I got sort of off-topic question: If you change a bone's position in the set-up room, can this be transfered to a conforming cloth with a pose, or do I have to re-rig everything?

Hmm, sorry if I stepped on some trotters, ...err..., toes with that "pearl before swine" remark.

Let me phrase that in a different way then:

1) For many or most renders, the new eyes will make no difference, since if your irises are only half a dozen pixels wide, all you really look for is a dark spot with a smaller bright spot inside. Even at modest close-ups, the difference will not be all that spectacular unless one looks at a side view of the eyes.

2) Even in close-ups, not everyone is interested in extreme photorealism. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Some use Poser in a more illustrative way, and that's perfectly legitimate and not to be frowned upon. Experiments in realism do not produce art. Artists do.

3) The new eyes will add some complexity to the figure because of the need for additional actors. That leads to the possibility of making it harder to use for the average user, at least in some programs. Maybe we figure out a way to avoid that, and in that case everything I said in 1) and 2) is irrelevant. Additional functionality that comes at no cost is always welcome. But if some glitches remain that users would have to work around in order to have a feature built into the figure that most of them might not have a real use for, that will definitely make some people unhappy.

Quote - And while these eyes may be rather high tech and innovative for the Poser world, it's nothing that experienced people can't easily reproduce with mental ray, for example.

I think experience is the key. My assumption is that most high-end renderers have shader languages that are at least as powerful as Poser's, and thus it would be almost trivial - if tedious - to take bagginsbill's materials setting and translate them into whatever renderer one likes. You don't need an experienced person for that, just someone who can hack the shader.

I have a colleague who wrote a plugin for realistic simulation of ocean waves in Houdini. He didn't invent the method, but he was the first who implemented it in an efficient way. It's open source, so he's not expecting any revenue, but he sees almost verbatim rip-offs of his code for practically every renderer you can think of, and in some cases he's not even mentioned in the comments. He's also been told about his plugin being used in major feature films and advertisments, again most of the time without him getting any credit at all.

Hmmmm.... I can honestly say that I like the way how the problem with the had-edged iris is solved by these eyes. So: Maybe you want at least think about an additional eye-prop? I remember that the "Blackeyes" where a big success back then and many people used them in their renders - so for the one or other portrait artist this extra may really be a pearl.

bagginsbill: My suggestion is you make the eyes so that you're satisfied with how they look, and tell me what kind of licensing you want. Let the rest of us worry about getting them into Antonia.

Quote - Hmmmm.... I can honestly say that I like the way how the problem with the had-edged iris is solved by these eyes. So: Maybe you want at least think about an additional eye-prop? I remember that the "Blackeyes" where a big success back then and many people used them in their renders - so for the one or other portrait artist this extra may really be a pearl.

Yeah, I can totally see the "Bagginseyezes" be at least equally successful.

If you and BB are worried about the license or the whole system being "kidnapped" this could be a sale item as well. There WILL be commercial add ons for Antonia in future (and this is, beside freebies, something that will make her popular!) - so why not create a commercial add on from them and sell it as soon as Antonia is released. This will not prevent any included new technique from being stolen - but at least it's no gray area then anymore.

The trouble is, if something is sold there is an obligation to support it, which changes it from a hobby to a job...

Quote - The trouble is, if something is sold there is an obligation to support it, which changes it from a hobby to a job...

Right! I have made dozens of things I thought about selling, but hesitate because I'm concerned about support time, mostly because face_off warned me the income isn't worth the effort. Some have argued that would not be the case with my stuff, since I heavily support things for free anyway, and that I'd make a lot more than I think I'd make.

I dunno what to make of it.

These files allow you to use texture maps made for MikeJ's UV mapping, for example SaintFox's "SF ToniPolygon" texture set on the 118 Hi figure. The Geom Swapper works by injecting each actor with an individual obj file with MikeJ's UVs. This is latest 117 version of the geometry and is the same as that used in the Antonia-118 Hi Res figure, except for the UV mapping, and the fact  that it is separated into individual obj files. Note that the mapping includes the sclera fix. Note that this package installs a full version of the figure geometry, which is about 6.66 MB.

The package includes a Restore pose to restore the default geometry to the 118 Hi figure. It also includes files to inject the eyes-only  with either the MJ or default geometry/mapping. Don't be confused by the fact that the thumbnails refer to the 117 geometry, Antonia-118 uses geometry labelled "Antonia-117".

I will post equivalent files for the Lo Res 118 figure some time in the next few days.

Thanks again for that, Les!.
I still haven't had a chance to thoroughly check it out, unfortunately. I thought I could make some good quality time for it yesterday but I'm pretty busy with other things right now, but it appears to work as advertised. As I would expect from you. :-)

Quote -
I think experience is the key. My assumption is that most high-end renderers have shader languages that are at least as powerful as Poser's, and thus it would be almost trivial - if tedious - to take bagginsbill's materials setting and translate them into whatever renderer one likes. You don't need an experienced person for that, just someone who can hack the shader.

Okay, I totally get what you're saying there, but I'm not so sure too much hacking would be necessary. Mental ray, for example, already has several "realism" shaders built into it for various purposes, such as the architectural materials for accurate IOR, specularity, reflection, and so on, plus gradient tools, all the math nodes one would expect and SSS and all that good stuff. And Vray is even more advanced in that respect.
Of course I really can't argue with any of this as I really haven't even yet inspected what BB has done in Poser with the shaders. Nevertheless, I have seen some equally good CG eyes out of mental ray, Lightwave and Vray, so I know it's already been done. They're just few and far between because most people lack the knowledge or patience for the level of detail and accuracy like BB has achieved.

I'm still amazed he was able to do it with Poser. I really wouldn't have thought that possible. Now they just need to bring the speed of the render engine up to par and think about creating some actual "material" nodes, which have become more common these days.

odf, I have a question.
I know you answered already but my brain is very tired lately, got the stupid flu again.

Are we going with the latest MikeJ UV map or the one you did originally?

I just finished the set using MikeJ's UV mapping but also adapted it on your original mapping.

now If I can get feeling like finishing the mc6 and pz2 file, I'll bet set.

Oh yes, I need to get the new eye geometry as I made the eye tex on the old one and it does have stretching.

Well since odf's not around, I'll answer that. He said in his "executive decisions" post (several pages back and a week ago ) that the new mapping will be the official mapping. He was just waiting to have some completed texture sets to go with it before doing so.

MikeJ, thank you for the reply.

But I think I am confused on which Antonia we are using now, 116 or 118.
AP118 takes odf's mapping not yours unless I missed a posting on a new AP118.
My brain is mush...sigh.

BlueEcho,

Quote - Are we going with the latest MikeJ UV map or the one you did originally?

odf is going to use the original eye mapping, same as in the 114 and 118 figure, for the eyes only. odf said, quote:

Quote - "Eyes: I will stick with the original mapping, which also works on bagginbill's eyes."

For all other parts he is going to use MikeJ's mapping eventually. odf said, quote:

"UV-mapping: MikeJ's mapping will be the official one, but I can't put it on an "official" preview as long as we don't have a generally available texture to go with it. The one by SaintFox is, until a "final" version of Antonia is released, only available to developers. So at the moment I am stuck."

Antonia is available for anyone to download through the link in odf's posts, but the SaintFox texture set is only available to developers, so if he used MikeJ's mapping at the moment, people without access to the developers site would not have any textures they could use on her.

I guess thet means that your texture set, mapped to the MJ UV's, could be a candidate for distribution with the next release of Antonia. With that in mind I think you should release the mc6 and pz2 with the original odf mapping on the eyes, and MikeJ's mapping on all other parts. I'm sure a version mapped to the original odf UVs for all body parts, would also be appreciated by those of us who are currently using the 118 figure.

Okay, I see where my confusion came in, I forgot what I read on that...lol.

I'll finish the mc6 and pz2 files this evening (unless my flu gets worse...ugh) and if odf wants it for the official release, he is welcome to it. :)

Quote - MikeJ, thank you for the reply.

But I think I am confused on which Antonia we are using now, 116 or 118.
AP118 takes odf's mapping not yours unless I missed a posting on a new AP118.
My brain is mush...sigh.

You're welcome.
And no, it's not just you - I'm pretty well confused at this point too. You have to really stay on top of this stuff or it gets overwhelming pretty quickly. ;-)

But Les just explained all that. I think Antonia should have a daily blog somewhere, where all the current and pertinent information is available in one location.

EDIT:
Hey you know, a Facebook page is what she needs.

FB page would be great.
I use FB too. :)

i'll post a few images soon and odf can decide if he wants to use this one or SF may just update hers to work with this version and want to release it with Toni.

So did I understand this right: The eyemapping will be the one we texturers used for our first sets of Antonia textures? If so I wait until the next generation is released (with the 116 UV mapping except the eyes) and update the texture we have now with "new old eyes" - in other words: With the new eyecolors for the old mapping.

Right! I have made dozens of things I thought about selling, but hesitate because I'm concerned about support time, mostly because face_off warned me the income isn't worth the effort. Some have argued that would not be the case with my stuff, since I heavily support things for free anyway, and that I'd make a lot more than I think I'd make.

I can tell you that I have few people asking for support, I only spend 2-3 hours with replying to customers and most things are just things like "Will this work for me?" or "Do you plan to do thisandthat". But face_off is right as well!! It highly depends on if being a 3d-merchant is a hobby or additional job or a full time job for you.

If you sell your creations as a hobby or for earning money for your hobby the support can be too much - in fact you may find that it is too much work at all for too few money as you end up with two fulltime jobs.

If you consider it being your only job, like I do, the support is just a very small part of your daily work, most of the time you create things, test things and (and this is indeed lots of work) make them user-ready and do advertising. For me the effort pays off, I am able to earn more money than I would be able to earn in most jobs that I am able to get (!) - getting and keeping a well-payed job when you are a woman of 47 years (and maybe with a physical handycap) is not easy in Germany in these days, regardless of what you've learnt and done when you where young. usually you end up as a cleaning woman or in a time-work company, hard work, bad income, lots of money to be spend on transportation, clothes and so on.

So if you have a day-job that pays your needs you may want to stay with what you do for the 3d-world as a "high end hobby" instead of starting a carreer as a 3d-merchant because it is incontestable that earning an average income here needs as much patience, power and discipline as any other serious job.

Thanks, SF. Well, obviously what you described has been my concern. In an ideal world, I would only do CG for a living and it would be a lot of fun. But I am almost certain such a situation would be a financial setback for me, even though I would enjoy it more than what I do. Not that I fail to enjoy my existing work, but that I do not have as much enjoyment doing digital signage or distributed computing or business intelligence as I do making CG toys.

Perhaps I should seek a partner - someone for whom the daily aspect of the CG business would not be tedious and would be financially a step forward. Then I could just do the interesting parts (invent, design, prototype) and hand them off to be finished, packaged, marketed, and supported. I have thought of this several times.

For example, I could make, literally in a few hours, over 1000 perfectly realistic tileable cloth textures - so good that you would be fooled into thinking they are photographs. I have thought to sell such a set of 1000 cloth textures many times. I imagine this could generate revenue around $20,000. But, if I then spend 20 -30 days packaging that and supporting the customers, then I have lost money, compared to what I already do. But not if I handed that off to somebody else and we split the $20,000.

Well... depending on what you do the finishing-packing-advertising thing eats up a quarter up to half of the production time. Creating a character texture from scratch needs (at least for me) more time than the finishing work (I would say thrice as much) - but making a given set of materials marketplace-ready and supporting it may need indeed 10 times longer than creating it, maybe even more.

But before you think of any kind of collaboration you need to find people who know the products you've created as well as you do, and this is what we call the "Knackpunkt"/ the "crack point": How should an "outsider" offer (technical) support for something he does not create by himself...

Here and there I have customers that are completely new to Poser and some of them ask me and in the end need a little walk-through on how to get started, for instance with dynamic cloth. A good readme or tutorial helps a lot here - but sometimes further assistance is needed. IMHO it pays off to spend some time explaining things because what you get is a returning customer and a good reputation. But sometimes you need a high frustration limit because you have to deal with a "yes, but..." person. I am not sure how often this happens to others, I was lucky to meet only two of these people during the last years

...but I do not want to drive this thread off topic!!!

BluEcho: That texture looks great. If you'd like to make it available to go with the next preview, so that I could use MikeJ's new UV-mapping for that, that would be fantastic. Things are getting a but confusing, I have to admit, and I'd love to de-fuse them again. :laugh:

At this point, I thought I'd give a little more info on my current plans regarding distribution and licensing:

For future previews (and later on, the official version), I'd like to cut down the main download to just the bare essentials and add a section on Antonia's website for related content. So for people who can host their own files, I would just put up a link there, and I could even include links to retail content eventually. I'd also offer to host add-on items directly on that site (and it's successor which I'm planning to build some scratch at some point), but only free ones since I don't feel like struggling with the PayPal API and such.

One advantage of that is that contributed content can go under different licenses. For example, I know that many free-stuff providers like to restrict commercial use and/or re-distribution of their content, and that's perfectly legitimate. Also, I got a bit worried about texture maps, because I don't know if the licenses for the original images are actually compatible with the CCAL (side-note: I tried to contact 3d.sk about the licensing, but they seem to be m.i.a. after that hacker attack on their site). Finally, the textures and morphs usually don't need to change between versions, so it's a bit wasteful to include them in each new download.

odf, I'm putting on some finishing touches and just need to do the pz2 files for folk who don't have Poser 5 or above. :)

Exactly when will you need it  and do you want a set with vss as well?

Quote - odf, I'm putting on some finishing touches and just need to do the pz2 files for folk who don't have Poser 5 or above. :)

Exactly when will you need it  and do you want a set with vss as well?

Take your time. I'll be waiting for BB's eyes to be ready, anyway, and there are still some more JCMs needed.

You can make a VSS version if you want to, but if you don't, I'll try my hand at one.

Great.
I want to do a bit more on her, the eyebrows for one thing, I don't like the ones she has.

When she is ready I'll let you know and you can tell me where to post her. :)

I am wondering something...
Although I'm sure MikeJ has done a fantastic job with the new mapping I thought this was made for using Antonia with other applications and that the original mapping would be for the Poser version (as it looks more poser friendly to me)
For us that would like to make textures for the original version only, is there a code name we should use so as not to confuse people?

Quote -
I am wondering something...
Although I'm sure MikeJ has done a fantastic job with the new mapping I thought this was made for using Antonia with other applications and that the original mapping would be for the Poser version (as it looks more poser friendly to me)
For us that would like to make textures for the original version only, is there a code name we should use so as not to confuse people?

I think he did a pretty good job with the UVs although I wouldn't say fantastic. I do know he's glad that the BB eyes will be the official ones, because he's not happy  with the mapping he did for the original eyes. ;-)
It wasn't made specifically for use in other applications. That's how it started, because I wanted something else, but UVs are UVs and all programs will use them the same way when it comes to pinning image maps down on a set of coordinates. While there are advantages for other programs in the new mapping, the converse isn't true - there aren't any disadvantages with them for use in Poser. So it's perfectly "Poser-friendly" but more importantly, it's also more Photoshop friendly when it comes to lining up textures against seams.
Although the whole concept of explicit UV mapping for image textures on models in general is flawed and limited, but that's a whole 'nother subject not worth considering until programs have better procedural materials and faster real time previews...

But to answer the question, Les' geometry switching could be used for that, as long as Antonia's base geometry doesn't change. You could take the newer Antonia with the better joints and eyes and morphs and plug the old geometry into her, and have the original UV mapping.
As for what designation that would have, currently Antonia 118 is the latest version to use the original mapping and textures. I would imagine that the next version will be 119 in keeping with the way he's been naming the incremental versions, but I would guess 118 will remain the last version of the original.
But unless the Photoshop-using texture people I know have been lying to me, the newer mapping makes for easier texturing and less distortion, so you'll probably see more support for new textures with the new mapping.

Just out of curiosity, why do you say the original looks more Poser friendly? As long as the general rules of UV mapping are followed, as far as I know Poser has no special requirements or anything that make one method better or more "friendly" to it than another.

Looks great BlueEcho - I like that "regular girl" look you got there with your textures.

I'd say girl next door, but that might be a copyright infringement around here. ;-)

Hello gang :laugh:

BlueEcho: This skin with it's "marzipan tone" looks extremely versatile! Together with the VSS shader everything from a pale vampire to a dark tanned exotic look seems possible. Very clever!!

Digital-Lion just sat up a subdomain on our server: antonia.german-3d.com. So now she's got her own adress within our homepage. We will host the textures there and you are right: I think it's okay to give away her texture for free, especially on our own site, but I will leave the hint on every texture that it is not a merchant resource. This does not include the people who belong to the developer forum as we are working together on this project and should be free to share what we create to enhance it and to create add-on's. But with offering the texture as a resource to an anonymus group of people may be something that gives us trouble. If I find out something different there's still the option to alter the license for the textures.
Your offer to add links to both, free and commercial add-ons is very welcome

What I would like to know within... let's say until next weekend: Which set of eyes with what UV mapping will be the one that ships with Antonia. Whatever you decide is okay with me - I just would like to know about it to equip the texture set with the correct set of eye-textures and corresponding matposes. When I pick up the eyes again I will fix the eyebrow as well and upload the re-done face together with the eyes so that you all do not have to download two more updates but only one.

MikeJ I didn't have in mind offending your work, which I find very precise and was made very careful, that is a fact!  I just wanted to express my opinion, Having work with many different models I have my options on what I like on a texture tamplate and what I don't. As I said in an older post the perfect mapping for me would be in the middle of the two existing.
So it is just a personal opinion

Quote - MikeJ I didn't have in mind offending your work, which I find very precise and was made very careful, that is a fact!  I just wanted to express my opinion, Having work with many different models I have my options on what I like on a texture tamplate and what I don't. As I said in an older post the perfect mapping for me would be in the middle of the two existing.
So it is just a personal opinion

Oh I wasn't offended at all. I may explain why I do something but I don't have any problem with taking criticism. Actually, it's the opposite for me - I want to know everything that's wrong with something and why someone might perceive it as such, which is why I asked what it is you meant by "Poser friendly".

I was taking classes for Maya, specifically for game design. Between that and the people I met through it and now work with on various projects, there is no amount of criticism I've heard that can bother me anymore. I've had so much this past year I've become immune to it. ;-)

Oh but I agree about the mapping idea. One thing I've learned about that is there is really no "right" way that will work for everybody in all situations. Generally, you want do it to suit your specific needs at the time, for  a particular model.

BlueEcho,

I was a bit concerned about the skin colour in the first images you posted, it looked too cold to my eye, like it needed more red in it. However the image you posted with VSS looks good to me. The other point I want to make is about the nipples/areolae. The center of the nipples looks like quite a bright highly saturated orange-red colour to me, whilst the surrounding areola looks very pale and desaturated in comparison. To my mind it would look better if the colour was evened out more across the nipple-areola.

Of course the above is only one persons oppinion, and thus to be taken with a large dose of salt, or just totally ignored. Humans have a wide range of skin colours, and if the colours you have look good to you, that's the main thing.

Hmm, they may need some adjusting.
I just used the photo reference without adjusting and her skin is pale, almost white while the nipples are darker.

The first postings are the models real skin tones.
she is almost albino and it's perfect for adding different tones with vss. :)

BlueEcho,

Quote - The first postings are the models real skin tones.
she is almost albino and it's perfect for adding different tones with vss. :)

OK, SaintFox mentioned the versatility as well. I guess that can only be a good thing!

I wish I had used her for my Akasha texture, perfect for the vampire look...lol.

Quote - Hmm, they may need some adjusting.
I just used the photo reference without adjusting and her skin is pale, almost white while the nipples are darker.

The first postings are the models real skin tones.
she is almost albino and it's perfect for adding different tones with vss. :)

Pink Irises, white eyebrows, white eyelashes, pale nipples...

...albino might be an interesting look.

Quote - I am wondering something...
Although I'm sure MikeJ has done a fantastic job with the new mapping I thought this was made for using Antonia with other applications and that the original mapping would be for the Poser version (as it looks more poser friendly to me)
For us that would like to make textures for the original version only, is there a code name we should use so as not to confuse people?

Regarding code names, I'm open to suggestions. I've been using 'A' and 'B' suffixes for the original and MikeJ's mapping, where the 'B' will be dropped once it officially becomes the default one. But maybe longer code names would be clearer, particularly when more UV-mappings turn up. Maybe we could use flower names or sumfing? Amaryllis for the original mapping, Buttercup for Mike's, Chrysanthemum for next one that comes up... :laugh:

BluEcho: That rosy skin tone looks very pretty, although I think you might want to tone down the redness a bit and get it more yellowish. I'm not sure though whether it's best to just reduce the SSS intensity, change its tint, or change the base skin color.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the finished texture.

Quote - Digital-Lion just sat up a subdomain on our server: antonia.german-3d.com. So now she's got her own adress within our homepage.

Awesome! Tiny nitpick: you wrote "over 160 sites" above the link to this thread. That should of course be "over 160 pages".  (Aside for non-German-speakers: our word for page is Seite. Since in the early days the terms web page and web site were almost synonymous, and "site" sounds almost the same as "Seite", it's still common in German to refer to sites as pages.)

Quote - We will host the textures there and you are right: I think it's okay to give away her texture for free, especially on our own site, but I will leave the hint on every texture that it is not a merchant resource. This does not include the people who belong to the developer forum as we are working together on this project and should be free to share what we create to enhance it and to create add-on's. But with offering the texture as a resource to an anonymus group of people may be something that gives us trouble. If I find out something different there's still the option to alter the license for the textures.

That sounds good to me.

Quote - What I would like to know within... let's say until next weekend: Which set of eyes with what UV mapping will be the one that ships with Antonia.

I think it's safe to work under the assumption that it will be the original eyes with the original UV mapping. If bagginsbill decides that his eyes would work best built into the figure, we will still have to make them render nicely, if not as realistically, in D|S and such. So I imagine there would be a material collection or pose file that one could load on top of existing materials to enable the Poser-specific enhancements. So by default, we would make his eyes fully compatible, as materials go, with the original eyes.

Here is a new image with the toned down texture.
The hair is the Kozburo Ponytail with a new tex I made tonight. :)

The textures of your erters longer meets the north of person with very light skin color and the second picture, I would consider European skin.

But both then go. Where the lighter you jar file in the groin area above and below this is not quite so bright So do go into more light. Then it goes through as the north of person.

I talk now a little more in the German forum and Antonia Tread there.

I have been following this thread with great interest and the work you all have done is amazing.  This may well be the forerunner of an entirely new direction for poserholics.  Purely in the spirit  of constructive criticism, IMHO the eyes and brows are a tad high and the mouth a tad low for the normal female face.  But anyway, this sure is an interesting project.

Quote - I have been following this thread with great interest and the work you all have done is amazing.  This may well be the forerunner of an entirely new direction for poserholics.  Purely in the spirit  of constructive criticism, IMHO the eyes and brows are a tad high and the mouth a tad low for the normal female face.  But anyway, this sure is an interesting project.

Many thanks on behalf of everyone who contributed! The recent eyeball-blunder and my attempts at morphing after a real person showed me again how incomplete my knowledge of facial anatomy really is. So I'll take your words into consideration. But I think as long as it's only a tad, we're probably fine with what we have for the base shape, and the rest can be done with some morphs.