I would have bought it if it weren't for the registration process. If they dump it, I'll buy it.

Lapis is correct Jack(Hope you are doing well).I was "Warned" that I was tagging(And I have NO idea what that means,other than it was a game played when I was about 5).I was told if I continued to "tag" I would be booted.I was quiet for a bit,but then I thought,too bad,I am stating how I feel.I am doing nothing wrong.It's funny,I remained quiet for a day and the SAME THINGS I brought up are being talked about by ALOT of other people.....Guess I am NOT a "whiner",and"the only one". ;o)

Mimic works fine with Poser 5, so long as the figures are Mimic-capable. This includes the older P4 figures, the Millennium figures (DAZ has an update for them), the new P5 figures (updated by the service releases), and the animal figures which I and others have updated.

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I'd have bought it, but that EULA is too much. I'll see the rest of you in Room 101 :-)

Well, Casamerica, I have to point this one out. Some 2 months ago you hardly attacked me and joked at me because I was complaining (with solid reasons) about the resellers policy for Poser 5, with a concept that I should not criticize the Curious Labs people which are friends to the community, etc, then you stated that I should have had trust in the CL people and give them time, with the trust that one friend would give another etc... and so on. A real heavy attack, especially since I was just expressing a concern that many Poser users in Europe shared. Now I read your messages and I see nothing of those beautiful concepts applied to yourself. I see straight attacks from you against CL, no memory of your pretended friendly trust, and no will to allow them time to set things right. What a difference a couple of months makes in a person's concept of friendly trust, and giving friends the time they need, I have to see. Or perhaps it's not the two months, it's the $10 dollar difference... $10... well you attacked me because I complained of a possible higher expense of $200+ for the purchase of Poser 5... and now you make all this rant for just $10? Really your friendship and trust concepts, should be not that much solid, if $10 are enough to make you forget completely about them. I wish Curious Labs more solid friends then. As for me, I am not disturbed by the $10 difference. I think that CL let me pay a fair upgrade price for Poser 5, already thanked them for this, and this is what was important for me. Now if someone else can buy it for $10 less than I did, I'm happy for them. I do not consider that an offense to me, as long as the price I paid was a fair one. Orio

I am not sure whether or not Codetwister (the creator and developer of The Tailor) is working on anything that is Poser 5 compatible at this time. >> Dan, Will we ever see products geared toward Poser 5 in the DAZ store? For what you say about Codetwister it seems that Poser 5 products will be allowed at the DAZ store. I got really excited about Poser 5 and started beefing up my DAZ content in anticipation to the new program. I was unaware that the companies weren't supporting each other as strongly as in the past. I was expecting to see updates of the stuff I've brought from DAZ for Poser compatibility. For example beside new versions of the Tailor and Mimic geared toward Poser 5 I would have loved to see versions of all the clothing that I've brought from DAZ made into dynamic clothing, same thing with the hairdo's. I also feel let down that Curious Labs didn't integrated the Millenium figures with certain Poser 5 features like the face room. I love my Mike, Vicky, Steph, the gorilla, dragon and hydra and the multitude of clothing and hairdo's I've bought from Daz and I intend to join the Platinum club and keep supporting DAZ, you are an incredible company and I'm very satisfied with what you've offered so far. I'm let down only that what I thought was going to be your next step: Poser 5 content: never was. I also think Poser 5 is an incredible program with a lot of potential and really miss the synergy between Curious Labs and DAZ. In a way I feel like a child in the middle of two parents getting a divorce but as an adult I understand that business is business and each company must do what they feel is best for their future. Hopefully it will be a friendly divorce and both companies will still support each other even though your products are not as well integrated as in the past.

Personally, I'd be plenty torqued off to find out that the Preorder Poser 5 sales "special" wasn't so special only 8 weeks after release. This is why I don't preorder things. To many ways for a user to get burned... or unwittingly pay to be part of a beta test project to fix the darn thing. Nope. I'd rather hold on to my money, avoid having myself and money become a guinea pig for some company and observe the outcome and performance of that program at a safe distance. :o) I am willing to bet that many of CL's customers will think twice before ever "PreOrdering" a product from that company ever again. Of course, PT BARNUM said it best (and seemed to be well adopted by looking in the Beta Test Forum): "There's a sucker born every minute". Jack

Simon, hi, it's me again... you said: "I'm let down only that what I thought was going to be your next step: Poser 5 content: never was." Actually, I am sure DAZ would've loved to have been able to increase profit margins for their company by creating and conforming ready made characters for use in Poser 5. However, if anyone is to be blamed for the fact that DAZ wont be, that blame or disappointment should be directed towards Curious Labs... since their current EULA makes it impossible for DAZ to have any involvement with Poser 5 and any content creation for it. Sorry... but that is why DAZ, DSI and other companies wont be either. Jack

For those of you who haven't read about the problems with the EULA, thinking that it doesn't affect you because you aren't a merchant, THIS is exactly why it does affect you. There are a lot of merchants beyond just DAZ and DSI that are not going to be making Poser 5 product until/if our concerns about the EULA are alleviated. Are we happy about this? Hell, no. It cuts into our ability to make money as much as it cuts into your ability to get P5 product. You probably haven't read much about those concerns here. Renderosity has taken the stance that its merchants have nothing to worry about and has downplayed any concerns. Perhaps Renderosity feels that because they are part of Content Paradise, their merchants are protected against the ambiguities in the EULA. As a merchant, I wouldn't take their word for it. What if you aren't exclusive here? What if you are, but decide to sell elsewhere down the road? What if Renderosity decides not to be involved with Content Paradise anymore? Beyond that, the concerns expressed by more than a few merchants regarding this EULA go beyond Content Paradise. If you want to see the most discussion about this issue (both sides), the best place to see it is here: http://poserpros.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3922 Warning. This thread is 60 pages long, but there are many, many valid points brought up here. And more than just merchants should be aware of what the P5 EULA implies.

Well, Casamerica, I have to point this one out. Some 2 months ago you hardly attacked me and joked at me because I was complaining (with solid reasons) about the resellers policy for Poser 5, with a concept that I should not criticize the Curious Labs people which are friends to the community, etc, then you stated that I should have had trust in the CL people and give them time, with the trust that one friend would give another etc... and so on. A real heavy attack, especially since I was just expressing a concern that many Poser users in Europe shared.<<< No, Orio, my argument with you was that you were gutless and attacked me via IMs. I parodied your attack on CL publicly because, yes, I felt they deserved a chance to make good on their promises. I stated they deserved to be trusted to make good. I still do. I have stated so publicly. But, as I have also stated, that trust has a time limit and the clock is ticking. I offered trust, not blind obedience. >>>Now I read your messages and I see nothing of those beautiful concepts applied to yourself. I see straight attacks from you against CL, no memory of your pretended friendly trust, and no will to allow them time to set things right.<<< No pretended friendly trust to it, sir. I make no apologies for giving them my trust. As I sated before, when given the chance I will always offer my trust to another UNTIL THAT OTHER BETRAYS OR OTHERWISE SHOWS THEMSELVES UNWORTHY OF THAT TRUST. I also made it clear that when that time came, I would not hesitate to call CL on it. That time is rapidly approaching. Everything until then is just a warning call. I offer trust, not blindness. I know when Ive been used. >>>What a difference a couple of months makes in a person's concept of friendly trust, and giving friends the time they need, I have to see.<<< Nothing in the concept has changed from my perspective. But when I begin to feel that trust being manipulated and used, then I will damn well let them know. And if that bothers you, tough. Again, trust does not mean blind obedience. >>>Or perhaps it's not the two months, it's the $10 dollar difference... $10... well you attacked me because I complained of a possible higher expense of $200+ for the purchase of Poser 5... and now you make all this rant for just $10?<<< Did not attack you. The $10 has nothing to do with it. My questions and calls were being made before their email ever went out. Get your facts straight. >>>Really your friendship and trust concepts, should be not that much solid, if $10 are enough to make you forget completely about them. I wish Curious Labs more solid friends then.<<< Wish all you want. Again, get your facts straight. My questions and inquiries to them began BEFORE their email and the announced reduced price. But, then I think you knew that. I guess after youve lied it gets easier the more you do it. casamerica

Hmmm. After reading Dan Farr's post. It got me thinking. Do we really know the true story? So far we are just hearing that DAZ was shunned by CL so they decided to make their own program. Dan said this was started way back in January. So that means since January. DAZ has been secretly building a competing program to CL. And CL probably didn't even know about it until months later. Yet DAZ was still in talks with CL, pretending they were still just a figure making endevor. I get to this conclusion by looking at what Steve Cooper and Dan Farr said in another thread. DAZ was still discussing making content for P5 up until a short time ago. No exact date was given. Which makes this hard to confirm. If this is true. It's typical business practice in America. But it's still ugly. It would make perfect sense for CL to modify and beef up their EULA because of this very fact. But ONLY if they knew about DAZ being in production of this secret program. So I'm guessing someone leaked this info to CL before they shipped P5. Resulting in a much stricter EULA. So I personally have to wonder. Just how innocent is DAZ in all of this? The time tables mented so far make me very suspicious about the whole thing. According to my calculations. January was too far back to NOT be still discussing possible content partnership with CL. Thus making DAZ liars about their good intension with CL in the first place. The whole thing is highly fishy. And the dates spell out a very interesting picture. Of course. It's possible I've watched one too many ep's of CSI. ;-) ScottA

In this thread and others I have repeatedly read comments referring to a controversy between CL and DAZ, that they should work together, that they are being stubborn brats, etc. Well I'm sorry but I just don't understand. As far as I can tell the only major stumbling block is that DAZ fears that the P5 EULA may relieve them of those rights normally due to a content producer- namely, ownership of products they may develop. I find it difficult to think of that as a childish or petty response from DAZ. Frankly, it looks like the ball is in CL's court. Until CL corrects the EULA problem it seems there is little DAZ can do to in terms of supporting P5. - Jack

...So far we are just hearing that DAZ was shunned by CL so they decided to make their own program. You may be hearing that but I have read nothing in the forums to indicate this came either from CL or DAZ. I'm not sure that CL has even made a public comment about this. The only thing I have read from DAZ said that they were concerned about Poser's continued survival. Believing caution to be the better part of valor they considered releasing their own program so that their models would continue to have a market. ...DAZ was still discussing making content for P5 up until a short time ago. And it was also just a short time ago that the P5 EULA disaster became known. Such things have been known to alter one's plans. ...Just how innocent is DAZ in all of this? I'm not really sure what you mean. DAZ has not publicly attacked P5 or CL. They did voice their concerns over the P5 EULA but they can hardly be faulted for that. They did not have to tell us about their future program but did so only to avoid giving the impression of having a hidden motive. When they felt honour required it they revealed their plans so that we might arrive at our own conclusions. Certainly it is true that DAZ may have been working on their program for some time. But since when has it become necessary to make such future plans public or to reveal one's commercial intentions to the competition? I'm not so much confused about DAZ's innocence as I am having some difficulty trying to figure out just what they may be guilty of doing. ...Thus making DAZ liars about their good intension with CL in the first place. I'm having trouble figuring this one out too. On the one hand DAZ owes its very existence to Poser. It is a proven, indeed their only, market. Now they're planning on releasing their own program which may or may not be successfully received by the market place. So you're suggesting that DAZ is prepared to bet their very existence that their program will immediately replace Poser in the users' hearts and souls? Remember that DAZ did not say that their program would be a Poser replacement. They said only that it might be considered competitive with Poser. I may have misinterpreted this but took it to mean that the P5 EULA was so extraordinarily broad that almost anything might be considered competitive or derived content. Frankly, it seems that it would be in DAZ's best interests to continue to support Poser if at all possible. Excepting P5, they seem to be doing just that. - Jack

Regarding the current price, I would buy PPP for the price of P5(from P4), but with all the problems, I have no interest in P5 at any price. I would have bought it when they had the sale, but I was waiting for the release of P5......came really close though:( eric

Jack, There are far more people here saying that DAZ was the victim And CL was the villian. Thus the statement: "Just how innocent is DAZ in all of this?". Your idea that the EULA scared DAZ away makes sense. But that only works within in a certain timeline. Dan's message eludes to a different one That I wasn't aware of. And the games afoot. You prefer to see it a certain way. And that's ok with me. But I prefer to keep analyzing the new data that keeps coming in. I find this whole thing fascinating. Analyzing statements and dates. Theorizing motives and reasons for actions and reactions. It's the kind of thing you'd study in business class. ScottA

I think CL's lack of desire to have DAZ involved in the content creation went much farther back than just these last few months. It takes time to generate product to include into Poser, expecially the level of product that was created for Poser 4. Rather than thinking that DAZ was sneaky, I have a feeling that as the sands of time was running out which would've been necessary to create new content for Poser 5, DAZ finally decided that they would not be the providers of content for P5 and began to make steps to create a product of their own to match their content and/or expectations. I believe that the conversations that DAZ continued to have with CL was NOT about new content, but rather the current content of previous versions of Poser and their permission for CL to alter those meshes in some way without violating any contract with DAZ who in reality owns that geometry. No. I don't see anything done on the part of DAZ as being shaddy or untrustworthy, but I just can't say the same for the other player. DAZ could've completely stopped the release of CL altered geometry, which would've greatly effected the worth of Poser 5 or even the release of it (which might've solved allot of issues). But that is all I am going to say for now, I am going to bite my tongue... but only for now. Jack

Uh oh. I'm caught between two Jacks. ;-) It could have played out that way Jack (Jack D.K.). I'm just not that trusting of either side. Hell of anyone. ;-) I see too many red flags at this point to clear either side. But that's ok. Like I keep saying. This isn't an emotional battle for me. I find the whole thing fascinating. And prefer to keep poking through the ashes. New statements just confirm to me. That we don't know the whole story. ScottA

I agree with you Scott (surprise you some?? LOL ) that NO we aren't getting the full story and probably wont likely get the full story and even if we did, it would probably come to a point to try and determine which one is "truthful" about it or not. Some of us are a bit more clued in as to what actually happened or why the story might not be mentioned publicly, but... alas... it again comes down to picking sides. I totally agree!! It is interesting and I think it is going to be a very interesting ride for the Community in the coming months and it will be interested to see if it divides or remains as it is. Basically, the whole thing is slowly boiling down to a popularity contest and knowing this Community like, the both of us do, it's not going to be pretty or enjoyable... but interesting to witness and add to our "journals". Jack

It is an interesting study isn't it Scott. I've been an imaging director fo far too long I guess, but this one is facinating. One's trying to build an image, the other is trying frantically to maintain there's. Time will tell! I have my predictions based on what is known so far. As of today...DAZ 1...CL -5. Perception is reality.

A Negative Five?? Man that's harsh... but probably on the mark. :o) Jack

Hrrmmmmmmmmmm............... ************ "You guys just don't know what's really going on at CL. Everything is just hearsay. And that seems to generate a lot of avoidable problems. If you guys were a bit closer with the company. You'd have a better understanding of the problems they have to deal with. And why they do what they do. I guess I know too much. But not quite enough. ;-)" - ScottA ****************** "Steve...... Please do explain all of the hurdles you've had to go through just to get where you're at with P5. Nobody belives me. :-) But then again. I didn't exactly give them any specifics either. I didn't know what I should and should not say in public. I sincerely believe that if you open up to the community. Tell them what's going on from day to day. They will back off a bit and not be so harsh to you guys. People will still complain. But it will be different. You will be working side by side with them. Remember the good old days when you guys hung out on the Poser list? The only thing you did differently back then was talk to us more often. But it made all the difference in the world. I realize that you can't talk about things sometimes because of competitors lurking in the shadows. But that doesn't mean you can't shoot the breeze with the community. Or talk about what's working or not working. If not you. Then hopefully someone can be assigned to the task. I sure do miss Ollie who used to run the Poser list. He was a great CL rep. ScottA " **************************** From that to "I'm just not that trusting of either side. Hell of anyone. ;-) I see too many red flags at this point to clear either side. But that's ok. Like I keep saying. This isn't an emotional battle for me." - ScottA Seems like quite a switch. Whatever happend to "Gee! But Mr. StayPuff would NEVER harm us!" ? ;]

I feel fairly certain that we don't know all the details, because it would be silly for either company to tell us all about their internal decision making process. I >am< fairly certain that there is much, much more than meets the eye here.

I'm absolutly sure that all of them have some smelly secrets in their basements. Its the tip-of-the-iceberg principle, the shit we see flying is only the top layer of a really big dunghill.

BTW with all of them I don't mean only CL and DAZ. There are some more players in the game...

I like your analogy MadYuri. Sounds like something my dad would say. Gruff and to the point but capturing the essence just the same. My observation I make is that one of these players in sitting on a bigger pile.

My best instincts tell me not respond here. My coworkers tell me not to. But there are comments here that seem to represent a mission to cause harm to our company or to DAZ. I'm sorry people get caught up in this kind of speculation. There are no lingering hidden secrets that I know of. There are no hidden EULA agendas. The people working at Curious Labs take the communities' statements very seriously. These are not evil mysterious people wondering who to take advantage of next. These are incredibly hard working people who truly care about their product and are struggling through hard times in the economy like everyone else. We're sorry if some of you choose not to believe this. We'll do our best to change your mind. Curious Labs is perfectly willing to work with DAZ and has been and continues to sell DAZ content on our store. We have ongoing discussions to help get their models more compatible with Poser 5 advanced features. We've been up front with DAZ on everything we've been working on at all times in our development. We've told them exactly what features we've been working on, and what models we've been building. DAZ has decided, since January, not to support Poser 5 for legal reasons of their own invention -- long before our EULA even existed. How is this the fault of Curious Labs ? And how does this make anyone in the community happy ? We modified our EULA to protect theft from others as I've explained before. We have been investigating our EULA with a lawyer to see if there are ways we can simplify and clarify because of the way some people want to read it. If it's possible, we will do it. But we have no hidden agenda with our EULA. We've stated it many times. When DAZ/Zygote's own models were stolen by another company, WE lost in front of a judge trying to defend their geometry because we didn't have specific clauses in our EULA. We changed our EULA to help the community and DAZ -- and we get it turned around against us. It's really a shame because we have absolutely no ill intent whatsover. Geometries built by you are copyrightable and sellable. We say it every time we're asked, you don't want to believe it Jack. Textures made by you - copyrightable and sellable. Morphs, Copyrightable and sellable. Animation sets, copyrightable and sellable. One company steals models shipped with our application and we can't stop them without a EULA. Copyright settings in our appication? Can't be done. If we (or the courts) allowed that, you wouldn't be able to sell a clothing figure that worked with a DAZ(or other) model because that group (or other) could claim they own the proportions, or some joint angle, and you can't sell something to work with their model. That's why we changed the EULA. It had nothing to do with us versus DAZ. We had no idea they were working on software when the EULA was written. It was written to maintain free trade for supporting figures and prevent theft of stolen geometry and textures -- not prohibit free trade. And it was written under legal advice. Content Paradise is designed to be a system to help make it easier for people to find available content through multiple content vendors and for content creators to more easily get their work found. We are excited about it, and once you experience it you will be too. We hope to bring this live very soon. Why in the world would we want to inhibit sales of content ? The brokering partners we have coming in to it are thrilled to be part of it -- and there are many of them -- Renderosity, BBay, Turbo Squid, and others. We're doing everything we can to help make availability of community created content easier and faster. We would have loved to have had DAZ be part of this, and still do. We think the community would benefit from this heavily. Our percentage from this system will barely pay for the costs to maintain it in our estimation. We did it because we believe it will make using Poser a richer experience -- and it will greatly help many users who have no idea of the wealth of content that is available on forums like renderosity. It will open up markets for content creators that they didn't know existed. Over the years, we have probably spent more than $200,000 for content/production services from DAZ/Zygote. And we didn't even own the full rights to the content generated. The same models we paid to have built for Poser were then repackaged and sold for competing applications. We weren't mad. That was what we got for the deal we made. We would like to see Michael and Victoria supported in our face room. At the time people refer to, we had no one available to do the work, and all of our staff was swamped with what they had to do. The truth is it was going to cost us money to support an engineering effort to support their products and their sales at that time -- a time in which they were already under way to make their own Poser-like software. We must be screwheads to suggest that we get paid for several months of work (amounts are exagerrated as to what they would have been since no suggestion of price was offered from DAZ). In reality, it wasn't of serious enough interest to DAZ at the time to even suggest a price, and we hadn't worked it all out technically yet on our end. They had already made up their mind in January. We have continuing and open discussions with DAZ. We'd like to see compatible formats and complementary features in all models and applications produced by both companies -- and everyone else. I believe DAZ would like that as well. There is plenty of room for everyone to have the tools and models they want to use to create their artwork. We are not choosing to shut DAZ out of Poser 5. We have offered to clarify any EULA problems they may have. If they want to support Poser 5, we're more than happy to support them on it -- even if they are writing software as well. We work to support 3DMax and Lightwave and Cinema4D and Maya (yes we have more work to do on these to bring them up to the level of Poser 5 -- we know and we ARE working on it). And yes, we are working on a Mac OSX as well. We spend a lot of time in our engineering efforts, and in our QA, to make sure the DAZ models are supported inside Poser. If those are some of the models you like to use, we will do our best to make sure Poser handles them correctly. Service Release 2 Beta 2 of Poser 5 should hopefully go out tomorrow. It has additional fixes for compatibility with DAZ and other models (in addition to rendering speedups, memory reductions, and other stability improvements). We do not have support for Michael and Victoria in the face room for Poser 5 yet. We are discussing this technically with DAZ now and would love to see it happen and have put forth offers to help make it happen. We're all for it. It's not a two day task. We are also sorry to see negative Poser 5 statements. We are busting our butts right now to correct some problems -- many of which went undiscovered through our 80 beta users. The final SR2 update will improve many things including great improvements in the new renderer. We have been addressing the specific operating system crashes on some machine and have fixed every case we've been told of and could reproduce. I think people are enjoying being negative right now while snipers run loose and the stock market crashes, but Poser 5.0 has many streamlined features and fantastic new capabilities that people are just discovering. We believe it to be a great product, and so do many users. We may have made some unfortunate choices in default settings (including a much higher resolution figure, full tracking, and skip frames off) which gave people the impression of sluggishness, but in fact Poser 5 has the same or better interactive speed as Poser 4, and all of the old rendering options are available if compatibility with the past is needed. There were specific cases that were causing the new renderer to bogg down and allocate too much memory. The SR2 update will improve many of these. Enough said. Enjoy, Larry Weinberg

Tell your staff you did the right thing posting here. People just need assurance. Its human nature. I am very glad to hear your obvious passion for this software. Keep the lines open like this, keep rocking on the software, and the negativity will melt away. You have been honest and forthright in your post here and I appreciate it. I know your busy, but please keep us updated. This will absolutely boost user confidence . Silence can be percieved as not caring and in todays marketplace, perception is reality. Tonight you have made an important step in changing that perception. Good on you mate!

I agree with Lapis Larry you did the right thing posting a reply. Some of us who actually bought Poser5 really do want to see it succeed in a big way.

"If they want to support Poser 5, we're more than happy to support them on it -- even if they are writing software as well. We work to support 3DMax and Lightwave and Cinema4D and Maya (yes we have more work to do on these to bring them up to the level of Poser 5 -- we know and we ARE working on it). And yes, we are working on a Mac OSX as well." HI Larry Ive Been a poser user since Fractal designs poser2 Ihave no time for nor interest in, any of the contrived Drama or conspiracy theories Surrounnding this DAZ vs CL subject. BUT im am a MACINTOSH user running OSX 99% of the time and i was wondering if there is any chance that you GUYS could "Carbonize" the current FREE propac plugin for the OSX version of cinema4DXl and let us import poserpro 4 animations into our OSX version of cinema4DXl?? I know a whole community of C4DXL MAC die hards who would BUY poser4 pro as a character animation plugin for C4D. and you could unload more of those old copies of poser4 pro$$$$. Just a thought. **-wolf359 founding member of "the 12 animators"-**

As the man who invented Poser and broke his butt to give this community the P4 improvement patches when Metacreations was dumping it, your words carry great weight Larry. You should communicate with these forums more often as Lapis suggested above.
And while CL is working flat out to fix the bugs, it is not really appreciated by the community unless there is feedback. It may well be worth the effort to sacrifice some development time in favour of much more feedback on the problems. Even simple responses to problems such as "we know about it and have a fix which will be released next week."
It is really easy to get totally frustrated and go crazy in the dark and much of the anger and negativity being expressed here and elsewhere is directly related to little or no feedback.
In addition this has a strong cumulative effect on prospective P5 buyers who get turned off by the whole process. So do all of us a favour and bombard the forums with answers to the problems being expressed and get the tutorials out ASAP.

Regards
STORM

Thanks Larry.

One of the main reasons I'm mad is the recurring trend to take the community for a ride. DAZ, CL and others snipe at each other in many threads, but we don't see the underlaying details. This is the reason for many rumors, much panic and overall confusion.

I really hope things are not beyond remedy, there is much to be said about: 'United we stand, divided we fall'.

I will look into the C4D on OSX concept. Thanks for the push. We have some technology pieces ready for OSX, so this may be doable in the near future. Of course Poser 4 Pro will never be on OSX. That will have to wait for Poser 5. We do try to stay involved in the forums. Several of our people post often actually. I get scared usually :) We are also trying to direct issues of bug fixes to the beta forum so that it is easier for us to keep up and provide good feedback. That's why Renderosity set up the SR2Beta forum. Thanks for the kind responses and being part of this crazy thing. Larry

Jane stop that crazy thing! Get some rest Larry. Rome wasn't built in a day. Cyber Rome perhaps not not that real place in Italy. Goodnight

Man I'm stuttering on screen again. Goodnight.

I spoke to Larry a few times in emails a few years ago before I joined here.He was honest,informative,and cool then,and he is now.Thanks Larry.P.S.For some reason when I try to run Walk Designer with Mike2 it freezes and I have to re boot my PC.Same for rendering,(takes forever).So far he won't work at all there.Will the fixes fix that?I thank you for saying you will try to make him and V2,et all,compatiable with ALL the rooms in Poser5.Hopefully we can get the same resolution for the heads as we have with the bodies.Will the technical retards(me,I admit)be able to say,place the proper pictures(front and side) in the face room and add the new head to the M2/V2 bodies like we want to?That is what we are hoping for.Again,Thanks for talking to everyone.I can't wait to recieve the Patch CD,since I really can't use the program since I purchased it.I am looking forward to finally use Poser5 like it was meant to be used,and I hope CL and Daz work things out.I love Daz and Mike2/Vicky2 so their inclusion into Poser5 means alot.I/We, appreciate the post.

Thanks Larry, your post is very re-assuring. Thanks for letting us know you are willing to fully integrate the DAZ models, to me than speaks a lot about Curious Labs commitment to the community. I know DAZ wants the best for the community too. I know both companies can work things out and we can get the most of each of your wonderful products.

"We have continuing and open discussions with DAZ. We'd like to see compatible formats and complementary features in all models and applications produced by both companies -- and everyone else. I believe DAZ would like that as well. There is plenty of room for everyone to have the tools and models they want to use to create their artwork. We are not choosing to shut DAZ out of Poser 5. We have offered to clarify any EULA problems they may have. If they want to support Poser 5, we're more than happy to support them on it -- even if they are writing software as well. We work to support 3DMax and Lightwave and Cinema4D and Maya (yes we have more work to do on these to bring them up to the level of Poser 5 -- we know and we ARE working on it). And yes, we are working on a Mac OSX as well." Well, if there was any doubt, I guess the Mac users now know where they are on the totem pole. Hey! Ow! You're standing on my head!

Interesting post Mr. Weinberg, interesting. One thing though. "But we have no hidden agenda with our EULA. We've stated it many times." You can state it in the forums until you're blue in the face and people's eyes are bleeding, it means nothing here. It means EVERYTHING on your EULA. YOU, might not decide to enforce any of the potential within your EULA. But who's to say that someone buying the company or product won't? Sorry, reassurances are so much vapour when they're posted in a place like this. Who's to say that in 6 months you haven't been bought out by another company MUCH more militant who WILL enforce the legal verbiage? Not going to happen? Hostile and non-hostile take-overs happen all the time. Don't mean to be belligerent but too many reassurances have failed to materialise as well as promises that haven't happened. It makes for a jaundiced audience. We'll see. There's still a lot to happen yet and the next few months will be very interesting indeed, not least of which will be Content Paradise and some other developments that are occurring. As for Daz. I find your words curious. You complement them and say you're working together in one hand while sniping at them with some clever rhetoric in the other hand. However that's all moot really. It's nice to see something from someone who still has some justified respect comment on this, and I agree wholeheartedly with some of the other people here that yes, you guys do need to lose a few minutes development time to answer the generous people in the beta forum who are trying to help you, it's nothing more than respect and common decency to answer them, even if it's just a few seconds to say "thank you, got that"... in a thread. Think about it. You'll find some of the flak might die off if you make that small effort.

{What it all comes down to is that instead of using the 3 years to recode Poser from the ground up...} Don't forget, that during that "3 years", CL developed and released Avatar Labs, which was very well-received by the Adobe Atmosphere users... all 10 of them agreed that it was a great product! {This morning I got an email from Curious Labs letting me know that the price of Poser 5 has been reduced. } What?? I paid full price for a buggy piece of software and NOW, if I had waited, I could have paid less! I am liking CL less and less every day! Maybe we should all complain (louder) to egi/sys, CL's parent company. Or sell the stock short- the way CL is treating its core audience/ market, I don't think they're going to be around too much longer {I am willing to bet that many of CL's customers will think twice before ever "PreOrdering" a product from that company ever again.} Um, Jack, I think that should be "...customers will think twice before ever ORDERING a product from [CL] again." As for DAZ not having a copy of P5, I can believe it. I've heard rumors that they're hiring people to write "tutorials" for P5. That way, the "writers" use the program, figure out how it works, find all the bugs, and report back to DAZ. And DAZ themselves never touches the P5 program. {We hope to bring [Content Paradise] live very soon} Yes, thanks, for the update Larry. Thank you for telling us that things that should have worked with the first release of P5 (Content Paradise, Lightwave/ Vue/ 3D Max plug-ins, P5 for Mac) are coming "soon". No approximate release date, no estimated date, but "soon". You do know that "soon" should have meant September (or even October). Now, we are approaching November (and 2 months after the release of P5) and these features (including "Content Paraside", a major "feature" listed on the Poser 5 box!) will be ready "soon"?? Okay, whatever. I'll believe it when I see it. And, like the SR2 beta, will you be needing people to pay you to be beta-testers for these features? And, thank you Larry, for addressing our concerns over the price reduction in P5. From all of us pre-ordering people (who can't get a refund for the difference), thank you. There's nothing like paying full price for something, and then, 8 weeks later, see it go on sale. (For everyone else, that was meant as sarcasm- Larry never said a word about this issue.)

Lol IB. Funny how you interpret things to fit your own point of view. But then, that's what you always do. Thanks for posting this Larry. I wasn't aware of a third party that stole the meshes. That whole situation sounds awful. ScottA

Sounds to me like a public pissing contest, and doubtless it will be us that get hosed in the end. As for the DAZ program, I suspect that much like Nvidea before them, (who've been talking up a similarly non existent product) they are doing it to "queer the pitch" in the hope that people will put off buying X to buy the "soon to be released..." Y it's what people in many other industries have been doing for years, (including MS) it's nothing but FUD, (Fear, Uncertainty & Doubt) Me? I'll "believe it when I see it" I've probably been as guilty of "tagging" as the next man, but I do believe that CL will see us right in the end. It's a shame that they felt the (financial) need to release it early, but "them's the breaks" As for the price cut, I figure they need more cash. I also pre-ordered, so I'm not getting my nose all bent out of shape over a few bucks, it cost me over the odds from egi.sys anyway. Move along, move along, nothing to see here...

Thank you Larry for your reply... :: Please let us know when the EULA works out so we might be able to support your "Awesome" program. John Render said: "Um, Jack, I think that should be "...customers will think twice before ever ORDERING a product from [CL] again." I stand corrected and believe you are right. My bad. :o) Praxis, no offense bud, but to accept a situation like this (pay for none working application, be subjected to Beta Testing the product you paid for and expected to work, and accept that company to slash it's price giving other future users better deals), invites other companies to adopt the same priniciples. Here is a kind and helpful bit of advice to Larry and crew at Curious Labs/Egi-Sys.... 1.) Start replying to your paying customers who are working their asses off to make sure the money they paid you was worth it. No shit the economy sucks, you think your company is the only one hit by this? I can very well believe allot of the Customers who just bought your buggy software, parting with money they might not have been able to afford, have their own Economic crisises going on at home. You could at least show those people support by answering their posts. You aren't the only one hit by this Economy. 2.) Plan on finding interesting ways in which to award the Pre-order purchasers of Poser 5. Those people cared enough about your company to send you money for an application with the expectation of it working, supports your company by accepting those conditions and help you to work to fix them. Those people need to be compensated for their time. You are expecting too much if you are looking for a hand out while running a business. Treat them with the same respect and support that they are showing you. 3.) Read your own EULA... oh, and while you are at it, also take a look at your "Private" beta test forum, before you start pushing your woes of "undiscovered" bugs off on the original beta testers. I wont allow any of us 80 people be accused of not doing our job!! I have much more... but I will be compiling them. Thank you for your time, hate to have bothered you. Jack

Larry, Thanks for posting your message. I'm not suprised you were advised against it, it seems some of the community here claim they want CL to comment, only to pounce like hungry wolves, and try to tear any comment to bits. I'm happy with my purchase of P5, and I'm sure a lot of other P5 customers feel the same way. Zero bugs would have been nice, but at least you are all working hard to fix, which is all that can be expected now the product is out of the door. I think it's a shame that some content providers feel they cannot provide P5 content at present, I suspect they are already losing sales to people like myself, who have moved on from P5, and are looking for content which uses the new features. As more people move from P4 to P5 there will be less market for products which are limited to P4 (or similar) applications. I hope this can all get sorted out soon. Cheers Ian

Jack K -- I honestly want to get to the bottom of your fury and hope you can suggest some specific things that you'd like to see improved in the near future. Let's be constructive. I asked our QA what bugs you reported during our beta process. You logged bugs #7, #8 and #141. Bug #7 was an installation problems that caused Poser to not launch. Bug #8 verified that you got it working. We then fixed several installation problems to help prevent the situation. Bug #141 was called "Render Engine went Poop". This involved two things to our knowledge: a crash which was fixed, and a problem in our explanation of how to set up reflections. We took your frustration of the unfinished material room to heart, and we added HTML help windows to the material room (and other rooms) to help explain the basic setup of Ray Traced reflections because the steps involved were not obvious. We agreed with you and spent days on addressing it. We weren't planning on HTML help windows until your feedback. You helped us to improve the product. Jack, that's all the specific files and problems that you reported to us during the Beta period that I am aware of. Specifically, what would you like to see Curious Labs do to improve things in the coming months ? Do you want to help on this, or is your mission here simply to try to damage our reputation ? Seriously. We are actively working on addressing any issues which cause people grief. We take the EULA conversation seriously as I've said. Our last quote from a lawyer was that it would cost us $10,000 to redraft it with a specialist. As I said, we are looking into a clarification that we will post once it is finished that will make our intended stance clearer, and still protect us and our partners from theft of content -- which unfortunately has happened already to Zygote's content. The geometries were re-triangulated and resold as another commercial package and we couldn't stop it because our earlier EULA wasn't clear in a judge's opinion. Larry

"My best instincts tell me not respond here." - Larry Weinberg. You probably should have followed your best instincts. "Lol IB. Funny how you interpret things to fit your own point of view. But then, that's what you always do." shrug I interpret what I read, and I read you talking out of both sides of your mouth. But then, that's what you always do.

Larry, Is there any chance you could say who that was who stole the meshes? I'll understand if you can't. But if you can. I'm very curious to find out who did that. Thanks, ScottA

Hi IB.

Scott, CL already stated elsewhere that it was somebody outside the US. Probably nobody in this community. Larry, $10,000 sounds like a lot. Perhaps if you offered less, your lawyer would negotiate the fee?

Larry, I would very much like to be constructive and get down to the root of my feelings so that we can work them out and help to increase the value and support for Curious Labs and Poser 5. Good to know someone from CL is interested in learning what my frustrations are. Obviously you are taking a big risk here and I appreciate that. That is why I want to make absolutely sure with you before I state anything that I have the ability to defend myself regarding my bug reports in your Beta test forum which was covered by NDA. Can I, be waved from that hold so that I can properly express myself, since all eyes are now turned to me expecting a reply to your public question to me in this thread? In short, can I discuss things that happened during the beta test. Jack

And, like the SR2 beta, will you be needing people to pay you to be beta-testers for these features? Automobile manufacturers have recalls all the time. These are problems only found when many, many people are using their products.

Jack -- I don't see a need for you to defend yourself here. You've helped us in the past during our Beta period as I've stated. It helped us to improve the product. I brought up your specific bug reports to re-emphasize that we have, and still do, address every serious bug or problem that is brought to our attention in a helpful format. You've obviously had reason to be frustrated and I'd be glad to help problems go away with changes we can make. You've expressed this enough here that I think it's time we talk one on one. If you'd like to talk to me personally about the past, you know how to contact me privately and I'd be happy to discuss specific problems that you may have had with us or with any of our employees specifically. There's no need for that in this forum. I think it's innappropriate. I see no reason to undo previous NDAs. I think we've tried to address specific attacks to our reputation here, and if you have a real interest in helping Curious Labs, than you can express your deeper complaints to me in email or on the phone. I'd be happy to spend the time with you. Larry