Attached Link: an example of the old flames

hiya fractal community, If someone is rendering my starter flames and generating a huge following by uploading them to the gallery am I wrong in asking to be acknowledged! I have noticed the old paramaters I uploaded around a year ago are floating around lately! the paramaters were called the a.l.f. series! (astral light forms)if you look at page three in my gallery you will see how old the paramters are! they have recently been rendered as the 'cosmic constellation series' and 'odyseyy of sorts' , 'the abyss' there are too many renders of my paramaters to mention!

the original flame zips in the fractal free stuff I made available had a seperate txt document stating the user should acknowledge where they
got the flames from!

All im asking is, is it wrong for other fractalist to get credit for flame renders they have made from my flames without acknowledging where originaly they came from?

An old Chinese proverb says: Who once was your teacher be grateful to for the rest of your life. (I hope that was engflish)

I think if you change a flame so that it is unrecognisable from the original then you should be at liberty to call it your own. However, if you can still recognise your parameters in other people's flames, then I think they certainly owe you an acknowledgement. Just my opinion for what it's worth.

Here is one of my images.

I have to admit that when I first started out with Apo I just used other people's starter flames to get going, so I suppose they do have their use for 'newbies'. However, I couldn't get over the feeling that if I used someone else's flame to start with then the image wasn't 100% mine and soon realised how easy it is to make your own anyway - so I agree with Keith - you don't need them Patti. Funny how I don't have the same feeling using someone's UF formulas - just as well really 'cos I wouldn't know where to start writing my own and have no interest in learning how to do it. M

Ummmm....maybe he didn't mean you....just my $.02

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=771876&Start=19&Artist=Cyble13&ByArtist=Yes

From "My God, it's full of stars!" backwards to "She's Come Undone" on page 2 of my gallery are all variations from that same starter pack (Flames Flames Flames) and I LOVED working those params and thank you Stefano muchly. :)) Credit was given on linked image.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=772402&Start=19&Artist=Cyble13&ByArtist=Yes

And another credit on this one.This starter pack actually renewed my interest in apo after an extended "lethargy" with fracs in general.No matter who plays with em, they are uniquely Stefano's and recognizable as such.

This is in response to an IM and email that I received from a very kind person who offered me some of her own params, so that I could start over with a "CLEAN SLATE" and with out any strings attached to them. This is the explaination that I wrote that person. She is one of God's Angels, I hope that all of you get to know her one way or another!!! Copy of IM: I don't even know where to begin! You are the most kindest generous person that I have ever met!!! I have been crying my eyes out for the past day and a half. I'm the one that IM'd him and thanked him for the starters several nights ago. When I first started apo, like a stupid idiot, when I received starters from the fractal repository, I downloaded everything (being an eager beaver)well once unzipped, some of the folders contained several sets of starter groups all listed with different names like (flames flames flames) then I stuck all of them into the apo param file and started going through them like crazy. I found a few favs. and stuck with them for several months. My param file got so full that I was going through all of the params and trashing some. When I found 3 or 4 sets that looked pretty good so I tried them again and love the results. I had them for so long that I could not remember who or where I had gotten them from!!!! Not until a few nights ago when MrP posted one, then I began to do my search and foung out that I had gotten them from the repository. I IM'd him and explained everything to him and he laughed about it!!! After several IM's and my apologizing over and over, I felt much better and I worked for hours on an image just for him and dedication giving his params the praise of all of the past related images that I had made with his stuff. All of the comment that he left after going back over my gallery and all of the IM's never once did he act pissed off. I was so shocked when I read the forum. I am thinking about doing a swan song image and giving it a rest for a while. I have been sooooo embarrassed and humiliated, I am ashamed to show my face around here any more!!!!! Thank you for the new params, This will give me something to work on until I decide to show my face again!! Again you are one of God's Angels!!! Love Ya a lot! Patti P.S. I am going to post this on the forum hoping that it will better explain my mistake and that I tried to do my best to make up for it!!!! (Don't worry I wont mention names)

Hi Patti Please don't be afraid to 'show your face' here - I'm sure we can all see that it was a genuine mistake that you have done your best to rectify - there's no shame in that. I hope both of you will try to forgive and forget now although I'm sure it won't be easy!

Patti has clearly got the wrong end of the stick here! my posting wasnt a personal attack at all, or intended public humiliation, far from it.

"Patti, you are not being attacked here"!

the dedication image from coolbreezylady WAS lovely but it still didnt acknowledge the flames origins!
I did include other examples from other artists in my initial query.

If coolbreezylady wants to bow out thats her standing but im sincerely not asking for that of her or anyone, judging by the i.m. ive been getting that would mean over half the fractal community should bow out!!!

my question to the community was and still is a genuine query not an attack.

I re-iterate :- 'All im asking is, is it wrong for other fractalist to get credit for flame renders they have made from MrP's flames without acknowledging where originaly they came from?'

So, to the community, what is your opinion?

Stefano

I think if you change a fractal - be it Apo, UF or anything else - so that it is unrecognisable from the original then you should be at liberty to call it your own. However if your parameters can still be recognised in other people's flames, then I think they certainly owe you an acknowledgement - if you require one. I have starter flames for free download on my website (for some reason they couldn't accept them here in the Free Stuff section although I know they download OK because I have spoken to people who use them) When I say free, I mean exactly that, there are no strings, I don't want any acknowledgement - if I felt the need for someone to acknowledge me every time they used one I wouldn't give them away in the first place, I'd use them myself! However, unless it is made perfectly clear that no acknowledgement is required I think it should be given as a courtesy if, as I say above, the original parameters can still be recognised. This is always a contentious issue - when is an image truly yours - but I think people should always look at the intent behind it - did someone really try to 'steal' your original and claim it as their own or was it just a helpful basis for them to start their own creation. Well my twopennyworth has developed into nearly 1 so I guess I'll get off my soapbox! M

I have a four of questions, just like Mag61: 1) How far down the line does one have to make changes before a starter can become your own work or style? 2) Does any of my work look like any of MrP's starters (found on Fractal Repository)or any of his posted and present work, did I not go far enough down the line or will I ever be able to call them mine? 3) Richard got one of my images that I have recycled many, many, many times, why embarrass him for what you claim was my fault, you even mentioned that about my "COSMIC CONSTELLATION COLLECTION" that is where his image came from? 4)If someone uses your free download params will they forever be, beholding to you and have to add your name to every image that they create with, what you called some of your old and forgotten params? Anyone feel free to answer, I really need to know some answers before I decide to post a "SWAN SONG" image and if I stay is everyone going to make me feel unwanted from now on!!!!

Personally, if I offer any starter flames (or even "proper" finished flame parms) to anyone, I do it with the understanding that they are going to make wonderful works of art out of them... and that is plenty good enough for me. I started going through a pile of Mr P's starter flames that I had downloaded from the Fractal Repository some time ago... and with only some exceptions, I would say that about 90% of those that I looked at I have had happen in random batches that Apo creates by default (or with judicious use of the included spiral scripts)... so where does "ownership" of a certain flame begin or end? Should Mr P be acknowledging the author of the spiral scripts he has used to create the starter flames... or the creator of Apo itself? OK - so in this case, some artists have admitted the fact that they may have used some of Mr P's starter flames to create some amazing images - but isn't the act of tweaking, adding a funky gradient, etc likely to change said flame enough to make it truly their own work anyways? Besides, none of the Mr P flame sets that I downloaded made any mention of having to credit Mr P for providing said starter flames... CoolBreezeLady - you have exceptional talent my friend - regardless of where the original starter flame came from. I know that you will continue to create absolutely stunning images with or without the help of certain starter flame sets... lol! T.

OK...Here's my puny ideas. If I take a starter flame then open the Mutation window and click on one of the mutations...then that flame has just begun the journey to becoming my own. If I add 2 scripts, go twelve mutations deep, then apply 4 filters in post...that image is mine. Make sense? I mean...where do you draw the line. Someone uses your starter flame to make an image, but they also used a mouse, a monitor, a computer, a program, electricity...in a house, in a country, on a planet... Where do you begin with the credits??? When you made the starter flames, did you thank Mark Townsend? Bill Gates? God? Here's the thing. When you made the starter flames available to the public, the idea was, "Well, now that I have some experience with the program, I'm going to help other people." And you felt good about it, and rightly so. You should at this point be clapping and cheering for the people that have taken your generosity and done good things with it. Not crying because you aren't getting whatever recognition you feel you deserve. None of us truly start from scratch.... Am I wrong? (p.s. I noticed that you forgot to give credit for the coloring algorithm that you used on your latest image...)

Attached Link: some older flames

so I get the impression from the thread here that the consensus IS that it IS ok to render an unchanged flame paramter and call it your own!

As an example and with Alisons (CYBLE13) permission here is a few links to some of what I would say explain my point!

http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=934073&Start=19&Artist=Cyble13&ByArtist=Yes

http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=772402&Start=19&Artist=Cyble13&ByArtist=Yes

http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=771876&Start=19&Artist=Cyble13&ByArtist=Yes

http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=789486&Start=19&Artist=Cyble13&ByArtist=Yes

the above flames surpass the original paramaters as opposed to just rendering the actual free paramaters!

Is it just me or can any one else appreciate or see the difference between the two.

And also!! whats all this 'they are either free or they are not free'?

If people are making money using the paramaters I made available ....GOOD FOR YOU!!!! well done!! ;)

they are free ! they were free and always will be free!

free the flames!!!!!!!

oh and if we are now getting all kindergarden pernickety Thanks to Scott Draves, Apophysis + all who have helped developed it and write its scripts!!!,Fractint, Tierazon, in fact all the fractal and non fratcal software I have ever used!! ,renderosity, xenodream, photoshop, oh, so that will include adobe and all the employees there! :) microsoft, u , them ,they ,us, etc
! thankyou to every body who has commented on my work and also those of you who have removed comments recently too I appreciate all comments good or bad and removal of comments is the biggest comment I can get! :) LOL! oh, and everything that has helped and inspired my creative pursuits!! and last but not least.... god!

thankyou !

coooooooool!

keep it coming your opinions are important.

"so I get the impression from the thread here that the consensus IS that it IS ok to render an unchanged flame paramter and call it your own!" No... that is not what I meant at all... If someone just renders an unchanged flame parameter and calls it their own - that is called plagiarism. If someone changes the flame parameters and creates something somewhat different with them, then that is OK by me... even if those changes are not necessarily huge ones, the effort has been made to do something creative with those parameters. However, one also should take into account that with the sheer number of people using Apophysis, that someone is also possibly going to create something from scratch that looks a heck of a lot like someone else's work... what do we do in those cases? Do we tell people that a particular style is the realm of another artist, and that anything even looking like their work should have some acknowledgement to that artist? I'm just of the opinion that if we offer up flame parameters for free to all comers, we can't really get too precious about what some people will do with those parameters... The world is a very strange place, full of people with all sorts of moral backgrounds - some will acknowledge where a flame might have come from, and others won't. Simple human nature my friend... Personally, I have 28 starter flame sets of Mr P's - in directories designated such - the sheer volume and range of styles of those flames is phenominal... and the possibility of me creating something by accident that looks very similar to any of those starter flames is also pretty high. But I have never even used any of those flames... I only started to look at them when I read this thread... lol! T.

i don't quite understand what you wants really, you give parameters away for free and later complain about it that your name isn't mentioned or something? like at the poser gallery, ya have to tell which hair and face you used when ya upload something which you didn't develop yourself? lol then ya should have patented the parameter!!! have a nice day Harmen

I read an article by the creator of Apophysis that said be careful what you give away as far as parameters if you are worried about what someone else may do with them. if you are being unselfish and sharing your stuff then you must realize that you have no control over it once you give it away. I personally have given credit to whoever shared directly with myself, and I will continue to do so. I appreciate the many vauable friendships I have aquired here at Renderosity. if someone asks for a parameter from a posted image, I will share it. Without Mr Mark Townsend, none of us would have the priviege of using a incredible program like Apophysis

I believe all he is saying is that the flames he so generously shared and discovered are free indeed with one small clause.A nod in the notes. I know when I see other artists variations of those particular flames when I see them.Others may not, if they've never downloaded Stefano's flame pack's.All they see is the same thing everyone else has noticed.A distictly different apo flame which Stefano wants a little credit for finding. I didnt give credit in my notes on ALL of my variations on his designs but I did try to make them different than the ones he originally shared WHICH WASNT EASY.His starters in that flame pack tend to be one-two colors and the triangles are VERY touchy and tiny.They all also tend to have but one main variation, spherical. I wasnt actually sure where I had gotten the flame pack either but when he posted that he thought "Convergance Of The Infinate" looked similar to the flames he made available on his site, I looked into it and it was indeed an offshoot of one of his starters so I gave credit and made a point to change them enough to make them different than his.

this thread is full of very interesting and diverse replies, i do apprecciate all of them!

Why in the world would someone need a "starter flame" to figure out an application as mind-numbingly simple as Apophysis in the first place??? And why in the world would all these people post these files and open themselves up to having their hard work stolen or misused??? Vanity? For sure! ..."see how much BETTER than you I am and how NICE I am to help a DUMMY like YOU make something half-way decent"!..."psst, btw I posted today - did you V?...hint, hint...."old pal"... Or maybe they really are just nice... IMO, these files, though maybe well intentioned, and the very limited types and scripts possible in Apop are largely responsible for the grinding lack of originality in many flame images these days. Everyone either uses the same script or starts at the same points - no wonder they all look the same and now everyone's buggin'! Its not very hard if you put in the time to render random batches and move the triangles yourself and probably many users of this program have made flames on their own very like these before. I certainly have. They are certainly nice but not unique. It would be like if everybody used the exact same formula with UF, FracEx or FractInt or the same holon in XD. Like Deagol said - "build them yourself". You'd get a much better sense of accomplishment that way, non? Btw, T, "plagiarism" isn't the word you're looking for. It's called "copyright infringement" and it's a violation of the TOS and federal and international law - yet they just lightly slapped the hand of FRAUD for blatant and repeated image theft. Where is the outrage from the community over this??? And from her friends whom she played for fools by lying to them about these being her own creations??? Though, I agree maybe Mr. P gave up his copyright when he posted the par's for free use....and the flames do look changed at least a little bit and I'm not saying there was or wasn't infringement in the cases mentioned above in this thread...

I would have to agree on the art theft point.I recall one artist in particular who was BANNED for mentioning that they had received and used a "gift" copy of paint shop pro in their notes.BOOM! She BANNED! No slap, no tickle, no more NOTHING on Rendo. Just because Jasc is a corporation losing $$$ ???Zero tolerance!!"Borrowing" art and removing an artists NAME, then reposting it in YOUR art gallery, not once, not twice, but repeatedly isnt worth batting an eyelid around here obviously.Those pictures remained where they were for a week before they were finally deleted and the thread of discovery was locked and then deleted PROMPTLY.Within DAYS. What up with THAT? Back on TOPIC: "Why in the world would someone need a "starter flame" to figure out an application as mind-numbingly simple as Apophysis in the first place??? And why in the world would all these people post these files and open themselves up to having their hard work stolen..." Mind numbingly simple??? Apo? Yes, the program is easy to use and NO, its not easy finding appealing flames. He's not saying his work was STOLEN.He's saying they arent far off the mark from the original flames and he wanted some credit for the original params.THAT in fact IS simple. Vanity and ego/pats on the back are all part of this community, like it or not. Did Keith discover the sphere in UF??? Hell, I dont know but every time I see a fractal with a sphere in it, I think of Keith...and every time I see one of yesitis' or coolbreezelady's "cosmic" flames posted, I'll think of Stefano.Guilt by association so to speak. LOL!

I reckon what is being described here is more along the lines of plagiarism than copyright infringement, my fine friend... The instance of a series of flames that are somewhat different from the original in some way - yet still have many aspects the same - that would qualify as plagiarism... if one were to be nitpicky anyways... lol! Taking the original parameters, rendering them and posting them as your own - that is copyright infringement. A subtle difference, but a difference nonetheless... and plagiarism is not against the law where I live... As for the other topic brought up (again) - I do believe there is another thread going that deals with that... shall we keep it there? Also - to the uninitiated fractal newbie - Apophysis is not so darned easy to understand or use. Yes, it is definitely easier than, say, UF, for the newbie to learn - but I can remember not so long ago when it had me totally stumped... still does sometimes... lol! Maybe people offering up starter flame sets could name their actual starter flames? Then people may remember where they've come from when they want to credit the original person who offered those flame sets? For example:- Mr P could name his starter flames "MrP-xxyyzzz" - where xx = the year, yy = the month, and zzz = the number of the flame in that particular set. It would certainly be much less confusing than the "naming system" in the sets that I've got... lol! Then again, one could write a script to rename flames inside sets... shouldn't be too difficult for some of the script guru's here... Some uniformity to the number of flames one drops in their sets wouldn't go astray either... grrr! 25 is a good number per set IMHO. T.

If someone wants credit for starter flames used as a starting point, then they need to state it in the download. But, if a flame of someone's is rendered 'unchanged' by someone else, than that is infringement. Nick

In looking back on my post to this thread, it occurs to me that the first paragraph in it was awfully mean-spirited and I think an apology is in order (and, no, I wasn't told to do this - conscience...) to the people who try to help others learn Apop. I've had people help me in the past, too, and other than the bit of natural self satisfaction they may have felt, I'm sure they only meant well and to be helpful and friendly. I'm sorry to have flown off the handle with that dreck. No excuses. This is all a very touchy subject in light of recent events. I do stick with the second part. Though, maybe as the Apop software is becoming expanded, there will be more varied possiblilities. Avram

Attached Link: http://classyladytwo.com/fractal_stuff.htm

#1 why do you have your original flame in a starter set? change it enough so others can create their own images #2 if you wanted credit then state so in your read me file #3 any flame I have in any of my starter sets have been changed slighting I do not , nor want any credit they are given freely in mine, read the read me file, which you should also have in each set you freely give to others. If you want credit then don't make them available, I seem to remember you taking mine and making your own batch and claiming them as your own. I'm sorry I have a problem with this forum mainly because if you give something freely why do you need a self image booster that the original flame came from you. If people want to be kind enough to list an acknowledgement thats fine if not thats okay too. After all they are starter flames given freely, if you want credit then state so in a read me file. Some people may think I don't check the forums or even check the gallery, well I guess you know now I do. All my starter flames are free to use as you see fit read the read me file all we ask is that they not be available for download from other site without our permission nothing more.

QUOTE from Mr. P from first thread: "the original flame zips in the fractal free stuff I made available had a seperate txt document stating the user should acknowledge where they got the flames from!" Geez.If you dont agree with that, then DONT USE EM. He wanted a little credit/mention for a whole SERIES of flames born from his starters.I personally didn't have any problem with it.Why should anyone else??!!What's the harm in that? Ego's too big to share the spotlight with a nice fella who shared some flames you obviously thought enough of to render/play with, or what???

I started with APO 1 back in 2004, then progressed through the various 2 series. Not once have I ever downloaded someone else's freebies, and yet I can remember creating flames similar to ones I've seen over the year.(including Mr. P's) If you sit down with a decent flame and run a couple of hundred mutations, you're going to get things that look like everyone else's. For heaven sakes people. They are flames. Pretty colored squiggles that make you smile. They're not the life blood of the universe. They don't feed the poor or stop wars. They are just flame fractals. Yeesh. So much ado about nothing.

Yes Quiet Riot....sad isn't it?

"I seem to remember you taking mine and making your own batch and claiming them as your own." Oooohhhh! Now it's getting interesting... is that true? T.

To everyone concerned: I have decided that I am going to remove all images in question! If there are any that are left that look like any of your work please IM me and I will remove that image, too! MrP probably has another 30 or maybe 40 years that I know I don't have to create a world full of master pieces from his free downloads and I hope he enjoys them. Even the one that I dedecated to him has been deleted and is also no longer even in his (Favorite Images area), if he wants one he can create it for himself! Thanks for all the wonderful comments everyone left on what MrP says is all his works of art! Happy days for all, Patti

Cyble13, if there are any of your works in my gallery, then PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!! And I will gladly remove those too!!!

You know.... It IS completely possible for others to come up with flames much like someone elses. If in fact, there was a statement along with a download that stipulates credit to be given if used, then credit should be given. However, since these Freestuff items in question are no longer on Rendo, I cannot verify that the stipulation of credit was included. Was it in fact included? Anyone? Nick

It's getting way too dramatic in here, that's for sure.I never said anything about anyone's art resembling mine nor is anything I said a personal attack on anyone.My only point was that I worked some of Stefano's flames and gave him credit for using his starters, as he wished.I downloaded them from his site.Not here, from free stuff.
I havent used anyone elses flame starters or I would have mentioned them in the notes of anything that came from it.
As a common courtesty and with a thank you.
The question posed: is it wrong not to acknowledge someone elses starter flames?
It's been answered several different ways.
I posted my OPINION.
Regardless of whether or not anyone else thinks they are "unique"...I DO. Not that I know squat about flames or have used apophysis for a while now.rolling eyes

Message edited on: 07/20/2005 04:54

oh so what i understand from all this is, that mr.P. 'borrowed' some flame parameters from ms. C. and made them as if it were mr.P's and gave them away freely, and now ask to get credit from it by others who uses mr.P's 'borrowed' mrs. C's parameters who shared them with others without demanding the credits ... so in short, who uses parameters from flames doesn't have to put credits of mr. P's because no one is sure if they were mr. P's or mrs. C's ROFL i'd say, mr. P. ... get over it, and start SMILING BTW whenever you use them parameters, you can say now, its made with the help of PC Have a nice day Harmen

OOPS lol well i get it now: after mr.P. whispered to me in IM: it's PPPPPP Proper Preparations Prevents Prick Poor Problems have a good day SMILE

Okay, I am going to jump right in here with my two-cents worth and hopefully not offend most of the fractal-flame community! Here is how I see it!
The only person who ever created 'original' flames is Mark Townsend! He created the Apophysis program! I have yet to see anyone give him credit! Every image we 'create' is from what he originally did!
Honestly, to me if someone requests that we give them credit for the starter flames they provide, I think it is the courteous thing to do! However, if the starter is just that, a 'starter' a foundation on which to build a different flame image, then to me the person who is generating a lot of comments added their own flair, their own unique ability to change that starter, to make it 'their own'.

When I send starter flames to people I ask them to change the image by using the x-forms, and the gradient, to in effect make it their own and I don't ask for acknowledgement.
We are all individuals, we all have different talents, different ideas and beliefs of what beauty, what 'art' is. I don't want my art to look like anyone elses, however because we use the same program Apophysis, we can come up with some of the same parameters on our own that other people have too! I have seen identical images to some of mine. The only difference was the gradient was different! That is a mathematical possibility, after all!
I think it is a shame that something like this is causing hurt feelings among any of these great and creative artists!
'Nuff said?
Leanndra

I think it would be best to put this to rest now.