out joint parameters, but believe me I fully recognize that it is not for everyone! >> I actually have some ultra-low res Poser figures, the one shown is the only one fully finished, but there are others (including a guy) in various stages of completion. As always, top rate, Jim! And as always, impeccable shoes and legs. 8-) >> Incidently, I think the state of the art has advanced to the point where it would be extreamly unlikely that any single person could come up with a rival to V3, as the amount of work required boggles the mind Indeed, indeed! Clothing is hard enough ... but modeling a convincingly real human is a major undertaking. And Poserizing it is a real bear!

I think that there is a gap in poser conserning High quality low resolution figures. When Lori came out I said "wow the best freeby of the year!" She is fantastic and she is just 1 mb!I could not believe that a low res model could bend and pose so well!This is what I call quality! Same thing with Mike and Vicky LoRes,Many times I've used them instead of V2-M2 and there was no difference! Elle comes with a low resolution figure and this is great! Ultra Realism is great but it is not always needed, and you can have a great level of realism without Hi poly...

Interesting thread,I must say. I know we all have our favorite charaters,and for most (but surely not for all)Vicky and Michael have become the new Posette and Dork. They are far from being perfect,but trying to replace them would be no small feat. But what does the future hold for charater creation? A great deal of intrest is popping up over displacement and normal mapping of very low rez figures that gives ultra high detail. Detail that you can't find in current figures. And lets not forget who the new owner of Poser is. Unlike Meta or CL,Shade takes great pride in their figure creating. Could something like this be the new Posette in Poser6.........

............??!!

Thanks guys!- Incidently, she is really low-res, under 4,000 polygons with hair and shoes, less than 1/4 of the Posette's count. It sort of defeats the low-res idea if she wears Vickie's clothing though, the idea was to have the clothing and the figure all as one, I have another wearing a suit-jacket and mini skirt, and a third as a French Maid. The edges are in the mesh, as is some of the detailing, but they need good textures to fly well. These are actually Poser versions of the Sim's figures I sell, they never really took off (turns out Sim's players don't buy anything), so I thought I'd try converting them. I might get back to them later, right now I'm working day and night on G.I.R.L. clothing.

Hey Jim these figures are fantastic. I do most of my rendering in Bryce and there is no way to have multiple Vickies and Mikes without my computer coming to a standstill. Low res figures like these would work great in Bryce for filling out background scenes with crowds. If you did release these would we have to texture them ourselves and could we possibly have similar looking figures with a variety of clothing? Catlin

And lets not forget who the new owner of Poser is. Unlike Meta or CL,Shade takes great pride in their figure creating. That's an interesting thought that there could be new generation figures introduced in a future version of Poser. CL hasn't indicated anything like that happening with Poser 6 and would probably be gunshy over the lack of acceptance of the P5 figures. It's not out of the realm of possibility, particularly if they look as good as some of the Shade models I've seen. If CL provides a large quantity of new content, as they did with Poser 5 (I'll post the list in a new message), it at least gets users a lot of outfits to start playing with the new models. New characters, packaged with Poser, have the potential to gain wide acceptance because all users of the software automatically get the new figures. From the comments above, Don and Judy were basically too little too late and weren't any better than Michael and Victoria, so they never caught on. The other fly in the ointment is that CL and DAZ are slowly taking diverging paths and it's likely someday that both Poser and DAZ Studio will be different programs with incompatible figures. Both should remain backward compatible with P4, but DAZ already ignores Poser 5 features, so there's little reason to believe that they will make any efforts to be compatible with future Poser features, especially as Studio becomes a fuller application. That's a shame because the real losers in such company fights are always users. No matter how good a new figure is, it's hard to move people over to a new standard. With Mayadoll seeming to be the next highest accepted Poser human figure, the character is still dwarfed by what's available for Victoria. I just looked at the other major Poser stores and there's no Mayadoll support at them. There's none at DAZ, none at RDNA or 3D Commune, and there's only three Animedoll products at PoserPros. I'd estimate that there are roughly in excess of 5000 commercial products (adding all the big Poser stores together) that can be used for Victoria and less than 1% as many commercial products for Mayadoll. Again, this is all numbers and not a reflection against the quality of Mayadoll. I'm only using Mayadoll as an example because, at the moment, Mayadoll is the closest thing to a competitive figure against Victoria--which is a good indication of what a great job Studio Maya did with the character. In spite of how good Mayadoll is, it's hardly a threat to Victoria's mass acceptance Poser users, who have invested hundreds of dollars in clothing, accessories, figures, and textures for Victoria are going to have a hard time shifting loyalties to a new figure, no matter how good it is. I know, in my case, I pick a figure based on the outfit I want in the image more than who the figure is. I'm more likely to use Victoria 2 than 3 in my stuff because I have more outfits for the older character. I had a SWAT outfit for V2 and not V3, so that's what I decided to use in my werewolf image. I haven't used either enough to say one is better or worse than the other. There's not much reason to buy something for one character if I've already bought it for the other. I sure don't have the money to duplicate wardrobes for each character. It's odd, but having just thought about what I said above, it dawned on me that one of the keys to creating a successful new figure may be less the figure than what's available for the figure that nobody else has. The success of Nintendo, Sega, or XBox is not the basic box , but the software titles available for each. The companies behind each videogame have ensured that they have a killer product that the others don't so that game players have to consider getting the other box to play the game they want. As with Poser, the money is not in the base products, but in what can be bought to supplement them. Of course, there is a massive difference in the workload between creating a current videogame title and a Poser figure. If somebody created a killer outfit for a brand new character, it would only be a matter of time till another creator did something similar for DAZ characters (after all, Alexa and Sarah bore striking resemblances to the The Girl). Is there any advantage to creating a human character with an entirely new mesh over providing morphs to a unimesh character? I've got minimal skills as a modeler, but it seems as if the DAZ figure meshes have enough capability in them to satisfy most modelers. I'm curious whether there is any inherent advantage to go to an entirely new mesh. The immediate problem is that compatibility with existing products gets thrown out.

quote: I also haven't seen Don and Judy look like any character I want to work with. well i did.. it was called Anan by yamato and i miss i cannot buy judy separatly from poser 5, even with loosing any p5 figure feature such as face factory and such, wouldn't care, just to have anan in p4 ! well mayadoll and animedoll are doing okay so far. and i feared mayadoll would have been buried since august 2003 inf act :( Please don't even bring in Laroo on the same field, i is insulting ! Laroo is not anime girl, it is roswell :) as long as you have a good cloth support, and/or make your character at least a bit compatible (mapping/texure, or clothes) with a known one, there is hope kaedeko was interesting but withotu support. sara was not broadly used but interesting. but on the field sarah try to grow, GIRL would be the next competitor...