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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 Nov 11 8:37 pm)
Subject: Antonia - Opinions?
BluEcho,
Quote - I can hardly wait for your geometry swapper to be posted on the developer's site.
It sounds great!
I'm not ready to post the geometry swapper files to the development site yet, partly because they are still to be considered as very experimental, and partly because I want to wait until there are some textures posted for MikeJ's latest eye UVs, partly because I don't have the High Res versions of Mike's latest eye UV's yet, so the thing would not be complete and up to date, and partly because because I want to see how things develop with the eyes before I set anything in stone.
But if you IM me with an email address, I will send you what I have so far. That also goes for anyone else who is desperate to get their hands on it.
Some executive decisions: 
Eyes: I will stick with the original mapping, which also works on bagginbill's eyes. As soon as he gives me the go-ahead, I'll make his eyes the defaults for Antonia. (bagginsbill: I don't remember if we've talked about the license yet. The CCAL is very liberal and would allow third parties to use your eyes in commercial products. If you don't want that, we need to keep them separate from the main cr2 and apply whatever license you prefer.)
UV-mapping: MikeJ's mapping will be the official one, but I can't put it on an "official" preview as long as we don't have a generally available texture to go with it. The one by SaintFox is, until a "final" version of Antonia is released, only available to developers. So at the moment I am stuck.
BluEcho: Is there any reason why you would need to apply the texture you're making to the current version of Antonia? The geometry is practically unchanged; I've only moved maybe a dozen vertices (in the high-res version) by miniscule amounts. There are some improvements in the rigging, but those shouldn't have any impact on texturing. That said, if you really want it, I'll be happy to make a developer's version of the Antonia-118 with the "odf-approved" version of MikeJ's mapping.
lesbentley: In the light of the above, my suggestion would be to simply use Antonia's original eyes (with the original mapping) in both versions.
-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.
odf, I wanted to see how AP18 would look with AP 16 texture but when I tried to apply it, it didn't work.
After downloading the geometry swapper it worked fine. :)
Antonia 16 uses MikeJ's uv while 18 takes the your uv maps.
if we are going with Mike's maps, I finished the texture but need to make all the mat files.
Let me introduce you to my multiple personalities. :)
BluEcho...Faery_Light...Faery_Souls.
odf,
Quote - lesbentley: In the light of the above, my suggestion would be to simply use Antonia's original eyes (with the original mapping) in both versions.
My idea behind this whole geometry injection (or "geom swapping" if you prefer) thing, was to be able to support the use of the MJ mapping, and textures made for that mapping, in versions of Antonia that don't currently support the MJ mapping, eg 114 and 118.
Obviously there is a kind of symbiotic relationship between textures and mapping. One is no good without the other. At the moment the best texture set available for Antonia is (IMO) SaintFox's recent one. This is seems best suited to the MJ116C eye mapping, and MJ116B mapping everywhere else, but not at all suited to the default mapping.
My thinking runs like this. It will not be necessary to inject the MJ mapping into the next version of Antonia, because it will already be the default (except for the eyes).
However there is a current problem, "How to use the latest SaintFox textures with the 118 figure?" the same will probably apply to the new BlueEcho textures when they are released. The solution is to inject geometry with the MJ B and C mapping. Unless someone comes up with a convincing argument why not to, that's what I plan to do. I will also include an injection to revert the eyes-only to the default mapping, and of course there will be a file to restore the default geometry to the 118 figure. To me this seems the best solution to the current problems. The current SaintFox texture is supported in this solution, and if a new texture set surfaces that uses the default eyes, but the MJ mapping everywhere else, then there is a file to revert the eyes-only.
So the upshot is that I am still seeking a Hi Res version of the MJ116C lEye and rEye obj files. I already have Lo Res versions, but the Lo Res obj files were produced by exporting from Poser, is that OK?
As to BB's eyes, if and when they become a part of the default Antonia figure, they should be as amenable to these geometry injection techniques as any other eyes. At the moment, because there are two actors in the BB eyes, the eye and a cover, and because there is currently no "cover" actor in Antonia, it raises extra problems in injecting them. Loading them as smart props may be the best solution for the present. Using the BB eyes has no baring on the MJ vs default UVs debate from the point of injecting geometry, as loading the BB eyes will will load the BB UVs for the eyes, end of story.
I've been working on both mapping sets and find that both have pros and cons.
I like the odf version to a certain extent.
The genital area attached to the map works best for me on odf's map but the chest and hips separated gives me problems on seams.
On Mike's set the torso all in one map works better except for the legs being separate and the genitals on it's own map.
That is a pain to hide seams.
I love Mike's head mapping.
But I can find work-arounds for the seam problems on either map.
My latest texture will be a higher quality than any of the ones I've done so far.
It is looking great.
All I need to do is the mc6 and pz2 files and a set with vss as well. :)
Let me introduce you to my multiple personalities. :)
BluEcho...Faery_Light...Faery_Souls.
lesbentley: I am confused. Earlier on you wrote that you wanted MikeJ's latest mapping for the eyes, and noted that there is not texture yet that uses the new mapping. Then I pointed out that we will eventually go back to the original mapping for the eyes, so that there's no need for the re-re-mapped ones. To that you answer that you need them anyway because you want to support SaintFox's texture in Antonia-118. So in summary you want a UV-mapping that no textures exist for in order to make those non-existing textures usable. What am I missing?
-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.
Quote - lesbentley: I am confused. Earlier on you wrote that you wanted MikeJ's latest mapping for the eyes, and noted that there is not texture yet that uses the new mapping. Then I pointed out that we will eventually go back to the original mapping for the eyes, so that there's no need for the re-re-mapped ones. To that you answer that you need them anyway because you want to support SaintFox's texture in Antonia-118. So in summary you want a UV-mapping that no textures exist for in order to make those non-existing textures usable. What am I missing?
Ah yes, That was a confusion on my part. I assumed that because the SaintFox textures were made for the MJ116B mapping, that they would not work on the MJ116C mapping. That assumption turned out to be wrong. In fact the latest MJ mapping just corrects the stretching of the sclera on SaintFox's texture. As far as I can see the current SF texture works perfectly with latest MJ mapping (see above image).
So to make the current SaintFox textures work on the 118 figure, all I need is the latest versions of MJ UV mapped lEye and rEye obj files.
As I said in my last post, I already have versions of the Lo Res eyes, but as Mike sent me R and L eyes in one obj, I had to export from Poser to get individual eye obj files. These work fine as far as I am concerned, but I seem to remember that you did not like what Poser did to obj files on export. As it is ultimately your geometry, I do not want to distribute any version that you might consider damaged in any way by the Poser export.
I like the executive decisions. ;-)
Still confused about what's going on with the eyes, but that's nothing new. ;-)
No, I can understand what Les is saying - the sclera fix version I did after SaintFox pointed out the terrible distortion (still shaking my head over that one) is the one that SaintFox wants to use. I don't know what she thinks about the BB eyes.
But also, Les is talking about problems with geometry switching and the BB eyes, since they involve extra actors in the figure.
Once again though, for more "traditional" eyes, personally I think that odf's original mapping is better, and I guess that's what Olaf is saying - to use the original AP 114 eyes? And/or the BB eyes?
Whatever you do, don't use the 116b eyes - the ones with the sclera stretching. ;-)
Then again, if BB's eyes become the "official" Antonia eyes, there wouldn't be any need for geometry switching, right?
Aside from the UV map situation, but I would think that once the final version is released, people will work off of that, and geometry switching for the sake of the UV maps wouldn't be much of a concern.
BlueEcho, your last texture WIP looked pretty good - looking forward to seeing the completed version. :-)
Quote -
In fact the latest MJ mapping just corrects the stretching of the sclera on SaintFox's texture. As far as I can see the current SF texture works perfectly with latest MJ mapping (see above image).
Yeah, I didn't think to mention that to you, but I guess I should have. I made sure that the iris mapping didn't move or change at all, but the sclera was completely redone and the corneas, which had been separate islands, were rejoined to the sclera.
Quote -
I'm doing eyes on both maps.ooops, mouse went wild again.
I tried the eyes from one set on 18 and they wouldn't work so I did a set with the maps that came with her.
I have maps from each version.
Unless SaintFox, Les, or Olaf gave them to you, you don't have what is being called the 116C eyes, with the sclera fix. I had only sent that to SaintFox for her to test to see if she thought it was better that way, and the file only contained only the eyes as an OBJ file. As far as I know, there is no Antonia with those eyes in her head.
I could give you the link if you wanted, but I don't think it's going to matter much. ;-)
Note again though that that was just a tentative fix as an experiment, which is why I didn't put it on the dev site.
Mike, you're right, I don't have those eye maps for 116C.
But for all the rest, yes.
BB, got your eye file but my brain is in downfall and can't think how to apply it...lol.
ODF, my Celene texture that I did an image with over Halloween (Godiva) was on the mapping from Mike's set just before the last one.
Is that the mapping you are going with or the one you released in the new 118 package?
My newest texture is made for that package. :)
Let me introduce you to my multiple personalities. :)
BluEcho...Faery_Light...Faery_Souls.
Quote - Then again, if BB's eyes become the "official" Antonia eyes, there wouldn't be any need for geometry switching, right?
Probably not as much need. But some people might still like to use legacy content, so perhaps there would still be some call for it. Besides, I don't think it is settled yet that the BB eyes will be an integral part of the next release.
Quote - Quote - "The one [texture] by SaintFox is, until a "final" version of Antonia is released, only available to developers. So at the moment I am stuck."
She is planning on making that public and freely available though, right?
She just doesn't want it "out there" until it's finished is what I assumed.
That was the way I understood it to, though I don't want to put words in SaintFox's mouth.
Quote - Unless SaintFox, Les, or Olaf gave them to you, you don't have what is being called the 116C eyes, with the sclera fix. I had only sent that to SaintFox for her to test to see if she thought it was better that way, and the file only contained only the eyes as an OBJ file. As far as I know, there is no Antonia with those eyes in her head.
I could give you the link if you wanted, but I don't think it's going to matter much. ;-)Note again though that that was just a tentative fix as an experiment, which is why I didn't put it on the dev site.
Well the tentative fix seems to have worked very well. So I think it should now be the official fix. Of course that may be a moot point if all the future textures are aimed at the BB eyes.
As to which mapping BlueEcho has used. For the sake of consistency, it would probably have been better to use the 116C mapping, but if she succeeded in mapping the sclera into the 116B eyes (no easy job I think), my geom injector should be able to take care of that. Note here that I am assuming that my geom injector will become the preferred way of using the MJ UVs, untill the next release of Antonia. Of course that may not turn out to be the case.
Quote -
MikeJ: Do I have the version of the eyes with the sclera stretch fix? Should I have them?
I sent you a site mail yesterday with a link to them. The mail was titled "Lo res eyes at Les' request" or something like that. I did that right after Les requested that here yesterday.
He had wanted you to do your magic CC thing on them so he could have a pair of high res to plop into Antonia.
BluEcho,
Quote - BB, got your eye file but my brain is in downfall and can't think how to apply it...lol.
With BB's eyes version 1 (BBEyePR1.zip)load the eye prop from the props palette, then load the cover prop. Parent the cover to the eye, set the cover to Outline Display Style. Move the eye prop until it is in the same position as Antonia's rEye. With Antonia in a zeroed state, this should be approximately xTran = -0.013230, yTran = 0.653850, zTran = -0.013230, yRotate = -5.0. once you have the eye prop positioned correctly parent it to Antonias rEye.
Load another instance of the BBEye prop and Cover, and repeat the process for the left eye. The yTran and zTran will be the same as the right eye prop, the xTran will be xTran = 0.013230, the yRotate = 5.0. If there is not a texture map on the props apply a texture map made for the default Antonia UVs.
Be aware that BB's version 1 eye prop is very much a work in progress, it is likely to change a lot before the final release. The next version will probably be smart props which will position themselves automatically.
Quote - Move the eye prop until it is in the same position as Antonia's rEye. With Antonia in a zeroed state, this should be approximately xTran = -0.013230, yTran = 0.653850, zTran = -0.013230, yRotate = -5.0. once you have the eye prop positioned correctly parent it to Antonias rEye.
The precise position is xTran=-0.0131644, yTran=0.653851, zTran=0.0165272 for the right eye. I think you pasted the xTran value into zTran by mistake.
-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.
odf,
I think you are wrong about the correct xTran for the eye prop. Look at the image above. The rEye is in Smoothed Line Display Style, the BBEye in Wirefreme. The BBEye has been yRotated -5.0° to match the orientation of the rEye. The Front Camera has been yRotated -5.0° to match the orientation of the eyes (yes you heard right). You can clearly see that the BBEye is a better fit in the top image, at -0.013230 :tongue2: . I won't argue with you about the yTran, I can't pick the difference at this magnification.
lesbentley: Touche! The coordinates I listed were taken from origin of the eye actor as used in Antonia. I think that was originally set by hand, so it might not be precisely in the center of the actual eye geometry. Since I assume the BBEye's are precisely centered at 0,0,0 in their default state, I would argue that moving their center to the actor origin is the correct strategy, even if this does not match were the existing eyes now sit. :tongue2:
-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.
lesbentley: some new bodyparts for you are here.
These are the sclera-fixed MikeJ-mapped eyes and also the new A117 hip2 and collars with Mike's mapping applied. All the other bits should still be as in the Antonia-116 geometry, so I've not included them.
-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.
Quote - SaintFox: I can't help but wonder if something may not be quite right with the angle of the brows in your latest Toni texture (the one made for MikeJ's mapping). She always seems to look pretty sad when I render her.
My humble opinion is that either a slight raise in the middle or a slight lowering on the inside might help with that. Cause she does look sad.
Content Advisory! This message contains nudity
Quote - These are the sclera-fixed MikeJ-mapped eyes and also the new A117 hip2 and collars with Mike's mapping applied. All the other bits should still be as in the Antonia-116 geometry, so I've not included them.
Thanks for the files, I really appreciate you including the hip2 and collars to bring the geom up to date. Unfortunately you seem to have sent the wrong files. All the parts in the zip, including the eyes, seem to use the old 114 mapping. :sad:
lesbentley: Yep, that looks a bit more neutral, but on the other hand now the elegant curve is gone. That's why I thought maybe SaintFox might change the angle of the whole brows a tiny bit so that the don't come up quite as high on the inside. Since I remember she likes to keep things on different layers in Photoshop, that should be an easy thing for her to try out.
I realize that there are people who naturally seem to look a little sad when their faces are relaxed, just because of how they are shaped. And that's not necessarily a bad thing for Antonia, either, I agree. So I'm leaving it up to SaintFox to decide what she wants to do. I just thought I'd mention it, because I know well that if one spents hours and days on creating something, it's sometimes hard to notice little things like that.
-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.
Ohmyohmy LOL I am back! And pretty amazed what happened here while I had almost no chance to read THE THREAD while celebrating birthday with my Dad. So I hope that I caught all questions!!
- I will re-do the "original eyes" with the new UVs for the sclera - as long as you still have use for them.
- When they are finished I will do textures for BB's eyes as well, of course. My personal opinion: Include both versions as long as this is possible as to me it sounds as if only the original or standard eyes will be compatible with DAZ Studio. Not that I use it a lot but many other people do so it would be strange to leave them standing in the rain with an eyeless Antonia.
- The brows: No problem. In fact the original person who borrowed her face looks a bit melancholic on many photos but giving those brows a little tilt is unproblematic. What I would ask for is a sample of what you desire. Maybe someone can take the browless face, cover it with the one with brows, cut away everything but the brows and give them a gentle push until they look right.
As I do not see something wrong with them (business blindness...) but hear you on the other hand and see that the morph lesbentley used makes her look more neutral indeed I would be very thankful to have a sample for the change!!
I'm not always right, but my mistakes are more interesting!
And I am not strange, I am Limited Edition!
Are you ready for Antonia? Get her textures here:
The Home Of The Living Dolls
SaintFox: The way I understood it, your eye textures should still work with the fixed sclera-mappings, only better. In fact, I did some renders with them yesterday, and everything looked just fine. So there wouldn't be any need to re-do your textures. But maybe I'm missing something (again).
As for BB's new eyes, I see no reason at all why their geometry shouldn't work in D|S. Of course the material setups for Poser wouldn't work and would have to be replaced with D|S-compatible settings, but that's true for anything that uses node-based post-P4 materials.
I'll try to come up with some suggestion for the brows. I think so far version 3 in lesbentley's post above comes closest to what I'd like to see. A good test is to do an frontal, un-posed full-body render at your normal preview-window dimensions. She should seem to have a relatively neutral expression (a.k.a. blank stare) in it.
-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.
*Of course the material setups for Poser wouldn't work and would have to be replaced with D|S-compatible settings, but that's true for anything that uses node-based post-P4 materials.
Yep, that's what I mean - I am not sure how much the material settings make them look so real but so far I am under the impression that a majority of the effect depends on the material settings.
**She should seem to have a relatively neutral expression in it.
I will try my very best to alter this - if this sounds strange: To me she looks neutral
But the most important thing: Do you say that the re-mapped version 116-scleras take the textures I did for the first (AltUV) 116 and there is no distortion any longer?! If so this tells me that I know nothing at all about UV-mapping! :laugh:
I'm not always right, but my mistakes are more interesting!
And I am not strange, I am Limited Edition!
Are you ready for Antonia? Get her textures here:
The Home Of The Living Dolls
SaintFox,
Welcome back to the virtual world. 
[this is a sort of cross-post with ofd, who has mentioned some of the points already, but as I have already typed it, I'm not going to start editing it now]
Quote - 1) I will re-do the "original eyes" with the new UVs for the sclera - as long as you still have use for them.
It's up to you of course, but I don't think you need to re-do them. The Mike's sclera for his UV map (which I think you already have) just corrects the stretching of the sclera that was evident on the first version, and does not affect the rest of the eye. To my mind your eye texture now looks perfect with Mike's corrected mapping.
Quote - 2) When they are finished I will do textures for BB's eyes as well, of course. My personal opinion: Include both versions as long as this is possible as to me it sounds as if only the original or standard eyes will be compatible with DAZ Studio. Not that I use it a lot but many other people do so it would be strange to leave them standing in the rain with an eyeless Antonia.
I very much agree with the above. I think the next Antonia should ship with both the original eye geom (old mapping) and BB's eyes (which also use the old mapping, but different material zones).
Quote - 3) The brows: No problem. In fact the original person who borrowed her face looks a bit melancholic on many photos but giving those brows a little tilt is unproblematic. What I would ask for is a sample of what you desire. Maybe someone can take the browless face, cover it with the one with brows, cut away everything but the brows and give them a gentle push until they look right.
Personally I have no particular preference on the brows, I don't mind if they stay the same or change. The images I posted were just to give visual expression to some suggestions from others. There were no Poser morphs involved, for most of the images I just used the Smudge tool in PSP5. For #3 in the last image, I used the Rotate tool.
Quote - I think the next Antonia should ship with both the original eye geom (old mapping) and BB's eyes (which also use the old mapping, but different material zones).
Actually, I don't see any practical advantage to that for end users. What can the original eye geometry do that BB's can't? Why would anyone really want slightly less detail in the mesh and that wacky detached iris?
As a developer, I see some small problems integrating BB's eye construction into my workflow, but nothing I couldn't work around.
-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.
Unicornst: I think someone with brows like your avatar would actually be an even better reference in this case. Not all women have the "ideal" bird-wing's shape with the relatively steep angle from the inner end to the peak. I'd have to look at some more references (yes, I do that on occasion, even if no "naughty bits" are involved) but I think that the positions of the inner ends relative to the eyes are probably most important for the perceived expression, and that they should generally be more or less at the same height as we see them in the Megan Fox picture.
-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.
The problem is that if you build a texture from scratch you better leave some surrounding skin around the little hairs - and between them. Otherwise you will either have a nasty difference between "brow skin" and "face skin" or you have to get rid of some hairs or you have to color-shift the whole layer with the brows what alters the brow's color as well. Whenever I tried this I ended up with an unnatural result. The brows of the model/actress above are obviously filled up with brow powder - that makes it even more difficult to match them to the skin and looks unnatural in close ups.
From my experience you can use some features from different photo-sets/persons: The navel, knees, elbows, foot soles, nails, genital area, eyes (of course) and areolas and ears with limitations, if you are lucky you can even use a different face. But using different lips and brows often ends up with a "perfect but fake"-result.
But this discussion is one of the reasons I provided a texture without brows so each one can create a different set of brows (or use transmapped brows if desired). If one of you likes to try his hand on different brows or lips I can offer an uncompressed bmp of the face - just drop me a line!
I'm not always right, but my mistakes are more interesting!
And I am not strange, I am Limited Edition!
Are you ready for Antonia? Get her textures here:
The Home Of The Living Dolls
SaintFox: I think the brows you used are fine. I'll just muck around with your texture map a bit to see if I can find a position that makes them look a bit more neutral. And as you said, there's always the brow-less version of the texture that people can paint their own brows on. So no sweat, just consider it part of my ongoing investigation on what humans look like.
-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.
No sweat, indeed - I am always open for discussion and just think it may be interesting for the one or other why I did things the way I did them
I'm not always right, but my mistakes are more interesting!
And I am not strange, I am Limited Edition!
Are you ready for Antonia? Get her textures here:
The Home Of The Living Dolls
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lesbentley, I was just thinking how great it would be if I could use the Texture Convertor on Antonia.
I just made a new tex for Toni16 (image posted here somewhere) and it won't work on the others and I don't know which mapping will be final.
I can hardly wait for your geometry swapper to be posted on the developer's site.
It sounds great!
BB, love the eyes you're doing, they are wonderful.
Let me introduce you to my multiple personalities. :)
BluEcho...Faery_Light...Faery_Souls.