in ref. to: http://market.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2674155 Okay folks... this has got me torqued a bit. If you're going to jump into some hurt-feelinged person's gallery and make arguments for Poser (or whatever), please, please at least use some critical reasoning and logic in your replies. Take for instance this reply: http://comments.deviantart.com/1/43564333/362009031 While incomplete, it is well reasoned, thought-out, and a man can certainly respect what the person has to say. The first response by some obvious troll was crap, but the other (and many like it) were damned solid, and damned true. I hope the reasons why will become clear as you read along... So, I scroll down to the 2nd page of the comments, and find... the same tired arguments that should've been cast off eons ago (and as someone guilty of using them myself long ago, I should know). Okay, let's go through some of these arguments, shall we? (quotations taken from the deviant art thread). First off, Poser isn't a fscking camera, it is an application. Poser art is NOT photography. The photography allegories don't wash. As a guy who has seriously delved into photography, I've come to appreciate the differences, and buddy, they are VAST. Photography is the art of the tangible, of reality. It is a moment in time. The very nature of photography is based on three things performed against a pre-existing tangible subject or event found within the scope of reality to produce art: composition, lighting, and color. In photography, you are taking something that exists and committing it to either film or pixel, in the hopes that the story you tell with it will last orders of magnitude longer than the short moment in which it was composed. Sometimes it is distorted (e.g. fashion photography), but is still grounded in either manipulating or fixing the fleeting reality into the permanent. Poser (and by extension 3D/CG art) is an expression of creativity, since its components are definitely not tangible or real. It is a test of how much creativity and imagination you have. Slap Vicky in a temple and stick a sword in her hand? Unless you have some damned good composition and lighting skills, it's BORING! it's CRAP! Please, drill that through your heads. If you want sterling examples of utter crap, large swaths of my gallery (on ANY site) await you. Now, secondly, let's dwell on that creativity angle, shall we? Back before 2002-2003, before Poserdom blew up into this merchant-centric thing we behold today, the CG world was (only somewhat, but still) okay with Poser, because it actually took some skill to get all the elements you needed together just to create a render that didn't look all plastic and default-looking. It took time and patience to render something that didn't turn out like crap. Creating something unique actually required some skill at hacking text files, using magnets, and actually pushing a program beyond what it was originally meant to do. People actually blended many programs together to create the final result (and those poor bastards using Bryce had to be the most patient of all if they wanted something of any decent-sized resolution). A lot of the best artists in Poserdom stand out because they took the meagre tools they had back then and did some damned fantastic things with them. They (--pay attention closely now--) they invested their own imaginations and creativity into their results. Much of what I see today, I can pretty much name which packages were bought(or P2P'd), and which plugins or add-ons were used to produce which effects. It's all plopped down and called "art", and Heaven help the real artists (whether they use Poser or not) out there who sigh at the sight of an obvious Poser churn-out and complain... it isn't "discrimination", it's the reasoned assumption made from enduring a crushing metric ton of mostly poser-generated dreck that people have (yes) polluted the better art sites with. Let's face it folks - the only thing that keeps the various Poser renders from being completely homogenous nowadays is the sheer variety of pre-built packages out there, and even then it looks to be a losing fight. Sure - there are a few who can make some damned fine artowrk out of just Poser and a few other bits of tools here and there - but they are only a mere fraction... they are the exception, not the rule. And right now, the rule in most artists' eyes is this: Poser = Crap. Why? Well, it's simple: In most CG communities, a budding CG artist will tweak the unholy hell out of his or her work, spending days or weeks making sure that everything is as perfect as possible (composition, mesh, lighting, textures, shadows, etc) before even daring to display it. They will take overwhelming care to detail, and will openly explain what they did to make it, and then learn from solicited opinions. They do not plop a couple of canned elements into a scene, chuck on some clothing (maybe), call it by some lofty name, and then post it two hours after "New Scene" and do the digital equaivalent of "...look ma, I'm a frickin' ARTIST now! LOVE ME! LOVE ME111!!!!!11!!!" Seen from that angle, can you understand now why it is that so many in the CG art community have a distaste for Poser-only results? It's like some seven-year-old kid busting into an art competition with a glued-together macaroni + glitter + A4 lash-up, and demanding equal respect among the entries. Trust me - the grown-ups are not amused. Now if you took that macaroni and glitter and built it into a 10-foot tall sculpture of fine detail that actually told a story? Okay... that would get some attention and respect. But that ain't what's coming out of most Poser installs, folks. You want to impress folks now (esp. in the larger community)? Then get off your butts and stretch your minds. Do something that shows you've grown a bit. Do something that shows you're not just playing with a digital barbie-doll set. Here's a few bits and tips, in no particular order, to get the majority of you started for anything that you might someday want to point at and call art: * Get your own backgrounds - with your own camera. Or with Photoshop - your own work, in other words. * Never use a light set... EVER! Put your own lights in there. If you're going to be playing with IBL, then build your own photographs or light maps, instead of the handful that everybody else seems to rely on. Any basic lighting tutorial (in ANY medium) is well worth reading, but the vast majority of stuff in this joint looks as if no one has ever read one. * Never buy a pose set... why? Because THE VERY NAME OF THE PROGRAM -- "POSER" -- SHOULD CLUE YOU IN THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO! If you must, use only partial poses as a starting point. Take DAZ|Studio's PowerPose plugin (it't free and comes with the proggy) and give it a bang-around. If you're going to pose anything, at least do me one favor: Please think about what that character is doing, what it is 'feeling' at the moment, and may be about to do - and take every body part into consideration, going over each one. Especially the face and eyes, please. * as a corollary of the above - you have dials for moving nearly every frickin' body part [i]including the eyes[/i]... would you do us all a favor and put more than just a couple of them to use? * ...will you do us all a favor and give some thought to composition, and not just of the "she'll be in this canned pose floating four inches off the floor" kind? Try to figure out WTF kind of story you're trying to tell before you put it together. Use a pencil and a sketch pad and use stick figures to explain it on paper to yourself if you can't draw. * make your own skin texture sometime. See how it turns out. No, seriously... try it sometime. I realize that half the merchants in here can't even do that without buying/swiping someone else's 'resource kit', but this'll be your golden opportunity to shine, and to do something useful. * Okay, if that was too tough, then how about making your own clothing textures? Don't even bother using someone else's. While you're at it, make your own transparency maps for them, and turn what you've got into whole different clothing... the things are damned easy to make, y'know? ...someday, you might even go through life without ever having the humiliation of buying a 'texture pack' again. * make your own unique character from a base figure, without resorting to buying someone else's and then just tweaking a few dials. Please. For me? * get a free modelling program (Wings ferinstance, or Amapi), and build your own set, your own props. It doesn't require a degree in graphic arts to build a few primitives tweaked out to resemble whatever it is you're trying to make. Once you've mastered that, get some clothing together, and make a bit. This way you don't have to go out and buy a bit of clothing and the 48 zillion add-on texture kits for it just to try to stand out. * Make your human-looking figures... umm, human. Enlarge Vicki 3's head a bit, shrink the tits, and for the love of Pete make 'em sag if she's not 15 yrs old or siliconed-up. And giver her a few pounds, or at least a set of love handles. And by the way, why do the vast majority of female figures in this joint have lips that look like an inflamed horse's anus? Unless you live on Planet ChapStick, human lips don't look like that! * Tell a story with the thing, even if it's a vague one. Just sticking a wood-elf into a bunch of trees in a dramatic sword-swinging pose ain't going to mean jack sh!t. If the figure is staring dead-on at the viewer and it ain't a pornographic render, at least try and show the viewer WHY with the rest of the scene elements. Make the viewer's eyes do some work in a good way, not by forcing them to jack around randomly in a vain attempt to discover WTF is going on in the image... Finally, Poser can be a movie camera of sorts (esp. when arguing about pre-made sets and props, vs. home-built, etc), but keep this in mind: For a movie to not be a total piece of shite that is best ignored, it has to tell a story. If you're going to compare Poser to a movie camera, at least have the sense to know what a movie camera is used for. Okay, that should hold ye, at least for now. Just do me one favor, if nothing else. Please? Pretty Please? In the future, if you're going to jump at someone for dissing poser (whether they really are or not), at least take the time to see their side of the story, and try to understand WHY there's so much frustration out there. And if you're going to argue in favor of it, at least show some intelligence and do so with reasoning, not just lash blindly out at anyone and everyone who expresses exasperation at their art site being flooded with purile insta-rendered results. Thx muchly in advance, /P

dang..came off better than I thought..;) 
Don't feel guilty about much of the above, because I don't know how to use light sets. Do use Pose sets for getting in the ballpark. Model my backgrounds (if I could get around the Poser 'melted buttah effect', I'd actually import them..;)

Bryce backgrounds aren't that hard, unless you go for volumetric textures (that's not hard either, just takes more patience than most folks have..;)

Try to get things mixed up in terms of clothing, accessories, etc., but half the battle is remembering what the shoes are called, what the pants are called, what the hair is called (you see where it's going..;) still have to load those database and Poser item search programs..;)

Frankly, Bryce renders take so long, I usually make up the story while I'm rendering. It just goes down as prose..;)

looks like ignorance has freed me from a good thrashing..;)

Nice rant! :0)

Coherent and reasoned...

Klutz :0)

I am bookmarking this, or printing it out and putting it on my bulletin board.  One of the best things I have ever read.

This actually makes me feel really good (instead of like a complete chump) for trying to paint my own textures and model my own clothing and props.  Granted, I am using some packaged stuff I purchased, but then I'm sitting down and tweaking the holy hell out of it.  And it takes me forever ... and now I feel absolutely wonderful for putting in the effort because ...

someone with a brain appreciates it.

Makes it worth every second of the time it took.

First off, Poser isn't a fscking camera, it is an application.

An analogy is a comparison between two different things, in order to highlight some form of similarity.

In an effort to express what poser is, the best analogy I have found is that it is like virtual photography. This allows me to express the function of poser in a way that most people can grasp.

I do find it interesting that you passionately disparage the comparison of poser to photography then conclude by saying “Poser can be a movie camera of sorts”.

By your implied definition of “art” this rant does not appear to be aimed at me, unfortunately, those who should read it are likely people who do not read the forums.

Another unfortunate fact; “real artists” cannot control what other do with their chosen medium.

And what with Wings3d, Blender and anim8tor being free, there is really no excuse for not at lest giving it a try. (for those interested, in the wings3d forum, if you click on the banner at the top of the page it will take you to the site where you download wings3d).

Unless you have that python set by Philc (I forget the name) Poser doesn't come with a "Make Art" button, I mean you can't just click a few buttons & have everything in place to make a masterpiece like the "airheads" on DubiousArt seem to think.

Even today you have to work at it to get anything out of poser without it looking like plastic, just because the available addons are looking better doesn't make Poser any easier to use, it hasn't actually changed much at all since I started using it with V1.

I feel ashamed and belittled.

I do EVERYTHING that Penguinisto has listed.

Guess I must not be a good POSER Consu...err, Artist, then,  :-(

Heck, I even just started a thread suggesting that Vicky might be a tiny little bit ...gasp...unrealistic.
(Which promptly made some folks go ballistic. LOL)

Oh my.

And I not only use WINGS, I ALSO have Silo and just started using Z-Brush.

And there is that character I´m tweaking and modifying for almost a year now, you know.
Several dozend magnets and even custom made expression morphs, just to get it right.

i mean, it really started quite innocently with a morph here and a morph there. And all of a sudden I wanted to do MY OWN STUFF.

Dam´ Dr Geep and his tutorials.  :-(

Looks I better start saving my pennies to buy MAX and become ONE OF TEH BIG BOYS.

I´m really REALLY sorry to dissapoint you all, my fellow Poser comrades.

Please think kindly of me when you buy your next premade pose pack.

;-)

Stahlratte

Why do so many people working with higher end apps find it so difficult to comprehend that Poser and D/S are used by a wide variety of users with very differing levels of skill and intent. The apps are cheap (relatively) which means that just about anyone with enough money to have a good weekend on the town can instead afford to buy into a 3d hobby and make pictures - and have some fun. At the same time there are many using Poser who do model and tweak meshes, create unique textures and spend long hours creating incredibly detailed and accomplished images with impressive narratives.
This pervading attitude that Poser=crap says to me one thing only - that those who ascribe to that view are more concerned with disrespecting people using a different set of tools rather than having the confidence to fully appraise their own accomplishments (or lack of) with their own toolsets. This IMO is a lazy and immature approach, indicative of creative insecurity and certainly won't make anyone more accomplished in their chosen field of study.
While I find many of the original poster's points of advice generally valid and useful the tone and overiding sentiment is, I'm sure to many, patronising and derogatory.
Is it so hard to accept that some just want to enjoy using Poser as a hobby?
Is it so hard to accept that others can use the same app to create professional and stunning visual work?
Why this need to tell others what to do?

I can understand all kinds of frustrations, but surely those that do everything from modelling to rendering can judge their work on those merits without having to resort to disrespecting Poser users.

if 3D snobs have concluded that poser is crap, I tend to agree their feelings are misplaced. they should blame the players, not the game. the software is now capable of excellent renders rivalling apps costing 10X as much. whilst most of the poser renders in the gallery here are not worth looking at IMVHO, this is due to user error:

• failure to apply correct lighting
• failure to apply correct shadows
• failure to fix bad joint bending
• failure to use backgrounds or props correctly
• failure to adjust facial expression
• failure to read the manual
• failure to read tutorials

with the next generation of models, the joint problem may be eliminated, and the lighting and shadows problems may be reduced in P7, but the other stuff is still gonna be a problem.

*'they should blame the players, not the game.'

*I don't see the point in doing this even. What does it matter if many just load up a figure and press render. Who does that hurt?
There are plenty who do use all of the features in Poser to their fullest potential who can attest to it's validity (if that is required) as a 3d figure and scene renderer.

Terrific rant - something I need to read every day, just to convince myself that I might, one day, just maybe produce something worthwhile. At least I do some of that stuff (got a weakness for pose packs, but otherwise...).

Seriously, this is a good, reasoned argument IMO.

Art is art. Who cares what you use to achieve the final result. The end result is still the same.... freaking art!

Carodan,

your right, and I completely agree with you.

While I guess I fit into that "Poser Power User" scheme that Pengo describes, I still think that using Poser just for fun is a valid reason.

I think the REAL reason why most "professionals" hate Poser is....

....they really hate having the same hobby as their mom.

;-)

I mean, if you were a l33t m4x u$3r, would you want to discuss Vicky´s shoulder problems with your mom ?
Or help her with the Poser lights ?

All of the sudden the cool job at Pixxar you´re dreaming of doesn´t seem to be quite as cool, does it ?

First you pay dearly for a membership to that exclusive CGI-Artist club, (Or at least show your h4ck3r skills by installing that warezd copy of Max), only to find that all the riffraff has sneaked in through the kitchen door ?

And instead of working hard and improving their SKILLZ, those pesky Poser users  just party all day long and have a generally good time ?

OF COURSE THEY ARE PSSD ! LOLZ !

So what ?

Sticks and stones I say...

I enjoy my poser and my mostly lowbrow "art", and don´t mind all the black velvet elvis...errr, Poser art pictures in the galleries.
If people have fun doing them, let them I say.
If people can´t be bothered to actually POSE a character, I think it´s sad, but it´s not my money they spend for pose sets.

But I also know that most people at CG-Talk DO have excellent skills and I wouldn´t dare posting anything I´ve made unless I´m sure it´d be up to the expected standard.

Stahlratte

Well I simply have to disogree with just about everything MR. Penguinisto said.  Why?  Here´s my reasoning:

First off, art shouldn´t be measured in time and effort.  I know that CG artists take a LOT of time perfecting their images and sometime the results are amazing.  But unless you have some experience in CG art, they can seem extremely dull.  

If you browse the Maya or Max galleries most of the images are WIP´s or single objects.  I´d rather see another image of Vicky in a temple then another image of a wineglass on a wooden table, no matter how long it took to model it!

As for the helpful tips that Penguinisto** **suggested, I really find it annoying when people include words like "Never do that..." when talking about art.  Although it can be good to restrict yourself to progress or try something new, you shouldn't have it as a rule not to do or use something.
If you want to impress someone (and I´m not talking ONLY about the almighty CG artists), take time and pride in what you do.  

You see, alot of us aren´t doing images to show off to other artists.  We´re doing it for our own amusement.  I don´t care if anyone can do what I do better in a more advanced application.  It doesn´t make him better then me or a better artist.

I´m gonna stop ranting about this now as my brain´s starting to hurt.

Cheers, Vestmann

"Photography is the art of the tangible, of reality. It is a moment in time"

Oh really? How about still life’s? How about portraiture? Define "tangible." Is a sunset tangible? Is a rainbow tangible?

And photography IS NOT ART. You take a device (camera) point it at something tangible that you did not create and push a button. Granted, you can manipulate the light, or tweak the depth of field to get a little blur, but you DID NOT CREATE anything. You took a picture. A monkey could walk up right behind you and press the button and get the same result.

Practice what you preach. Grab a brush, some paints, stretch your own canvas, learn some color theory and paint "a moment in time," then you created something that was not there. Or, let's see the Poser character that you created.

And if people here enjoy rendering without having built their own props and characters and all, then let them enjoy it. Just because you bought an automatic and took a photography class at city college, doesn't give you the right to make people feel bad about something they enjoy.

Bottom line, if someone can stack toilets and call it art, then so the simplest of renders.

Ah, refreshing! Truth that is. Penguinisto, this rant provides a timely wake-up call to me. I have been nearing the event horizon! I used to make nearly all my own content. However, having joined the Platinum Club about six months ago to get Hexagon for cheap, I've found myself slowly (lazily) sinking into the abyss of $2 prepared content. Sure there is a time and place for bought stuff. For example, under a tight deadline for a commercial job, my client couldn't care less where the clothes or poses come from, as long as the message and the copyright are both clear. But to post that same crap as art, on an art site... 8-/ Yes, art is art, but I hold a higher personal standard of what art is than what I've been living up to recently. Anyway, thanks Peng for the meaningful rant - all is good. Now, off to CREATE something...anything.

ahem

As a reminder, debating the issue is fine.  Let's not see this thread de-evolve into a thread full of personal attacks, pretty please ;)

Jeni

Penguinisto, That was an awesome rant and ITA with you.

Well, in my opinion (and that’s all it is), Poser is just an application or tool, just like anything else. It is neither bad or nor good. I think there is an inherent fallacy in linking the mode or method of creation with any sort of artistic merit, as a lot of these kinds of arguments seem to say to me.

** A creative artist can make good art in any medium; true art transcends the medium used to create it.**

To me, arguing if Poser art is “real” art or not vs another 3D package (or if something that is hand drawn is more valid artistically than a photograph) is missing the whole point. How something was made doesn’t make it art. If a piece (in whatever medium) speaks to you, then its art.

I think, Penguinisto, you are right to encourage creativity in composition, but I think you’re confusing the technical with the artistic. If everything has to be “originally” created  in order for it to be valid; then according to that logic why should anyone even bother with using any pre-made content (including base figures) at all? Where would it end or begin?

If someone makes an interesting work, I don’t really care if I can pick out where everything came from or how it was created if it speaks to me.

** As a way of analogy, would you enjoy a meal at a fine restaurant any more or less if you had known that the chef had personally grown all the ingredients? If the point is to get a good meal; why would it matter? Would a song be any more or less enjoyable if you learned that the musician took 10 minutes to write it and used a band and a producer, or took 10 years to compose it and played every instrument themselves? Again, if the merits of the piece are in the end result, who cares about the process of getting there?**

Years ago I worked for some time in a photostudio where they made illustrations for dutch interiormagazines. As I remembered, the way they they set up the scene, reminded me a lot like I set up Poser-scenes today. They strolled around the country to pic up all kinds of furniture, seats, tables, lamps, fabrics you name it, and they built a decor with a lot of tricks to make it look like a real diningroom, kitchen, bathroom whatever. They put up lights and spots of different color and shapes. Set camera positions, lenses and filters. And sometimes they used a model, discussed with him or her what kind of clothes to wear, where how to sit or stand. I've seen the results and if you didn't knew it you couldn't see that is was a studio picture. And I think the same analogy goes for movie or television makers and even sometimes glamour-photography (not everything) As you see the similarity with poser is obvious.

This similarity was one the reasons why I once compaired in an other thread Poser with photography, I think that to be more specific: I had to say: Studiophotography. If you take photography in common, is much more extended: fashionphotography, pressphotography, documentaries and so on and  that, my dear friends, you cannot compare with poser.
 
But it's same as with poser, everyone can use a camera but it takes years to get a silver one.

My initial response was to agree with Penginisto, but then I began to disagree (in part).

I am glad I waited before responding.

It boils down to this (at least for me). With POSER the application, there is a ease of use that, Joe or Jane Noobie (Hiya folks!) can click to load up a model, click for a MAT, click for a Set/Prop/Lights and click for a render and be very proud of that. Heck, DAZ|Studio is free and so are base Mike/Vicky and Aiko3.

The same application can be used by those who have some training in some other artistic medium and find that same ease of use to quickly get to point B or C faster than if they did it the "old-fashioned" way.

Back in the day (when the ponies were pink, everyone knew your name and sharing was acutally caring [and encouraged]) the Poser Community was small. So the bar would be raised every so often. Folks were encouraged to try and raise the bar for themselves. As Penuinisto noted the shift occoured 2002-2003 when the great wave of Commercialism struck. It was a good time to be had for sure (for some). Loads of new users to Poser were coming in and if you could make a buck, no prob. But the sense of a small community was somewhat lost. We now have these neighborhoods in PoserVille. The controversy of the polling for Best/Top 20 artists where now your friends come in a go "W00T! AWESOME RENDER" only because you did the same for them. The community fractured.  Note I am not blaming those who were able to go pro. As communities grow and change so do their identies.

With the rise of the many packages, you find that its easier to use than to tweak. The cream of the artists products have risen to the top, alas, there are too few of these and with this large base of users, those are the sets/packages/clothing models that are going to be used. Unless you can make a texture pack (or learned how to putz around in the Mateials Room) to change colors so your canned pose of Character X wearing popular Clothing Y doesn't quite look the same as the others ("Chartruese?? Where the heck did you get Chartruese from? That's Clothing Y?? It looks so different! In Chartruese!")

The learning curve (not so much the expense curve with Wings/Blender/$1.99 Hexagon  et al.,) is what will hold some back. Some will take the plunge.

Is the future financial reward (I wont be able to get that Porsche but, I can buy so-and-so's stuff 'til I can do it on my own!") the reason why they will jump in the pool?

Is it the ability to "get propX made because, noone has the TIME to do it for me, and it will be expensive to have commisioned"? the reason?

Is it ego? "I just know that I can get my next render to look as good as so-and-so's. Lemme examine how they did that?" (Seems like back in the day of the pink poines you could ask and actually find out how it was done!)

There are some who due to time, or just contentment be willing to point, click and render!

Did you all see the November issue of 2DArtist? Check out pages 56-57 starting on p56 under the subhead References. 

Egad! This featured artist uses Daz|Studio as a reference tool! Note the reasons for possibly doing this!!!

So dlfurman. All of that typing for what? 
Understand this: The Poser landscape is now vast and there are going to be ALL KINDS OF USERS using this program. There are going to be folks who are going to step up their game. There are going to be follks who are content where they are. There are going to folks in between. We have to just deal with it. And if you personally decide that you want to move to a new PoserVille neighborhood, power and ability to ya!  Just as in the non-electronic artistic media, the debate over what is art has raged it will too, rage here. You may have to invest a little more $$$ to get that help that used to be available free, you may have to check out those free tutorials and play with them beyond what is given. But you here to stay.

Welcome to PoserVille!

PS: Maybe we should go and tell that guy who spend $K's on a high end 3D package learning to do a 3d still life that they suck and should try non-organic forms instead.

Nah!  I have "Art" to do ! ;)

'I think the REAL reason why most "professionals" hate Poser is....

....they really hate having the same hobby as their mom.'

:lol:  'Mom, I need help with a poke-through problem' :lol:

I would like to point out that I am the person who used the Photography analogy on the Deviant art site.

I stand by my analogy.

"As a guy who has seriously delved into photography, I've come to appreciate the differences, and buddy, they are VAST."

I'm not going to get into a p*ssing contest with you, but I not only have worked as a pro photographer for more than a decade, I am also a professional Film and Television Editor and graphic artist.  When I say that Poser is akin to a Camera I know what I am speaking of.

In the conclusion of the rant, I can see you do too.

That said, I agree with many of your fine points.

Everyone can benefit from trying their hands at modelling, texturing and lighting.  Everyone can benefit from learning aobut composition and the finer nuances of the technical options in their software.

I've seen exceptional art from people who have just picked up the program and don't know squat about IBL, AO, Depth of Field, Volumetrics and so.  They just have a vision and using whatever default freebies and included props they create something that says something.

I've seen V3 used in brilliant POV Ray and Maya scenes where the artists took the time to sculpt every last building, vehicle, stick of furniture and hand paint every texture, yet s/he hasn't applied one morph or changed one thing about the default V3.

The high and mighty opinion that art can only be created by an elite group of people who have some archane know-how is a bunch of utter crap.

Art is part of the human condition and is something that should be accessible to everyone.

Instead of wandering around insulting people we should be trying to help people achieve their visions, communicate their passions and create their art.

I've seen a lot of photography that I would never qualify as art.  I've seen a  lot of Poserwork, 3D Studio Max work, ink drawings and so on that I would never qualify as art.  But in the end, my opinion does not make the other person's effort any less valid.  

In the end if someone doesn't like a piece, they are free to not look at it.

ThrommArcadia, thank you for that. You said all of the things I wanted to but was too steamed to get out the first time around... (got deleted. blush). I was another one in the other thread making the photo analogy and I too stand by it. If I weren't so irritated by the preachy manner of the first post I might have been able to explain myself better. I find it most galling that people find it so easy to make vast and grossly exaggerated claims about what crap Poser art is, in the face of Photography or other kinds of art. It is even more annoying when the persons doing the ranting do not appear to be practicing what they preach (but I won't go there because i don't want to get slapped by Karen again). Most of those "10 commandments of art" sounding statements above could be applied to ANY art form, not just poser. Come on, you think the first thing the guys who got the first cameras did was that much better? There are tons of nudie pictures in those old tin pictures from the olden days. Heck, even my grandpa, amateur photographer that he was had a few risque pictures of my grandma from before my mom was born. They are pretty much run of the mill "she might as well have been in a temple with a sword in her hand" sorts of pictures. But for him they were art and they had meaning. I don't think it is FAIR to say that just because somebody uses some pre-made models or backgrounds that they don't know what the blazes they are doing and saying it that way makes it sound flat out insulting to the poser community as a whole. How many people actually make ALL their own stuff for poser anymore? And what's more, why should they? And who is to say they are less of an artist if they don't create every little thing by hand? Many of the points in the first post were valid, it is such a shame that they had to be pushed out in such an insulting manner...

Great rant.  I agree with some, and disagree with other points.  Pushing yourself creatively is a good thing, no matter who says it.  I got WIngs3d, shortly after getting poser 6 and have made props of my own.  I've done tons of textures as well, and it's a stone hoot to do.

As much as I do my own stuff, I still use other people's stuff,too.  To be blunt--why re-invent the wheel?  If something is close enough, use it; take it move it, morph it, melt it, make it your own and let your muse help you out.

I've always been an artist, and the simile that I use is colored pencils. I don't CARE who made them.  If I bought it--it's MY damned pencil.  It IS up to me what I draw with it.

EVEN if the big boys are oil-painting, or whatever. :lol:

HindSightStudios wrote; " And photography IS NOT ART." Well then, you should explain that to all the people who spend tens of thousands of dollars or more on fine art photographs. "A monkey could walk up right behind you and press the button and get the same result. " In over 15 years as a professional photographer, I have yet seen a single monkey make the kind of money that I do. :) It's not what you use, it's how you use it. Coldrake

Right on Coldrake!

I had forgotten to reply to the "photography not art" comment by HindSight in my post, but you've covered the bases.

"It's not what you use, it's how you use it."

Absolutely true and I think that was my point in my first post about comparing Poser to Photography, maybe I should have been more clear.

Now, if you will all excuse me, I have a Naked Vicky waiting...

Well, I don't know what to say.  I'm not a modeller or a texturist.  I've tried both and don't have the gift for it.  I don't postwork hair or clothing.  I have bought or downloaded lights, poses, figures, scenes, and props although I try to enhance their appearance by tweaking the dial settings and playing with material settings using shader nodes.  I create HDR lighting schemes from my own photos and those of others.  At the end of the day, I like many of the images that I have created.  Whether that makes me an artist or not I leave that up to others to decide...

PapaBlueMarlin, I just looked in your gallery and you do good work! I love your creatures and the laboratory is excellent work! Don't let this thread get you down. The hypocritical self-indulgence of the rant is the same prattle that says you are not a real painter unless you mix your paint from scratch with colors that you wrought from the earth with your own hands. Or that photography isn't art because you don't "make" anything. rolls eyes Art is in the eye of the artist, any other eyes that happen to enjoy what you do, that's just a bonus! My eyes were very happy in your gallery today! :-) Kiera

So Coldrake, you say:

"Well then, you should explain that to all the people who spend tens of thousands of dollars or more on fine art photographs."

I guess you got me there.  If people spend money on something, it must be art.

Quote - I would like to point out that I am the person who used the Photography analogy on the Deviant art site.

I stand by my analogy.

"As a guy who has seriously delved into photography, I've come to appreciate the differences, and buddy, they are VAST."

I'm not going to get into a p*ssing contest with you, but I not only have worked as a pro photographer for more than a decade, I am also a professional Film and Television Editor and graphic artist.  When I say that Poser is akin to a Camera I know what I am speaking of.

In the conclusion of the rant, I can see you do too.

That said, I agree with many of your fine points.

Everyone can benefit from trying their hands at modelling, texturing and lighting.  Everyone can benefit from learning aobut composition and the finer nuances of the technical options in their software.

I've seen exceptional art from people who have just picked up the program and don't know squat about IBL, AO, Depth of Field, Volumetrics and so.  They just have a vision and using whatever default freebies and included props they create something that says something.

I've seen V3 used in brilliant POV Ray and Maya scenes where the artists took the time to sculpt every last building, vehicle, stick of furniture and hand paint every texture, yet s/he hasn't applied one morph or changed one thing about the default V3.

The high and mighty opinion that art can only be created by an elite group of people who have some archane know-how is a bunch of utter crap.

Art is part of the human condition and is something that should be accessible to everyone.

Instead of wandering around insulting people we should be trying to help people achieve their visions, communicate their passions and create their art.

I've seen a lot of photography that I would never qualify as art.  I've seen a  lot of Poserwork, 3D Studio Max work, ink drawings and so on that I would never qualify as art.  But in the end, my opinion does not make the other person's effort any less valid.  

In the end if someone doesn't like a piece, they are free to not look at it.

Excellent reply, couldn't have said it better myself!

Artists or "so called artists" have some of the most extreme and demanding personalities in society, so it's no wonder we see extreme posts from time to time. Just because you have a personal perspective/feeling/view/insight, doesn't mean it's the only one and that everyone should follow it

I totally agree that you should always be pushing yourself to learn and improve your skills, this should apply to everyday life as well. Art should be about veiwing something that moves you, not about the technical aspect behind it. If a person gets emotional over naked vickie in a temple with a sword, who are we to tell him that isn't art. In many cases the person shouldn't even know the technical aspects of how it came about as it will probably take away from the experience.  Everyone here can view the work of the masters in an art gallery and all get a different experience from it.

Instead of chastising those that do use "canned" content in a program that makes great used of "canned" options, look at it as a stepping stone to more advanced options and even go so far as to help them achieve this lofty goal, we all had to start somewhere.

i just read this...
and i agree with a lot of it.
there is so much more to it than pushing dials and so forth. lighting alone can take you a lifetime to perfect...and what's perfect?

i truely believe that for real artisit's this has never been a problem. you can identify what is work and what isn't rather quickly...no need to bonk the naive lad on the head is there? if someone is open to trying to improve their craft, then i can appreciate that and we all started somewhere. but if i can't draw a circle and i want to get by with the bare necessities of available programs and call it art...then you are cheating yourself; not me.
no one ever said art is easy.

i agree with poser being akin to as a photograph and/or camera would be.

to me it's the same difference that has been stated in this whole thread. if you have an artistic sense then you look for the odd angles, the right lighting, the great scene. you know what's good, you just have to capture it. with poser/3d programs you can position/light everyone just as you see in your mind...still a capture of a great scene has to take place; it just doesn't happen naturally.

jmo.

i think the rant in the original post covers about any kind of artisic media you could think of.  learn and evolve. for the most i don't look on it as a critique of poser or art but of the human condition of stasis. i think all of us are guilty of it at times. the belief we can't improve or that we're already that good we have no need to. the fear perhaps that we can't improve.  i know this. if we wish to do anything to the best of our ability we need to learn and evolve. we need to get beyond our stasis where we're happy with what we're doing. most of the best poser work comes from those who bothered to learn what the app can do, those who learned through tuts or mishap to stretch it using only what it has to offer. sadly i'm not one of those people. i'd sooner make something ugly of my own. i'm not good enough with poser to create anything worthwhile in it. i could never do what pap blue does or what many other poser users do. 

a long while ago i used to do poetry. most of the people that did had the same mind set that what ever was churned out was art or poetry. i'd say most of them wouldn't know what poetry was if it slapped them in the face like a wet fish. the same in mind applies to many poser users. it's all well and good that they enjoy what they do. enjoying is the major reason why we do things. but to then state .."i'm an artist" is balderdash. i wrote peotry but i was never a poet. i drive my car fast but i'm not a racing driver. i cook food but i'm no chef. use poser to find or get enjoyment. but to enhance that enjoyment learn how to do it better, to use it the best you can.  the better your knowledge the more you'll enjoy using it. why do we take umbridge at one persons opinion. i thought it had many valid points. if anything i'd personally use a post like  that to inspire me to create better renders. forget about the i am an artist stuff and delve into the program as deep as you can.  when i look at some of the work done in poser i'm astounded at the quality. some exellent, some mediocre and and quiet a lot average. mine would come in the latter catogory.  jmo

billy

Thank you for a substantial and thought provoking post, Peng.

Suffice it to say, you speak of many of my concerns.

Here’s my take on the Photography/Poser analogy.

I have friends who are professional photographers. Indeed, I have just begun studying traditional Black and White Photography with one of them.

What Poser is, is the equivalent of a low-end digital camera in the hands of a person who doesn’t know how to use a regular camera. Everything is quick, inexpensive, immediately importable into Photoshop, and ultimately disposable.

As a learning tool, that’s fine. Go for it. Shoot your neighbor. Shoot your dog. Shoot your new collectable Star Wars miniature. Shoot for the moon.

But no one who actually knows jack hoot about photography will actually look at your work as anything but the adventures of an amateur.

“What, because my camera only shoots 4.2 mega-pixels? Is that the problem?"

No.

“Oh, it’s because it’s digital, and not traditional processing.”

Strike two.

“Oh, I get it...I should have invented the camera, and developed the printing process, and made friends with hoity-toity artists...."

Thank you for playing. Please accept this 32-megabyte memory card as a consolation prize...

The problem is that people do not know how to approach a scene. Instead, they grab a credit card. The lighting is off? Oh, well I’ll head over to ___ and grab a set there.

The figure looks wrong? Must be the morph package...Maybe the Glenda 2 figure has more forgiving joint parameters.

The other day at the DAZ forums, there was a thread about sketching. I was struck by how many people said that they did not sketch scenes beforehand.

“It’s too hard”

“I can’t draw”

“I figure messing with the machine is like sketching”

(I am grossly paraphrasing here)

Here’s a quick clue-in. A sketch doesn’t have to look “good”.

Ever see a building under construction? There are wooden stakes everywhere, orange traffic cones, ugly yellow scaffolds, and big green dumpsters, not to mention the ubiquitous blue porta-potties, in a veritable sea of brown mud...

Looks pretty nasty. That’s because it ISN’T the finished building.

Now what I just wrote was loaded. Tell me true, folks, couldn’t you see that scene in your mind’s eye?

Of course you did. That’s what a sketch is. It’s an arrangement of simple symbols to work with in order to create a scene.

Any man, woman or child in this forum could create that construction scene on scrap paper with a half dozen crayons..

But here’s the kicker...Almost no-one actually does.

Instead, people immediately dig through eight gigs of runtime, of seven and a half pages of Freestuff, DAZ specials, or Content Paradise to find and purchase these items.

And as a result, with everyone using the same materials, from the same vendors, with the same camera and light settings, the pieces become virtually interchangeable.

This is one of the most important points of what Peng has written here, Study this closely.

Just a few quick thoughts from little me:

Bah !  I'm very happy with tinkering about inside Poser and DAZ Studio, and Hexagon and Shade and Bryce...  I don't care squat....

"they invested their own imaginations and creativity into their results."
quoting original message which started this thread

Agrrreeee !!

I am very grateful that there are freebie-makiers and merchants who took the pain and sweat out  of re-inventing the wheel for me, for some things I want to include in my 3D scenes.  Sure, I'd like to "pwn" these items a bit (to use a kiddie-tech term) and give them a little artistic flavour of my own - so that the effect isn't too "canned", but instead sits nicely with what I want in my scene.

( As for dealing with emotionally-hypersensitive artists from non-Poser or non-3DCG media, call me a conflict-avoider, but I don't like wasting my time and energy on some long-drawn-out nasty slanging match with those types.  Having said that, I am supportive of those who are very tuned-in to their art in non-3D media.  It's just that I don't see any point in entering a fray of that nature.  My real-life friends are into real-life Chinese brush painting, watercolours, acrylics, photography, etc.)

My turn.  the rant was interesting, and touched on issues that I feel strongly about, mostly that the image should tell a story, convey a feeling, or at the very least, document a moment.  reading the rant, I xcame to a conclusion that Penguinisto was this great artist with a great breadth of experience.  So, before I went through the rest of the thread I decided to check out the gallery, only to find that the images were nice, but not profound.  In the past, people have slammed my work, giving me advice on how i could "IMPROVE" it to their liking, and then when I check their galleries, I find out that they had never posted anything.  I'm glad that Penguinisto has posted some images to add backing to the rant....... however,
and there's always a however.........
check that annoying thing in the top left corner of this page, saying that this is an artist community.  By slamming new artists with the macaroni analogies is petty and insulting.  I tell my students when I do a workshop that a camera is merely a hammer, a computer is merely an anvil.  granted they are very delicate and expensive hammers and anvils but base tools none the less.
What you do with the tools is what makes you "an artist".  I didn't call myself an artist until someone else called me an artist.  
I too am tired of the Nude Vicky in a temple with a sword ( a while ago I posted a Nude Posette with a sword in protest), but then again, I don't look at those images.  What I look for is meat, substance, solid, depth.
when I post, there's a reason I post.  I have created something that I wish to share.
what could be truer than that.
rant and rave all you want, but remember, we are a community.
sorry, gotta go, Dr. Who is on.

As I love a good rant and just love to stir the pot, here are my two cents worth (although I wouldn't give you squat for my opinion).  First and foremost, Poser art is just that, POSER art.  It in no way compares to painting, charcol/pencil/ink drawings, and it in no way compares to photography.  I have used all of the above mediums except paint (if it doesn't come in a can, I suck at it) and have found enjoyment in all of them.  Each and every 3D/CG program takes talent to use and use properly.  Here is where I think our illustrious starter of this was hinting at.  I have been a member of Renderosity for years, and throughout those years I have saved a total of 8 renders that others have done, period.  I in no way equate myself to be a top level user of Poser as working 45 hour work weeks and trying to maintain a life tend to limit the attention necessary to attain that level.  What I have seen, majority wise, on Poser renders is exactly what is stated in the initial post, people slap down a figure, throw some boobs on her and click render.  No effort is made to ensure that when the figure is grabbing an object, say a sword, that the figure is actually holding the sword and the sword isn't melded in the fingers.  Or to take the time to pose the hair or clothing so that half of it isn't cutting the figure in half.  The one I hate the most, and there is a certain artist who does this with almost all their work is to render a face, slap it on a figure from someone elses drawing or photograph and claim it was rendered in Poser.   Last of all folks, if you are going to post your work on a dedicated CG site which showcases work using 3D Max/Maya/Lightwave/etc, take the time to make your work shine and show that you have pride in what you do because when you don't, what the world sees from the work of one, they may equate it as the work of all.

Nevr argue with an idiot, they will only drag you down to their level and beat you with their expertise.

not to split hairs but it says art community which is something completely different to an artists community. whilst an artists community is a community of artists. an art community can have non artists in it. people who appreciate art or aspire to it. people who want to learn to be an artist. people who think they're an artist and the list goes on. which kinda dismantles the however. oops

that said i agree that new artists or those wishing to become artists should be nurtured and not neutered. and i also agree that anything an artist uses to create art is merely a tool. what i don't see is many agreeing that having or using an artists tool set doesn't necesarily make the user an artist. in fact in the main i see people saying...i use the artists toolset (poser) therefore i am an artist. 
if my last statement holds true then sorry but the poser world has a lot of delusional people paying rent. maybe it's this that pisses off the so called real artists. personally it doesn't bother me cos i'm only a piss artist

billy

Attached Link: http://excalibur.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1339042

I have to disagree. It's all how you use the tools. I love Poser. I spend hours on end creating my scenes, then more hours getting the lighting just so, and yes, from premade sets that get me started, moving, adjusting, until they are exactly the way I want them. More hours to make sure that pose is just right, including hands, feet, eyes and expressions. More hours bringing in scenery, plants, trees, water, etc. and getting that placed. I've been able to take what I know as a traditional artists to much higher levels than I ever could before. I don't paint hair or clothing because I don't have to. I work full time so my time in Poser is precious. Yes, I do some postwork and that's so I can achieve the look I want from my renders, something that sets my art apart from the norm. And I even try to have my images convey something. So tell me my work is crap.

It's all how you use the tools you have.

thats the trouble with genralising in a thread like this. everyone thinks it's aimed at them personally when it is'nt..

" So tell me my work is crap."

is the above a request or an order lol. 

as long as it's the best you can do why worry for god's sake. unless you want to be known as the great who is.

i'd buy a good piece of art if i could afford it and most of the stuff made in poser would'nt come close to connecting my hand to my wallet.  that said i have nothing but respect for anyone who tries there best to do something.  and if someone enjoys doing what it is they do i applaud them.  but when people put themselves on pedastals they can't possibly climb i become slightly amused...and no flyby night i'm not talking of you or any one in particular just in general.

i'm of the school that no endeavour is crap if it leads to greater endeavours

billy

my meager opinion is...I agree with this many of the points in this thread. It takes time to do do something intersting and not just be "plug and play"  so to speak.

Mostly art should come from something inside ones self...Any means of making art from high end programs to a chalk piece on chalkboard can be a starting point...So long as just a "stroke" so to speak, isn't going to be the end point all the time...
Then again what is abstract art...

It is a very interesting debate and it is nice reading all the opinions on the matter...

I guess my end meagerly opinion is....Do the art or renders or models that makes "you" , in general, feel good...just so you don't cringe away from that little bug that likes to poke at you to push the boundaries and try new things.  :biggrin:

Quote -   Thank you for a substantial and thought provoking post, Peng.

 Suffice it to say, you speak of many of my concerns.

 Here’s my take on the Photography/Poser analogy.

 I have friends who are professional photographers. Indeed, I have just begun studying traditional Black and White Photography with one of them.

 What Poser is, is the equivalent of a low-end digital camera in the hands of a person who doesn’t know how to use a regular camera. Everything is quick, inexpensive, immediately importable into Photoshop, and ultimately disposable.

 As a learning tool, that’s fine. Go for it. Shoot your neighbor. Shoot your dog. Shoot your new collectable Star Wars miniature. Shoot for the moon.

 But no one who actually knows jack hoot about photography will actually look at your work as anything but the adventures of an amateur.

 “What, because my camera only shoots 4.2 mega-pixels? Is that the problem?"

 No.

 “Oh, it’s because it’s digital, and not traditional processing.”

 Strike two.

 “Oh, I get it...I should have invented the camera, and developed the printing process, and made friends with hoity-toity artists...."

 Thank you for playing. Please accept this 32-megabyte memory card as a consolation prize...

 The problem is that people do not know how to approach a scene. Instead, they grab a credit card. The lighting is off? Oh, well I’ll head over to ___ and grab a set there.

 The figure looks wrong? Must be the morph package...Maybe the Glenda 2 figure has more forgiving joint parameters.

 The other day at the DAZ forums, there was a thread about sketching. I was struck by how many people said that they did not sketch scenes beforehand.

 “It’s too hard”

 “I can’t draw”

 “I figure messing with the machine is like sketching”

 (I am grossly paraphrasing here)

 Here’s a quick clue-in. A sketch doesn’t have to look “good”.

 Ever see a building under construction? There are wooden stakes everywhere, orange traffic cones, ugly yellow scaffolds, and big green dumpsters, not to mention the ubiquitous blue porta-potties, in a veritable sea of brown mud...

 Looks pretty nasty. That’s because it ISN’T the finished building.

 Now what I just wrote was loaded. Tell me true, folks, couldn’t you see that scene in your mind’s eye?

 Of course you did. That’s what a sketch is. It’s an arrangement of simple symbols to work with in order to create a scene.

 Any man, woman or child in this forum could create that construction scene on scrap paper with a half dozen crayons..

 But here’s the kicker...Almost no-one actually does.

 Instead, people immediately dig through eight gigs of runtime, of seven and a half pages of Freestuff, DAZ specials, or Content Paradise to find and purchase these items.

 And as a result, with everyone using the same materials, from the same vendors, with the same camera and light settings, the pieces become virtually interchangeable.

This is one of the most important points of what Peng has written here, Study this closely.

 

Hmmm. 

In the 1980's, my secret ambition was to become an illustrator, to draw like the great old masters. But something was lacking in my brain that kept me from being able to visualize my characters' complex poses.

I knew what I wanted to draw, and I knew what was great when I saw it, but starting from a blank page just never worked. *

So what about folks who can't do that sketching thing huh?

"That texture set that seems just right and that light set looks like it might do the trick. What DM set do I use this time? And that background I stashed here. Ok, set this in place...oh yeah...this pose fits what I see in my minds eye....Control-R. Hey....that looks just like what I was trying to do. I'll look at the dials later, but for right now let me post this and see what folks think."

Is this a bad thing? 

So YOU are a good writer. (Yeah we couild all visualize your scene) Let's see the above in a sequence of Poser images?

The point of my previous post is the Poser Landscape is not what it used to be.  If you know the history of computers and real hackers you know what I mean. Stuff when from being available in a desk drawer to highly-prized top secret-uh-uh-aint-gonna-share-it intellectual property. There are a lot more TYPES of users and we will see differing TYPES of stuff done.

Poser is an application that can be used (and has been) professsionally to my favorite John and Jane Noobie spitting out their version of NVIATWAS. There is  going to be stuff that will drop jaws to stuff that will want to make you poke your eyes out. Nature of the beast.

One may fork our $$$ to have the family portrait done or those wedding shots, but that candid pic taken of Gramps loosing his dentures when we surprised him, or that shot made with the throwaway camera of the baby snuggled with the cat on the living room floor will be just as precious to the one taking those pics than the pictures done "professionally". 

You've perhaps have come up with a great idea. We can consider the stuff that looks canned, obviously from a newbie or someone who has yet to push themselves as "That person's SKETCHES". Nothing wrong with looking at folks SKETCHES now is there?

Of course that person may consider what they've done as ART.  
-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-

*This is a quote from "A message from Larry Weinberg" that can be found in the Poser 6 Reference Manual.  Here's this kicker. There are a lot of folks who may be in the same boat as Mr. Weinberg. Are we all not glad he was a programmer? 

Not all Poser users are coming from a Professional background where the "pre-process" is a part of the workflow. Not all Poser users are going to want to go beyond where Poser puts the props, render and GO! 

While in University I took a great Philosophy class on "Aesthetics: What is Art".

We read books and essays by the finest minds int he field.  We discussed at length hypothetical situations, like If an elephant steps in paint and walks over a canvas, is it art?  What if it is placed in a Natural History Mueseum, what if it is placed in a New York art gallery?  Or, If an artist hands a piece of beutiful driftwood that he just found on the beach to a curator of an art gallery and tells him it is a donation and to call it 'Driftwood', is it art?

I'll save you the time and money, there was no conclusive answer.

A great exercise in thinking, though, and a great introduction to the fact that there are as many different definitions as there are people.

There are also many ways to go about creating "art".  Many of the greatest sculpters throughout history never sketched out their ideas, they "let the stone" dictate their movements,  They let the clay, be their "muse".

I do sketch out my ideas before hand about half the time.  Usually this is because I get an idea while at work or first thing in the morning and I don't want to loose it.  I also sometimes just sit down and scroll through my runtime and see what strikes me.

Is one piece more art than the other?

I'll let the philosophers decide.

I agree with the original post.

To put a finer point on the intricacies of the Poser<-->photography comparison, Poser is like a camera that can be tweaked to work like anything from a disposable Polaroid to a high resolution digital camera, with a built-in flash that can be extended into a full lighting rig. It includes free models who are completely ignorant of how to model or use makeup, so work is required to get good results out of them, in addition to adjusting the camera and lighting. The problem comes when a professional photographer is exhibiting his pictures of a glamorous model that he paid hundreds of dollars an hour to shoot, and along comes Joe Lazyman with his cheap Polaroid style images, demanding that he be given equal gallery space. It is then no longer a point that Joe "was just having fun" or "is just a hobbyist". He is insisting on being seen by the same audience, so he is himself comparing his work to that of a professional. When it is shown to be an unfavorable comparison, Joe should simply bow out, and return if and when he is willing to work on improving his skills. Otherwise, he should find a gallery where he is among peers. It doesn't matter that Gary Poserartisto can make professional-quality images with that same adjustable camera, because Gary's images aren't being compared here.

Basically, what I am trying to say is that it is fine and good if you are having fun with Poser, and have no aspirations of creating images of the same caliber as those seen in the CGSociety galleries. If you are creating the images for your own enjoyment, then by all means don't stress over details that won't bother you in a final render. If the image is for you, then you are the only one you need to please. However, if you are going to post your images in a gallery where users of high-end programs are known to frequent, then be prepared to either put a lot of effort into your images to set them apart from what's associated with so-called "Poser art", or to face ridicule when such has not been done.

Needless to say, this is all just MHO :)

"If you browse the Maya or Max galleries most of the images are WIP´s or single objects.  I´d rather see another image of Vicky in a temple then another image of a wineglass on a wooden table, no matter how long it took to model it!"

I've made jokes about this very thing before and Vestmann is absolutely right. You are no more of an artist if you render a mirrored ball in Maya than if you rendered it in Poser. The flood of 'boring' nude Poser pics is just a result of Poser being more affordable and thus, more people able to acquire it and make their own art. The DAZ Studio galleries here are a good example of this. There's a lot of beginner and first-time 3D user art there because a lot of DAZ Studio users ARE beginners - it's free software and new users aren't going to immediately create the same works that long-time Poser users are.

If Max cost $150 and came with a poseable nude woman, you'd see EXACTLY the same kind of art created with it.

SnowS

Quote - If Max cost $150 and came with a poseable nude woman, you'd see EXACTLY the same kind of art created with it.
SnowS

SOOOOOO true! Well said.

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... But all the same, I'd like to encourage newcomers to 3DCG art....  Let them proudly display their first artwork, or three, or six, "canned" or not "canned", stock subject matter, or not.

Quote - > Quote - If Max cost $150 and came with a poseable nude woman, you'd see EXACTLY the same kind of art created with it.

SnowS

SOOOOOO true! Well said.

sorry but you wouldn't because maya or max  are  modelling programs first and foremost. it's a completely different animal. wings and amapi are free yet i doubt the most modelled  figure is an amazon with a sword. usually people try to create something of their own with a modelling program...a head or a prop. a pice of clothing perhaps.  liker poser artists end products most are not sublime works of art. they wouldn't need a free figure cos you can put any figure in them and work on them, in many cases easier than you can in poser. id pretty much say if max or maya came out at 150 dollars poser shares would tumble. out of curiosity where do you think the poser models are made?

billy