After months of dodging this bullet when it came up on my screen and telling me that the Upgrade was free (I would click "remind me later" because there was no other option), the damned thing downloaded into my machine in the background. I found it out when two nights ago I got a screen that wanted to INSTALL the thing!!!! I've hit the "remind me later" twice now and have scrambled to backup everything in my hard drive to a 2 terabyte external drive I bought last year. I've also made a backup of my bookmarks in Firefox.  I need to hear from anyone who has had this happen to them or who has gone through the upgrade experience. I need INFO!

Thank you in advance!

Hi

This happened to my wife yesterday.

She called me into the kitchen (where he desk is) and said she couldn't close the upgrade windows.

I went in figuring that I could force it to close.

Not such luck, the only thing on the computer that would work was the upgrade button.

Everything else was greyed out, even shutting the computer down wouldn't get rid of it, it just booted back up to the same screen.

I went ahead and upgraded, (it's a long process) it's all up and running fine.

No real problems for her, it did not delete any of her files or software.

All of her setting, bookmarks etc, seem to be OK.

I upgraded earlier, and then reverted to Windows 8, because it messed up my sound.

A lot of other people had the same kind of thing.

I'm running Windows 10 now, so I haven't had Windows 8 running but I'm afraid they will do the same thing to me, and force my to upgrade.

I guess I'll just stick with Windows 10, I like it a lot.

Mike

How long a process? What was involved? Could you explain?

Hi

I'd say it took about an hour on her laptop.

When I did it it only took about half that on my PC.

There isn't really anything involved, you just click Upgrade or whatever the button says and after that it's all automatic.

The computer will reboot a couple of times and eventually it will get back to the desktop in Windows 8.1.

There were times when the screen stayed black for a while but eventually it continued on.

It incorporates some of the stuff that I see in Windows 10 like a Start Button, and right clicking on the Start Button will give you links to a lot of common places like Control Panel, Device Manager etc.

I pretty much started the process and walked away.

For much of it you will see a counter that tells you what percentage of the process is done.

If you have backup imaging software and it's not too late, I'd make a backup image just in case but I think that people aren't having any problems as far as I've heard.

Mike

I had a similar experience Mike, all plain sailing and no data loss.  It's more of an upgrade than a full install as I recall.

I was happy when it was done :) I got the start button back :)

John

this IS just from 8 to 8.1 ???

while I'm not a lover of 7 my next step is mint ;-) [its on offer rofl]

Hi

Yes it's just from 8 to 8.1 that they are forcing.

I had real reasons for not doing the upgrade, when I did my sound was distorted and I couldn't fix it, so I went back to 8.

Windows 10 is only months away now and it really is an improvement over 8.

I've been using it for a week now and I really like it.

Mike

Yep, got forced into it. The process just finished. Everything seems okay so far. I must say tho that I am NOT happy that it was crammed down my throat.

I can't say that upgrade from 8 to 8.1 is a bad thing but, of course, noone want it to be forced upon him/her.
That's just a bad policy from Microsoft.

I had an awful experience with graphic card drivers when migrating from Windows 7 to Windows 8. I had a ATI with dual chips which wouldn't work but eventually I found some drivers that matched it. (I uses a Nvidia graphic card now)

Windows 8.1 works fine for me now (feels more stable and uses RAM better than Windows 7, I think)

@MikeMoss
About Windows 10 ...
Any difficulties with drivers?
I use software like Poser, Adobe (Photoshop, Illustrator, AF or Indesign), Lightwave, ZBrush and Maya. Do you have any experience with those in Windows 10?
Would you recommend an update to windows 10?
(Using a Asus ROG laptop with i7, GTX 780, 16GB RAM and 256 SSD+750 SATA)

Hi

I've had no problems with Windows 10, all my hardware and software run fine.

In addition to Poser, I have Photoshop Elements, (I don't think it will let me install my CS3 version twice, but I'm going to try one of these days) Premiere Elements 12, Text Aloud, a bunch of games like The Secret World, Age of Conan, The Elder Scrolls Online, Tomb Raider, Skyrim, Guild Wars 2, I even have the old Windows 7 games running.

I haven't had problems with anything I've tested.

I haven't installed Indesign or Illustrator because from past experience I think that Adobe will block them unless I remove them from Windows 8, but I'm sure that they will run fine.

I think anything that will run in 8 will run in 10.

I will definitely upgrade when it goes online next spring.

I haven't booted back into Windows 8 since I installed 10.

Mike

Thanks!
I'll installing it at home and see how it works. 

I'd guess it can't be any worse than windows 8.1 and windows 8.1 I've learned to like ;) 

After the upgrade I have a tiny display problem in Poser. Two versions of BB's Cornea shaders display a completely white in Preview mode. The image renders just fine. It's just in the display of the Preview mode. Don't know how to fix it. Oh, well. Also had to reinstall my Paintshop 8 program.

Hi

I did have to update my video drivers to the latest ones from Nvidia to get my 3D Stereo working in Windows 10, it didn't work with the default drivers.

Could your problem have to do with something like that?

You could try and see if there is an update for you video card.

Mike

In the area of UI, 8.1 is a huge improvement over 8.  GIves back the start menu, doesn't load with kiddyland of sites I never use covering the whole screen.  NO idea what it did to the touch screen, I don't use that, junk by any other name is trash. 

Long download, but gives the option to dump it all out, takes just as long to get rid of it.  Haven't had any problems, but the only thing I have it in is a laptop, which before 8.1 I hated.  Usable now.  Don't use it much, that won't change.

And very poor judgement by microsoft to ram it to us, I agree.  Another push to go entirely Linux.

Doric.

I can't help but laugh at people every time I read stuff like this, I mean, what did you expect?

Did you expect things to be done for your sake when you use commercial OS's?

There are basically two kinds of people:

• Those who use Smartphones and Commercial OS's
• Those who understand why you absolutely should avoid them.

The fact is that every one of you being manipulated, have no one else to blame but yourselves.  If you don't like being manipulated, then don't spend money on their products, allowing them to get even bigger, and to manipulative you even further.

Move to a GNU/Linux system (Debian is my personal favourite).  There's no excuse these days for not installing and using this OS.  If you're worried about Windows programs not rinning, just use WINE and you can run Windows programs inside a window in GNU/Linux just like it's on Windows.  Just be sure to avoid Ubuntu, AKA the biggest disgrace ever in the history of GNU/Linux distributions.  Ubuntu is "officially" shunned and should be avoided no matter what people tell you.  Debian, on the other hand, is highly recommended.

People who use commercial OS's either have no interest in the well being of their own data, rights, and privacy, or they simply do not understand the implications of using those OS's.  Best advice I can give here, is learn, because I'm guessing you'll learn the hard way if you don't.  At least Doric has the right idea, and as they say, better late than never. 

It's your hardware, and it's up to you what you do with it, not Apple or Microsoft.  Common sense should tell anyone that it's time to put a finger up to them and install a GNU/Linux OS instead, time to look after your own interests, not theirs.  That's the only way you'll take control of your computer and your life again.

It's either that, or they will continue to control your life for you.

Choose

I'm still on windows 7 and will stay there for now. It's being called the new XP due to its popularity. I like it and it works just fine with all my software. (I used XP for over 10 years and never had problems with it). I turned off all updates and I don't use IE, haven't in years and haven't upgraded it since whatever version came with win7. Are they just giving away 8.1 now or something? Not sure what is going on here. I have had no upgrades forced on me.

No intention of upgrading to 10 either. I don't use a touch screen (other than my android phone), and have no intention to any time soon unless I miraculously discover an extra $2200 in my bank account one day and am able to buy a Cintiq. 

I've considered moving to Linux but I don't have time or patience to learn a new OS right now, and regardless of what folks say, Linux requires more computer saviness than the average PC/Mac user has time or patience for. I might put it on an old off-line spare machine to learn it at my own pace in my free time. But free time is very few and far between at the moment. 

Quote -  Are they just giving away 8.1 now or something? Not sure what is going on here. I have had no upgrades forced on me.

The only reason I had even 8 was the crawling to microsoft by the computer manufacturers, you buy a new one and it's already installed unless you have a box custom built.  win 8 was such a kludge ms either had to do something or in my opinion, it could have been the end for them as far as OS goes.  but the first time win 8 goes on line, forget it, just download the fix, it's the only way to get past their software.  It will give the option to install or not, either way, figure on an hour before you can use the thing.  If you're running 8, it may be worth the time, or may not depending on your personal habits.

Doric.

Gotcha. My PC is custom built. I haven't bought a pre-built machine in years. And newegg is still selling Win7. I should probably snag another copy or two before it's no longer available. 

Don't buy copies of Windows 7 now.

If you liked 7 you  will like 10, it feels just like using 7 but with some improvements.

Lots of things that computer geeks like to get to like Disk Manager, and tech stuff like that are only 2 clicks away from the desktop now.

You never have to see a Metro screen, and it runs really fast.

I'm really happy with it, I hated 8 but this is like breath of fresh air. LOL

Mike

Quote - Gotcha. My PC is custom built. I haven't bought a pre-built machine in years. And newegg is still selling Win7. I should probably snag another copy or two before it's no longer available. 

 

This box, which has no other function than on line, is a walmart POS.  My others, the ones I actually use, custom, although the vendor I use has few OS options.  Laptop, oh well.  I probably could have one built, but not for what it would cost me. @MikeMoss, I don't upgrade the OS, what's installed when I get it is what's in it when it gives up the smoke.  I hated going from xp to w7, hated w7, period.  All I'll say for it is it's finally somewhat stable, a far cry from when I got it.  I don't see myself getting 10, my computers will probably outlast me.  Everytime I've upgraded, which I say with my tongue in cheek, some of my older software won't run.  Not worth it.

Doric.

I can understand why MS is forcing the 8.1 upgrade. Supporting 2 operating systems versus supporting one and moving a team to Windows 10 makes sense.

I agree with Mike, Windows 10 is a drastic improvement over 8 or 8.1. I have some older legacy programs that don't work right in 8 or 8.1, and they work fine in 10.

@David

"I can understand why MS is forcing the 8.1 upgrade. Supporting 2 operating systems versus supporting one and moving a team to Windows 10 makes sense."

Don't want to sound rude, you know that but seriously, Microsoft must truly adore that easy going attitude of yours, you speak like the model, perfectly gullible customer.  Since when has it been ok for a company to FORCE anything on users of it's products?

You bought it in the state in which it was when you bought it, and it should be up to you what you allow regards updates.  There is indeed a reason you were "forced" to upgrade and it has nothing to do with what you seem to think it does.  You really need to start doing some research and you'll discover real reason they want that crap on your system enough to force it upon you.  Avoid websites that thrive on advertising and start reading the ones that speak the facts (and prepare to be shocked).

I'm glad that heap of corporate malware isn't intalled on my machine!

@Shane
Best way to learn it is to purchase this and this:

You get a dedicated computer for messing around with, but that specific book is superb in getting even an absolute noob started with the OS.  It's actually easier to locate and install/remove software on Debian than it is on Windows now (seriously).  That book shows you how to use Raspbian (a version of Debian ready made for that computer) - ready to boot from the SD card you insert into it.

Dead easy!

Debian has a package manger, it's just like having a built-in app-store.  All you do is search for the type software you want, choose it from the list of software packages that show up, and click install.  That's it, you really cannot get easer than that, you don't even need to trawl the web to look for the software.

To remove the software you do the same thing, click a button to show the list of installed software packages, then select the one you want to remove, done!

Nothing hard about using GNU/Linux Debian or Raspbian, not nowadays, and this is easy the best way to learn to use it before you put it on your main system.  Anyone can use it, even a child can install and remove programs now, it's honestly that easy.

Anyway, something to consider.

Quote -
@David

"I can understand why MS is forcing the 8.1 upgrade. Supporting 2 operating systems versus supporting one and moving a team to Windows 10 makes sense."

Don't want to sound rude, you know that but seriously, Microsoft must truly adore that easy going attitude of yours, you speak like the model, perfectly gullible customer.  Since when has it been ok for a company to FORCE anything on users of it's products?

I should have explained it a little more.

The way they went about it was worng, I do agree with that. But at the same time there really isn't any reason to develope Windows 8 when 8.1 is the upgrade for it.

This has happened before, just in a different way. Updates for Windows 7 stopped at a certain point unless you installed the service packs. Where they went drastically wrong was not making 8.1 a service pack That way support for 8 could have been dropped and no one would be screaming about it.

No one screamed about Windows 7 SP1 and it was a drastic change to it. You could not see much difference in the UI, but there were huge differences in the background.

The same thing can be said about any version of Windows prior, support fo non service packed installs basically stopped past security patches.

Remember the hardware issues in Windows 98 and ME? Not much different, other than this time you don't have to replace older hardware.

It's not them offering updates I have a problem with, it's them "forcing" the update onto people when they have not chosen (or knowingly chosen) to install it, like they "own" the customer and have made it their business to make decisions on their behalf.  Every single person involved in passsing that one, ought to be hung for public amusement.

Then again, I watch the Apple Keynote evey year wondering if their "innovations" could possibly make me cringe more than the previous year.  Have to hand it to them, they've never failed yet  This year was especially bad, and actually, way in advance of what I expected even of them!

They're another buch that ought to be hung for public amusement.

Hi

Well I didn't update because I couldn't make my sound work correctly on it.

A lot of other people with Creative Soundcads were having the same issues.

At the time no one could find a fix for it.

But I just realized that it doesn't matter anymore.

My sound works fine in Windows 10, so it I upgrade my Windows 8 install I can still do my work in Windows 10, which is the only OS I'm using anyway.

So if they force me they force me.

As to running Linux, I do run Linux Mint occasionally but it isn't that easy to run everything in it.

It's been my experience that there is a real performance hit running software in a VM.

And companies like Adobe (I'm a graphics designer) have security that really messes with anything other then a normal Windows or Apple install, even then you have to buy a different version for each one.

Anyway I really like Windows 10, and as soon as it goes live I'll backup everything on my computer, format my C: drive that has Windows 8 on it and do a clean install.

Mike

To be honest, Mike, to me the lack of "Adobe" on GNU/Linux is actually a bonus.

Depends on how you look at it I suppose.  For me the balance has already been made, there is already enough high-end software products native to GNU/Linux that I don't actually need any Windows programs at all.

Some immediate example are these:

2D Artists - Can replace Photoshop with the new GIMP
3D Artists - Can replace 3D programs with the mighty Blender
Designers - Can replace Illustrator with the new Inkscape
Musicians - Can replace Ableton Live etc with Bitwig or Renoise

The only thing I feel is lacking, is something to replace After Effects.  The good news is that Blender and GIMP can be scripted to do anything After Effects can do, as well as an infinite amount of stuff After Effects never will be able to do.  At the moment, the best way to get true high-end video effects on a GNU/Linux system is to automate frame-by-frame imports/exports inside of Blender or GIMP.

It's only a matter of time until the concept is transfromed into a mind-blowing video production studio, but until then, I'm prepared to live with automated import-export frame-by-rame - it's no biggie, and is technically beneficial.

On top of all that, of course, you're using an OS where everyone is able to examine the code for any malware, and that's a good thing because it's the only way you'll ever have control over what your computer is sending out.  My Debian installation sends out exactly what I let it, and absolutely nothing else.

It's my system, my installation: one where I am boss and am in complete control of it, not Apple or Microsoft.

pumeco, apparently you have never heard of Eyeon.

They make the most comprehensive video production suite on the planet, and it runs in Linux. (It is not free, which is why many Linux people probably don't know about it)

Many major films were done using it, simply because of its ease of use and massive scalability on a render farm. It is considered by many to be the best video production software ever created, and for good reason.

Check out the promo videos for it on Eyeon's site.

Cheers David, and no, I'd never even heard of it!

Just took a quick look, and it does look awesome but I won't be buying a copy.  I don't mind paying for software, just as long as I don't have to sell my highly sought-after sperm to a spermbank to pay for it!

I'd rather automate Blender and GIMP, there's nothing you can't do with that combo.
Thanks for pointing it out though, like I said, never knew about that one

The most I would pay for something like that is around £200 (£250 at a push).

It isn't cheap, that's for sure.

But it does look like it would do anything you could throw at it.

Software like that is only the first cost, after that you need the render farm as well...

We don't have the budgets like Avatar did (tons of other movies as well).... If we did, we could drop a few million on toys like that and not even break a sweat.

Chalk that up to Unobtainium, only found on Pandoria...

Funny thing is, I think that's precisely the type of software they'd make a real killing with if they were to price it realistically.  If they were selling it for say £100-250 I'm guessing their profits would be considerably larger than selling it to a lot less people at the current price.

A few grand for a production company is a steal. I agree that it is rather on the high end for a typical home consumer, but there are other options for them that do not cost a dime.

Anyway, Microsoft seems to be sticking firm to the forced upgrade, just like I thought they would. Sure it is not the norm to force an upgrade on an operating system, but it would not be the first, per software or op system upgrade either.

One thing I would like to point out, is that Linux has had forced upgrades too. Mostly on the server side thou.

Certain versions of Ubuntu on a Sparc system were forced to upgrade, and so was anyone running Apache/php/perl on many others.

Stating that Linux does not force you to upgrade just simply, is not true in every case.

It will probably get worse as time goes on (forced update wise), on both Windows and Linux.

This is why I warn people to avoid Ubuntu, it's like Apple and Microsoft all over again.  Ubuntu are the biggest disgrace in the history of GNU/Linux distributions.

Install and use Debian - problem solved.

Debian are working closely with the FSF etc.  I hear they even expect to have a totally blob-free version of Debian soon.  Debian is all about giving the user absolute control with complete transparency and no hidden nasties.  Ubuntu is the opposite and you should not install or use Ubuntu.  Like I said, Ubuntu is "officially" shunned - and you can't get more official than that.

Use Debian, problem solved.  No one ever has, and no one ever will, force me to intall an update or anything else on my computer that I don't want to.  I have that control (and always will) because I use Debian.

Watch this

Whatever OS you use; Connect to the Internet, and your system is an open book.

PRIVACY only lives in a dream.

On the NET?

You just gave up your privacy.

Who did that?

You.

You clicked to come onlline.

You threw away your privacy.

By now?
My message above is at least on a couple of dozen of servers.
To STAY.

No, Tony - that's not true for all OS's. Only the mainstream OS's. 

If you're savvy enough, there are ways to completely hide from the rest of the 'net, be 100% anonymous and still interact with it to pretty much whatever degree you want. Underground networks, etc. 

The 'net has some very dark roads that most people know nothing about. 

But this thread is getting off topic from it's own off-topicness. 

Um, Debian has had forced upgrades on the server side of things. It was for a Heartbleed hole if I remember correctly (May have been another one, it has been a while since I ran into that). Server issues are basically the only way a linux system can get a virus, and that involves infecting the repository so that a trusted update can install the virus. It does not happen very often because the servers are usually locked down tighter than Fort Knox ever was. But it has happened.

As more people migrate to Linux security fixes that force updates will probably happen to Debian PC as well. It will have to be a massive hole, that somehow was missed for it to be any issue to worry about. Or a compromised repository that requires Pc versions to be patched. The user permissions in Linux are rather tight to prevent things from going horribly wrong in the first place, but it does not always work out as planned.

Linux is far safer than Windows due to how the permissions and root access work, but that does not mean that it can't have an issue. Can't does not mean that someone wont find one. I will say that the monolithic kernel idea is one of the best ones ever created, assuming you use proper user permissions to keep it safe. But Linux didn't invent that, Berkley did. In BSD Unix, in the 70's (yes, you can argue that Pl/s kernels from IBM could do it as well. But it depended on how it was setup on install.)

vilters,

Linux is never an open book, that is the beauty of it. The security which came from BSD Unix locks a system down far more than Windows ever dreamed of. It does not work anything like it does in Windows. Even if port 80 is in use in Linux, anything that is deemed off limits will prompt you for a password. You can't hack past that without the password. The only real way around it, is to infect a repositiry (the updates). What that does is add malicious code to an update that would have to jot down your password and go from there. Even if it has your password, there would have to be a rather substantial kernel change to hide it from the user. It is not impossible to do it, but it is not real probable that you will pull it off for long before a patch is made and the infected server is back to normal. There are just to many people watching that for it to go un-noticed for long.

I have far more experience with Linux/Unix on the server side than the home version side. To me there just isn't enough support on the home side yet to use it. I wish there was, because it would remove most of the headaches that you get in Windows. Hopefully someday there will be far more support for Linux/Unix.

**
@Vilters**
That's simply not true.

Also, people should not tolerale being manipulated by these monstrous companies, it's just way out of control.  People should not use any operating system for anything important that is not composed of free software (free as in the code being freely auditable by anyone).  You need to use an OS where the code can be read by anyone capable of reading code.  By others being able to read the code, there are effectively millions of coders around the world that are your guardian.

So ask yourself, do you trust code you can't read, code that is developed by commercial companies, or do you trust code that anyone can check-over and is developed for the good of the user?

No GNU/Linux distro that repects freedom and your privacy will ever knowingly incorporate malware, spyware, or anything that is bad for the user.  If it did, it would be found out almost immediately and it would be the beginning of the end for that distro.  To install malware in a GNU/Linux distribution would be as dumb as swapping a field of grass for a field of needles and hoping the cattle won't notice.  As you will have gathered from the video, Ubuntu did that, but ask yourself where Ubuntu now ranks on the "freedom and privacy scale" - I'm guessing it's rock bottom along with MacOS, iOS, and Windows etc.

**
@David**
No upgrade has ever been forced upon Debian users.  Server-side changes are not client-side changes (and the user is the client).  You're talking about a change that was done to protect users, not manipulate them, and even then, you still got to decide what you want to do regards the installation.  You were in control and could have made the decision to wait for an audited verdict by those you trust before allowing it onto your own system.

That's a world away from the monstrous 'shove it on their system whether they want it or not' mentality that the corporate monkeys at Microsoft practice.  Like I said, nothing has and nothing ever will be installed on my Debian system without my knowledge.

@Shane
It is a bit OT, but you're helping to protect and educate people by this stuff being here.  What better place for people to discover a friendly alternative than in a thread about how Microsoft are manipulating their customers (yet again).  The biggest problem is that people don't realise there are free altenatives to being manipulated by these companies.  Users need to remember that they owe Apple and Microsoft nothing, nothing at all.  They also need to realise that purchasing an OS should not have to mean giving up your privacy and freedom in order to use it.

Both Apple and Microsft need putting back in their place, making plastic boxes with circuit boards inside and nothing more.  I for one will not tolerate having my life manipulated and controlled by some company started by a bunch of Silicon Valley geeks.  They don't own me, they are not gods, they are not the law, but if people continue to support these tossers, then what they (not me) have right now is just the tip of the iceberg compared to what they have coming to them as "useds" in the future.

It's a shame people can't see the result of what will come of all this manipulation and data-mining.

What's the point of having a beautifully, solidly, perfectly secure OS if the hardware itself can be compromised? 

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not about to start manufacturing my own chips and drives.

If you're really worried about privacy, you need to get completely off the grid because your electrical wiring can be used to eavesdrop on you.

And I believe Vilters is correct. While you can reduce the likelihood that your communications will be intercepted, you cannot eliminate that chance, except by not communicating. Snowden knew this -- hence the insane cloak and dagger charade that he and Greenwald and Poitras had to go through before they revealed his identity (and after -- to protect the documents). The moment you have connected to the internet once, your machine is no longer useful. One use only.

But, while I abhor the surveillance state and feel that it is a curtail on freedom that will have serious repercussions well into the future, I also don't think I am very likely to become a direct target. Ever.

And MS isn't controlling my life any more than any other extremely large corporation. Short of moving to the Yukon and living out Jack London's novels, the influence of groups of powerful people over me isn't about to go away, regardless of which OS I use. ;)

You're right, there is hardware itself that will overcome any privacy steps you put on it (which is why you shouldn't use it), this is why such things as the "Open Hardware" groups now exist, they're already putting those monstrous a-holes back in their place.  The big "N" have even resorted to pretending that they can monitor you "no matter what" - even though they can't.

They can monitor you, but they can't monitor you "no matter what you do", they just want you to think that so that you don't bother to protect yourself from their spying.  Unfortunatley, that little game appears to be working for them to a certain extent.  Unfortunately, some people wouldn't spot manipulation and emotional blackmail if it smacked them in the face.  Ignoring them and "protecting yourself no matter what" is what you should be doing.

Personally though, I'm not interested in defeating the big guys from spying on me, well I am, but that's not my major concern.  I'm more concerned about protecting myself from the likes of Apple, Google, Microsoft, Facebook, and all the other mass data-mining tossers out there.  You do that by using an OS designed by the public for the public, it's your first step towards not handing everything over to those tossers on a plate!  Most people really need to get a grip of how monstrous this stuff really is (and how it's very likely going to be used against them in the future), because clearly, most people have no idea whatsoever.

Just remember, there are growing numbers of Open Hardware developers coming onto the scene now because of all this crap, even the big names are supporting it now, so that alone should tell you how important it is to avoid using privacy-invasive OS's like MacOS, iOS, Windows, and Ubuntu - and to avaoid stuff like Google and Facebook.  If you continue to use them, it's you that will pay the price in the future, not those who protected themselves.

It's simple:
They can't do anything with what they don't have, and that's how it needs to be, them in possesion of nothing because none of this stuff is any of their business.  What are all those people who use "health monitoring" apps going to do in the future if the data accidentally on purpose gets leaked and conveniently aquired by all the health insurance campanies?  What are all the Apple Touch ID users going to do if someone accidentally on purpopse figures out a way to distribute everyones fingerprint along with their exact ID?

Example here, what do Apple users store on their iPhoneys?

• Name
• Age
• Address
• Sex
• Health Statistics
• Personal Unique Fingerprint
• Card Details
• Both large scale Movement Tracking and even personal Small Movement Tracking (which in effect, is complete mannerism tracking).
• It knows what they look like
• it knows what they sound like
• It knows what they like
• It know what they don't like

I mean Bloody hell, surely that's already twice as much information than some hack would need to commit a crime but get the user (or rather "used") convicted for it.  It is totally unreal how much stuff these monstrous companies are gathering from the "useds" of these devices, and like I said earlier, they ought to be hung for it (and would be if I were in power, as would every politician that had any control over it while it was permitted to happen).  They should be treated the same way as war criminals.

The alternative, of course, is to use an Open Hardware phone/computer/OS that does not allow remote control by those who want to (and will) illegally spy on you, and where basically, people aren't dumb enough to actually give such data to companies as that listed above.  I don't own any form of SpyPhone (AKA SmartPhone).  The only time that will change is when open hardware phones are mainstream and have been tested by organizations I trust.

The term "SmartPhone" has to be the most contradictory name ever given to a device because using one is anything but "Smart".  But on a lighter note, I saw an awesome video on YouTube, some guy made a fully functioning smart phone out of a Raspberry PI, complete with antenna and touchscreen.  Now that is what you call smart!

Click Here for an early Custom-Built SmartPhone - the smarter way to go about it ;-)

Awesome or what?
All from a £25 Raspberry Pi - gotta love the Pi :woot:

PS, my apologies to Shane, forgot about the OT thing, and for what it's worth, I get really tired of speaking about this stuff anyway.
People have to figure it out for themselves, I'm just thankfull I'm aware of these things enough to avoid them.

Pumeco, I don't have a smart phone. I actually don't have a cellphone because I don't need one. When I did, I just bought burners. Mobile contracts in Canada are insanely expensive and binding. No thanks. Ditto to Facebook, Twitter, etc.

I do have Google accounts. About 15 of them. Real name, DOB, etc? Are you kidding? I started on the net in 1990, long before the web existed, and back then your .edu address was linked to your legal name, but nothing else was because no one thought that was important. Then again, the net was being run on public dollars, not advertizing. So I challenge Google to figure out which of my email addresses contains real information, if any. As for my browsing history, were I a political activist, I would worry and take greater steps to cover my tracks. However, I'm not.

Renderosity has some real info because I have made purchases here using a credit card. In other words, Rendo knows my legal name. Nothing else. 

And there's the real info leak: if you use credit cards to make purchases, your bank has far more legitimate ironclad and damning knowledge about you than any social network, and banks have been known to use that information to charge higher interest rates based on purchases (for ex: lots of alcohol = higher interest rates, I guess because there is a supposed correlation between alcohol consumption and defaulting on credit card payments).

As for social media, well, people DO give too much information away. In British Columbia, auto insurance is coordinated by a single company, and they will do ANYTHING, from sending investigators to your home to physically watch you to trolling your social media accounts in order to try to discredit an insurance claim. In that environment, it's silly to be incautious about what you make public.

But I'm curious about what damning information MS is supposed to have on me and how they are supposed to be using it. I mean, I suppose it's possible that every single copy of Windows contains keyloggers, etc, but if that were the case, the poor buggers are drowning in so much data it would take them centuries to make any sense of it.

Again, if you're doing anything that could be considered "subversive" -- like volunteering to help people get out the vote (heh! I jest, but it's not really a joke) -- then exercising some caution is wise, and the more subversive your activity is, the more cautious you should be. But me? I'm too apathetic to be interesting to anyone. The worst you could probably say is, OMG look at how much she spends on CGI content!!! [And ever since my card was disabled because its details were stolen in the Sony hack, I haven't bothered to get a new one, even though a new number was issued. I've been using disposable cards. So even that avenue of info leak no longer exists in my case.)

Edit: As for whether the NSA is capable of spying on any given person, I'd say, of course they are. If you are a priority target, they are largely inescapable. If Angela Merkel's phone can be tapped, anyone's can be. But if you're just an ordinary person, the chance that they would spend the sort of effort to spy on you that they would spend on the head of the fourth largest economy in the world is pretty freakin' remote. I'd worry more about being killed by a meteorite falling from the sky.

 Quote "I actually don't have a cellphone because I don't need one. When I did, I just bought burners. Mobile contracts in Canada are insanely expensive and binding. No thanks. Ditto to Facebook, Twitter, etc."

I do have a cell phone, a dumb one that is close to 6 years old and I think I might use about 4 minutes a month and a dozen or so texts.   Don't use FarceBook or Twatter and Renderosity and Amazon are about the only sites that know my real DOB as I buy from them.   All the rest have some strange information such as father's name - Dick Turpin or the like (non UK members might need to look it up)  Mother's maiden name is something simple like Maiden (and I mean like) and I also check that there have been no searches on my credit rating an a weekly basis.  Despite that my credit cards have been done three times four years but at least all the fraudulent transaction were noted in less that 48 hours and the last one in under three.  That said I do order on the Internet a few times each week thanks to a large family - birthdays, Christmas and a hungry, intelligent dog that gets bored easily.  Mind you my dog has an email account as well, which I use to send joke emails, but it should make interesting reading if they listen in on that one.

To be frank, the people we should worry about are our ISPs/mobile companies. Unless we're taking pretty heroic measures to encrypt everything at the source, they have access to all our communications.

No point using an open source phone unless you're also using open source towers. If you're connecting that sucker to Bell or Verizon or AT&T and you're not encrypting your communications, you're handing everything to them, and to their lowest, minimum wage employees.

I worked for AT&T for about 2 months. The job requirements were: able to breathe plus typing speed of 30wpm+. No interview, no background check, no prior employment check, nothing. And as a customer service tech, I had access to the information for any customer who called: Name, DOB, address, SS#, etc, and credit cards used to make payments plus, I could read their texts, if I wanted. To be sure, I couldn't call up info on anyone I wanted, just whomever was on the line at the time. But were I criminally minded, I'd have more than I needed to commit identity theft.

When it comes to identity theft, that's what users of cellphones -- smart and regular flip phones -- should worry about. Not what OS they're using.

Quote: "All the rest have some strange information such as father's name - Dick Turpin or the like (non UK members might need to look it up) " 

Exactly how I do it. Even Paypal has weird info on me. Part of that is because I didn't have a Paypal account until someone created an account with my email address (she had the same initials and last name as me, and mistakenly used my email addy several times. From this I know that she lives in Manhattan and where, that she likes sausage pizza from Papa Johns, runs a dance studio, what her phone number is, and that she's pretty hot looking).

Come to think of it, having a common last name and initials has led to many, many misplaced emails coming my way. I even got invited to a very large bachelor party in Palm Springs a few years ago. I probably should have gone. Judging from what those fellows are up to now, they're a veritable enclave of rising technostars.

 

 

 

Like I said, I'm not talking about going out of your way to defeat the big "N", I'm talking about the general stupidity of handing this stuff "on a plate" to any data-mining corporation that wants it.

I basically ensure the likes of Crapple, Microdick, Googlespook, Farcebook and Twatter are kept well and truly out of my business.  By using Debian as an OS I don't need to concern myself with backdoors to these tossers or the system letting in or sending out anything I don't authiorize (almost the entire internet is run on GNU/Linux systems for a reason - it's because it's the most secure system).  Bottom line is, no corporation or company pays me (or you) for this information, and even if they wanted to, I would not sell mine to them.  You can imagine then, that I'll be damned if I'll just sit back and let them take it for free - which is essentially what people are doing - just like a bunch of muppets (or rather, marionettes).

I use Windows myself, I like using Windows, I'm using it right now simply because I happen to be booted into it.  I wouldn't dream of using it for anything important though, anything where I want my communications to remain private.  And that's my point, using an OS shouldn't mean a trade-off regards the privacy of the person using it.  Thankfully, this isn't the case, and we don't have to put up with that crap, and guess how I go about that?

I use Debian, and I think everyone else should do the same if they value their privacy.

Ever hear the song I'm a Marionette?
The words in it are a perfect fit for how I see the general Apple and Microsoft OS using crowd, the words go something like this:

And I'm like a doll, like a puppet with no will at all
And somebody taught me how to talk, how to walk, how to fall

That part reminds me of Apple users believing everything the company (which incidentally is represented by a half-eaten fruit) tells them.

I'm a marionette, just I'm a marionette
Pull the string
I'm a marionette, everybodys glad
Just as long as I sing

That part makes me think of Apple only being satisfied when they have every entertainment consumer sending money exclusively to Apple to purchase it.

I'm a marionette, I'm a marionette
Just a silly old clown

Yup, very, very apt.

Can't complain, I've got no one but myself to blame
Somethings happening I can't control
Lost my hold, is it safe?

Bloody hell, it's like it was purpose written for the situation and those words perfectly represent the conclusion :-D
You can check it out for real by Clicking Here

Yup, I'll stick to my Debian :-D

Open Hardware Association (OSHWA) has nothing to do with the context you put it in. Open Hardware has more to do with using hardware that is outside of X86/X64 than anything else. Yes they have a board, take donations, etc. But if you go to the site there is basically no hardware listed. The most prominent piece of open source hardware is the Arduino Controller. The Controller is just that, a controller for robotics, 3D printing, etc. The movement for open source hardware has basically nothing to do with a desktop PC, other than an extension to it.

Now, don't confuse OSHWA with the OpenPower Foundation which wants to topple specific markets starting with servers, with the IBM Power 8 and up processors. That will be similar to what you said about open source hardware/code, accept it wont be on your desktop anytime soon. A base Power 8 system is 10 grand just for a single cou tower. A well populated one is 6 figures. If you think that will be more private, think again. It will be controlled by the same big names that control things now. They are not dumping that much money in it, to get nothing out of it.

As far as data mining goes, your Linux system is being data mined and if you say it isn't you are full of crap. You don't need a back door to data mine. Many sites require cookies or you cant even look at the page. Any php/perl/whatever server knows what you run os wise, basic computer specs like dsiplay resolution, browser used, your location to within a few feet, everything you asked that server, and where you came from to get there. Your isp knows everything about you, what your computer requested/recieved on that connection, and sells that information to whoever wants to buy it for the most part. All of that info can be linked back to your internet connection, your name, etc. Even if you never even went to a site that bought the info, they know what you normally do on the internet by your isp identifier. You may have an ip address that changes, but your isp identifiers and user id never changes on there end. Linux can't get around that either.

I wont even get into what the NSA does, we have all read about that.

You have been Data Mined whether you like it or not, and Debian can't change that and never could.

I don't think you understand how data mining actually works beyond the hype you read on a forum. No offense meant, but you don't.

Lets just say I know a lot more about this than you think I do :-D

For the third time, I am not talking about defeating the big "N" - that's a whole different level of spying and data-mining, and yes, they're another bunch that ought to be hung for public amusement.  I'm also well aware I've been data-mined, we all have.  Debian doesn't defeat what is being data-mined once it leaves your system unless it is rigged with the right software, but it does allow me to control what gets put onto my system and what leaves my system in the first place, whereas Microdick Windows and Crapple OS, do not.  The only reason Microdick can screw around and take liberties with their "useds" like that is because the "used" has no control over their own OS installation, even on their own hardware!

LMFAO

That's what we're talking about here, Windows users getting manipulated through "forced" upgrades.  Like I said, I get really tired of even talking about this stuff because people really should have the intelligence to realise that they should not use anything that is designed to (and does) allow spying and remote manipulation of their system.  At the end of the day, it's no skin of my nose what other people use, all I'm concerned with is that I, myself, am using the right OS.  But when I see threads like this, or this type of discussion, I usually take the opportunity to let others know there are alternatives to all this manipulation and privacy-invasive crap.

Whether people think they should do something about it is always going to be a direct indication of their intelligence because the two are invariably linked.  You either understand why you should not be using such OS's (and actually do something about it), or you don't.  I haven't even touched upon Google's very own OS for the Chromebooks, needless to say it is owned by one of the biggest data-miners of the lot, Google, so need I say more.  The only thing that can be done about this stuff is to let people know about the better, safer, free alternatives, and hope they see sense for their own good.  I'm not Microdick or Crapple, you see, so I'm not in a position to "force" you to do anything.

Think about that, because that last comment says it all really, doesn't it :-D

Anyway, I'm not ignoring anyone, and I'll continue to read the discussion but I'm not replying further on this topic, it's too time consuming (and falls on deaf ears 99% of the time anyway).  That said, Roxie has finally figured out how to use the new forum and has a little something she wants to say first ...

Yeah, listen, don't be a muppet!!!

MacOS and Windows are sooo boring and conformist anyway, so why would you use them?  I've got a Raspberry Pi, I use that as my main computer running a custom Debian OS.  I can do whenever I want, and DAZ still don't have a clue who keeps culling all their Vickies!!!

Later,
Roxie - Girl With Blade

PS: I forgot to say to David, you should dig a little harder regards "Open Hardware" systems in the sense that mean exactly that, Open as in the entire hardware is auditable and certified free from nasties.  Broadcom kindly even released to the Pi users, data for a component used on the Raspberry Pi, because until they did, it was the only part of the Pi that people weren't 100% sure about.  So there you go peeps, a turn-key way to help protect yourselves from all this crap, just grab a £25 Pi, stick the pre-installed Debain-based OS into the SD card slot and switch it on.  You have a dedicated, self contained computer and OS that was not designed to manipulate or spy on you.  You can use it for the net, your banking, watching 1080P (it's silent, no buzzing fan noise), whatever you want, keep it totally seperate from your main computer.

Perfect.

Why Debian vs any proven UNIX variant that gets the job done.  FWIW, you can change environmental and user configurations in Windows, and just like UNIX - it has its consequences.  That last sentence had me LMFAO "OS that was not designed to manipulate or spy on you".  Sheeple.  Operating systems are DESIGNED to host programmed services.  How you use that, is up to you and the limitations of the operating system you (or others) have selected.  You have the choice to be aware of the services being processed, however ALL systems are susceptible to misuse and abuse by externally introduced and hard-coded malware, intrusion, mis-representation by proxy, and theft.  
I think your point, is that your choice of systems is easier to lock down and prevent unauthorized access than a common windows based system.

There are Windows based systems that are minimally exposed.  Issue is often more that desktop applications like the browser and user introduced services that compromise O/S security that are the source of the threats most users face.  I have had to pull my Debian based systems off-line several times this year from hacks (smtp spam services), and I see that the linux patches keep coming, nearly as fast as Windows.

Don't know why pumeco is so paranoid, unless he/she's got something in the box that probably shouldn't be there.  Someone wants to mine my computer, have at it, you'll get tired of finding nothing of any use to you.  I don't have to worry about my non-existent cell phone being hacked, nor my non-existent social networking being hacked and mined.  The problem isn't the computer or operating system, it's what you feel you have to put where it shouldn't be in the first place.  My first rule, I don't give anyone my CC number via computer, that's what the telephone, connected to a wall outlet, is for.  The net is what this computer is for, and that's all it's used for.  Period.  I'm not lost or helpless without a cell phone, if I'm not sitting next to my phone, it means I don't want any calls and good luck getting me to answer if you call.  I don't do file sharing and good luck to anyone that wants me to download the software to allow it, I know enough not to download something that I'm not specifically looking for.

Seems the problem with systems is pumeco, not the systems.

Doric.