Attached Link: My Stance on the Big P5 Issue

Philc showed me some cool stuff and certainly had many great things to say about P5 as have others. But, my gut is telling me that this software was just not ready to be released.

Greybro, I'm very confused. You have been a well-respected presence here for a while, and I'm a happy purchaser of several of your products (like Chavez). That's why I took the time to read your posted stance. But in your explanation of why you won't be using Poser 5 you state: "Yeah, I shelled out the $300 + so maybe now those guys can get a paycheck. But, considering the bugs with the version of the software I currently own, those bugs with which I've become accustom (sic), I think I'll forgo being deluged with a whole new set of bugs." The question I have is this: If you are a user of Poser 4, which you must be in order have make product for the marketplace, then why did you have to shell out $300+ for your upgrade? You should only have paid less than half that. Are you exagerrating the facts for effect? Do you own a LEGAL copy of Poser 4? Either way, this discrepancy casts a shadow on your opinion and I hope that you can explain this away satisfactorily. --jjsemp

Interesting! Could be reasons for it but would like to know. Ron

Brent is also entitled to his opinions. Ron

Attached Link: Vote Devil!

But, my gut is telling me that this software was just not ready to be released.

Nooooo .... you think?? ;-)

While a major BUG patch would help a LOT of problems, and make P5 useable, there are some core issues that simply will not be solved. The interface will still be a non-standard GUI, with a host of functionality problems. (Hopefully they CAN fix the FOCUS and CURSOR issues of the inteface with a patch.)

A few issues that speak to the heart of functionality, that are sadly lacking in Poser:

No real UNDO, let alone multiple levels;
No 3D acceleration;
No mouse-wheel or right click support;
No recent files list and directory setup functionality;
Etc., etc.

To me, and I think a LOT of people realize (or are realizing) just this ... P5 appears to be the same old Poser with some (albeit neato) 3rd party apps slapped on top of a decrepit interface.

I have been a Poser user since Poser 2, and have been animating almost exclusively with Poser (a little Max, TrueSpace and Bryce here and there) since version 3. So I am definitely a fan. It is out of LOVE of the Poser concept I reveal such criticism.

_Tim

I suppose your question is fair though from where I sit it sort of feels accusatory. Obviously, we don't know each other that well or you wouldn't be questioning my character like this. My stance on warez is well known. Since I have nothing to hide I will answer you directly. I ordered a full version of p5 and I own a legal version of p4. I run Poser on multiple machines on my home network, as my wife likes to toy with Poser as well. She works upstairs where the kids spend the evenings in front of the TV, and I work down in my basement lair. To operate simulaneous running versions (legally), I have to own 2 copies to be in compliance. So, my wife will continue to play with P4, only now, when I finally do install P5, we'll be able to work simulateously. Hope this answers your question. Regards, Brent

I've been watching the posts, and for every person saying it's buggy there is at least one other it works fine for...like me. Some of the problems seem to be computer specific. And no one has had an actual problem with the security system or eula yet(check out the poser 5 store)

Tirjasdyn, it's just that which concerns me, the seemingly random incompatibility issues. The security is just one small part of my issues with it. Probably the biggest deal to me is that the face room won't work with Vicky and Mike. I didn't realize it was going to be limited to strictly the new models. That is a real drag as far as I'm concerned. So, take away the face room and isn't it essentially p4 with a new render and few other bells and whistles?

Brent I never doubted you! Tim do you really use Truespace? Talk about an interface. Hmmmm, I will take Poser5 thank you very much. Also own Truespace and the last 3 upgrades. I also have to laugh a bit because the LightWave and Max people constantly complain about the interface. Ron

Tirjasdyn:

Regardless, the sheer number of incompatibilities is a major concern. And also, I run a plethora of applications (more than any one OS should have to handle probably) and NONE of them (not ONE) crash or have any other problems. Some of these programs are even more complicated than Poser.

_Tim

Greybro, Your reply does answer my questions. Thanks. Sorry you felt that I was being accusatory, but when you go out of your way to post an opinion and announce it, we all have the right to examine your credibility. It's what enables us to determine whether to VALUE your opinion or not. Ron, I never said Greybro wasn't entitled to his opinion. But I don't know Greybro personally, so I had to ask what I thought was an obvious question. --jjsemp

Tim Would you like me to post a TrueSpace crash, How about lets see Max, Lightwave or Maya? I can do it even with the patches. Or would you prefer Windows or AOL? Ron

GreyBro - you're as entitled to your opinion as everyone else is to flame you for it ;o) Seriously, I'm not even able to BUY P5 yet (serial # trouble), but I'd still like to offer my stance - nothing like a reasonably fresh thread to mess up ;o) All software has bugs - we all know the tech and money reasons for it. Get pissed, then get over it, and get the bugs reported. Good developers don't write bug-free code, but they fix reported bugs fast. Poser became a unique app at v. 3, and v. 4 was out of this world to a figure-starved 3D community. There's still nothing like it, except DAZ' "mystery app" ;o) The CL gang coulda sold their skills and app easily when MC dumped them (look at the rudimentary "Poser" stuff in Cinema and TrueSpace). But they didn't sell - they hung in there. I'm not a loyal follower, I'll switch to DAZ' app if it ever gets here, and turns out to be a better one. But I still remember d/l'ing free P4 upgrades from whatever obscure server Kupa & co. could find for'em ;o) I figure I sort of owe them one. So I'll buy P5, bugs and all, and see how well they iron out the shortcomings before I decide whether it was worth it or not. And so far, bugs or no bugs, fits or no fits, I wouldn't trade my all-too-few years with Poser for any other hobby. I've been drawing and painting for 15 years before P3 seduced me, so I guess I could do my pix without Poser - but I can still re-boot a hell of a lot faster'n I can re-paint, if you catch my drift ;o)

Thanks Ron. Thanks jjsemp. It's cool. Kupa ask me the same quesiton on the phone when I asked what the full price would be. "Why don't you get the upgrade?" I could rant on that whole issue about not being able to run multiple instance on the same network with a single serial. But, I won't. I understand the security reasons for it, but that makes it no less annoying. And I don't want to give anyone the impression that I'm a CL hater or a Poser hater. On the contrary. Hell my site isn't called "Lightwave City" or "3dmaxcity", those names were taken (kidding). It's called PoserCity. Poser is, simply put, the most fun I've ever had with a peice of software. I love it, being a person of negative sketching ability. I remain dedicated to it's evolution and survival as does Posercity.com. But one has to feel that Kupa and the fellas at CL are a crossroads, pivital to the future of Poser. Am I wrong to be concerned? I don't think so.

Eek, Tim! No multiple undo? Feh! I tend to agree with you, the bells and whistles would be nice to play with (shader nodes, collision, etc) but there is a lot to be said about core functionality. For a hobbiest level program, one would expect it to be a bit more friendly in those areas.

oh for christ sake .!! ... and now we are about to witness the start of another conspiracy theory ...grow up for the love of god ... brent i must agree with yure opinion . for the amount of time that was spent .working on poser 5 . i and iam sure alot of people around here were expecting something better in all my time working with 3d graphics programs .. have i never see a 3d graphics package . with NO OPEN GL HARDWARE SURPORT ...and the list goes on ... dont get me wrong though .. i think poser is a pretty good program .. but lets face facts its not 3d studio max .. or maya even . and has a hell of a long way to go to even touch those programs .. alot of artwork in this place is pretty deceptive especially in the poser galleries . yu only need to ask some of the more popular artist here . about the amount of postwork they have to do .. . in my opinion ... istead of wasting there time on things like ..dynamic hair ,and cloth ... maybe they should have got the basics right first.. like a program that doesnt . take a hundred years to render all the while eating yure vitual memory for lunch .. the abality to mutiple select objects . etc etc .. . heres hoping poser 6 will kick ass ..good luck curious labs

These aren't bugs but a wish list. The only bug I've seen is the "focus" bug, though I'm sure it is necessarily a focus problem because you can click through the window. This is hardly a huge but though. and what is the sheer number by your count, tom? I have not seen that many posts that can be considered acutal bugs. As for random the majority seem to be systems with amd chips and nvidia cards or drivers. I pointed out the pattern in an earlier thread. From what I've played with, I see a new program. It LOOKS simular but hardly runs the same. textures are applied differently(I've found it easier to pose then apply where in p4 it was the other way around) Materials now have their own library, which texture maps and new materials can be saved in. The only different in speed has been rendering with shadow maps/shadows raytraced turned on in the new editor. As for the mil/face room thing, that may be a casuality of the seemingly daz/cl split.

3D Software without glaring bugs is possible. I use Rhino 3D and Cinema 4D daily and both didn't crash a single time since I got them (one year ago). Both have multiple undos. ;)

Poser has never had a multiple undo. It's base app works fine for me. Just because it didn't come with various support you wished for doesn't mean it doesn't work.

You said it artdude41. I guess I was hoping for something more like Bryce. You know, Bryce is user friendly but has this mondo cool render engine and can be learned fairly quickly as opposed to max, maya and others. In many ways, I think it's the whole grass roots feel of CL that have the community behind them. The way you can actually IM one of the honchos in Kupa and he'll usually answer you back. I guess I should really with hold my bitching until I get my hands into it. It's just, well you know, the whole Vicky Mike/ Faceroom incompatability thing has really sucked the winds from my sails. I'd like to dream that someday that will change but it doesn't look to be in the cards. I'm still reall fuzzy on how you make a body text to go with the cool face texture you make in the face room too. If I knew more about that, maybe the wow factor would kick in and I could shake the blues. Tirjasdyn, I think the point about the undo's is that it damn well should be more like most major apps. You know, more than one undo.

Well, I have an Athlon with a NVidia graphics chip. So far, Poser 5 has not crashed on me once. The only bug I've encountered has been the focus bug. I would have liked to have seen a different interface, but I can live with the one we got. While it is true that Poser doesn't compare well with Maya in features, it sure does in price. OpenGL preview would be nice, but again, it wouldn't affect the final render. So why is it that important? Rendering speed? Yea, I'm a little disappointed with this. The Firefly renderer can take a long time to render, even with ray-tracing turned off. FWIW, I have an Athlon 1900+ with 1 GB RAM, 70 GB free space on HD. Even trueSpace with Radiosity turned on is faster. Hopefully improvements will be made here. Overall, I think Poser 5 was/is a good program. I am happy with it, and it isn't a doorstop for me.

.

ok, open question to anyone who might know...... how is it, that poser 4 cost 200 DOLLARS to US customers and 200 POUNDS to UK customers....the equivelant of roughly 300 dollars at current exchange rates. And are we in Britain, going to have to pay extra for poser 5 when it finally starts getting shipped here?

"To me, and I think a LOT of people realize (or are realizing) just this ... P5 appears to be the same old Poser with some (albeit neato) 3rd party apps slapped on top of a decrepit interface." I said pretty much the same thing shortly before P5 shipped. Only, at that time I didn't know the additional features were licensed from other companies. I think most people are upset because of built-up expectations followed by a huge let down. But it's not our fault our expectaions were what they were...CL has been making promises for over a year and they didn't come through. The promise of a "brand new program," "written from scratch." Obviously, P5 has not been written "from the ground up." It's got the same OLD interface with its inherent problems and the same OLD core. It's even got some of the same OLD bugs. That's another broken promise: "oh, it'll be fixed in Poser 5." And, I'm sorry, but the "all new software has bugs" excuse doesn't wash with me for two reasons: 1) No, not like this they don't. 2) That was CL's big excuse for taking so long, remember? They were taking their time to "do it right." And people in this forum kept saying, "don't rush them, let them take their time." So they took their time and look what we have. And ron: yes, you can force a crash on software. But you know that's not what we're talking about here. Software shouldn't crash when you're using it as it's supposed to be used. And, yes, even following the manual. These lame, unrealistic excuses aren't going to help make Poser any better. Kupa said he was going to post something about what it took to get P5 out the door. I wish he'd hurry. I would sure like to know what took three years since most of the new stuff wasn't done by CL and the core of P5 is still P4. So what took three years?

And, I'm sorry, but the "all new software has bugs" excuse doesn't wash with me for two reasons: 1) No, not like this they don't. 2) That was CL's big excuse for taking so long, remember? They were taking their time to "do it right." And people in this forum kept saying, "don't rush them, let them take their time." So they took their time and look what we have. Amen Brother!

Would you like me to post a TrueSpace crash, How about lets see Max, Lightwave or Maya? I can do it even with the patches. Or would you prefer Windows or AOL? Ron Ron, no that would be a total waste of time, and prove that you have an incredibly unstable and poorly maintained system. I run Win2K PRO on all machines, they run 24/7/365, and I have never had a BSOD, the system has never gone down, and programs RARELY crash. Most have NEVER crashed. I'm a power-user, and all my rigs are over-taxed with both hardware and software. WIN2K is simply an amazing OS, and properly-coded software behaves without fault. -Tim

,

"These aren't bugs but a wish list. The only bug I've seen is the "focus" bug..."

I never said they WERE bugs ... but they ARE key usability issues that should have been addressed by version 5 for Pete's sake!

Hell, a crappy little program like COOL3D has multiple REAL** UNDOs, right mouse and wheel functionality, and OPENGL 3D hardware support.

Pretty much every application on the planet (not just 3D apps) has a REAL undo feature, where it's appropriate of course.

I'm a HUGE FAN of Poser, so this is why it really bothers me that they're not getting it right, especially after all this time. If you can't see that the software DEFINITELY has NOT been built from the ground up, your loyalty has overwhellmingly blinded you beyond what is reasonable.

-Tim

"Poser has never had a multiple undo. It's base app works fine for me." It doesn't even have a SINGLE UNDO technically ... what you can UNDO is a joke by almost anyone's standards. If you can be happy with the single/broken UNDO Poser offers, my hat is off to you. "Just because it didn't come with various support you wished for doesn't mean it doesn't work." That's true ... but unfortunately, it has been clearly demonstrated it is a faulty product. Kupa himself has stated it shipped with bugs ... and we're not talking insubtantial bugs. Also, the stance that it is an Nvidia users issue is preposterous. NVidia is not the issue ... it is the fact that the Poser 5 programmers wrote an application that does not appear to be very compatible with an NVidia chipset (which occupies what obscene amount of the marketplace?) is the REAL issue. Yeah, it's NVidias fault CL wrote crap code for the display interface. -Tim

okay why are people posting periods and commas, LOL. For the "every program has bugs, doesn't wash with me comment" Not on this scale? And what scale is that? Again I ask for a list of these major bugs in the program, I've only seen one that pertains to everyone and its hardly major. If you don't actually have the program and are listening to the gripes of others who don't have the program, who are you to gripe? As for "it darn well should have had these features" who says, who made the promises it would? And poser is barely in the market of 3ds and maya, truespace et all, and costs a whole h*** of alot less than those apps too. I'm a brycer so the long render time doesn't bother me much lol. No offense on the Amd owners. I just noticed a pattern on those that have had real problems, starting with Vareesh(sp).

Running an AMD here no crashes yet and no offense taken. Ron

Well, Gee, thanks Ron. Those screenshots have made me even more impatient for my copy, which is officially late as of end of busines today to arrive. Didn't realize you could use the morph putt on Vicky so that'sa big plus to me.

Okay I didn't say it was a problem with Nvidia, I said I noticed a pattern with amd AND nvidia users that have problems. I based this off my own experience with AMD chips and video problems caused by them. I have an Nvidia card btw and poser works fine for me. Multiple undos take up memory. P5 is a memory hog, I will say that, perhaps they tried that the memory couldn't handle it, i don't know. If a program doesn't take up alot of memory it makes sense that it can have more undos. Again point me to the demonstration of buggyness. I know what kupa said, but he didn't give examples and I have yet to see one in this forum or any other besides the on focus problem.

Most of the new features in Poser 5 really are just other people's software attached to Poser4. The base program code is probably entirely the same. Really, there comes a time in every software's life, when it has to be rewritten from the ground up, to escape the drag of its own legacy. Lightwave, 3DSmax, Softimage, Maya, they all go through these phases. They try to make the easiest transitions they can, but ultimately they don't stop progressing to the next level. Poser5 was CL's rewrite wakeup call. ProPack was very obviously stretching the issue thin. Hair and cloth are all well and good, but not when you couple it to an aging basic figure rigging format. And for everyone that keeps saying "You can't have feature X in such a cheap program. And thats why we don't in Poser" are very wrong. There are plenty of cheap programs out there that have more advanced rendering, rigging etc for about the same price. What those programs lack is a method of figure content distribution that's as painless as Poser. What they spent that money on instead, is usually a full suite of modelling tools. So its really all about where those companies chose to spend the money, and not about features being too "complicated" "expensive" or "advanced" for a program like Poser. I mean if you rip the Morphing, Rigging, and Basic Rendering out of Maya and sell it on its own, how much is that worth without all the rest? Probably a lot less than the full package. ;)

Man I hate whiners...

If you don't like P5 don't use it. The rest of us are having fun.

We don't really need to know why.

-Jeff

Jeff I was pretty sure the forum was for expressing people's thoughts on issues relating to Poser. Perhaps you'd care to express why you feel someone posting their unhappiness about the program is somehow invalid? Or deserving a derogatory remark of referring to them as "whiners". And if you don't need to know why, then why bother reading this thread? No one's forcing anyone to read, respond, or think what they don't want to.

While I don't have P5, I have certainly found that the ALLEGED undo feature of P4 is a major farce. At least 9 times out of 10 that I have tried to undo ANYTHING, nothing happens. It's so unpredictable and generally uncooperative that I have resigned myself that there simply is NO actual undo in Poser (not even one fully functional level, in any case). Now I hear that P5 is no better. It seems to me this is one of those BUGS that was carried wholesale from P4 to P5 with absolutely no attempt to fix it at all. THIS is "taking time to do it right??"

For once, I would like to see a thread that would be helpful in making up my mind whether or not to purchase P5. I heard so many bad things about Bryce 5, but I bought it anyway and it runs flawlessly on my system. Such a tough decision. BTW, real low blow casting doubts on someone's honesty just because they speak out negatively. It suprises how shitty the "big names" can get and still maintain the respectable status.

AMEN, MALLEN!! You put it a lot more eloquently than I would after reading Jeff's outrageous post. And Jeff ... you're a moderator?? If everyone had Jeff's (and others attitude) NOTHING would ever change! Scary that you're a moderator Jeff. I always though you were more level-headed than this. Look at it on a large scope ... Just think what would happen if no-one complained about how unsafe cars seemed to be?? Or what if everyone was complacent with DOS? Or, regarding one of my top hobbies ... what if everyone was complacent with VHS format and pan-and-scan home video. or ... well, you get the idea. -Tim

AGAIN, I'm griping about it becuase I DO like it SOO much.

I was one of the first people to plunk down my money for the upgrade.

I've got no other personal adgenda. I've got nothing to gain (except, as I hope, a change in programming at CL for at least Poser 6), but I've got everything to lose ...

I'm hoping to do some business with CL, and I realize by criticising their baby it could jeopardize it. However, I am of the mind that they don't take things personally, and to some extent, hopefully appreciate the feedback -- good and bad. After reading and speaking with Kupa, I can honestly say he does not operate that way, but you never know how it will affect someone who is so close to something. Emotions are always risky business.

_Tim

Legume: I have to agree with you there ... not installing it, IS kind of silly. It doesn't crash your system or anything. (Well, unless you're fool enough to still be running a non-NT based kernal OS, that is.) Try it out, maybe you'll be lucky. Even if you aren't, and are "half-lucky" (like me), there are still some fun and POWERFUL things to try out. Since the FACE-ROOM behaves REALTIVELY well for me, I have all but mastered it. It certainly has its fair share of problems, and unexplainable programming decisions, but it is a useful and powerful tool nonetheless. Could it better? HECK YEA! Do I enjoy it? Most of the time. Materials are blast too. There is a lot to do and learn ... it's just a shame the shoddy interface, bugs, and lacking modern-day features get in the way. -Tim

"Only, at that time I didn't know the additional features were licensed from other companies. " No, that wasn't being stated in all the hype, Jackson. It could be gleaned from a web search on the companies named in the downloadable manual credits, but it wasn't obvious. Heh. They probably didn't want people asking rude questions like "What were you guys Doing for the past 3 years?" ;] "Most of the new features in Poser 5 really are just other people's software attached to Poser4. The base program code is probably entirely the same." - Mallen Lane "To me, and I think a LOT of people realize (or are realizing) just this ... P5 appears to be the same old Poser with some (albeit neato) 3rd party apps slapped on top of a decrepit interface." - timeteo1 Interesting observations. That's a conculsion I've been reaching from observation also. Especialy given the Renderer and Shader nodes come from Pixels 3D, the Cloth from Size8, and the Face Room from SI's FaceGen.

Ah... Brent? Legume does have a great point - now that you've spent the $300+ don't just throw it away. That's wasting cash... get whatever use you can out of it for your money. If you're like me, you can't afford to piss dollars away, bro. ;]

Man I hate whiners... Gee that's close to a name calling TOS violation there 8oP~~~ So did they fix the full body morph problems yet?? So uhm..... what have they been doing for 3 years??

"So uhm..... what have they been doing for 3 years?? " Suggestions come to mind, but they'd probably violate something... ;]

Well, maybe the FireFly render is pure Curious Labs. Oops. ;P

Go re-read the TOS or something. ;]p~~~~~~~

I don't have any problem with people griping about problems with the program. It's par for the course and I'm glad you people have never had such problems with other programs (I certainly have) I guess I'm one of the lucky ones who's experience this time has been glitch free. But I think that the main problems people have with people who complain about the problems is the quantity of times new threads are started to complain about the same problems and primarily it is the same people making the complaints. when someone like myself and many others go through the forum we are looking for new info on usability. Im not looking for any manifestos Im looking for positive information if there is a new bug I'd be happy to learn about it. otherwise it makes very little sense to me to bring up the same complaints over and over again.