Attached Link: http://www.cgtalk.com

A P P E A L ! ! !

Guys (& Ladies ;-) ), look at the artistic level of Renderoisity galleries, and go on CGTalk and compare both galleries - OK pros are on CGTalk and amateurs on Renderosity, but we are all responsible for the look and artistic form of this place - be more inventive, be more exigent and critical towards your creations and those post by others.

Maybe some of you think that it is "politically correct" to post lame renders and require only "excellent" ranks and post comments dipping from hollow superlatives...

• Wrong!

Doing this, we kill the artistic level of this gallery, we chase valuable artist from here.

Don't let Renderosity became a place for lame kitsch

Each of us can do better, can work harder on its pictures before posting them.

I play with Vue since 3 years, I have almost no other experience with graphics, never studied art - I am chemistry engineer - and Pole (my nation is known worldwide for its diligence, precision and invention ;-) just joking)

I can not do a nice picture in 15 minutes - nobody can - it is impossible - so I don't post 1000 same lame quality pictures.

Let's try to prepare something that can really impress someone and post it when we feel that we've done everything possible.

Lets all be responsible for THE ART!

May the imagination & creativity be with you!

Message edited on: 03/19/2005 15:28

I can agree with that but I like the look of renderosity's web pages much more than cgtalk's.

Let me join to the appeal.
The level of great majority of renders in vue gallery is very poor. There are only few artists which art is worth seeing and comenting. In my opinion 90% of all renders in vue gallery is a simply KITSCH and nothing more.
Poor renders get excellent ranks and the overall level is going down
We are all responsible for this..so lets do somethong with it !!!!!!

Message edited on: 03/19/2005 15:42

I do agree....

BUT

I must admire you for having such an overall feel for the Vue community! There are DOZENS of pictures rendered in Vue posted here every day....and you claim that 90% of those are kitsch.....you must have an awfull lot of time on your hands to be able to view 100% of them - and claim 90% to be kitsch!!!

My opinion - as insignificant as it may be - is that a LOT of people do their VERY best to make great art with Vue! Not all of us are talented as you. No. Let me refrase: I am not very talented. But I DO enjoy making pictures in Vue. I work on a picture for days - or weeks! That might not be visible to you - and I do understand that. But calling 90% of Vue renders "kitsch" is to me plain snobbery!

A lot of people in here do their pictures in Vue and render with their heart! Respect them! What we achieve might not be fantastic - or even great, or new, or striking but the emotion behind it IS real!

I'm not sure what to say here, czarnyrobert. What you have said is inspiring. I also agree with it a lot. And finally, off topic, I'm amazed at your English (bowing). But, as I lift my imaginary beer to my lips and stare across the small round table at you, I smile and ask you the following: IS Renderosity supposed to be pro? And what about the hobby people we have here? What about those, like me, who don't have a lot of artistic abilities? Should we just never post (because we don't want to embarrass other Vue users)? I wish Vue and Poser were not looked down upon so much in CGTalk. But, let's understand this: An affordable piece of software attracts people willing to part with money in order to try to express themselves artistically. The more affordable it is, the more people take that "step" to see what they can do. Your bound to get people who aren't wonderful with their new tools. And, I admire your work! It's wonderful and detailed as anything out there. But CGTalk just isn't R'City in my opinion. Two different sites if you ask me.

"90% of all renders in vue gallery is a simply KITSCH and nothing more. Poor renders get excellent ranks and the overall level is going down We are all responsible for this..so lets do somethong with it !!!!!!" Oh well, how about helping people to do better? It is always easy to complain but not to participate and help - with comments critiques or answering technical questions. I know a lot of people here where i can see a big progession over time. By training, experience or whatever. Good help from friends too. So do something and help others to become better. Or does "lets do something with it" mean to ask people not to post here?

It takes me at LEAST 1 week, if not longer to put a pic together. I spend hours upon hours TRYING to perfect textures/terrains & lighting. So I will agree with pixpax, on the 90% "kitsch" thing.

Please for reference purposes, would you please tell us what you consider to be "kitsch". Also, please illuminate us all, as to what you consider your eyes worthy of looking at. I'd love to know what you think constitutes a WORTHY render.

I work 8-10 hours a day....I have only a few hours each night to work on pic & weekends(and yes ALL my peeps are clothed). So are insuating we should not even think of posting a pic in the galleries????
PFTTTTTTTTT.

I also agree with CzarneyRobert on some issues. I don't need drooling comments to make my day. So that's a mute point as far as I'm concerned.

Even though, some of the pics in the galleries albeit Poser/Vue/Bryce etc. are NOT what I consider to be good or to my liking, I will not tell the person such, not here. It's not up to me to put personal views onto other people. For example, I don't care for nudes, I find them boring, but hey that's me, that does NOT give the right to go spewing on all the nudes & telling people to stop. I can name several other generes I'm not interested in, but I don't consider them total crap, just because I'm not into that genre.

Message edited on: 03/19/2005 16:32

Although I somewhat agree that most pics aren't of professional quality; should only the professional quality pics be posted? If so, I guess I will never post a pic again. I do agree with the false grading system usually used. I don't want an excellent rating unless I truly deserve it. (Which probably won't be for a long while!) Sometimes I post a pic because I have worked on it, and put what meager abilities I have to it. If you have site that I should post to instead, I'm all ears.

Although I do agree in some degree, remember that not all of us artists.... some of us just love to play and show of the fun we're having. czarnyrobert, I really admire your work, but we have to face the reality that most of us will never achieve what you can. The question is also do we want too? I'm not considering my self to be a proffesional artist at all and for that reason I hardly ever go over to CGTalk. They didn't even bother to have a Vue forums until Infinite came, that already says enough. I've made some nice work and I've made some what you would consider work that kills the artistic level of this gallery. But, I still enjoyed both of them as much and not all my work I do post is meant to be artistic at all. Some of it is wip, some of it is just for fun and some of it is good of enough even in your eyes perhaps. But I have chosen to go here and not somewhere else. I like it here. "Let's try to prepare something that can really impress someone and post it when we feel that we've done everything possible. I'm not into impressing people at all, I'm just sharing. I don't want to spent countless hours and hours on my work if that's not needed at all. I don't want to be a professional artist, it's my hobby and my work reflects that. OK, it's at times beyond a hobby, but I'm not depending on the most brilliant images I can create. I'm creating comis for a broad audience. the only purpose they serve is getting a message accross, they're not pieces of art at all. Most of my audience wouldn't even notice the difference between an OK and brilliand image. I do put a lot of efford into to my comics, but they just don't need perfection. That would be a waste of time. Don't let Renderosity became a place for lame kitsch It already is, just browse through the images. But then again, I don't mind. If I did, I wouldn't come here. Each of us can do better, can work harder on its pictures before posting them. Perhaps, but girs want to have fun too (and I'm not even a girl) and just want to share for fun too! "Maybe some of you think that it is "politically correct" to post lame renders and require only "excellent" ranks and post comments dipping from hollow superlatives... I do agree that people should be more serious with their comments and often art is ignored overhere (just put in a naked woman even if it's a crap image will get you excellent ratings and lot's of comments), but I guess that's just the way the crowd is over here. I really do thing these rankings and voting business should be gotten rid of, often it doesn't mean a thing. Lets all be responsible for THE ART! Honestly, I don't think most of us are creating art at all. May the imagination & creativity be with you! I hope so, but if I need to live up to your standard, my imagination & creativity would soon die.

I agree with the crap grading system,I and many here i am sure put work into something for many hours/days/week whatever and see it as ok,or mostly incomplete.Most people are never 100% satisfied with there work anyway.As for people posting "crap" images,well there are many upon many people myself included who are learning and sincerely want input from other artists,be it crap or otherwise,but all most of us get are "excelent" ratings when we know better.So yes,the grading system is alot of B/S,and we have all seen images that we thought really sucked in these galleries,but whos gonna stop and say "dude yor work sucks,stop before someone gets hurt."Besides,this is the point of having a "community" to share our work.Inspiration comes in alot of different forms.So i say give advice if not an honest rating.After all if your not part of the solution your part of the problem!

First off, I love your work. You are very, very talented. If I had half your talent, I'd be a happy camper. I do have the desire even the imagination, but skill/talent is lacking. I don't flood the galleries, but do post occasionally. I would never post over in cgtalk. That is a pro site. I'm no pro. Rendo is a mix of all talents. A place all can feel free to post their works. One thing I do agree with is the lack of critiques. They help us grow. But then we have to have to have a tut on how to critique. Some people think saying 'this is trash' is a critique. Also some need to learn how to accept a critique. Artist with thin skins shouldn't post period. czarnyrobert you are our insperation. We need talented people like you to show us what can be done. It make us push harder. But don't slam those that can't reach your stature.

Another comment, if 90% of the artists here are "kitsch" Which 10% of us are worthy of CGtalk???? And to cermit, obviously if you looked 100% of the gallery you should be blind by now, from viewing all "kitsch" & crap. If you feel this way, why waste your time looking? I love your work Robert, but I find all of this turmoil very uninspiring. I would say as to why, but my personal & past experiences are no ones business. Then again, I'm an oddball. Off to listen to some music and get some inspiration back.

There are multiple communities online for a reason.

I do not post at sites like CGTalk precisely because they are mostly Pros sites and I really don't feel ready to go there yet. I did post a couple of time to a similar site, GFX Artist, and the comments I got there were very.... humbling :)

It is a good thing that Renderosity members do not have the same elitist attitude - it keeps the place open and hopefully, welcoming, for all sort of people who want to grow and share their work.

Sure, it comes at the price of some shallow comments or abuses of the rating system, but it is still an open place for artists and hobbyists at any level.

You really can't compare the two sites. They both serve a different purpose. Ideally, this kind of appeal is nice, but they are removed from reality. You just can't simply ask people to become better overnight. The real question is : what can we do to help everybody get better ? - Tutorials are a way. - Sharing tips or commenting on WIPs in the forum is another way - maybe we could draft some kind of charter to help people provide beteer comments and to help artists better accept constructive criticisms Any other suggestion ?

Message edited on: 03/19/2005 18:32

Agiel...you nailed the problem "maybe we could draft some kind of charter to help people provide beteer comments and to help artists better accept constructive criticisms" I very rarely post any criticism, because a lot of people are thin skinned. In addition, I hestitate to IM anyone either. I would never say your art sux(never have never will, not that type of person)...that's not good. I've left some(not even enough that cover one hand) critiques before only to be IM'd & say don't do that publically. IMHO there is no real answer. I can think of 1 example where advice has been given(not be me), but the individual refuses to listen even though they ask for it...so what is one to do? I have to be honest...this topic & HOT20 have been beaten to death, that to me it's become quite boring. In addition all this friction is quite....well at this time I can't find the PC words to describe it. I wish I could offer suggestions to aide in this debacle, but I can't, for 1 reason...you'll never get all on board :(

Do you post your art at cgi talk and let them know it's Vue? I like the idea that people can feel free to post their work here without having someone shut them down before they get started. I have absolutely no desire to check out your work because I am put off by your rude comments about other folk's hard work. Not everyone here has been using Vue for 3 years...but all are more than welcome in my opinion to post in the galleries without fear of reprisal from that such is you. Your opinion is welcome, but you make me afraid for all of the budding artists who are just getting their feet wet. That is what Renderosity is all about. Learning from those who have used a program and can point out, constructively, what they might do to make a render better. So all you folks out there who may be thinking it's not worth posting...post it with pride. You made it, and you have every right to share it. Because the day you stop is the day Renderosity falls. Marque

As stated above. BRAVO! I will add Robert does post his pics at CGtalk.

The forums seem to have a bug as far as calculating a pic's average rating. If a pic's first rating received is an "excellent", then it tends to stick on "excellent" no matter how bad any following ratings are.

It's not just this forum..it's ALL of them! I find it amazing(only word I can think of now) that so many people are concerned with ratings/HOT20.....what a drag. I barely have enough time in my day to do laundry, let alone concern myself with such issues. THIS IS SO TIRING >:( What ever happened to helping people???? Isn't that why we all here?? I know I haven't become Rip Van Winkle & fallen asleep for days/weeks etc. I mean come on people...for cripes sake......

I went over to CGTalk and took a look around. It's an incredible forum (a bit hard to navigate) but I just didn't feel comfortable there. I'm not a professional artist and I do this for the pure enjoyment of creating something that pleases me, that gives me a sense of accomplishment. Period. I hang around this forum a lot because I like the feel of it. I always learn something for there are many talented people that are here and share their knowledge - be it technique, hardware, or just inspiration. I spend a lot of time in the galleries - I comment on what I like. I've been hooked on art since my first art history class, but I'm still not sure what "art" is. I'd sure hate to try and define it. To me, that definition is a personal interpretation. This gallery may not be full of "art" by someone's definition; to me it is full of personal creations - that in and of itself is a wonderful thing. It's what brings us together as a community of softs. I'm just glad we have a place to share it.

Rosity isn't for elite uber artists, dont' even think of going there. You dont' realise this isn't about Vue, this is a place are meant to come and enjoy/share ART, and while I think most so called "Modern Art" is absolute useless drivel for fools conned by "The Emperor's CLothes"...they still have the right to enjoy it ;) Now as for the Vue forum, yes things could improve, in terms of general input, friendliness and fun, Compare Bryce forum to here. Please try and encourage POSITIVE input, not elitist views which end up causing bitterness :)

Well said. I am looking forward to owning V5I. And I will say that there are a lot of talented artists at Renderosity. Especially in the VUE community. And there are lot of future creative minds. Those bad pictures you see now, will be the beginnings of future masterpieces. And who judges what is bad artwork and what is good. If the person learning something new in the process isn't it worth it to post it. This was a good discussion though. Always interesting to see what people think. Brian

"Elitist" would be a more appropriate term to use elsewhere.....not here.

"Elitists" aren't people that render pics for the gallery when they can find some free time between doing laundry and washing the dishes.

Sure, not everyone in the galleries posts work like a "pro" -- but the vast majority of golfers don't play the game like the masters, either.

One should permit the Weekend Warriors their day in the sun.

For some of us, it's a break from the mundane. Not a way to illustrate our artistic genius.

Call it Occupational Therapy for the Under-Talented, if you like.

But I choose to call it fun.

And there is no "elitism" in that.

If someone doesn't like to play canasta, then what are they doing sitting at this table? Are they merely here to ruin the game for those of us that like to play it?

Self-defense is not an indicator of elitism in operation.

;-)

But attacking those less talented than oneself......is.

OT - I love Canasta :)....played it with my parents from way back.........trying to get some happy memories back :)

Message edited on: 03/20/2005 00:26

Enjoy your Canasta, dlk. I enjoy mine, figuratively speaking. Time to log out. So long to the wars. For now.

If you create an image and it takes you 5 minutes or 5 days, then post. If you are the best artist or not, and you want to post, then post. If you are happy to show others your images, post. If you want criticism then ask for it. I have seen too many potential great artist scared away by criticism (artists are often very fragile). MOST OF ALL ... I have seen many people become great artists as they grow and florish by the "Excellents" that they get in these galleries. Lets not scare anyone away.

I agree with Sacada.

When I first started using VUE 4 about two years ago, I posted some first pictures that (at the time), I though were fabulous. Looking at them now, they stink! But by constuctive criticism and helpfull tips left by others, as well as READING the manual, I hope I have improved. I am lucky enough to have ACTUALLY sold some poster prints of my work and I use my gallery here for show.

I have not posted in awhile, as I have been to busy to put a good picture together and also waiting on my copy V5I to incorporate some of the new features.

I feel some VUE 4 or VUE 5 users may seem intimidated by the new renders and ecosystems. They shouldn't. You can paint a good picture using two brushes or twenty. Same with software. Also, lets face it. VUE is a LANDSCAPE product first and foremost. I use models only to enhance a landscape or further it's mood. I'm not big into Poser models (except animals) as their best human models still look like barbie dolls to me. Just my opinion. No offense.

Anyone should post anything they wish in these forums. Some of the best art here I've seen never made the so called "Hot 20".

There are many good artists here, as well as beginners and those who do it for fun, and as a hobby. Sure, I would like the voting system cleaned up or done away with and I would like everyone viewing a picture to comment on it if requested to do so. Constructive criticism is always welcome, not mean sprited, or rude.

In any case, What's art to one , is junk to another. Thats to be expected. If you enjoy the picture, post it! But it does take practice and tutorials, and help to be a really good artist. And their are many good artist here who are really happy to help.

I've been going through the gallery tonight... and I really think some of your comments are beyond critiques. Time to crawl off that high horse and chill out. One comment really set me off "don't post until you're really proud of it' jeez.. I highly doubt ANYONE posts anything they aren't pleased with. You are a great artist, but think you're in a bad need of critique tut. I think it's time I gave this forum a wide berth. Gettign a little chilly here lately.

I'm a regular visitor of the SketchUp forum, and would love it if this Vue forum could be a little more like that: pros and amateurs discussing topics together and with mutual respect; a genial atmosphere, and constructive criticism where necessary. Lots and lots of tip-sharing. No rating systems and other such nonsense, obviously. As regards R'osity Vue gallery posts, most of it is a matter of taste, it seems to me. Somebody may post an image he or she finds absolutely perfect, and somebody else may still think its totally awful. Monet is generally considered a fantastic artist, yet I don't care the least bit for his work... On the other hand, though colouring, lighting, choice of subject etc. may be matters of taste, there are still such things as bad texturing, poor composition and at times just general sloppiness. Vue offers a terrific toolset that allows anyone who is prepared to really spend some time with the software (and the manual) to do these things well.

I understand CzarnyRobert. I do kitsch work because I'm not an artist, just an hobbyist.

so here is my explanations: First of all I was talking about vue gallery at renderosity not a whole site: KITSH - in my opinions its a 15 minutes render made just to post something @wabe "Oh well, how about helping people to do better? It is always easy to complain but not to participate and help - with comments critiques or answering technical questions." I was trying to post a critique comments many times but next comments stopped me from doing @dlk30341 so here are my examples of kitsh http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=909945 http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=909926 http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=911183 to compare a few excellent renders: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=511861 http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=553894 http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=907221 Generally I agree with most of your opinions but: - how can we help the community if "15 minutes renders" get excellent ranks ? - how could we improve the quality of renders if there are no any critique comments ?

Picasso a fait des toiles tout croche,mais y a qui achete pour des millions ses toiles,moi donnerai pas $5.00 pour une,y a beaucoup de personne qui ont evoluer depuis deux ans je vien sur le site

my opinion... let post everything, but the vue community must improve the criticism on comments... too many "Excellent" and "wow ! this image is outstanding !". many images would have a "needs improvements" and some suggestion word... but Scott said right : "I have seen too many potential great artist scared away by criticism (artists are often very fragile)." so, is hard make the right thing (some artist wrote me some IM very disappointed, 'coz i'have made comment with improvements words...)

Cermit, that is an interesting (and I would add, daring) comparison you are making, with these gallery links...Interestingly, though I agree that your three "excellents" all achieve far greater realism through clearly much more expert use of Vue than the three you label "kitsch", I also find that there is more artistic originality in the latter three pics than in the former. Great as the "excellent" landscapes look, they also have this generalized, technical, and rather anonymous "yet another really great landscape render" look. The three "kitsch" artists on the other hand, it seems to me, at least tried to do something different. That is not to say these pics are necessarily to my taste, and yes, technically they could obviously have been a lot better, but still. Again a matter of taste, it seems: what do you like to see Vue used for? To me, the effort to create a landscape that is indistinguishable from a photograph in any travel agency brochure seems somewhat self-defeating - a bit like people who spend months mastering a complex 3d modeling app, and then spend months more to create a photorealistic render of their mobile phone. I say, just take a picture of it and be done with it! - But that's just my opinion.

czarnyrobert, you know what bothers me most about your post? You hardly ever participate in this forum, you hardly ever show us the way how to get better in our creations. Also you just 'dump' this thing on us and then dissappear again. I do find this a typical elite behaviour. In our country the elite does the same. They hardly participate in society, yet dump all of their ideas and rules on us, expecting us to follow their ways. If you would be one of us, guess you'd never even started the thread in the way you did. I do still admire your work and I used to look up to you. I still admire your work it's great, but I'm not looking up to you anymore. All of this may sound harsh, but clearly they way you want things to be just isn't the way people are over here. I'm not trying to be nasty or somethingm but I think perhaps this place isn't the right place for you at all.

@aeilkema you dont know what are you talking about !!!! czarnyrobert is one of this artists which share almost all knowledge he has..He wrote several tutorials http://www.renderosity.com/tut.ez?Form.ViewPages=703 http://www.graphique3d.republika.pl/ and always explains how he made a render under ALL HIS IMAGES.

But he hardly participates here in the forums..... helping out people here.

Just read through the posts here, quite a number of people are not familiar with his tutorials and his help, since it's not done here in the forums. and always explains how he made a render under ALL HIS IMAGES. I hardly call that an explanation at least not something I'm able to with much. I do about the same with some my images, but I don't think any really learns from that.

Message edited on: 03/20/2005 11:07

Dear aeilkema, when I started my adventure with Vue - all I had was a free copy of Vue 2 - no manual, no internet, no forum, no tutorials to help me - just me and Vue 2 on my computer - Celeron 600, 128 MB ram. My first picture was very simple: http://www.vvveronika.republika.pl/GALERIA3D/GALERIA/G1/1.jpg It last for about 3 moths before I learned Vue to the level that enabled me to try to bother other people with my pictures - then I started posting (from my friends computer who had internet) - this was my firs post: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=197522&Start=37&Artist=czarnyrobert&ByArtist=Yes I was still learning on my own, and three months later, I could produce my first picture I consider really good - still on Celeron 600Mhz...: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=253156&Start=37&Artist=czarnyrobert&ByArtist=Yes I DID NOT REQUIRED from anyone to teach me Vue, I did not require from anyone to give my excellent ranks just because "I was so kind to post something here". For me it was a privilege if someone was loosing his time to look on my picture and even more if he written his opinion about it. Especially if it pointed out my mistakes - so I could avoid them next time. Those days the average artistic level of Renderosity was much higher - maybe this was the reason why posting each new picture was a challenge for me - and still it is. I wanted to offer something special for my viewers and did not require anything from them - you seem to require from your viewers confirmation how "excellent" you are - you seems to require from others to teach you Vue - but you are doing nothing to really improve... This is the difference... Everybody knows that confirmation policy was a huge failure that was just producing presumptuous lamers requiring adoration for NOTHING - you can not progress if you don't get realistic feedback telling you how good is what you are doing. You are not happy that there is no more tutorials made by me - just tell me have you ever tried to use my lighting techniques described in tutorial on my website? I doubt - I can't see it on your renders. Maybe have you tried to build terrains as I described in my tutorial posted on Renderosity? No... so don't expect more before you learn those basics elements... May creativity be with you!

I didn't say at all that wasn't happy your tutorials, I wasn't refering to your tutorials at all, perhaps you should re-read my post again. Here's my first image created in Vue, I started last year with Vue 4.... http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=704027&Start=10&Artist=aeilkema&ByArtist=Yes The only pic you've commented on was the legions one and that one is just one of my 'just for fun renders' It doesn't need perfection, I'm just playing with Vue 5 a little. But then according to you I shouldn't post such images anyway. just tell me have you ever tried to use my lighting techniques described in tutorial on my website? I doubt - I can't see it on your renders. Who says I want to use you lighting techniques at all? Sounds like I'm not allowed to have my own style anymore..... You may have noticed that one of my images was choosen as E-On's pick of the day. That counts much more for me then you putting down my images (I doubt you've taken the time to go through all of them, I'm thinking you base your conclusion on the last few, which aren't the best at all, but just fun stuff). If E-On has chosen to showcase my work, I don't think I'm that hopeless as you make me out to be.....

ok Cermit. What is art, what is kitch. One of the very popular artists: Jeff Koons http://www.artnet.de/ag/fineartthumbnails.asp?aid=9741 Be aware, there could be pornographic images under the images. Another one - Andy Warhol, a Polish artist. Especially his piss pictures - not more than 15 minutes to create i think (otherwise i would be very surprised). Ok, next one, a German painter, Carl Spitzweg http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/s/spitzweg/index.html Oh well. Another one: Caspar David Friedrichs http://www.artprints-on-demand.co.uk/noframes/friedrich/thumbs.htm More? Ok. Joseph Boys to name a more modern one. His fat corners probably didn't took more than 15 minutes to make. You can like the above artists or not but one thing is clear. The art scene does see them as big artists. How long someone works on an image has absolutely nothing to do with art or not. Absolutely nothing. It has to do with capabilities, yes. But that is another issue. Your link list Cermit. Without checking it i can say it shows that there are cliques. As it is in every group bigger than two. Even in the supergroup Cgtalk i am sure there are. What does this tell us? Nothing. Like it or not, it is natural and unavoidable. I agree, that people should try to make images as good as they can. But maybe there are some that cannot do better. They are not allowed to post here it seems. Are you the one that decide who is allowed and who not? I only can hope i am. A last point. I am sure there are cultural differences as well. I don't know about Poland but here in Germany i have the feeling that often only bad critics are honest ones - a lot people think. In other countries it is different so that words can easily be wrongly interpretated.

Robert - if you look at your first pictures, couldn't they be qualified as Kistch as well ? (especially the first one). Remember that people are learning Vue at different paces. Some have the time/energy/talent to progress quickly, some are just posting images that they are happy with, without thinking more about lighting or composition. There is nothing wrong with that. Nobody requires 'excellent' comments. Nobody is forcing you to comment or not. And if some people do, simply ignore them. I can garantie you the majority of people posting here do not.

I'm tired with this thread. I'm disapointed to be in cermit's link list... I have never asked fot that ... I'm sad to read words like : ' Your link list Cermit. Without checking it i can say it shows that there are cliques.' I don't want to be members of a clique... if my understanding of english is good enough to translate it correctly .. specialy coming from wabe ... I have a real feeling of friendship for you Walther :-) but it's nonsense to speak about 'cultural differences'. And what about ' To me, the effort to create a landscape that is indistinguishable from a photograph in any travel agency brochure seems somewhat self-defeating ' Ok ... since months I have not allowed users to rate my pictures because I think it's a nonsense... no meaning Since this thread I will reconsider the 'Allow comments' .... May be soon I will stop post here ... :-(

OK! For me it does not matter at all - put excellent ranks to all pictures you want, tell their authors how ~~MAGICAL~~ are they beach scenes with dears and large breasted vixens fighting dragons - it won't change a lot for me - now I am still here - because I used to this site - but for inspiration I have to look elsewhere. As I said initially, I am aware that my appeal and all this discussion won't change a lot - Renderosity will be more and more amateur site - and there will be here only a couple artists posting valuable works - other will go elsewhere. This is not my problem, this is not the problem of Renderosity owners (as they make money on people selling mainly amateur quality poser stuff) - just newbies will have less opportunities to compare their first renders with something that has some artistic value - as there will be none here. Just ask yourself why CGTalk artists don't post here...

Why make such a big deal about it if it doesn'tmatter at all ? CGTalk artists don't post here because they are already posting over there maybe ? Face it - Renderosity IS an amateur site. That is why I like it here. If it became another of these elitist 'pro' sites, I would have to move somewhere else.

@pmermino I have never thought that listing one of your renders as a example of a excellent and artistic work could dissapoint you...I am sorry for that...I can delete the link if you wish

"Face it - Renderosity IS an amateur site. That is why I like it here. If it became another of these elitist 'pro' sites, I would have to move somewhere else." I think most of us would go somewhere else. Robert, I just went over too your site and read up on the creation of Silent Spring. It took you more then 7 days to create the scene, perhaps even more. Then 37 hours to render the scene. I'm an amateur 3D user (who does some proffesional projects once in a while, mainly comic related), got a family, a daytime job, I'm chronically ill (so at times I can't even be at my job or spent time on projects), got one decent computer (and a very old one running win98) and you expect me to climb up to your level. I don't have seven days time for one image most of my projects need over 50 images, it would take me a year or more to finish one project. I can not afford spending 37hrs on a render, again that's 77 days. Since Vue has the terrible habit of locking up a pc when rendering, I would need to buy a second pc for renders only..... Can't even afford V5I, so let alone a second pc. Most of us here are like that (except for being chronically ill, I do not wish that to happen to anyone, not even my worst enemy, if I would have one), so please forgive me if I do not have the abilty and desire to climb up to your level or higher. I do think this thread has run it's course and I'm not going to add more to it then this small statement: I'll hope you'll be happy now that you can play with the big boys..... just do remember that the big boys don't come and play with us and they don't want most of us to play with them either. Please allow each of us to have his/her own playground and don't try to create one big playground. That would really take all of the fun out of are little games and we would be bored watching the big boys play and not being allowed to play too, since they wouldn't allow us to play with them anyway.

If you are doing this for the fun of it, or for the love of it -- then please share with us. As for the snobs....I'll leave them to their childishness. It's possible that one might actually be the best artist in the galleries. Congratulations. Without a little humilitiy sprinkled into the mixture, others will tend to regard you as little more than a pretty vacuum. The best technically correct art in the world is nothing without heart. And a piece of paper scribbled on by a three-year-old can be ART for someone. Take your elitism, and file it appropriately.

There is an elephant in India that paints with its trunk. Just blobs of paint smeared all over a canvas. Some of this elephants work is in a few galleries. These pics sell for around 1000 - 10K. A bit of perspective ;)

On most other boards I have posted on they have a very simple but effective system.
Within the title of your art you also put your required level of critique ie:
If you only want Gentle Critique you type title -GC
If you want Critique but not harsh critiscism: title - C
If you want Hard Critique put title - HC

I would suggest get rid of the 'ranking' system - it is irrelevant.

"There is an elephant in India that paints with its trunk. Just blobs of paint smeared all over a canvas. Some of this elephants work is in a few galleries. These pics sell for around 1000 - 10K." dlk30341, couldn't you have told me that 2 days earlier? I took my kids to the ZOO on Friday. If had know this then I would have stuck one of the elephants in my backpack. They had 3 already, so I guess they could miss one, and I can use one for sure 3-) Message edited on: 03/20/2005 16:17

LOL - If I'm not mistaken...can't remember...I think there is one here in the US, that paints...but of course no where no as good as the one in India.....go figure :) There was a Discovery Special several years back...regarding amazing animal talents.

aeilema - As to post #45, I couldn't agree with you more. Thank you for saying it so well.