Forum been a bit blah lately so I thought I would pose a question(no pun intented). We all know how almost impossible it is to describe what we do to people who then say blankly, "So you work in computer graphics?". :) This is how I describe it: What I do(models) "Think of a movie studio soundstage that is empty. There are programs that are like that soundstange but are 3D like Starwars or Video games. You can load your actors, props, scenery, etc and arrange them to make movies or photos called renders. What I do is make real-life models peole use to help them create artwork or images for other projects like books, instructional mediia or anything where hireing real world people isn't practicle or possible." ---------------------------- How I describe texturing. "3d objects and people are like white boxes and mannequins. We make a UV map which tells a picture how to wrap around the model like x-mas wrap around a box. A texture map is like the wrapper around a soup can or soda bottle." ---------------------------- If I am tired or not into it I just say: "I make realistic virtual Barbie Dolls toys and clothes for adults who like to make pretty pictures with the computer without having to draw." What do you say? Anton

lol. ignore the typos. I how we get forum spell check someday. :)

When I get caught starring at someone, ears, ridge on nose, general shapes. I try to explain why. Morphs don't mean a thing to them. I tell them it's like taking a piece of chicken wire and shaping it to what you want it to look like on a computer. After a few more dazed stares I ask them if they have seen Shrek, it's that kind of stuff. I don't tell them I'm one of the adults that like to make pretty pictures with the computer without having to draw.

I just say - it helps me with the drawings...

I can honestly say it doesn't come up. Then again, I normally just tell people I'm a web designer (which is true, anyway). People know what a web designer is (even if they might have very little concept of what we actually do). ;-) bonni

I agree with ockham. I work with experienced traditional designers and artists, whom you would assume that they would have some grasp of 3D, and I get blank stares from them. They see a render and ask, did you draw this? I say well I posed the 3d model, they say, who did it? I say it's a industry standard 3d model. I'll say there's some models I made and some models I got from others (freestuff). They say oh, so it's a collaboration? Is there anything photographic about this? I say no. I have even lugged my computer to work and demonstrated Poser as a 3d program. They cannot at all understand 3d even if it's in front of them. They think only 2d, if that's what they see. They don't seem to know I can take an image, reposition the camera, move objects around, and rerender. They think the view I show them is already in the computer somehow. I like your way of explaining it, Anton. I think I am going to arm myself with a sketch pad with some real drawings I've done just to show the slack jawed gawkers, then I'll use that first explanation you have there to let them know that 3d for me is a way out of spending weeks on a drawing or painting.

I say "I am a texture artist in the 3d illustration industry" They say "Huh?" I say "Sorry...i am an accoutant" They say "An accountant?" I say "Oh...I meant a Fireman" They say "What are you talking about?" I say "What are YOU talking about?" Then they give me a dirty look and turn and leave grumbling to themselves. Then...my job is done :) Rawn

Brian Eno used to say he was an accountant if anybody asked what he did. Nobody asks for further details that way. If I feel like explaining at all, I describe Poser as virtual photography. The models never complain (almost never :D), you can have as long a lens as you like, and you don't need a stepladder to adjust the lights.

Attached Link: not quite toy story :-)

I learned a LONG time ago to never explain what I do, or how I do my illustrations. I just tell them I make cartoons like those Toy Story movies. Other artists ask me how a piece is done, I just refer them here to Renderosity. Never try to answer a layman's question directly, using industry terminology. It'll only make them feel like a rube and you'll come across as a smug.

Everyone who knows me just thinks I am completely barmy anyway. I think it was the day that I remarked that a passing lady had Size 8 breasts - you all know what I mean thought, don't you?

LOL Elgyfu. I know what you mean. I tell people I sell 3D models. They go "huh?" and I usually tell them it's something for the computer. They then usually give me a blank stare and says "Aaah" in that "OK I'll just pretend I know what she's blabbering about" - tone. I have directed a few people to Renderosity to show them what can be done. Usually when people ask it's becourse they've seen one of my desktop wallpapers. I usually display some of the pics I've made. And when I tell people "I made that" They give me a VERY skeptical look and the "aaah" again L So.. It's usually a waste of time to explain it to "muggles"

It's really hard. I tell my relatives and friend that I'm selling 3D objects. After that you only see questions in their face. Finally I show them some renders and they ask me 'Do people pay for these pictures?'. So I tell them I sell pictures. They never get what a 3D object is.

I point to Shrek. See how the boots look leather - I make things look like they're created from different materials. See how Shrek moves - I make models move like Shrek does. I still get blank looks, but it's more of a "How the heck?" rather than "What the heck?" Sometimes I just say, "I make pretty pictures" and leave it at that. It is kinda depressing, sometimes, not being able to hold real conversations about my hobbies.

I tried to explain to a colleague at work, I bought them here and showed them the art gallery - the conclusion - I do "wierd science" and make my own men!!!! (if only).

well uyes i cannot spend ONE week without hearing such problem.. often people ask me if i MAKE the 3d items/models in my picture... it seems that in the subconscious of people, the only merit and worth in digital/3d art is for people who model the polygons and shape them into something. I admit it is one of the hardest job, at first, and especially for "complex" items required for poser (means posable characters with bones, joints, etc, or conforming clothes) that is even harder than static 3d items. But as i say, many mdoellists would not really be able to produce anything aside raw wip renders of their incredible creations. And i usually say that if one believe you just need 3d models and hit render button to achieve the result they saw, then they are WRONG ! poser especially, requires you to struggle against a strange lighting system, also learn some morphing with magnets (for fixing up ), colors, , reflections ejoint param, etc... skills required to improve or simply make a decent render or picture is insane, and i do not even mention postwork. then when i step on people like that i say to them: hey, this nice female model you saw on a add, did you see her in private or withotu make up or something, or at tv ? she does not look as pretty. This is the work of the photograph (and most of the time the postworked too :); though, the photograph did NOT make the girl himself (means he did not gave birth to her and such...) nor did he "DESIGN" his camera and know how it works. these are only tools. My own luck is because i sometimes makes my own textures, and my secodn luck is that i often use cartoon mode, which hides most of the 3d thign at first and i improve it beyond recognition compared to "out of poser box" cartoon mode... (so in cartoon mode i even cannot claim on textures, i uses none or very few) but YEs, it is always hard to explain peopel that NO you did not make the polygon items, NO you did not made the photorealistic textures, no not the cloths or the room and NO, you did not even made yourself the lighting (using one's lightset)... often it is hard to explain then. Best way is to load the whole PZ3, make a raw render, and show both the render and your picture to the person... he SHOULD understand then that there is somethign missing :)

I get the same response as ernyoka1. Since I make Japanese models and also train in Japanese martial arts, I sometimes print some renders of what I've worked on and show the sensei and students. The first response is, since these are mainly wood pieces, "Oh, you do woodworking?" I then tell them that these are renders of 3D objects done on computer. "Ah, you made them in the computer?" When they are told that I sell these models for others to use, "You get paid for THAT?! And people actually buy this stuff?" Oh, well. Working for the Ministry of Muggle Affairs has its benefits, though. ;)

I just ask if they've seen the movie Simone- if not go see it.

I don't ;o) I just say : "Oh, it's an offbeat computer game. I can choose different characters and move them around with the mouse, and once in a while I click a button to take a picture of the action." At those rare occasions when you come across an "artiste" who feels threatened by this instant art-machine, just add "Just a hobby, really." That'll save you hours of listening to the "It's not art" sermon. Most people stop listening after the words "computer game", anyway ;o)

Hehe Thip.. I think I'll try that approach next time :D But yes, Kuroyume, the "Do people PAY for that" response is certain almost every time. When I then tell them that I SPEND money on it too, they are SURE I have lost my mind totally (if they were in ANY doubt before that) sigh

I simply tell them i make unreal people so people can believe they are real people

I'm a senior tech analyst in charge of 1300 network printers..all I have to explain is why I'm not actually doing that at the moment..;)

or how about.... I make things that dont exist for a world which doesnt exist, for people who I dont know if they exist

In "real life" I build electronic equipment that is used by artists to make electronic and/or video art. Explaining Poser is easy compared to explaining that to the average person. ;~)

I tell people I build and sell 3d models. After the initial 'Huh?' and ensuing explanations leading to even more confusion, the next question is, 'But who buys them? And what do they do with them?' That's when I give up. mac PS Brian Eno is one of the few TRUE artists in this world.

I make the textures and scenes from the models Anton or Noggins made, use them in the proper program where they need to be and intergrate them with my photography and video of special effects i make, i read the script, and i make the storyboard. from there is where i start to make a movie, animation, commericals and a whole lot more. Of course i use 7 computer programs to achive this feat. For making a movie or films does take a lot of thought and alot of time. My time, computer time, and of course Render time.

I play with Barbie and Ken in the computer I put cloths on them and move them around then print posters. Barbie and Ken are still popular today and are a billion doallar a year bussiness so why can't I. Generally I say I paint on the computer, riases less eyebrows and less questions afterward. Brian Eno is a knob turner blah. once he left Roxy Music I didn't care about his 'music', and I play with barbie and ken, works out hahaha.

I have been using the virtual Barbie analogy for a while now, people can relate to the clothes thing with her. Saying I make virtual clothing is just too painful to explain, and really makes me look like a female computer geek with glasses that has no life!!!

"Brian Eno used to say he was an accountant if anybody asked what he did. Nobody asks for further details that way." He must have started using that line when he learned that his former response, "Well, I'm not a musician," was invariably met with a barrage of incredulous questions. :-) "Brian Eno is a knob turner blah." Actually, he's a brilliant out of the box thinker whose ideas and work had an immense influence on 20th Century (and beyond) aesthetics. It's the music he made after Roxy that matters, and moreover, the approachto and philosophy of the music-making, which relates very much to the Poser world. That is, "you don't have to be an artist to make good art." Isn't that what Poser helps to enable for many? ;-) I find the question Anton raises somewhat difficult to answer, so I basically just say "I do computer-aided illustration as a hobby, using a program called Poser that specializes in figurative rendering, one one called Vue d'Esprit that makes beautiful landscapes." "Computer-aided" gets me into trouble, though. People then say "Oh, CAD!," meaning engineering-related tasks. :-) My friends who are successful working artists in the gallery/museum circuit don't take my Poser habit seriously at all, they just change the subject if I bring it up. Real nice, huh? :-

hilarious dialogue Anton. I usually avoid discussing poser with people who don't use it. Its either an awkward explanation to somebody who doesn't know/doesn't care or ::gasp! a 3d modeller who thinks that anything besides modelling a ferarri in LW is a "waste of time" and its a whole big controversy. I guess telling someone what poser is like is akin to trying to describe what an avocado tastes like; words just don't suffice. :)

When I was playing with Poser it was more like a hobby I didn't talk about much. Now that I'm selling in the Marketplace I've had to explain to some family members and co-workers what I'm doing. (I'm terrible that way; I'm one of those people who is always blabbing about what is exciting them this week). What the "muggle" (or 'danes as we used to call them in SF fandom) really wants to know is where the art comes in. The tools are so unfamiliar they can't get their minds around how we interact with it and express ourselves. In many cases they have a distinct aversion to the computer anyhow, so it just doesn't make emotional sense to them that as a 3D artist I am as engaged with the material as I am with clay, or acrylics (both of which I have done in the past). The computer seems to them a barrier, a hostile servant that only speaks in Oracular Riddles, and they can not understand the comfort level wherin I can forget the machine and almost literally feel the mesh under my fingers. The "muggles" are also, to borrow another useful set of terms, often Eloi. To the Eloi a computer is a magic box that issues forth facts and creations. The Morlock sees the computer as a pipe; you put data in one end, you get data out the other. What comes out of the computer is entirely dependent on what went into the programming. So there is a giant divide there between where the work is seen as being done. (Even more than that, Art itself is often seen as a similar black-box, a muse that Artists have and they don't, something inside the Artist that when prodded issues forth with creation. Out of this mistaken impression of the creative process comes all those romanticisations about tortured artists and drunken writers challenging bulls before throwing themselves down at a battered typewriter. ) I had to go through all this when I first got into MIDI music. It is much worse now since the rise of the DJ style, where it is taken for granted that large chunks of existing musical works are taken and recombined in new ways. As a MIDI composer I play a piano keyboard just like a real musician. The only difference is that when I hit a key, I don't get the single note of a felt-covered hammer hitting a string; I get the single note of a good flute player sounding a single Bflat. The computer doesn't do dang all for me except help me erase some of my mistakes from the recording. If there is an A-natural in the final recording, that was my finger slipping, not anything the computer did or didn't do. But that does open up the disjunct. We are really more like directors, or art directors for a magazine; we don't use the seemingly simple fragment of red paint on a brush but a larger fragment into which several artistic collaborators poured their efforts. A director, after all, does not act all the parts. She trusts the lighting people and camera people and sound recordists and so forth to do all those technical things they do and leaves to themselves only the upper level of control. A director won't --usually -- say "Give me a four-bar theme in A Major voiced in major thirds and orchestrated for a section of four trumpets, six trombones, french horns 1-3 and 2-4," they'll say "give me something heroic and brassy." And of course they'll also say "No, no, John; faster than that. And more up-beat." Of course, anyone who has tangled with traditional materials knows that control is an illusion there, also. When you do sumi-e on hand-made paper you have little control over where there is a darker spot, where the brush spalls out a little or how it runs out at the end of the stroke. With even the traditional materials you are accepting the richness of texture, of complexity and detail, of those materials, and doing your best to integrate them into the final work. As more than one sculptor has said "I don't carve a figure; I free the figure that was already in the stone." And, going back to that black box of creativity, the artist does not see this solid black line with "creative" on one side and "technical" on the other. They shade. When I draw in pencil I am using both sides of my brain; consulting anatomy books and measuring head lengths, but also eyeballing things and using instinct to how I want the character to look. There is rarely a point at which I can say "these four lines are done with math and rulers and stuff, and these next four lines will be completely creative." The kind of tool makes no difference....synthesizer or Yamaha baby grand, pencil or Poser. There is only the degree of control and the restrictions of the medium and the constant input from the creative eye through all phases of what is done. So what do I say? As you may have gathered, I like to talk. I also like to teach. I've rarely had to sum up what I do in 3d in a few words. To computer-knowledgable people I've said; "I make 3rd-party material to expand the presets library of a popular low-end 3d rendering program called Poser." Imagine translating THAT into "muggle!"

Explaining my Poser addiction to Muggles is like explaining what I do at the university to the administrative staff. They usually just stand there and look at me in a professional but confused way, nod a couple of times, say "right..." and wander off to find more easily understood people to annoy

When Muggles see my gallery here at Rosity, they go 'Gee wow, how do you DO that!!!???' And I kind of try to explain how it's a 3D model that you can walk around behind, so it's there from all angles, not just flat like on a piece of paper. And they look all blank and I say, 'Well it's a lot of work with lights and stuff' and they're happy with that. Sort of like trying to understand how a magician does his stuff I guess. Like the man says, 'Let them keep guessing'. That's fine by me lol. It's the same when I work with animation in Director (what I do for a living) or compose music on the computer (also do that for a living). I can lay a whole soundtrack for a short movie in a few days - and the customer loves it. And they go 'How do you DO that!' and I just laugh. They don't actually expect an intelligible answer. I mean, the fact that I can do it is what sets me apart from them - it's what gives me the opportunity to make a living from it. So a little guessing is a good thing! :] Fish

Oh yes - another thing. I had 2 female customers here once. They work with video. (I'm male and 47, by the way). I showed them my Gallery and they went totally nuts! So of course there was the usual 'How do you DO that' thing. And for once I sat down with Poser to show them. I hauled out one of the scenes they'd seen in my gallery. And I spun the Vicki around and moved her arms and tweaked her clothes and hair and so on. Showed them how I could scale her boobs up and down and change her face and stuff. And then I looked at the two of them - 42 and 28, serious types both of them - and they were sitting there with their eyes on stalks, practically drooling. Sort of 'OOOOOOOoooooo I wanna play with Barbie too!!' sort of thing. The whole thing started with me wondering if it was a good idea to let them into my little Poser secret at all - and it ended with them SO impressed and envious, it was hilarious! :] Fish

You write a nice little bit of music. The non-musician asks about it, and you say; "Oh, it's pretty formulaic. Just an AABA in D minor. Pretty much just a little three-note motif starting on D and sequencing up through the scale. Block chords behind it, some noodling around during the bridge." The blank look comes REAL fast. It ain't just the tech-speak. To them, every single note came out of the creative impulse. Only that ARTIST thing told you to put a Bflat there, not an B-natural. Whereas you know damn well there's no B-natural in that key; the only note that makes any SENSE is a Bflat. Oh, you might have raised the fifth here and there, thrown in some blue notes, but pretty much the grammer told you how to play those chords. And as for that inverted seventh...geez, it's easier to slide your fingers around than to play the chord straight. Which is by the way my sum total of musical knowledge. I said I played keyboards, not that I was any good at it! Remembering now the great time I had telling my mom that I sold a pair of shoes 57 times....

He he he. I just fired up the keyboad to see if I COULD make a three-note sequence in D minor with some block chords behind it. Made a cool little tune!

well poser filled a gap in a passion i have about photography.. so most of the time i either say : i want to photograph beautiful models but i cannot afford a digital camera a poto studio and paying beautiful models for photoshot seances, orfor toons, i cannot draw with my crippled hand, so i found a tool that compensae myhandiccap, using computer... it is like a whelchair for a paraplegic that's all :)

I tried using technical terms with my folks...finally gave up. Now I tell Mom, I "manipulate wankers on very naked males"... grin Well, Mike IS naked, no? Of course, it didn't exactly help my case none...

well at the end i wil be so fed up that i'll say: i just push a "render button" and "voil!" :) but poser addiction and lack of abiltiy to expalin can be embarassing.; i remember past motnh, i had to quue into a telecom shop, waiting for my turn.. and next to me there was a pretty girl (don't care..) but with such BAUTIFUL clear and detailed eyes.. i was struggling on my eye/iris texure at that time, and i admit i did not even paid attention, i was simply starign at her on any angle very close up, to see her irises and eyes and print their pattern and details into my mind for further use... sure she felt embarassed and all, and i had to explain i was drawign on computer eye pictures to go on 3d human characters... and her own were very perfetct examples :) i felt dumb at a moment :)

btw how do you descrbie those who do not make textures nor models... nor maybe even light sets and so on ? i mean, i saw pictures her eand there using variosu stuff from anyone 'free or rmp), but i can swear you could not get same results just out of the "zip"files and using render button :)

I aquired Poser 4 in a rather unique way. A good (and rather rich) friend of mine needed some electric wiring done in his basement. I, being an electrician, helped him out. Since he's a friend I told him just to pay for materials - the labor is free. He wanted to argue about paying me but, finally gave up. A few weeks later I saw him at a local bar and he handed me a software box (Poser 4 still in shrinkwrap). It was his way of thanks for the work I did and he knew about my interest in 3D. Needless to say, I don't get blank stares from him when I babble about it. As for the "muggles" I meet, most of them are graphic designers of some sort, so the blank stares are usually rare for me. My Dad was a different story. He's 70 and is a master of MS Excel. Therefore, he swore up and down that my renders were cut/paste jobs in APS. I finally made a small video of Victoria switching through all of the display styles while the camera did a 360 degree pan around her. This seemed to settle his curiousity. Seeing people as parts - yep, I do that now. It drives my friends nuts when I see a beautiful woman and say "Man, she'd make a really good V3 morph!" It doesn't work too well as a pick-up line though :) For those who don't know Brian Eno, check out the song "Under" on the Cool World soundtrack. Good stuff! And totally off-topic - check out VNV Nation... VERY talented knob twisters!

Whatever way I try to explain, it always seems to get the same
response: "Oh, so you just push the button and the computer makes
the picture." sigh >.

I'm not sure I even know any muggles. Most of my friends are very computer literate or artists or both. In fact, one couple - she's a painter and web designer and he's a photographer. Whenever they come over they're always "what are you working on lately?" and I show them and she usually says "wish I could layout a texture like that, it looks totally cool" and he's "wish my models were as easy to pose" :) I did have the lady at the cutting table at the fabric store ask me what I was going to do with all those trims and fabrics I was having cut and I told her that first I was going to scan them into the computer so I could use them in art projects and then I was going to make covers for my throw pillows (the fabrics were holiday themed stuff). She thought the trims would make great web stuff and the throw pillow covers was a neat idea. No blank stare.

{I just ask if they've seen the movie Simone- if not go see it. } I loved that movie! It was a hilarious comedy! I couldn't stop laughing. For anyone who hasn't seen it, the movie is about a computer-illiterate director (Al Pacino) who gets a computer "actress" from a techie guy. He (Al Pacino) then inserts the computer actress into his movies, basically by sliding her into the scene. Now, if you've seen any part of the making of The Two Towers or Return of the King (or even Star Wars: Episode I), you'll leanr how complex it is to actually add a CGI character to a scene. During shooting, the computer artists take tons of measurements to calculate lighting and shadows. (I doubt this was done on the Simone "movies".) Then the computer artists have to accurately model textures, lighting, wind, and other atmospheric effects on the character. And in the case of Simone, hair blowing in the wind. Suffice to say that only TWO effects companies (with teams of people) have been able to succesffuly make us believe that a CGI character was in the entire movie. So, it seriously strains credibility to believe that one person could make an entire, full-length movie using a CGI character. But I'm getting off topic. What do I say when a Muggle asks me what I do? I've never met a Muggle, so I guess I wouldn't know what to say.

Err....sorry, guys, but.... What are 'Muggles'?

I'd thought it was a tribute to the power of modern culture that we'd got this far without anybody asking that. In the Harry Potter stories, a muggle is anybody "normal", i.e. not a wizard.

Muggles..y'know..non-magic folk
-Hagrid, Harry Potter and the Philospher's Stone..;) shouldna said that..;)

I'd never heard this coinage before but on reflection I should have seen it coming. I grew up, after all, when "Fans were Slans" (to paraphrase a quote). I never liked drawing a line, especially one that puts "us" as the tiny-misunderstood-minority-that's-really-so-much-smarter-than-everyone-else people. As the t-shirt joke goes, "There are 10 kinds of people in the world -- those that understand binary and those that don't." I don't care what the label is; muggle or normal or turkey or 'dane....it is unfair and dismissive and can lead to a dangerous false sense of superiority. It is useful, however, to have language to talk about that moment when somene asks "So how DO you do art on a computer?" (Or worse yet; "what are all those naked people doing on your computer?") Just use it in good humor and don't be too serious about it! (Heck, as far as the nakies go, everyone I know with a life drawing/anatomy background sketches the nude first, then adds clothes. It's easier to do it that way. But some of the people looking over your shoulder get a little, "Um....is this gonna be a nude?") Pre-coffee post. Rambling enough for you?

niomuse - No, mostly pointless. Anton's original post was anything but elitist - this is just some fun and an easy way to introduce the issue and start a discussion. So don't bother with the 'serious' argument - we're NOT being serious - well maybe a couple here - and remember that in another area I'll be the Muggle and the other guy is the Wizard. So it all evens out anyway :o) :] Fish - fully aware that I'm not special in any way just because I understand how 3D works.

I'm never serious.

I get a lot of blank stares and nods like I'm not in my right mind.

Yesterday however, I had the laptop on at work and the PoserPros forum on the screen. A customer recognized it and asked if I used Poser. He gave me his card and I pointed him towards the forums.
Big difference from my usual "what is that?" conversations. :)

One of our local artists did some artwork the outside of my building a couple of years ago and I found out he was a poser user and a Renderosity member. :)