Now I think DAZ Meshes are killer meshes.

But I think a lot of meshes are killer even Possetta,Dork From Poser 4 are killer meshes.

I just have Poser 4,5 Don't know about the stock meshes from Poser 6,7 yet.

Anyways Possetta,Dork From Poser 4 seems to be abandoned

P4 Possetta poly count 16,380

P5 Judy woman poly count 24,387

A3,V3,M3 unimesh polycount 74,510

Then you add morphs it takes a hole minute to load A3 in Poser 5.

This absolutly drives me insain beyound words.

Then we add huge textures.

The heads mesh is so hi I have no idea how they can tweak it.

I do not have V4 yet but I was told the Polycount is a little lower.

They make a V3,M3 Low Polycount but don't see alot of 3rd party merchandise sold for it.

No A3 Low Polycount mesh that I know of

Did they make a Low Polycount V4 ?

Anyways I don't get why the most popular meshes are the ones with the polycount 74,510,+ large morphs,and we add enormous textures etc etc

So could some one explain this to me ?

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

I think DAZ tried to sell us the idea about 'more polys, more realism'...

I guess the most popluar meshes are the ones we can do the most with, regardless of the poly count. Whether or not these meshes need to be so poly heavy, I don't know, but so long as the mesh gives us enough versatlity then this is what counts. It can be a pain when importing alot of figures into a scene though.

Ironrodent

Then you add morphs it takes a hole minute to load A3 in Poser 5.

What kind of system are you running?
I've just got a 3ghz processor and 1gb RAM, but Aiko 3 full loads within about 5 seconds for me. 10 if I'm running a lot of background stuff (antivirus, etc.)

Coming from the game design world I know that the 'more polys, more realism' DAZ is trying to make all of us believe is far from the truth. I've worked with amazing realistic 3d models that were between 5000-8000 polys and 'posed' and animated much better and much more realistic then any of the high poly daz models. All that high polys are good for is charching a higher price. I'm only using low poly figures for Poser, but I'm not looking for realism in Poser at all,if I want realism, there are much better choices around then DAZ or Poser models.

If I recall the history right. P4 didnt smooth, or didnt smooth as well as P5,6,7.
the only way to get smoother more "real" was to raise the poly count.

in addition it allowed for smoother morphs and previews.

even thought p5,6,7 has been out for years many merchants are still not optimizing their products for these versions. Some because they want to maintain (or did want to maintain) P4 compatibility to keep from loosing some portion of the market. Others keep doing what they have always done and dont realize the potential of the new versions.

The advantage of having a well designed mid resolution figure with good polygon topology that can be light for any system and can look high resolution when rendered on smooth was totally ignored!!!

f you visit CG talk there are so many threads about mesh topology and which is the best setup... Poser figure creators (except Anton) have ignored all that technology!

I guess it is easier to design an always heavy figure in case you need it to be smooth on a render (in which you won't use the smooth option of course)

It is sad that any new model is an old with smooth pressed 2-3 times in all the mesh! Not only on the parts needed! (classic example miki eyeballs are the same resolution as a posette!!!)

And also people don't understand that a second on every time they load a figure is a great deal if you think how many times you load a poser figure! imagine if you saved 2-3 seconds every time, how many days-weeks of your life you would have saved (and if the mesh was well designed on the joints you would't have bending problems also)

Why we must use a huge mesh just in case we need to make one detailed morph???

Why not using the great displacement ability to create details on figures in that case???

Quote - The advantage of having a well designed mid resolution figure with good polygon topology that can be light for any system and can look high resolution when rendered on smooth was totally ignored!!!

f you visit CG talk there are so many threads about mesh topology and which is the best setup... Poser figure creators (except Anton) have ignored all that technology!

I guess it is easier to design an always heavy figure in case you need it to be smooth on a render (in which you won't use the smooth option of course)

It is sad that any new model is an old with smooth pressed 2-3 times in all the mesh! Not only on the parts needed! (classic example miki eyeballs are the same resolution as a posette!!!)

And also people don't understand that a second on every time they load a figure is a great deal if you think how many times you load a poser figure! imagine if you saved 2-3 seconds every time, how many days-weeks of your life you would have saved (and if the mesh was well designed on the joints you would't have bending problems also)

Why we must use a huge mesh just in case we need to make one detailed morph???

Why not using the great displacement ability to create details on figures in that case???

Amen, Ken Yehi Ratzoon!  (Amen, May His Will Be Done!)

if by "popular", one means "why do they sell so well?" the answers are: 1. peer pressure 2. advertising they also put alotta work into their models, but just making an excellent 3D-model is no guarantee it'll sell.

I also think it's gotten so stupid too. Their have clothes with such high count,esp textures have gotten way out of hand. Lets not even talk about hair. :O) V4 is less than V3 and SP3 with all their morphs added. It's a wonder we can get a render without blowing out our PC's.:O)

What is the name of the P6,P7 meshes and there polycount ?

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

Sorry if I disagree, but displacement is for gaming.

Firefly as it is implemented in Poser is a dud and I avoid it whenever I can.
Even in full production mode the Poser 4 renderer will easily deliver a sharper, more crisp render.
And I'd absolutely hate having to work with a nondistinct blob in my preview window which only transforms into a human being AFTER it is rendered. It irritates me to no end.
Same when the lights look completely different in the finished render than they look in the preview.

We can agree that Miki, Miki 2, Jessi, James and the G2 series are WAY overweight. That's why I made my own LoRez versions of MIKI and Sydney.
I also often use M3RR or V3RR instead of  standard V3 and M3. V2LO and M2LO are also very fine figures.

But a realistic mesh needs bodydetail. Actually sculpted muscles, knees, shoulders, ribs and enough polygons in the face to render smoothly even without artifcial polygon smoothing.

So for clothed figures I use M3RR and V3RR.
For unclothed I use a combination of Unimesh body (Laura, V3, SP3) with a V3RR head.
For characters that need full head detail like wrinkles and folds (Old people, creatures), I use full rez M3 and V3.

Sorry, but Posette and Dork just don't cut it for front row use any more.
Their bodys are fine (Especially Dorks where the mesh nicely flows around each muscle group), but they both need proper kneecaps and a few more polygons in their faces especially around their eyes.
You can do what you want with Posette and Dork, but their funky blocky eyes and mouths will always give them away unless that problem is solved.

As I said, I'm all for light, efficient meshes, but faking  bodydetail with a displacement map is not the way to go for Poser still renders.
It's good for gaming and maybe to add detail to inanimate background objects, but the human body should be properly modelled with all the necessary detail.
Not only because a displacement map can not properly interact with different lights, but because as an artist I am just not inspired by an undetailed bag of polygons.
I must suspense disbelief, and I can only do that if a mesh I'm looking at in the preview window has all the proper features of a human being.
Same reason why I never use "box" or "fast" tracking.

Otherwise I could just use woody with a killer displacement map and be done with it.

V3 and M3 and all the other Unimesh are a product of the time when DAZ did only support P4, so polygon wise they are a bit on the high side.
But due to their injection technology they work fine on the majority of todays computers.
Abandoning injection technology was the most asinine thing DAZ could have done.
The problem never was injection itself but the way DAZ implemented it with a gazillion of folders and readscripts, and those vocal users who couldn't be bothered to read a manual.

V4 looses any eficiency she might have gained over V3 with her (slightly) lower mesh weight due to the fact that she permanently has to carry 69 magnets and all her morphs around in her cr2.

To make this possible, DAZ HAD to reduce the absolute numbers of morphs.
So to all you people wailng and gnashing your teeth that DAZ didn't include your favorite V3 body or headmorph:
It's not that DAZ wants to make you to pay extra for them (Ok, maybe they do. Lol), it's just that 99% of todays computers simply can't handle a V4 sized mesh with all possible morphs permanently present.
You can thank all of the "Injection is crap" folks for it.

Morph injection IS the only way to give meshes above the size of 20.000 polygons a reasonable amount of morphs without your computer slowing down to a crawl.

Back to the original point:
DAZ meshes are popular because the are GOOD.
Plain and simple.

Not that DAZ meshes can't stand improvements.
There is a LOT wrong with V3, and after a lot of attempts I completely gave up hope to turn V4 into a reasonable representation of a human being.

But they are still better than the rest.

You would be surprised how few people care to even think about displacement maps or mesh density. I can only think of a few items I own that came using displacent 66,000 is a very good number for quick success and high output realtime. No "smoothing" required. And smoothing comes at a cost, timewise. Most just don't have the time to set up a lot of nodes or py scripts. It's easier and more practical to change apps. This frees you from poser's boning, memory and import/export issues. Displacement mapping is a trip but,, a pain too. Especially figuring how big everything will be when actually displaced rendered. Animators scream for low poly. Makes sense. Still renders can use high poly. Also makes sense. But,,, 110,000 for Miki? That's nuts. Or, 160,000 for a hair prop here in MP. There are limits. At least with 2 gigs of ram.

Quote - Why we must use a huge mesh just in case we need to make one detailed morph???

Why not using the great displacement ability to create details on figures in that case???

Probably to appeal to an average user and the widest market. There's probably more people with faster computers then those whom will bother to learn to make their own morphs or use displacement maps. And those whom learn this, I think usually go beyond poser, and come back to it mainly because there are others whom are interested in buying their meshes, morphs props etc... Personally, I often feel that I have to 'dimbify' things in order to make them work with poser characters, where if I were doing things in Max or other higher end app, I'd use a different approach.

Right now, creating a product, I'm contemplating... if I make certain details with displacement maps (which technically I believe is the best way for what I'm trying to accomplish), how many people will actually use the displacement map?????

"Right now, creating a product, I'm contemplating... if I make certain details with displacement maps (which technically I believe is the best way for what I'm trying to accomplish), how many people will actually use the displacement map?????" I'd love to see more merchants show what is possible. Hard to say how many will use it. " More and more" is a better angle..;)

Very good post JoePublic, I agree with just about everything you said except for "after a lot of attempts I completely gave up hope to turn V4 into a reasonable representation of a human being."  I honestly don't have a clue why some people don't like V4, but to each his or her own.

Still, it was great to hear someone around here say " You can thank all of the "Injection is crap" folks for it." and " DAZ meshes are popular because the are GOOD. Plain and simple.". Thanks.  :)

SnowS

Does smoothing increase the rendertime? Probably, if you smooth everything. I try to switch smoothing off on everything which doesn't need it - but I really like to have the option. I don't think that the Firefly renderer is crap or something - just more complicated and with lousy preferences. But since a lot of people still use the P4 renderer, models still need to be high-poly, I suppose.

The picture is from wikipedia. How would you do such a face without displacement?

I use the DAZ figures because I like the way that they look.  And I strongly suspect that's the majority answer to the OP's question.

You can talk about polycounts, morphs, etc. all day long -- but what sells V4 to most users is the way that V4 can look in a render.  Regardless of the technical aspects of how she came to look that way.

Advertising?  I couldn't care less.  Peer pressure?  I couldn't care less about that, either.

I like the way that V4 looks in a render -- as I like the way that the other DAZ figures look in a render.  So that's why I primarily use V4, V3, SP, M3, Laura, et al.  The entire DAZ family.  So if I want to use those figures......and I do......then I have to use supporting hardware / software that can handle them.

I'd be happy to use other figures, too.  And I do so -- on occasion.  If someone else comes up with a figure which out-V4's V4, then I'll probably use that figure.  But until such a hypothetical new figure hits the market -- which hasn't happened yet -- I'll stick with my DAZ-figure loyalty.

Outside of a vocal few, I suspect that I am in the majority with these opinions.  "DAZ didn't make it" has never been a good reason to decide to use a given figure.  Although to some: "DAZ didn't make it" seems to be the #1 reason for going with alternative figures.

But for me: it's all simply a matter of asthetics.  And there's your answer to V4's popularity.  It's got absolutely nothing to do with polycounts: be they high polycounts, or be they low polycounts.  Or even polycounts somewhere in the middle.

It's not a great mystery at its base.  But to each their own on matters of taste.

The only time when I object is when others attempt to enforce their personal taste onto me.  Their taste isn't mine.  Nor does the taste of the most vocal tend to reflect the taste of the vast majority of the market.  And that's why the market looks the way that it does.  Because it's what most people buy.

Many thanks, SnowSultan.

I dislike V4 because her "HighTech" cr2 always get's in the way of custom morph creation.

I used magnets with her, made face and full bodymorphs in Z-Brush and Wings, used the P7 MorphBrush, used python scripts with her, tried to mirror her morphs, and she always, ALWAYS caused a lot more problems than any of the "old" Unimeshes did.

Of course the average user won't have or notice all of these problems, but dare to do something other with her than using her default morphs, and you're in a world of hurt.

Besides, despite all her high tech her joints are still cr..not perfect.
Sorry, the shoulders are (finally!) ok (Apart from the too high armfold), but the thighs and hip joints are still horrible.

She lost her buttocks groups, but instead got 9 (NINE!) additional bodyparts in her head.

You still have to extensively postwork her, OR make a full set of correction morphs with the P7 MorphBrush.
(Which won't work in D|S, btw)

But if one already has to make correction morphs for her, why not use V3 in the first place and avoid all the other problems ?

So sorry, but I think V4's concept of using tons of magnets to smooth the joints has already become obsolete by the introduction of the P7 morph brush.

Future meshes will have a simple, but efficient rig, and compensate any shortcomings with correction morphs that are loaded before the joint data is read.

Other points:
She lost bodydetail compared to V3, even though her body has a higher polycount. (Real people do have kneecaps)
Her mapping might be state of the art, but you now need expensive 3D texturing software to texture her without having a ton of seams all over her body.

No injection morphs and 69 magnets make her a lot slower on my machine than V3.

The preset ERC dials and "morphforms" get on my nerves.
I can dial an expression and pose or scale a mesh just fine without DAZ constantly holding my hand.

Expression and pose sets are much more versaitle and practical for new users than "smile" or "bend forward" dials that clutter up the cr2.
Using these dials is like learning to ride a bike using training wheels that are permanently attached.
They might be usefull for some time, but after a while they just get in the way.

I could go on, like, "What were they thinking when they created V4's eyes ?", or, "Why do I need another mesh that has Aiko Realistics' bodyshape ?", but I'll give it a rest now.

:biggrin:

Quote - I'd love to see more merchants show what is possible. Hard to say how many will use it. " More and more" is a better angle..;)

I was discussing it with my partner in 3D, if we include all we want to do with the models, I'll have to include a video tutorial on how to use it... (for average and newbie users)  being that readme's don't seem to get read a lot, and some things are very hard to explain (at least for me) without pictures and showing how to do it.

I was thinking about creating some key poses and, in addition to JCM morphs to correct pokethroughs, adding a displacement map or two to emphasize clothes wrinkles in certain poses.   

LOL... PRODUCT BONUS! a Video tutorial showing how to put wrinkled undies back on V3... (sorry, I'm cracking myself up!)

Welp, I use the low poly figures all the time in animations, especially, Don & Judy. They can talk and walk just as well as M3/V3 can. The high poly count is brutal on my system. I haven't abandoned them but I am not using M3/V3 a whole lot lately. I don't do still art anymore so the high poly figures are of no use to me.

All the Daz female figures are starting to look the same to me, and, how many clone Vickie's do I really need? The new ones look like toons, a turn off for me even though I do animations.

Just wanted to add:

Don't get me wrong: V4 is not "bad".
And for users who think like Xenophonz, she will be perfect.
(Or at least pretty close.)

Like many people will be perfectly happy with Vista, as long as they can play with AERO.
:tongue1:

But when I switched to XP the first thing I did was to disable the stupid Playscool interface because total control and performance are my main priorities.

That's why I've given up on V4.

But I don't dispute that for the majority she'll be a big improvement.
I just wished that the #1 Poser mesh would develop into a different direction.

I'm gonna add:

POLY COUNT DOES MATTER.

The higher the count, the longer it takes to render out the video.

And, 4000x4000 texture sizes are a big pain in the rear for animators unless they have a Star Trek computer to render them out on it can take days, weeks & months to do a few clips of animation in one sitting.

I've just about given up on any figure that is set on high, including the textures.

All of these are good reasons for both sides of the arguement, but they ignore the real reason I think people embrace DAZ's figures... Support. If DAZ puts out a figure there is no doubt it's going to be very well supported. It's going to have a variety of characters, textures, clothing and hairstyles suitable for a variety of  genres. Of all the various marketplaces for Poser consumables I think people have the most faith in DAZ's quality control... and if something unacceptable slips through, there's always that 30 day refund policy. 

I would love to be able to use other figures more, but the support is just not there. So unless you do your own texturing, model your own clothes...

Quote - Just wanted to add:

Don't get me wrong: V4 is not "bad".
And for users who think like Xenophonz, she will be perfect.
(Or at least pretty close.)

Yes, perfection is the goal here.

Some seek it in one way, while others seek it in another way.

Everyone has their own definition of "perfect" in matters related to 3D.  I'll stick with mine.

Quote - Like many people will be perfectly happy with Vista, as long as they can play with AERO.
:tongue1:

What's AERO?

There's a tendency on the part of some to dismiss asthetics as being for the "hoi-polloi" -- i.e. - nothing but eye candy for the great unwashed.  But others view asthetics as being the primary reason for the very existence of 3D.  The technical aspects are merely a means to an end.  Much like mechanic's tools under the hood of a Lamborghini: while the tools are very, very important -- they aren't as important as the car.

Quote - But when I switched to XP the first thing I did was to disable the stupid Playscool interface because total control and performance are my main priorities.

It's one of my main priorities, too.

Quote - That's why I've given up on V4.

That's why I'm sticking with V4.

Quote - But I don't dispute that for the majority she'll be a big improvement.
I just wished that the #1 Poser mesh would develop into a different direction.

Apply for a position on the design team at DAZ.

You can talk about polycounts, morphs, etc. all day long -- but what sells V4 to most users is the way that V4 can look in a render.  Regardless of the technical aspects of how she came to look that way.

To me they all look the same..... V3 looks like V2, V4 looks like V3 and so on. I'm pretty tired with the same old DAZ look, they sure aren't very creative when it comes to looks and they're not too good at being innovative either. CP at least is releasing some very original figures, that just aren't clones or look-a- likes of their predesecors.

I'm just glad that of most figures some lower poly version is available and that textures can be scaled down, so I can escape merchants' obsession with high res textures and DAZ's obsession with high poly figures.

shrug

And that's all a matter of personal taste.  You can't "win" an argument over personal taste -- there's no right, and there's no wrong in neutral territory.  It can become like arguing over which is better: vanilla ice cream, or chocolate?  The answer will vary from person to person.  Some might even prefer to mix the two...........

It's a good thing that so many different models are out there nowadays.  The more, the merrier IMO.

I buy stuff at CP, too.

Left side V4 straight out of the box.
Right side V3 demonstrating how joints can look using the latest technology
No postwork whatsoever.

And some just follow the latest hype because they hope that "being on the edge of technology" elevates them over the plebs. 

I rather have a VW  with Lamborghini tech under the hood, than a Lamborghini body on top of a VW drivetrain.

Technology by itself isn't pretty. Aesthetics are just the icing on the cake, and I tolerate them only as long as they don't get in the way of performance.

The concept of V4 is inherently flawed, at least if you want to raise the standards of realism in Poser.

The problem is that DAZ now rather wants to make as much money as possible, instead of making the best product possible.

Understandable for a profit driven company, but sad in the long run for the Poser community, because wherever DAZ goes, the rest will follow.

OTOH, this new technology (i.e. the P7 morphbrush), makes it easier than ever for independent merchants to create meshes, so I'd say we live in "interresting times".

Because after a while even the hoi polloi will notice that looks aren't everything.

This looking displacement like something too difficult to use reminds me the "Transparent Victoria Brow thing" and generaly the fear people had to use transparency in the start... however when everyone understood how it works the possibilities became infinite!

Same goes for displacement it is a new powerfull tool full of potential , yes it isn't perfect yes it isn't so user friendly at the moment but anyone saying it is worthless is propably exagerating,,,

Of course when I talk about displacement and mesh topology I mean that for exaple we can have a medium resolution mesh that can have muscle morphs and proper bones structure and then use displacement for extreme details!

I'm afraid we will see figures that will use morphs for veins and beauty marks instead of displacement in the future!

In any case of rendering there is a medium solution for everything! realism when needed and light resources for everyday use! :biggrin:

If someone wants perfection than he will try to get the best of the tools that has and if ignores  displacement than he misses a great advantage on that try...

"Of course when I talk about displacement and mesh topology I mean that for exaple we can have a medium resolution mesh that can have muscle morphs and proper bones structure and then use displacement for extreme details!"

Just what I'm saying !  :thumbupboth:

I'm not COMPLETELY against displacement.
Veins and bantha's extremely wrinkly old woman are good examples where actual mesh detail would be way too impractical.
I just don't want to see it used as a band-aid to cover bad modelling.

And let me add a comparion shoot between NEA and V4 just to prove that high polygon count isn't everything.

OT, but if you buy a Lambo, you're getting a VW.   And, to be fair to VW, the fact that they are running the show nowadays does explain why you're more likely to see a Lamborghini on the road and less likely to see one stuck at the kerb with its own rapidly ascending micro-climate.

Quote - And some just follow the latest hype because they hope that "being on the edge of technology" elevates them over the plebs. 

True.....but a totally irrelevent point in this discussion.  There's no one here like that.  Except, perhaps, for a few anti-DAZ types.

To each their own -- that's my personal philosophy when it comes to 3D mesh's.

Quote - I rather have a VW  with Lamborghini tech under the hood, than a Lamborghini body on top of a VW drivetrain.

And I'd rather have a Lamborghini with a Lamborghini engine.  Best all around.

Quote - Technology by itself isn't pretty. Aesthetics are just the icing on the cake, and I tolerate them only as long as they don't get in the way of performance.

Try impressing people by assuring them that your rusty old VW has a Lamborghini engine under the hood.  Outside of a few enthusiats, you'd be selling the point to very limited market......even if it was true.

Most ladies would rather be picked up for a date in the Lamborghini on the outside.

Without the aesthetics, art is without meaning.  Sort of like technically-sound computer-produced "music" -- which comes across as nothing but discordant noise to the human ear.

Quote - The concept of V4 is inherently flawed, at least if you want to raise the standards of realism in Poser.

That's arguable.  I've seen some great results with V4.  Not just toonish results.

Once again -- it's that matter of the personal taste thing.  Some people like 'toons.  I don't -- but I don't have anything against those who do.

Quote - The problem is that DAZ now rather wants to make as much money as possible, instead of making the best product possible.

Understandable for a profit driven company, but sad in the long run for the Poser community, because wherever DAZ goes, the rest will follow.

Now here we are dealing with assigning personal motives to people, as opposed to stating the facts of the case.  I don't claim to be a mind-reader.  But I'm willing to give the good folks at DAZ (and e-frontier, etc., etc.) the benefit of the doubt as to their motivations for making the figures that they do.  And I am willing to grant them their good motives -- until such time as the matter is proven to be otherwise.  Not just assumed for the negative: with no basis in acutal fact.

BTW -- profit isn't an evil motivation, anyway.  Make a bad enough product, and the customers will ultimately go elsewhere.  Any businessman worth his salt understands this basic point.

Apparently, DAZ is doing OK, quality-wise.  They are attracting a lot of customers.  More and more of them all of the time, in fact.

Quote -
OTOH, this new technology (i.e. the P7 morphbrush), makes it easier than ever for independent merchants to create meshes, so I'd say we live in "interresting times".

No arguments on that score.

Quote - Because after a while even the hoi polloi will notice that looks aren't everything.

Oh, really?  Since when?

The biggest stars in Hollywood aren't plain.  Always has been the way, always will be the way.

You do make many good technical points about V4 JoePublic and I can agree with most of them as well. When I said that I don't understand why people don't like V4, I meant not liking her purely on looks. She's the best-looking Vicki out of the box by far, having nowhere near the football player physique that V3 does. I'm not seeing the toon look in her face that others are, especially once a texture is applied. Shrink the eyes down slightly and that problem ought to go away.

Anyway, an interesting discussion to be sure.  :)

SnowS

Thanks again SnowSultan.

I completely agree about V3's default shape being, let's say, not very flattering.
That's why I often work with a modified (ie. grown up) Laura instead. (See pic)
She's much easier to shape into a realistic woman and has better default joints than V3.

I also agree that not liking V4 just because of her looks  is a bit short sighted.
But not everybody can or wants to completely change a mesh'  shape, so just like in real life, the first impression is very important.

I actually do like V4's bodySHAPE, but I can't bring myself to ignore her lack of proper kneecaps.
They just scream "BarbieDoll" to me.
I also find it harder to morph into a more average shape.
Harder than giving V3 a "sexy" shape in comparison.

But then again, I have no problem to shape V3 or SP3 or Laura in any shape I want, so V4's default shape isn't that important to me.

I am an utter ignoramous concerning technical issues but I have always wondered Poser figures could not be set up for posing and test renders with a low-res figure proxy having the mesh/texture/morph information transfered to high res for the final render. I have wonder why if mesh is to be high res it would not be possible to replace some of the gross sculpting, bend fixing and gravity effects morphs with body handles?

JoePublic, why is it that I find Vicky Preteen with breasts and Laura with breasts more realistic as adult women then V2 and V3 respectively?

Miki has a great body shape but the mesh is intractable and god only knows why the mesh was subdivided globally rather than adaptivly! Amorphium in the 1990s was able to subdivide with density controled by gray mask... you could probly sculpt a damn good face on the back of Miki's head! Maybe on the back of one of her eyeballs!

This week I have been having this fantasy as I walk around and see that most womens'  legs are far shorter than their torsos of someone setting up a Poser Realism site for people interested in things like realistic proportions and ordinary looking people work with Poser. I don't have the means or no how to set it up myself but man it sure would be interesting to have a venue for people interested in Poser realism as well as fantasy.

There are so many errors on V3/V4 (and prolly the other figures too) that it would make more sense to start building a figure from scrap than to fix them.

High polycount and displacement are some workaround for lacking math skills.
Any shape can be easily described via Euler operators and FFT. To give possibility to create morphs it's a good way to add modifications by vectors and FFT to the basic shape.

But if somebody wants to model something then the most convenient way is to add more and more polygons. If someone wants to make slight modifications on some existing model he use a displacement map or plays around with the vertices.That's fine for anything that's not high end or where speed is not a critical factor.
High poly meshes are easy to modify if the aspired precision doesn't really matter.

Further does high technology often require high skills in this or that area and the majority isn't interested in leading edge CAD/CAM or scientific applications. Ergo, the majority is usually better served with low end technology to reach their goals.

There are military, industrial and consumer standards for some reason. While consumers in many cases can not get mil standards, it's their choice to take industry standard or not.
They do not and some of the most obvious results are poor quality computers and poor quality cars. If industry decides to go the way of intentional built in weak spots to get an better estimable MTBF (and of course higher profit) and customer buy such a product, than it tells already much about these customers.
It's nothing bad about low end tech. The purpose is a different.
If I want a cube, then it's most of time ok to use vertices and polys. If I want a plain and simple sphere and high precision than I have to use a mathematical description or literally billions of vertices just to kill any 3D app on whatever high end workstation or visualisation system with TB's of RAM. For a crappy sphere...

Sadly most biological stuff makes good use or radii. But luckily math solves this problem without many knots. err.. Instead of placing 1000 vertices to describe something spherical there's just 1 knot and some math along with it. 1 more knot for the next sphere and some math again to describe it's shape and how it interacts with the 1st sphere.
Same way to go with 2D shapes.

However, with more powerful computers and the same lazy/desinterested people the high poly meshes will be in use for plenty years.

I still can't figure out why people complain about texture size. Take it into your image editing program and reduce the size. SIMPLE. Coldrake

"The problem is that DAZ now rather wants to make as much money as possible, instead of making the best product possible."

I, 100 percent, agree with that.

Oh & I do reduce my texture sizes.

4000x4000 skin tex, set on max, is insane, in my opinion.

I reduce mine to at least 2000x2000 on low. Not high. For animations.

A big prove on the last one is V4 uvs!
It is the most non user friendly and non logical at all I've seen tha last years! A step back!

However everyone needs to buy new maps to use the new full of seams V4...

I never liked V3 but her UVS was a big step forward, when I show Apollo I thought the same thing but V4 is just... weird! What where they thinking?

Anyway... I want to be clear that I'm not anti-DAZ... it is that I use poser for so many years and the evolution on figure creation is really slow ( big exception Apollo to prove the rule...)

It is not DAZ fault that all other poser creators try to "think like DAZ" so as to make profit too...

Also it is sad that the creator of Poser haven't made not even one step forward when it comes to new things on character files... except the pdm I haven't seen anything else new from P4-7... Till we have something new and till someone risks to try something outside the DAZ formula than DAZ will be the best content creator because that's their job: to shell and not move the poser evolution... If they want to make evolution this will be done on D/S I guess...

It's odd to me how the use of certain meshes becomes evidence of negative personal motivations in the minds of some.  "Lazy", et al, if one chooses to do things in a certain way.  Very odd.

And I'm still impressed by the mind-reading talents on display.  Either that -- or else they've got some sort of an inside handle on the inner thoughts & feelings of the folks over at DAZ.

I wonder how many board meetings they attended, and how many private office discussions they were privy to?  They must have been there -- in order to know what they assert that they know.

Attached Link: http://www.digital-imagination.biz/freebies/dph_posettev3.zip

There are so many errors on V3/V4 (and prolly the other figures too) that it would make more sense to start building a figure from scrap than to fix them.
For your information, according to DAZ, V4 was build from scrap, that's why she isn't compatible with the unimesh figures. Problem with DAZ is lack of innovation.... they build a figure from scrap and arrive at the what they've created before.

*The problem is that DAZ now rather wants to make as much money as possible, instead of making the best product possible.
*It sure show lately doesn't it? Higher prices, lower quality. Misleading advetisments, promo images and promotion texts. But there seems to be a different change at DAz also.... while other stores are full of new releases, we see a drop in new items at DAZ. We see sale after sale at DAZ of old products, Bryce is on sale about every other week now, but hardly any new releases and most of the items released aren't worth the price at all. It also seems that many merchants (and users) are still very hesitant to create items for V4 or buy V4.

*V4 has no problems whatsoever in looking realistic -- or at least as realistic-looking as Poser figures get.  Even with clothes on her.
*I wouldn't call that V4 in that image realistic at all, she looks more like a stiff dressing doll you see in store windows, who can't express herself. She looks very unnatural and for sure not realistic in the image.

P4 Meshes are Possetta,Dork

P5 Meshes are Judy,Don

P6 Meshes are ?

P7 Meshes are ?

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

P6 Meshes are James & Jessi.

P7 Meshes are Simon & Sidney (if I recall correctly).

P6 Jessie and James (hoho - wonder who thought that one up?)
P7 Sydney and Simon.

The kids in both P6 and P7 are Kate and Ben.

Thanks for the names

P6 Jessie Polycount is ?

P7 Sydney Polycount is ?

They seem to render just as nice as DAZ meshes.

what I can tell from market place renders.

But there is little to none 3rd party stuff for them.

Is it a lot harder to make stuff for Sydney ?

Is it a lot easier to make stuff for Vicky ?

Why is the ratio 1000 to 1 ?

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com

I'm not sure about the polycounts, but they sure render as nice (the new figures like Miki even better) as DAZ characters.

It's not harder to make stuff for them, it's just that merchants always claimed users are biased towards DAZ figures, so no point in making stuff for poser figures. But many people do use the original poser figures and merchants are supporting them more and more now. For example,  Dork/Possete/Don/Judy/James/Jessi have far more tv appearances then the any of the DAZ figures ever had.

Some of the new poser figures are gaining support, not in the magnitude of vicky, but they're catching on. DAZ's V4 seems to be lacking support by merchants now also, so thinks may be changing.

Thou it would be kool to have ya meshes on TV.

Lightwave is used for StarTrek,BattleStar Galatia.

Still not considered a real high end app thou.

LW Layout is killer thou can fit a solar system in it.

Be nice if Poser had some of that work space ;)

LW Modeler not my fav thou.

DAZ used LW for a long time think they went to Modo.

At one time LW Morphs where pretty original now all the apps have them.

Well why don't merchant make a Version for all the characters ?

Seems like it would increase sells, could not decrease sells.

Nothing to lose there.

I would not want V4 to lose support,I know the effort that went in to creating V4 + all the extras, but wouldn't mind a lower polycount mesh getting as much support thou.

Mainly I am just trying to under stand why what is in the realm of Poser.

I think one thing DAZ has is they where the first to get to the show.

It's my understanding at one time there where no meshes to match DAZ characters.

I am starting to think that is the magic of DAZ.

RorrKonn
http://www.Atomic-3D.com