"I guess I think it's a shame because I suppose I'm one of those lowclass Poser "artists" that make you ashamed." Pay no mind. Keep doing what makes you happy. What are you doing reading this snobby thread in the first place? Surely you know what a huge waste of time this is.

"Not altogether true. Whether you think so or not, you're a beneficiary of the eurocentric, white supremacist philosophy that this country was founded on (assuming you're white, of course)" I am a beneficiary of lots of things in my lifetime as well as things before my lifetime. I also have been hurt by things that happened before my lifetime and during my lifetime. BUT, that has nothing to do with me and who I am as a person and how I act. Do I wish some things had never happened? Yes. Do I wish some things HAD happened? Yes. But, I shouldn't run around hiding my white face because of something I had nothing to do with. And before it turns into a discussion of how this race or that race screwed someone one over, it was an analagy attempting to give a (somewhat) similar example of the feelings about the Poser gallery displayed above.

Yes, Mosca, you're right about that. I guess it's just the second or third time I've heard someone disparage the Poser galleries in recent weeks. (the Tisa personality springs to mind) And I thought of the same thing I explained above...just why does it bother the complainers?

"BUT, that has nothing to do with me and who I am as a person and how I act." Ok, I know we're way OT here, but surely you don't really believe this. Do you think you just appeared in the world, free of the effects of history and culture? If you did, you are truly one of a kind. Anyway, on with this week's art rant...

So, actually, Mosca, what you seem to be saying is the Poser gallery can be blamed on the effects of history and culture. That being the case, I suppose, then there is nothing that can be done about it because all the people who post there are victims/products of what happened hundreds of years ago. Maybe THAT's why these discussions never change anything in the galleries...LOL.

It strikes me that I'm rather ashambed as a human being that ignorant people still exist....as a child of the 60's, I rather though we would be farther along the line of civilization than we've gotten but in many ways it seems as if intolerance and bigotry is more alive and well than ever (and not just in people who are of European descent). What does any of that have to do with taking Poser seriously or not so seriously as art? Not much, in my mind. Am I ashambed to post in the galleries? No. I'm rather embarressed to have come out of the beginner gallery when I see someone really talented post and make my stuff look like a tacky postcard in comparison. But I'm not sure worrying over whether or not something is art is really useful. What I would like to see more of is encouragement of those people trying to break through the Poser stereotypes, and more education about what could be done beyond the Marketplace offerings. I treasure the people who provide those extra tutorials that explain some of the more mysterious aspects of creating a graphic. And the people who lead by example. The only people who really bug me are the ones who complain and don't offer any alternatives or solutions. But that's just me.

"So, actually, Mosca, what you seem to be saying is the Poser gallery can be blamed on the effects of history and culture." Bingo!

I don't think blame is the right word. The effects of history and culture influence us all and we are not diminished by recognizing that. We can either blame or credit our history for what we are, but it is an essential part of us. And if we are intelligent, we use that knowledge of our history in a postive and creative way. And I really need to proof. That sentence up there should have read "I rather thought we would be farther along the line of civilization than we've gotten but in many ways it seems as if intolerance and bigotry are more alive and well than ever (and not just in people who are of European descent)." Bleah.

dialyn--I just looked at a couple of images in your gallery; they're pretty interesting. The Grandmother's Tale struck me in particular. Liked the poem, too.

That's very kind of you. Thank you.

dialyn - thank you. That thread has been going on and off for quite a while. I often don't have much time for it, due to overwork and a slow connection. I do my best to be as objective as possible when selecting and commenting on images. Before I started it I had no idea we had a fractal gallery, much less that it had so many great images in it. And now to answer the thread: What is art? Visual art is the desire to communicate in visual terms something from the artist to the viewer. It may be specific, or it may be more general. The success of the piece can be judged on wether or not the piece has communicated what the artist desired. The media that the artist has used is entirely irrelevant. Many of the artists here are happy with the artistic statement of 'this is beautiful' or 'this is a beautiful (sexy?) person'. However, there are many who have more to say than that. Digital image tools have given more people the chance to express their vision, but as Sturgeon once said "90% of everything is cr*p" I can honestly say that I have seen more bad poser renders than any one person should legally be subjected to in one lifetime. Why do I continue? because I have also seen work that speaks to me in ways that mere words cannot express - images that will remain in my memory forever. For those images and artists, I am willing to put up with a great deal of student level work. Lyrra

i have a master's degree, as many of you know, in fine and applied art. there was a time, a couple years, or so, back, when our gallery really inspired me. now, i go there...get bored...really quickly...like page 1. i still like the rhino forum, here. the rest??? you tell me. some say it is "commercialism". me, i say it is too many newbies without a clue about design concepts....composition, lighting, and...FEELING the art. you can use steggyzz's textures, and antwotnio's lights, and maresh's hair....and, on into infinity....but, guess what...all the folks who created the products that are being used had a flavor, a feeling in mind. you can use those products out of the box, and, elude yourself that you are creating "art"...actually, it is more like paint by numbers. that is what is wrong with our galleries.

"Visual art is the desire to communicate in visual terms something from the artist to the viewer. It may be specific, or it may be more general. The success of the piece can be judged on wether or not the piece has communicated what the artist desired." "If you want to communicate, use the telephone." Richard Hugo "The media that the artist has used is entirely irrelevant." "The medium is the message." Marshall McLuhan

"i have a master's degree, as many of you know, in fine and applied art." I did not know that. Boy, am I impressed. I mean, really, REALLY impressed. I'm a little out of breath right now, even.

yeah, that and 35 cents will get me a phone call. and, i don't know how much i need to add to that 35 cents to get myself into the "hot 20", here. and, before you get too impressed...suffice it to say, i loved to party, and was just a mediocre student...story of my life :*)

Art is communication...a language. A manifestation of the soul. When I write I don't read- after all, when I speak I can't always listen. When I work on images I don't look at other people's work. When I don't work on images I go; I listen; I become; I see. I don't post to galleries because I'm not ready to speak. I will, one day. It has nothing to do with technique, little to do with originality, but much to do with message. If you speak to me on a subject I care about, I tend to listen. I care. Q

Let us stipulate that the portion of (what for lack of a better term, we can refer to as good art) in the galleries has decreased of late. Why is this? Either the number of good artists has decreased or the number of not so good artists has increased. I think the latter is more likely the main reason. More people are using the program every day. Poser has moved from its roots as more of an aid for traditional artists and is now seen as an artistic tool in its own right. Certainly the number of hobbyist users has increased. Lets face it; the serious artists who had any interest in Poser have probably already tried it and decided to use it or not. There is always a potential market among users of more high-end packages but I think the lions share of sales for the foreseeable future will be with hobbyists, web site designers, etc., people whose primary interest is not necessarily creating serious art. Now real artists may be trained in and gain their inspiration from traditional art but I dont think this is the case for many people. Consider the fact that art education is public schools has declined over the years. Mention museum to many people and they will think of tyrannosaurs before Titian. As someone alluded to, todays society emphasizes a MTV quick cut, sound bite, fast food, disposable, Brownie snapshot approach to life. People, especially young people are less likely to read newspapers, much less books. Music video, video games, and the Internet influence them. It should be no surprise that you end up with a number of Vicky in temple homages to Frazeta, Vicky as Britney, or anything with Vicky naked. Nor, should it be surprising that the quality of many of these images doesnt live up to the high standards of some. I think more and more Poser users see it as a fun, liberating pastime. They may not necessarily have the time or the patience, or even the inclination to spend hours or days perfecting an image. The art (and I do consider it art) they produce fulfills a desire and brings them a sense of pleasure and satisfaction. I certainly dont think anyone sets out to produce a bad picture. The galleries continue to serve what I think is their purpose, to give people an opportunity to share something they enjoy, warts and all. I think the simmering discontent from more serious artists with the galleries is merely a reaction to the reality of Posers changing place in the world. I imagine the Beverly Hills gentry felt a similar sense of dismay when the Clampets moved in next door. All is well; the foundations of art have not crumbled, just shifted, as they will do. You dont have to lower your standards to take a more ecumenical view of art and try to appreciate what the new school is trying to say, even if you dont like the result. You can offer helpful comments. Above all, you can show, by example, your own ideas. Everyone wants to improve, even if theyre not real artists. True, you may find less inspiration in the galleries, but as a couple of people have said, perhaps thats the best place to be looking for it anyway.

Attached Link: http://homepage.mac.com/kflach/media/BabyS.mov

Geez, has it been two weeks already?

No, just seems like it. But I can't stop myself from adding the following: The percentage of images that bore you will increase as the number of people posting images increases. And given that the number of members continues to increase... Limitations on a medium are not set by others; they are set by the laws of physics and by you. It should not be surprising that an application called "Poser" is typically used to create portraits. I personally would not compare Poser work to painting, though it could be used as a basis for that type of work. I tend to view it more as a type of photography in which the photographer has more control over the model.

Egads... Same old rant, about the same old gripes, that has been happening here every week, for who knows how long now. Maybe they should open a "Renderosity Sucks" forum here. It would probably help to stop about half of the posts that get put here in the 'Poser Forum'.

lmckenzie: "As someone alluded to, todays society emphasizes a MTV quick cut, sound bite, fast food, disposable, Brownie snapshot approach to life. People, especially young people are less likely to read newspapers, much less books. Music video, video games, and the Internet influence them. It should be no surprise that you end up with a number of Vicky in temple homages to Frazeta, Vicky as Britney, or anything with Vicky naked." The problem is not in MTV or music videos, but in thoughtless immitation. Video is as much cinematography as a full film. Have you known that the video for Michael Jackson's "Thriller" has as many editing cuts as an average feature film? (Sorry, unceratin about exact terminology.) But not many people are prepared/able to put that much effort into their creations. So they create something that's superficially like something they've seen. And then MTV gets blamed for Sturgeon's 90%. Of course, we could talk about instant gratification, but as somebody who couldn't draw to save my life, I'm probably not the right person to do that.

Is the purpose of art reveal or deepen a mystery? Do the ends justify the the means? All I know is that the purpose of art is not to teach, preach or coerce. It is to learn, create and inspire. If it tells a story, makes you feel something or makes you wish you were there its art. Poser out of the box is probably not art exept that of it's creators, but you have the ability to make it your own art when you add your personaliy to the textures, the shapes the lights and the poses. If you can create your own models so much the better. It is a tool nothing more - nothing less. - TJ

You think the current galleries have no inspiration? What about the "item of the day" pictures? That's when every member and his brother makes pictures with the latest thing: Body Jewels, DAZ Gorilla, and now, the DAZ House Mouse. Why do something original when you can plunk a pre-made model with a pre-made texture in a pre-made pose into your scene and have "art"? {All I know is that the purpose of art is not to teach, preach or coerce. } The purpose of art is to get your message across, even if it's just to entertain. To say art is made just to say "I did that" misses the point. Then again, we're talking about a population that clicks on nude thumbnails and were the most-viewed images are nudes (and not even great nudes). This is a community where a thought-provoking piece gets no views, but another nude vicky gets thousands of views.

Too many critics, not enough artists. I'm always amazed that people with the same tools that I have can create such beautiful art. I think texture, lighting and a good imagination are the main ingredients. Who am I to criticize someone else's art or the thought and feeling they put into it?

Palette is a tool?... Depend on what definition you're using, but I'm not gonna get into that argument. The point is, which I believe we both agree, is that the availibilty of pre-made settings for poser inevidibly leads to repetition. Why do the endless parade of "Nude Vicky in a Temple" images none the less keep getting lions shared of hits? Duh, the same reason that Playboy, Penthouse, Hustler, etc etc etc ad nauseum keep selling despite repitious photography, poses and subjects. Sex sells. Can we attribute that to the Judeo/Christian Puritan morality that this country was founded on? I dunno, probably. Personally this whole thread has lead me to re-examine my own gallery of images. For the most part I guess I do fall into that category that has been so derided in this and many other threads. Altho' I'd like to think that I have a tad bit more artistic merit than the river of banality that dominates the galleries. whatever, tired now. IMHO Jon

Well, rolling along with this thread... I personally don't give a flip about the (so-called) current sorry condition of the (Poser) gallery. I don't care if every piece posted is a nude/semi-nude Vicky. It won't change what I decide to do. I'll still try some figure studies and I'll still try to do "meaningful" art that might make someone sit back and think (or feel something). I may even try something comedic. But, whatever I do will come to me in a dream, while I'm driving back and forth to work, mowing the yard, or some similar time when my brain can wander a bit--not because of the Poser gallery or remarks about it. One thing I will not do is "whore" myself to get views. Nor do I work on a timetable ("Oh my gosh, it's been a week since I made some Poser render!") In summary, the perceived state of the Poser gallery won't have any effect on what I try to do with my tools. I suggest others take a similar approach, stop making sweeping generalized insults, and let people march to their own drummer.

Well said, Chuck. Vicky in a Temple is the new folk art. So what. I'm sick of snobs.

John Render, If you mean to drive the idea into someones head whether they agree with your perspective on the world or not - no, I disagree. Again to reveal rather than teach, to deepen the mystery rather than to blatently "get your point across", to make someone else feel something . . . I hope your ideas on this community will mature with time. Surely there are those who take "Nekkked Vicky in a Temple with a Sword" seriously, but you're gonna have to live with that type of thinking no matter where you go. It doesn't mean you have to walk in lock step with them. "No matter where you go, there you are" - from the movie, Buckeroo Bonzai. cheers, - TJ

"Can we attribute that to the Judeo/Christian Puritan morality that this country was founded on? I dunno, probably." How to explain the enormous popularity of porn in places like Japan, then? "The purpose of art is to get your message across" I couldn't disagree more. Archibald MacLeish said, "poems don't mean, they be." Transparency of meaning is no prerequisite for the making of art. Most of the artists I know couldn't tell you what their work means if you held a gun to their heads. "Vicky in a Temple is the new folk art. So what. I'm sick of snobs." I was wondering how long that one would sit there before someone got offended. Folk art is not a pejorative term--nothing wrong with folk art, or the makers of folk art. Is it snobbery to suggest that there's a distinction between folk, popular and (for lack of a better term) high art? I have some training in both--two years of graduate work in one of the country's leading folklore programs, a father who was a Yale-trained ab-ex painter, graduate degree in creative writing, and a lifetime of interaction with artists and writers. It's not a spectrum/continuum--I'm not saying folk art is "bad" and high art is "good." The two are almost completely different things, made, as we see here, for almost completely different reasons. I'm not making a value judgment, just an observation.

snob: someone who perceives that they have better taste than me....but they are wrong. ;)

Dang--deleted it 'cause of a misspelling--was gonna repost but now it doesn't make sense. That's life in the forums, I guess.

Hey Mosca, I like that term "Transparency of meaning". Ive always thought of "Folk Art" as appreciative rather than deprecative. - TJ

Me, too--I've got two of my grandmother's beautiful, circa 1920 Pennsylvania Dutch quilts in my bedroom. They'd fetch a pretty good price on Ebay, but I'll never sell 'em.

Heavens, I didn't mean folk art in a pejorative sense at all! quite the contrary. And when I spoke of folk art, I didn't mean it in any formalized sense. I could have called it popular art but that wouldn't be right either since there is a quite recognizable 'style' to the gallery offerings I see. A sort of feeding off each other as well. I can't articulate very well. Sigh. What we see in the galleries can be accepted or ignored, but it's not going away.

Sorry! Misunderstood.

Mosca, A friend, Jody, used to make stuffed animals. on the face of it some might think that that's chilish, but I know better having watched her figuring out how to make the character look - my favorite was her beaverbear - she made a few really neat quilts too. Gordon, Who reminds me of AgentSmith in the Bryce forum, made things out of wood, silver and leather. Kiyoshi makes pictures in leather, and has been exhibited in the Smithsonian for his works relating to veterans. In his job he makes saddles. Lotsa horse owners here in the valley especially in Clovis and the country side. These are no less true artists than My Uncle Frank who sold over 200 paintings during his 50 years as a painter. -TJ

Erlik, I wasn't trying to devalue video as an artistic medium. As you say, the "problem" if one exists, is in imitation as opposed to innovation. I don't know if I'd go by the number of cuta as any indication of quality. Jacko ain't Huston, or even Bruckheimer. The fact is, like video has made film making more accessible to those without the money or the connections to produce a 35mm piece. Poser has done the same thing in its way. Democratization is good. Everyone gets a shot. A few truly talented people will emerge who, otherwise would have been lost to us. At the same time, you'll also get a lot of shot on video mediocrity which appeals mainly to the creator than anyone else. But, that's not bad. The creator is happy and there will always be an audience, even if only a small one, which aappreciated the result. Maybe they should just take the "Artists" out of the tagline "The Online Graphic Artists Community." Perhaps that would assuage those who see less and less that they consider art and be a more accurate reflection of the evolving state of things.

"I suggest others take a similar approach, stop making sweeping generalized insults, and let people march to their own drummer. " Chuck...i think that some of us who really do march to our own drummers are the ones that hate the lack of imagination in the gallery the most. some of us really spend a long time getting a render just the way it is in our mind's eye...hey, there are some of us who EVEN make our own characters, clothing and props. then, marching to our drummer we may spend endless hours on posing and lighting...only to have it on the first page of the gallery for about 5 minutes...replaced with out of box replicas. that's not right. it is all well and good to have fun with poser. however, i do really really really wish that the ptb, here would limit the amount of posts by any given individual to 2 or 3 per week, instead of 3 per day. at least that would limit it to the best of the boring.

I don't think reducing the number of images will solve the problem that some people perceive. The "art" will still be outnumbered by the "dreck" in the same proportion. There will just be a smaller pile to sift through. You can't simply force people to do work that pleases or interests you. There is no reason to believe that limited to one picture per day instead of three, someone is going to spend three times longer on that one, or that the result would be any more pleasing to some if they did. Everyone who goes through the galleries will see a ew things they really like, a few they loathe and many that they find indiferent at best. The difference is that most of them, for lack of artistic discernment, laziness or common sense aren't moved to constantly lament that fact. They don't feel some sense of deep dismay that the majority can live with what they see as medioricty. It's almost like the pious who can't pass by a den of sinners without stopping to admonish them. Now, I really believe that these folks are sincere and that it really does cause them some psychic pain to see so many naked Vickys. I believe it, but not being an artist, I suppose I will never understand it. I know that they would probably like Renderosity to be an exception to the world where you'll find far more people watching pro wrestling than Masterpiece Theater, but it isn't. Perhaps Renderosit has just become too big, too open. It's free, it's no credit card or art lessons required and anyone can post anything (within reason) that they want to. Two alternatives, start a petition drive to get the ptb to change this site or get some free/cheap server space and start another one.

Some of us really are doing the best we can. We're not all artists...and there is no signpost saying "Only Artists Allowed." I don't put up a graphic to intentionally offend someone's artistic sensibilities....it is the best graphic (really) that I can do that day with the knowledge I have and the equipment I have. Why do I bother sharing dredge? Under the theory, I guess, that people who don't like it will go on to something else and this give me a place to share my graphics with some few friends who are more tolerant of my efforts than the experts would be. But there are some excellent graphics out there and I hate the sweeping pronouncements that there is nothing good on the lists. Check out the thread by Stormrage and the one by Lyrra and then tell me that none of their selections aren't serveral cuts above the average. At least they are looking for artists to celebrate. That's a step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned. Maybe seeing originality recognized would encourage others to try a little harder. But keep in mind, some of us are doing the best we can. We just don't have the talent the rest of you have.

NO ONE Should have to apologize for putting their art on this site. Dialyn your art is fine :) I can't wait to see your work in even 2 months.. as you learn you get better and better. Everyone does.. None of those in this thread started out doing FANTASTIC images. None of them. everyone starts somewhere.

okay....when i first posted an image to our poser gallery, i had had poser for 6 weeks. granted, it was not FANTASTIC, but, it was original. the people had expressions, and, overall, it told a tale. i even did work to change michael's overly red complexion, and made morphs with anim8or for the girl's eyes. my first 3 images took...TIME and THOUGHT...and they expressed feelings that i had. the only out of the box thing i had was michael1, and he needed work. now, i see newbies to poser, and to this site, cheerily uploading 3 images a day...all of which really don't contain much content, except for what they bought in the market. maybe, just maybe, if we limited the amount of posts to a weekly thing, folks would take more care in picking which render they wanted to "share". perhaps, they would even begin to ponder why that one was their favorite, that week. i know i am not the only artist who has ceased posting to the poser gallery, here. my last post to that gallery took me 3 weeks to do....and that was AFTER doing the props, and, most textures...with the exception of a crystal ball, myself. well, when we changed servers or whatever this site did to ready itself for "content paradise"...lo and behold....the image was terribly corrupted on one side. oh, well...doesn't matter. one can work for 3 weeks on a poser image, and, have it buried in 10 minutes with our current gallery setup. if you are just playing, and, don't much care how fast your pic goes to page 10...well, it is just that...just playing. if you are serious about what you make, and upload...well, like me, you are probably not posting.

"one can work for 3 weeks on a poser image, and, have it buried in 10 minutes..." I'm really trying to understand here. If you image ends up on page 4 after 30 minutes, would that be better? If that's the case, then perhaps cutting posts by 2/3 would be the solution. Other than setting up some criteria like don't post unless you spend at least a week on it or made your own props and textures... If you could enforce that, it would certainly cut down on the number of images. The only other thing to do is get subjective and then you end up with another list compiled by one or more judges and that certainly is a can of worms. If reducing the posts will make most of the people happy then you have my vote. It's been suggested time and again and hasn't happened. Either it hasn't been presented properly or the folks who run things here don't feel it's a good thing for whatever reasons. If someone who feels passionately about this wants to start a petition, email campaign or whatever, just show me where to sign. In the end though, I think that this horse, dead or alive will only end up being whipped again in a few days or weeks.

Poppi, your comment... "Chuck...i think that some of us who really do march to our own drummers are the ones that hate the lack of imagination in the gallery the most. some of us really spend a long time getting a render just the way it is in our mind's eye...hey, there are some of us who EVEN make our own characters, clothing and props. then, marching to our drummer we may spend endless hours on posing and lighting...only to have it on the first page of the gallery for about 5 minutes...replaced with out of box replicas" So, if I understand your comment correctly, your complaint (and possibly the same complaint of many others) is that the quantity of inferior Poser renders pushes the (your) superior renders out of the way before it really has time to be appreciated. Did someone mention "snob" above? Well, perhaps we should fix this problem. I have a few suggestions. Let's just create a panel of experts. Say, 10 people. ALL Poser submissions go to them first. They mull over them and decide if it goes to the "Inferior Poser Gallery" or the "Superior Poser Gallery". Someone can just decide that for us. THEN, great work will be easily locatable. Or, perhaps something based on an algorithm: Let's say all the Poser "artists" (quotes used, 'cause I certainly don't want to open another dead horse while I'm still working on this one) get a rating. A numerical rating. Perhaps by a committee of people with criteria such as, "two years of graduate work in one of the country's leading folklore programs, a father who was a Yale-trained ab-ex painter, graduate degree in creative writing, and a lifetime of interaction with artists and writers". Then, each "artist's" rating is entered into a formula that dictates how long an image stays on the top pages. Of course, the higher your rating is, the longer the amount of time available in those top pages for the viewers to be exposed to your greatness. Those are just two suggestions. But I agree. Something MUST be done about these Temple Vickies (and related dreck)that get hundreds and hundreds of views when there is SO much more better and meaningful work out there. I'm reminded of the definition of "egotist" (by Ambrose Bierce): "A person more interested in himself than in me." You know, you make people like me want to take my dreck and leave. While I suppose I'm one of the people who produce vastly inferior work, one thing I can promise you is that it's a rare day indeed that my pidly Poser crap pushes anything out of the way in the gallery. I guess I was mistaken assuming the galleries (with the words soliciting comments and help) were a way to get feedback and constructive critism. Apparently, it's more of a showcase for "the chosen few" and piss-ants like me just get in the way. If I sound upset...I guess it's because I am. One gets that way when it's pointed out there are two classes of "citizens" here at R'City...and you know which class you have been directed to. (OK, fire away.)

Chuck, Work and dedication pay off - it is only perseverance that we succeed at anything. I looked at your gallery. The "Wagon Light" in the photo gallery looked pretty good to me. Perhaps you could do that in Poser as a study. If you can get the textures to work for you, it'll be a winner. - TJ

Chuck...if taking the time and the effort to do my ultimate best when making a gallery image, or, any image, for that matter, and, expecting others to show some degree of the same care for their works makes me a snob, so be-it. i stand my ground that there are way, way too many out of the box renders in the gallery. and, i see so many, month after month by the same members....with no improvements. why? 'cause they get alot of comments on how well they "showed" toys they used, and, never feel the need to improve. having fun with poser is a good thing. but, learning to take a critical eye to one's own work, is a good thing as well. at some point, if one is really interested in creating "art" with poser, at some point,i would think that one would notice that their vicki's still had crossed eyes, and no expression. pop...pop...pop!!!

I guess you never had this experience but I have. You do something, you see some improvement, you plateau, then it almost seems like you're going backwards, and then, with a jolt, you see an improvement. It's great that you can do your own models, and your own textures, and your own everything. That's admirable. I can't do that. I don't have the software and I don't have the money to buy the software. I have to take advanatge of what comes out of the box. It wouldn't hurt to have a little compassion for the people not as talented as you are. A lot of us are struggling and doing the best we can with what tools and abilities we have. I'll never be at the level of artist. Doesn't that mean I have to quit my hobby just because I can't reach your heights? Isn't there a place for someone who has a more modest goal of doing the best I personally can rather than trying to do the best you can do. I can't do what you do. I can only do what I do. And how do I hurt you by doing that?

Well, apparently, dialyn, you and others like you (myself included) push her stuff "out of view" too fast. I guess I can understand, a bit, people who are tired of looking through the gallery for inspiration and seeing the same old thing. Just never heard anyone, till now, upset at the abundance of material because it pushed their stuff down to underlying pages too fast. Maybe these people should pick up and move where the pros are (PoserPros). Then maybe they wouldn't have to deal with our interference. WIth over 100,000 members (mostly Poser, I would guess), you can't expect everyone to be artistic geniuses. Not even the majority. TJ: Thanks for the boost in morale. Feels a bit good at this point in the day. Funny you mention the wagon because I just did a carriage scene (Vue) and have posted a request for help in the Vue forum because it's my first real try at Vue. (Of course, it's been posted nearly 24 hours with no critiue or assistance yet...sigh...guess I turn people off)

My understanding is that the real artists aren't posting in the galleries any more because of us hobbyists, so I don't see how I'm pushing anyone out if they are already gone. It's apparently the mere existence of a beginner that's offensive. But how many people are born knowing how to do 3D artwork? I'm over 50...I have a longer learning curve then somebody who is 18. I never worked with 3D software before Poser...I've been at it since July and was hit with the complication of Poser 5. I'm sorry but it takes me awhile to adapt. And I accept I may never get any better than I am now...skill and talent are finite in some people. Oh well. Does that mean I don't have a right to at least try? Don't forget, Chuck, this is a holiday weekend for some but not all. Your Vue help may be coming when people are done recovering from Thanksgiving (those who celebrate it), or finished at work. Or your request for help got swallowed up in other threads. We know how that goes.