Attached Link: http://www.pixelfader.com

Well i know i'm going to get some criticism for this one but here goes, as anyone else as uninspired as i am with regards to what they've seen at Renderosity lately. There have been a few good images in the gallery but it seems everyone is doing the same stuff. That pertains to marketplace and galleries etc. I see more light and face sets than I can shake a stick at and 99% of them are just mainpulations of the dials. Galleries are made up more and more of portraits rendered in poser with a shadowy lighting set-up and no real customization beyond whatever "bought" texture the person has gotten. Is this art? Or is it using someone elses work and showing it off? I also see an rediculous amount of advertising in the galleries for this and that product. Which is basicall the renderosity community feeding off each other. This is not to say that everything is that way, there are still the standbys' that continue to turn out amazing artwork and once in a while a peace in the marketplace worth buying but i've just been very uninterested lately....it'll pass i'm sure. No more bitching for me...lol

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=266913

... we'd see this:

As i said, there are some peaces that are amazing. Just too much else thats all the same....

You might want to take another look at that one, rudipooimf..Someone mentioned in the comments that you could never do something like that in Poser, but I'm betting you could in P5 - it would just take so long, you might as well go ahead and paint it

i've put a lot of thought into these kinds of things as of late... not quite sure i'll be able to say this in a way that all facets will make sense to all people who might read it, but: inspiration, or the lack thereof... there are a lot of "pretty" images out there, and images that seem to be striving for that technical perfection, and images that are patterned directly off of other artist's compositions [think Royo], etc... but what truly seems to be lacking in the art that is generated as a whole is the art of storytelling or engagement of the audience... technically sound and "pretty" pictures i suppose have a place, but give me imperfection any day that engages me, makes me want to see more [the next picture frame] or "hear more of the story", makes me curious, makes me FEEL anything over all the pretty pictures in this world...

Attached Link: Art Theory Forum

Because I'm amazingly unobservant, I just discovered Renderosity has an Art Theory Forum, and, on it, Lyrra posts "Ten Gallery Images to See that You May Not Have" which crosses gallery boundaries and brings forward some really well done graphics that may have escaped notice while everyone is obsessing about who is and who is not on the Hot 20, and who is and who is not an artist (which is a horse beaten so dead I'm surprised it can still struggle to its feet). It seems to be that finding the graphic artists who are doing something original and sharing them with other people is much more beneficial than bleating on and on about how there is no art on Renderosity. I'm not an artist, and will never claim to be one, and I'm not egotistical enough to say that I can tell the difference between good art and bad, but I will say that there are graphics being posted that make me pause and admire the creative spirits behind them. They are there. You just have to dig past the cliches to find them. Thanks Lyrra....I'm going to be checking back. :)

Um. That is a painting. A real one. The point is made by the PRODUCT CREDITS. Read Rembrandt's remarks in the comments. Jeez.

This is more of a training ground for would be artists and hobbyists than anything else. If you want "real" art this not where you should be. Plenty of sites out there by professions, if that's what you're looking for.

Training ground or not, a part of me agrees with rudipooimf. I find myself viewing less and less images every month. Beginners or professionals - that doesn't matter. I just want to view works that somehow speak to me... and unfortunately there seems to be less and less of those. Why? I have no idea. I see the same thing in my own works. They're not particularly interesting, they're lacking the spark. As soon as I figure out why, I'll do something about it. In the meantime I'll just sit and wonder.

Attached Link: My CG Doodles

I actually don't use the Galleries to show off my artistic talent. I post images there just to play around with a model I've made. Like saving doodles in a sketch pad. So most of the images aren't really my best work. Perhaps other people are doing the same thing. And you are expecting everything to be high quality? ScottA

I agree with spratman.....most of the things in the galleries are peeps having fun and practicing. There's nothing wrong with that. If you are looking to get "inspired" by someone else's work then maybe you should question whether you are an artist either or just having fun with it...

What exactly IS 'real' art anyway? After taking 4 Art history classes for my Fine Art degree, I still don't know the answer to that one. I know what I like, I know what I don't. It's very subjective. NY Mayor doesn't like a Black Madonna with dung and pulls funding saying its not 'real' art. Phooey! I keep seeing threads in the Poser forum about its not pure Poser, it's not art, its all a MP. I click on these peoples username to see their galleries, and often (not always) they don't have anything posted to see. If you want change, and you think you know what 'art' is, then ask for more of a particular style. Be the one that changes and floods the galleries with pictures in the style YOU like. Send out a Challenge. See what people can do. As for this being a pro or hobbiest place, different forums here have different people in them. Some are VERY proffesional people in the 'business.' I love reading these threads. I don't think its a Flame war and I always think its on the topic of Poser. IF you want change, then be a rebel and post, and request, and challenge. Good subject, interesting ideas. Now it's time for me to get back to work. :)

I walk into art galleries and rarely see what I like. I wander through the Poser galleries almost every night before retiring and I actually think the work is improving. There are some nights that I want to shew ground glass so I won't write down exactly what I think of the drek and some nights my hands fall off complimenting. I expect less of Poser-- because it has a strong taste of hobby but then it always surprised me. There has not been a night where I have not seen something that inspired me-- that's enough. There's also not been a night when I've not seen totally flushable crap. Big deal. I think some of the feeling of "it's not enough" may be one artist going through a period of growth-- Yeah, I'm thinking of you Eowyn-- and not knowing where the next change is going to take him or her. Nothing looks good then, because it's not what you want to do. You know, most confident artists probably wouldn't cruise the galleries at all-- it would probably be a waste of time to them, they know what they are trying to accomplish. And this is a self-realisation that I'm not there yet. I am in fractals, I very rarely look at the fractal gallery though I have many friends there. I know what I want to do, and if this is the time to do it. Emily

Have I ever seen a Poser image that moved and inspried me? NO.Have I ever seen a Poser image that I wanted to own? No!....untill today.Go back two pages to "Green eyes,free for Preteen Morph by bk321467SkyNet,and look at the last picture he posted.But please be very quiet. SWAMP

Attached Link: An angel sleeps....

That's a beautiful graphic. I don't know if it is "art" as the purists would like to define it, but it certainly was created by someone very skilled. Thank you for pointing it out.

ART:Noun The creation of beautiful or significant things

I would like to say it is...but someone will object and say it cannot be and give whole lists of reasons why. But if art is something that moves your heart and fills your eye with something that makes you pause, then I would think this is art. I'm really glad you mentioned it....I've been feeling wore out by these art threads. Thank you again.

And you are expecting everything to be high quality? With some of them, God forbid you say it isn't. :-)

Well i'd like to believe 8 years as a professional graphic artist and almost 20 doing fine art qualify me at least as having some artistic talent. As far as 3d goes i'm still learning of course, i was just stating that for a while Renderosity was a very exciting place to view artwork and what people are producing, lately it just seems to be the SOS, just a different day. Just an oppinion as i said before and i was prepared to take a beating..lol

I think that it makes sense that the gallery is full of mediocre art and a few gems shine out. I mean, isn't that the way that anything in life can be taken? Art is one of those things that is personally subjective. I do agree that many pieces of Poser art that I've seen are just compositions. However, Poser is mainly a composition, animation and rendering tool. If the user doesn't have access to painting or modeling software, or the inclination to do so, then that's what you're left with. I see Poser more along the lines of photography than traditional art. Anyone can take a snapshot, but if you're taking a snapshot of something you built then maybe that's different.

"(which is a horse beaten so dead I'm surprised it can still struggle to its feet)"....? oh okay I'll remove the cables and pulleys from him then. I didn't know he wasn't supposed to get up.

This is what happens when everyone has essentially the same tools. Ever taken an intro figure-drawing class? You pretty much get 20 of the same drawing, except from different angles. Give 100 people flour, yeast and water, most of them will end up with some variation of bread--some better than others, but still basically bread. That's one issue--limited toolbox. The other is limited imagination: what do you do with the tools you have? What do you do when you know how to make a pretty good loaf of bread? Keep making the same bread over and over? Out of that 100 people, you're only gonna get maybe one pretzel.

I guess I should apologize for that remark...it's just that we don't seem to get anywhere with these discussions. Or if we do, I guess I keep missing the progression. :(

I see alot of people agreeing that we 'expect less" of poser. Or that Poser is just a hobbyist mentality tool etc. That wasn't my orignal point at all really, my point was, at one point this community produced amazing things, i just think now it's gotten into a "commecialized" rut. Lets see how quickly we can render images of products we like, lets see how quickly we can get our products to market. It takes me weeks to do one peace of artwork when i see some people posting 3 images a day. That might speak to how slowly i draw or how cookie cutter the galleries and marketplace has become, who knows.

We never get anywhere with them because (1) the people who have been here for a while are now almost completely enured to the cookie-cutter galleries and (2) the newbies see it and actually think someone will listen to them when they comment on it. SSDD

dialyn, it's a subject that will always be discussed with no resolution. ( hense the wires and pulleys to keep standing the horse up ) there are way to many points of view for any full agreement to be reached. ( lord knows I don't bother with getting involved in the discussion about it any more, since it's a never ending one. ) just as the "is cg art or not" is never really resolved. ( sub subject to what is art ~wink~ ) my comment was meant as a somewhat humourous explanation of how the horse gets back on it's hooves.

yunno rudipooimf is right. I browsed the galleries yesterday evening, and found that I was passing over a hell of a lot of pics. Usually the ones with a face in the thumb that says to me, "another portrait". I am guilty of doing this myself. I haven't posted in a while now because I'm bored with that kind of image. I have seen and done a million head shots of Vic and for me its tired. on the other hand this is still new to others and I'll give them that. Anyway yesterday I found myself clicking on the thumbnails that showed something different, a more involved scene or something that stands out, I also noticed that some of them didn't have very many comments. Maybe its an evolution the "artist" has to go through to move to something more.

A few points. First the quality and abundance of freebies and items in the marketplace has improved dramatically in the last year. Alot of these things, poses, lights, preset cameras and textures allow users to easily put together a decent looking render by using just presets without actually considering anything except what pieces to use: Texture from Al, Pose by Bob, Lights by Cathy.... Creating this kind of finished looking art is an amazment to someone not use to being able to draw even the simplest figure. So they get proudly posted. The problem is not that we all use the same tools, but that many of the posters are using the same pallet. Give 10 people clay and you'll get 10 different things. However include a few molds, some standard paints and your going to start seeing alot of repetion. Blame the merchants, blame a society that revels in instant gratification, whatever. The amazing thing is not that we see so many cookie cutter images, but every once in a awhile someone manages to make something special using those same cookie cutters. Face it. Talent is a rare thing, just because you increase the membership by 10 fold does not mean your going get even one more talented person. I look at just about every thumbnail in the gallery. I'm looking for one of two things: A really neat image that appeales to me or something that I believe I could make some contribution to, through my critisim. So no I don't things are getting any worse, maybe it's cause I don't expect that much to beging with. But I love being surprised. Just my 2 cents Jon

I'm a bit curious just why it bothers anyone? If the galleries suck, look somewhere else. Or does the general discussion of how bad the galleries have gotten somehow serve to raise one's status by being so astute as to have noticed it? One thing is fairly certain, if one thinks this message is going to change thousands, you may want to reconsider. I doubt seriously people will be slapping thier forehead and say, "Well, shit! I had better change my whole way of thinking." It reminds me of my sister when she was a teenager pointing at different girls (strangers) at school and mall and say stuff like, "Eeeuuuuwww! What an ugly dress she has on!" As an older brother, I wondered at the motivation for such a remark. I think it was to somehow elevate her self-esteem. I always asked her, "Why do you care what she wears?" I don't think she ever had an answer. The originator of the thread has mentioned (I think---because his sentence has a typo I'm not sure of) something about getting inspiration from looking at the galleries. Time for me to wind up my message and divert the "flaming" to me...but if one is really an artist, why does one need to look over other artists work in order to get inspired? Or am I just misunderstanding the use of the word, "inspiration"?

A palette is a tool.

Of course it won't change anything--but people talk about politics, too, right? And the weather.

I am not an artist so this probably isn't relative, but I don't look for inspiration as much as I am looking at techniques other people use. Artists have studied and copied other artists throughout time, and then eventually break into their own style. So do musicians. So do authors. It is the rare bird that is born with all the talent and knowledge they need to create something original the first time out.

I think the "inspiration" question cuts a bunch of different ways. I have a songwriter friend in Nashville who won't listen to the radio, ever, at all, because if he does it infects his brain and his subconscious ends up stealing stuff from other people's work. I have writer friends who read 4 or 5 hours a day--more than they write--because, they say, how else are you supposed to learn what's possible? Can I just say, too, that what really strikes me in the galleries here is the great innocence--the almost total lack of irony; Elvis on velvet for the 21st century--pure, unselfconscious kitsch, a true reflection of what's going on in the glands of the broader culture. Very cool, the things that happen when you really democratize art.

I mean, you could write a dissertation.

The whole concept of "Art" became so sliced up, divided, devalued and divisive that it may as well not exist now. It's more slippery than a bucket of oiled eels and harder to pin down than the true name of (insert deity of your choice here). The only honest statements anyone can make regarding a painting, sculpture, musical work etc is "I like it" or "I don't like it".

Well, the irony is that I will spend hours brooding over a graphic and it still comes out looking like amateur time anyway. Time spent can't compensate for a lack of talent. I don't read fiction for the same reason your friend doesn't listen to the radio....because the nature of the brain is to unconsciously plagarize when it finds something it likes. But I can't do that with the graphics. I'm not doing nudes or portraits so my ability to copy has been greatly limited in the Poser world, and yet I lack the ability to do something really original. There you go. I'm a Marketplace addict because of a lack of talent. Not art. But Elvis on velvet. Sigh.

I agree with dialyn in looking at some stuff if only to say, "How tha heck did s/he do that?" Or, "I didn't know Poser could do that!" Purely in a techinical way. As I've stated before, I don't look much because the technical superiority depresses me. But, as others have said, there is always a chance of "infection". But I still don't hear an answer to my question. Why does the quality of the galleries bother you (you = those who agreed with the originator of the thread)? It doesn't reflect upon YOUR talent. In fact, assuming the assessment is correct, then it helps make yours look wonderful by comparison. If boredom is your complaint...then another question: Why not just go somewhere else and seek "true art"?

Art is just art... stupid comment but it's true. Some people have lots of natural talent, I am not one of them.. however, things like Poser, Bryce, etc. are great TOOLS to help the non artists like me bring out the ARTIST within them. I for one am glad for tools like this. I've only used Poser for a couple of weeks, and am still playing around with it, but can see the tremendous amount of help it will inspire in my understanding of anatomy, lighting, etc. Klutzo "wished he could draw" artist wannabe. www.klutzoplex.com

Is it this time of the week again??? YAWN.

Maybe I have missed the true point of the galleries. I see them as a place to post an image that you are happy with and have spent some time on(or you got lucky and it went fast) and you want to share it with friends. If it was only for masterpieces, it would be a pretty small gallery.
One of the things my online graphic friends and I talk about is the glazed-over look our real life friends and family members get when we show them our graphics and try to talk about our Poser/Bryce/etc. Renderosity's Galleries are an outlet for us. I have only posted one image in the Poser Gallery(and it was a silly one), but I have posted many in the forums. I do not ever expect ohhhhs and ahhhs, but I want to feel free to share in an atmosphere of understanding.
Diane

Why does the quality of the galleries bother you I can only speak for myself on this, okay? I work as a professional designer -- scenic design and previsualization animations for the stage. I use Bryce and Poser almost exclusively, to rather surprising results for low-end, off-the-shelf software. But when I talk about my work with other 3d artists, it's almost embarrassing when they start in on Poser -- or, as some of them refer to it, "the naked chick software". In the eyes of the larger 3d community, Poser is a means to create easy softporn and, as a result, is dismissed because of the limitations imposed on it by the larger Poser community. Our galleries are a stunning example, folks: pages of gorgeous women, most of them in varying stages of undress. And that's fine. But that's all we ever do with it, it seems. The relatively few exceptions are almost shocking and wind up getting pointed out for their uniqueness as much as their technical ability. Big deal. So what?, you probably say. So what is that Poser is a software highly dependent on its users for things to work with. There are a few companies like DAZ out there making stuff, but the overwhelming majority of it comes from individual users, mostly hobbyists. And the overwhelming majority of stuff they create is yet more slinky lingerie, "impractical armour", and catsuits with transparency factors that turn them into little more than a thong and a band-aid across the nipples. Hey, that's what the market wants!", you answer, and you're right. But it also leaves the CL in a tougher sell position on the larger market, because all it gets seen for is yet another bevy of vacant-eyed, cookie-cutter supermodels. Poser will always be a hobbyist software, no matter how much CL invests in collision detection, hair creation, clothing gravity, and everything else they're putting into this thing. It could be a high-power tool, but it won't get there... and we'll have to shoulder some of the blame for that. Just my two cents. Others will, no doubt, feel differently.

atthisstage
I think there is some hope....read the list of "I wants" that showed up in this forum recently. It was common, everyday things..not more "Vicki Slavewear". I have seen more rooms and normal backgrounds being made over the last 6 months. Not quite as many temples. More historical models, less sci-fi.
Diane

SamTherapy: "The only honest statements anyone can make regarding a painting, sculpture, musical work etc is "I like it" or "I don't like it"." Nope. It's the beginning of the appreciation and the beginning of the real critique. Afterwards you learn about composition, colours, vision, stuff... Then you can make honest informed statements. atthisstage: "Poser will always be a hobbyist software, no matter how much CL invests in collision detection, hair creation, clothing gravity, and everything else they're putting into this thing." Ummm, it will be a hobbyist software if you want it to be a weekend hobby. You could make a hobby of Maya, Softimage or 3D Studio, too, although they are much more expensive. Poser (Bryce even more so, of course :-)) is perfectly capable of producing good pictures. You just need to spend a lot of time on them. (At some stage, of course. After you learn the techniques, you will make your pictures faster.) Tools are not that important. The finished picture is. The idea is. And snobbery is snobbery, whatever they call it.

Attached Link: No Nekkid Vickies

I don't post my stuff here, or haven't yet anyway, because (1) If I purchase something I don't feel the need to advertise the product in credits and (2) the majority of my renders have Poser stuff brought into Bryce and rendered there. And I don't do nekkid Vickies, nor temples. I also hesitate to post because my stuff is a little different from the norm and I'm sure I'd be crucified over the simple portraits I've just begun to do. If anyone's still reading and is curious the link to latest thumbnails is above.

"Why does the quality of the galleries bother you (you =those who agreed with the originator of the thread)?" It doesn't. I love it. Folk art for the new millenium, dude. "Poser will always be a hobbyist software, no matter how much CL invests in collision detection, hair creation, clothing gravity, and everything else they're putting into this thing. It could be a high-power tool, but it won't get there... and we'll have to shoulder some of the blame for that." Sure, the main audience for Poser is the hobbyist--why not? It offers relative ease of use, and if you spend a few bucks on textures, poses, etc., you can whip up a more-or-less acceptable render in no time at all. The fact that the prevailing aesthetic here is largely about ladies in skimpy outfits does not diminish the usefulness of the software for those with other things in mind--yourself as a prime example. Let the scoffers scoff--they're completely missing the point. Sooner or later, Poser will fall into the hands of capital "A," fine-art artists (as opposed to the commercial or graphic artists whose work is much admired here). That's when things will start to get interesting. "And snobbery is snobbery, whatever they call it." Well, duh.

atthisstage: If I understand your answer to my question, then you are ashamed of the Poser galleries because of what others think of you when you say you use Poser. (i.e., you get stereotyped) If you were a white person, would you be ashamed because the KKK exists? Your work should stand for itself and not be judged by a gallery of largely strangers. Spit: Your stuff is quite nice and interesting (only looked at the "new" link). As to a requirement to list what you used? I think it's largely voluntary. Regardless, your work (largely) seems nice.

"If you were a white person, would you be ashamed because the KKK exists?" If, in the nightmare universe, I was forced to be a white person--yes, I'd be ashamed.

If you were a white person, would you be ashamed because the KKK exists? Sometimes I am, bud. But that's beside the point. Yes, it's all in the tools and what you do with them (It's a major rush when people look at my set renders and freak when I tell them they were done in Bryce), but no matter how good the tool, there's always the word on the street to deal with. And the WOTS on Poser says it's not worth it, based on the images we produce. Not saying anybody needs to change anything. Just think we should be aware of the world outside Poserland.

Mosca: Well, I wouldn't be ashamed. I had nothing to do with the KKK's creation, don't support it, and don't believe in it. I'm a unique being that shouldn't be judged by what that group of whites does no more than Colen Powel should be judged by the perpetrators of some drive-by gang shooting in Harlem.

"based on the images we produce." Why did you say "we" if you hate being associated with the artwork in the gallery? You've already stated people are surprised at the work you do using Bryce and Poser. So, let it stand on its own. In different words, I kind of think it's a shame that people can't pursue what it is that makes them happy and satisfied without hearing a complaint that "their" work is somehow embarrassing someone else. I guess I think it's a shame because I suppose I'm one of those lowclass Poser "artists" that make you ashamed.

"Just think we should be aware of the world outside Poserland." What? No, stop--you're confusing me!!! "Well, I wouldn't be ashamed. I had nothing to do with the KKK's creation, don't support it, and don't believe in it. I'm a unique being that shouldn't be judged by what that group of whites does no more than Colen Powel should be judged by the perpetrators of some drive-by gang shooting in Harlem." Not altogether true. Whether you think so or not, you're a beneficiary of the eurocentric, white supremacist philosophy that this country was founded on (assuming you're white, of course). I mean, why do you think black people live in Harlem--'cause the Hamptons aren't funky enough?