*OK -- now we're getting somewhere.  We've now shown that this "problem" with certain figures -- at least on the part of some -- isn't truly a matter of technical issues.  Instead, at its base it's a matter of egos and personal disdain for others whom one regards as one's inferiors.
*I guess you even seriously believe that..... When it comes to ego, did you ever take the time to read DAZ's V4's sales pitch? Anyway, if it isn't a matter of technical issues, I wonder why we're not all still using  V1/M1 or even the Poser 3 figures?

@ aeilkema --

Some people still use those figures.  Or at least one or two people still use them.  I've seen a couple of threads in the past with people asking how they could get P3 figures to work in P6 or P7.  Why anyone would want to do that is beyond me.......but hey -- whatever floats your boat.

As for DAZ's V4 sales pitch representing a display of ego -- I suppose that any given company's advertising might qualify for the same sort of label.  But for some reason, I'd have a hard time visualizing an ad which went something like:

"Well, we really aren't very proud of our new Sickly Suzie figure.  She's got issues.  And you'll probably have to pay lots of money to send her to an analyst.  She needs help.  But still -- we wish that you'd buy a copy of her anyway.  At least do it because you feel sorry for us."

Somehow, I just can't see an ad from ANY company being worded in such a fashion.

But -- in any case -- I don't view that as being a problem for DAZ.  For one thing, I think that DAZ makes a good quality product.  And for another thing, I don't blame DAZ for trying to sell their product -- as if their sales pitches represented some sort of an evil conspiracy.  No more than I'd blame e frontier -- or a list of other 3D-oriented companies.  In fact, I support all of these companies.  They are the people and the corporate structures who make the existence of my very enjoyable hobby possible.

I don't see any percentage to be gained by me if I regularly attack them.  I'm not saying that they are above criticism.  They wouldn't say that.  But neither are they the greedy-minded only-out-for-a-buck (or quid -- take your choice) villians which they are sometimes portrayed as being.

I like my hobby.  So -- I am not going to treat the people who supply so much pleasure to me as if they were my personal enemies.

But neither are they the greedy-minded only-out-for-a-buck (or quid -- take your choice) villians which they are sometimes portrayed as being.

They're not? ;-P

I once saw an ad that listed the content and features of a product and indicated it's price. It was accompanied by images showing the product in use under standard conditions. This ad allowed me to evaluate the utility and value of the product . Sadly it did not reassure me as to the self-confidence and self esteem of the vendor or tell me a little story I could think about in moments of reflection. I was left to imagine the vendor was selling the product because they thought is was good enough to sell and I had to turn to other literature for narrative. These unfortunate ads probably would only exist so long as some people feel businesses should be as circumspect in communicating their perspective on a product as we all know consumers should be about or experience using them. Until those people shut up we will probably also continue to be subjected to such offenses as consumers spouting off unauthorized views concerning products they paid to use but are not licensed to discuss in what are ostensibly consumer forums. It makes one think that one should just not read such drivel as users discussing advantages and drawbacks of a product lest we become too exercised on the behalf of corporate interests! I just know I’m glad my ego is up to the task of seeing people impugne the perfection and infalibility of products I don’t profit from other than in knowing they are beyond reproach.

"I like my hobby.  So -- I am not going to treat the people who supply so much pleasure to me as if they were my personal enemies."

The problem is twofold:

First, DAZ has a lot more resources than anybody else in Poserdom.
While a single dedicated person CAN produce a quality mesh (see Apollo or Rikishi), seeing all these precious  resources wasted for "evil" instead of greater "good" is still very dissapointing.
V4 has 69 magnets embedded in her cr2 that massively slow her down and make customizing her mesh almost impossible.
These 69 magnets are (mostly) not there to improve her bending, but to spare content creators from the additional work of creating matching JSM's, thus increasing content output and thus profitability.
What sounds good in theory creates in daily use a mess. Unless you strictly restrain yourself at just using her default, DAZ made morphs and sticking closely to her default shape.

So yes, when "evil= selling more copys" and "good = more functionality", then I'm (now) against "evil" DAZ even though I think they made very good products with their "old" Unimesh series.

Second, DAZ has a defacto monopoly.
Not just the majority of for sale content, but also the majority of free items will all be geared towards V4.
There is hardly an option.
I don't have a problem converting clothes myself, but it still costs time.
And the majority of people would either have to ask someone else to convert stuff for them or use WW which is a nice product, but can give mixed results.
So even those few who do realize that there are things wrong with V4 will try to find workarounds instead of demanding a better product, just because there are no really viable alternatives.

The majority will just swallow DAZ sales pitch like they always did, thinking it's their computer or Posers fault when things don't work correctly. This is no hubris or elitism, but just a fact.
DAZ said two necks and buttock groups were good for us, and people bought V1.
DAZ said that JCM's and injection are a must have, and people bought V3.
Now DAZ says that injection is "ewww" and magnets are mandatory, and guess what people are doing ?, Yep, use V4.

So in some way it IS a bit of an evil conspirancy.
DAZ doesn't want people to think about other concepts.
The merchants who make money with V4 don't want people to think about other concepts.
And even many of the consumers themselves don't want to think about other concepts, because using a DAZ product means having a steady stream of content availble to satisfy their "Poser addiction".

So sometimes it needs a "Unrenderable at any bucket-size" campaign to make a point.
People usually only listen in faerietales to little children that point their fingers at the emperor.

......I know, I have a perfect solution!!!!! ........... It should have no technical issues whatsoever, make everyone happy, and it should be free! Now, there, that settles it!.....

[.....rolling on the other side of the bed waking from a dream... gimie back the covers, it's cold tonight....  zzzzzz......]

....now where was I.... perfect, happy and freee...... with a pony, jaguar and a palm tree on my own private island.... and a cabana boy bringing me fresh drinks on demand...  

Hey Conniekat8

Was that the gavel or were you hitting the snooze button?

Quote - I once saw an ad that listed the content and features of a product and indicated it's price. It was accompanied by images showing the product in use under standard conditions. This ad allowed me to evaluate the utility and value of the product . Sadly it did not reassure me as to the self-confidence and self esteem of the vendor or tell me a little story I could think about in moments of reflection. I was left to imagine the vendor was selling the product because they thought is was good enough to sell and I had to turn to other literature for narrative. These unfortunate ads probably would only exist so long as some people feel businesses should be as circumspect in communicating their perspective on a product as we all know consumers should be about or experience using them. Until those people shut up we will probably also continue to be subjected to such offenses as consumers spouting off unauthorized views concerning products they paid to use but are not licensed to discuss in what are ostensibly consumer forums. It makes one think that one should just not read such drivel as users discussing advantages and drawbacks of a product lest we become too exercised on the behalf of corporate interests! I just know I’m glad my ego is up to the task of seeing people impugne the perfection and infalibility of products I don’t profit from other than in knowing they are beyond reproach.

 

OK -- you totally and completely mis-read what I had to say above.  Nowhere did I assert that those companies were above criticism.  And nowhere did I say that paying customers don't have a right to complain.  In fact, I seem to recall saying just the opposite.........

There's such a thing as legitimate customer dissatisfaction.  And there's such a thing as pure, unmitigated viciousness.

I sympathize with any person or groups of persons who choose to create figures/models/etc. in the support of this hobby.  I wish good success to them.  And I'd like to lend them some armor.

I've yet to see one, single figure or character creator of any note who hasn't been violently attacked in the forums.  And I get mightly tired of it.  Why would anyone want the job?  You can make more money painting houses -- and with less grief.  It must be a labor of love.

Quote - Hey Conniekat8

Was that the gavel or were you hitting the snooze button?

 

A little of both, I think.

This is one of those types of issues which can end up being argued into the ground.  I believe that the points to be made have all pretty much been made.  Others will have to decide for themselves what they think -- and then act accordingly.  As they choose to act.

From what I've seen, the majority are all voting with their wallets.  And most of them probably haven't even read this thread.  They are too busy doing what they enjoy doing to worry themselves with the fact that others condemn them for doing it.

I think that I need to go buy another V4 character package................

I've wanted to make a 3d female model since seeing Kelly LaBrock  in " Weird Science " LOL.  The lightning  rod is set up and now I'm connecting the Barbie doll to the USP port....

Cheers
Patorak

Something has gone hideously wrong!  Oh my God,  no!  It's my mother-in-law !

Do the job right, Patorak -- and you might have plenty of lightning for your power supply.........

I think the polarity  got reversed!  I gotta type on the run!  She has a battle axe!  HELP!

:lol:

Seriously though I can't agree on monopolies or conspiracies.  Daz/Zygote have been putting out good products since the P3 figures.  E-frontier has a good line as well.  The indies too.  Remember Dina?  As for poly counts,  I do think figures should come with a low poly and high poly.  Also,  there should be a bust for portrait work.  Not to mention multiple rigging and UVmappings.

Quote - Hey Conniekat8

Was that the gavel or were you hitting the snooze button?

My snooze button is permanently stuck on 'daydream'  ;)
I'm afraid I'll smack my finger with that gavel and wake myself up!

as for the polycount, how else could I justify getting a new computer?

ROFLOL!

I daresay somebody already mentioned this, but before dan split off daz from zygote (which continued as a premie supplier of medical models), zygote was the first group to produce somewhat realistic human models for inclusion as fractal designs or metacreations content (with poser 3). they were the first, and they were the best, at least until such modellers as anton and sixus became independent IMVHO. sorry for the interruption - now back to yer usual forum-wrangling :lol:

Quote - Seriously though I can't agree on monopolies or conspiracies.  Daz/Zygote have been putting out good products since the P3 figures.  E-frontier has a good line as well.  The indies too.  Remember Dina?

No, no, no......it's all E-E-E-E-E-VIIIIILLLLLL (play darkly dramatic TA-DAH! music here, accompainied by maniacal laughter)

But seriously, too -- IMO, the more figures in the Poserverse, the better.  I like variety.

Quote - As for poly counts,  I do think figures should come with a low poly and high poly.  Also,  there should be a bust for portrait work.  Not to mention multiple rigging and UVmappings.

 

That all sounds great to me, Patorak.  DAZ does things like this -- offering many figures in both high and low resolutions.  But of course, they've got sinister motives for doing so............and everybody knows that: because it is a fact.

Seriously, again:  I like your thinking on a bust model.  Frankly, that's something which has never occured to me.  Potentially very useful, too.

Quote - I daresay somebody already mentioned this, but before dan split off daz from zygote (which continued as a premiére supplier of medical models), zygote was the first group to produce somewhat realistic human models for inclusion as fractal designs or metacreations content (with poser 3). they were the first, and they were the best, at least until such modellers as anton and sixus became independent IMVHO. sorry for the interruption - now back to yer usual forum-wrangling :lol:

 

No interruption at all, Miss Nancy.  Some people might not be aware of those facts.  I appreciate hearing them.

As for forum-wrangling: I'm about to sign off for about the next 12 hours or so........whoever wants it can have the floor.  Filibuster, even.

After a point, this sort of argument begins to turn into a matter of repeating the same points over and over again in different & inventive ways.  By that time.......such a discussion goes from potentially useful over into a type of verbal mud-wrestling.  Entertaining, perhaps.  But getting less and less worthwhile along the way.  Degenerating into name-calling.  The law of diminishing returns in action.

Those who follow (as in 'understand'), follow.  And those who "lead" (as in 'lead' with their noses) have already successfully walked face-first into the door.  That's gotta hurt. :ohmy:

The texture of a model has nothing to do with the polycount. A low poly figure can have the same texture template as a high poly one, thus it can use the same texture. As long as you use texture map, you are bound with the resolution of that map. V3 and PosetteV3 could use the same material, so the texture would look the same even on extreme closeups. If you magnify too far, you will be able to see edges on the outline on Posette, when the scale becomes to large for her low poly mesh - but if you use smoothing, this will take a while.

In theory, high poly figures bend better, but this depends on the rig as well. More polys is also better for morphing. But Posette is already very versatile.

Quote - Quote- A tensor is of course much more than this, but not for Poser*. -End quote.*  Could you elaborate?  Thank you for the links

Sure... I forgot the derivative nodes in Poser (dU, dV, dPdU, dNdU, ...) anyways.
Tensors appear in so many fields from norm mathematics to continuum mechanics that it would be a book if I write about every use for them.
And with my english it won't be fun to read, besides that I won't ever write a book about anything.
Not even for an fellow soldier. :p

If you specify a little what you want to know I'll send you an IM.

---

A character with more bones sounds great.
It would help a lot in fixing the weird look that figures often get after doing rather normal posing with them.
Right now the only things that help after adjusting of the bones (and related settings) is to take the figure to a modeling app or to play around with this morph brush of Poser 7. The morph brush is great but it screws up the mesh somehow if used excessively.

For those who want a quick result (i.e. not days of importing and exporting and modeling) it's obviously not a very appealing procedure.

I think the popularity of certain figures comes from 1) how they look in renders 2) what add on items are available 3) the marketing.
The behaviour on posing is something that most probably don't care much about. Especially if they are not proficient in 3D and/or art. Direct competion to DAZ figures is difficult.
If there are many customization options it would help. Many clothes and character morphs for a new figures will help also. However, without really intensive and good marketing it won't make many users and merchants switch to this new figure.

Assuming that there would be a similar amount of pictures showing Apollo as there are pictures showing A3, and assuming further that Apollo would be a female figure, then probably more people would start to use this figure and even any new figure that the creator of Apollo, Anton, would create, will have a bigger user base.

At the time V2 became popular there was not really much to choose. Most merchants came
after that one figure. The P4/P5 standard figures are not crap. I remember that I liked the P4 figures better for their flexibility but used V2/M2 and later V3/M3 because there was just more add on stuff available.

I like it if I can load a figure, some environment and clothing, adjust a few things like pose and textures and then do a first render. The polycount is not important for me as long as I don't do "real time" animated stuff for PC.

---

Quote - I'm so releaved to have come into CG at an age when you don't need any math knowledge or degrees in geekology to get anything done,tools these days are focused around the artist who creates with them & fortunately we dont need to know the technical in's & out's of vector math to know what we're doing.

spoken as a highschool dropout who's worst subject was math :-)
Cheers
Stefan

I loved math for quite some years while a child, then later I almost hated it for the longwinded formulas needed to describe simple things like weather and after that I loved it again. A good relationship so to say...
It's not that I say everybody has to study mathematics by all means. But I admit that I'm a little biased if it comes to this topic. And I will defend my lovely little vectors with my life. :glare:

Poser offers a nice playground with the material room and most Poser artists don't use it at all, despite the fact that it is not as hard to use as the figure setup room.
There is no relation to high-poly figures or modeling nor will the small field of vector math enable one to describe the whole range of shapes in nature. The whole post was about what  vectors are. With keeping in mind that this a CG forum...

For artists it is not vital to know what app do to let some model or render appear on screen.
While I used/use Maya, Max, XSI myself I was never very happy about the fact that I have to read manuals to create an model that is more than a few cubes or spheres.
Poser was a great invention to ease the creation of CG art while avoiding the the need to model all needed stuff by oneself.

Manuals teaching the usage of some application are different from learning what different canvas types are good for or what kind of paint can be used for what look. The latter is less annoying for some reason while the manuals are more like geology and chemistry for an stonemason. g
The artistic stonemasons usually dont care much about how old the stone is that they work on or where that stone was plenty million years ago or what happened that there is a "stone" in the end.

As a sidenote: I'm not an artist anyways. For me it's nice to see good artwork, can spend many hours with this, but I rather see relations, numbers, physics and later the picture itself. Sometimes I don't even reach that point of seeing the picture and fail to get it's emotional meaning.Remembers me of the days I had to do handicraft work and pictures in school. OMG...

*as for the polycount, how else could I justify getting a new computer?
*For me it's the reason not to use the newer figures. That way I still get to use my old computer and finally use all the stuff I've purchased for all the figures I do have. It saves lot's of money having to buy a new wardrobe all over again. I've got so much stuff for the older figures (M1/M2 & V1/V2) that I will not need to purchase any new clothes for ages.

Besides, with most newly released figures, I still don't see the benefit of having them. V4 for example doesn't seem to add anything unto the exsisting figures at all, except for some more polys. Same goes for the G2 figures, they don't really seem to add anything to the exsisting ones, except for more polys.

The old guys will serve me well for many years to come and by sticking to them, I get my work done. I used to buy (and fall for) every new hype in the poser world and spent so much time playing with the new stuff, that I didn't get anything serious done at all. After going through a number of hypes and realizing that most of them add nothing substantial at all and most of the hypes were only collecting dust in my runtimes, I decided to not fall for the next hype coming. Instead I focussed on getting my work done. Not buying all the newest figures has not only saved me lot's of money, but also lot's of time.

By the time I'm ready for the G2 figures or V4 (if that time ever comes), all of here stuff will be sold at dump prices anyway and I get to save lot's of money. For now, good old M2 & V2 will do the job just as well and when it comes to multiple figure scenes, even much better then all of the newer releases.

My meshes bend better than your meshes. (They really do !) :biggrin:

---

QUOTE: "Right now the only things that help after adjusting of the bones (and related settings) is to take the figure to a modeling app or to play around with this morph brush of Poser 7. The morph brush is great but it screws up the mesh somehow if used excessively.

For those who want a quick result (i.e. not days of importing and exporting and modeling) it's obviously not a very appealing procedure. "

You obviously don't really know what you're talking about:
MorphBrush morphs load BEFORE the joint parameters so that they make the mesh directly manipulable.
This makes them completely unique compared to any other rigging method.
There is no need to export, and so far I neither used more than a few minutes to make them.
(A lot faster than having to do postwork)

Besides, noone says that you have to do morphbrush correction morphs over and over again.
Like V3's JCM morphs or V2's correction morphs they can be used over and over again over a whole range of poses.

You can make a standard set for the most common poses and then just distribute that set to everybody else who uses the same mesh.
While you can't create them in P4-P6, they still work in P4 to P6.

The degree of freedom you get with the morphbrush is absolutely unparalleled to ANY other Poser rigging method known so far.
You can split a joint over more bodyparts, use magnets to smooth the joint, or use extra bones, and you won't come even close.

They are basically a reversed weightmapping method.

Of course the better the actual joint parameters are, the less morphbrush work is required, that's why separate buttock groups, an extra waist group, and maybe even double jointed shoulders still are a good idea.

Shrugs,
To be honest, I couldn't care less what other people do with their meshes.
It's just a shame that we've been finally handed the most important Poser tool ever, the one tool that let's us finally thumb our noses at the CG-Talk folks, and so many here seem to be unable to understand it's importance.

But a few aren't and that's all what counts. :biggrin:

The word is spread.
You have to decide for yorself if you join the dance.

I was being pissy. Sorry. I just have seen what looks like people being attacked for even looking analytically -not critically- at DAZ figures... The thread concerning head and limb proportions turned into a fire storm. I just don't want shut down legitimate areas of discussion... Does V3 have a tiny head? Are certain large players pushing the market to overly high res mesh too quickly for some members of the community? Is it possible for alternative figures to exist as anything other than freebies? I used to come here and learn alot but now my DIY inquires are met with store links so I come by just to see what is up. I just don't grasp what sent this thread into the hot zone. I feel I see a lot of  "floging a dead horse" and "you don't have the professional benefides to have an opinion" that leads to arguments... If you feel you just cant ignore a thread you think is a bozo thread I think its possible to say "I think you are being silly" somehow with out it getting as pissy as I just was!

Then their are people like Connie who seem to cool things down just by being there and not taking it too seriously.

Quote - You obviously don't really know what you're talking about:
MorphBrush morphs load BEFORE the joint parameters so that they make the mesh directly manipulable.
This makes them completely unique compared to any other rigging method.
There is no need to export, and so far I neither used more than a few minutes to make them.
(A lot faster than having to do postwork)

Besides, noone says that you have to do morphbrush correction morphs over and over again.
Like V3's JCM morphs or V2's correction morphs they can be used over and over again over a whole range of poses.

Oh well... It would have been better to use the biggest font size for the word excessively and put its definition right after it. Excessively means what it means and nothing else.
Further I can not see the need to point out the obvious. Maybe I start with the fact that the computer must be turned on before the OS can load and after this is done I can start Poser at some point. But this is obvious...
Just as it obvious that joint params can not be loaded before the morph brush data to get this result.
I really have not the slightest idea what I'm talking about and thus I was stating clearly that modifications via morph brush are the same as other morphs. And as a logical conclusion of lacking knowledge and my aversion of morph brush I was saying that it's totally crap and that it should be fixed/patched out of the software.
Oh wait... Actually I wrote:

Quote - A character with more bones sounds great.
It would help a lot in fixing the weird look that figures often get after doing rather normal posing with them.
Right now the only things that help after adjusting of the bones (and related settings) is to take the figure to a modeling app or to play around with this morph brush of Poser 7. The morph brush is great but it screws up the mesh somehow if used excessively.

Let me explain this part for you:
"...modeling app or to play around with this morph brush of Poser 7. The morph brush is great but it screws up the mesh somehow if used excessively..."

I have loaded a figure and applied some pose to it.
The mesh bends and the result looks odd or unrealistic or even ugly.
Now I can export the odd looking parts and fix them in Shade or Maya and reimport them as morph target to Poser.
OR
I can use the morph brush of Poser 7 and fix these parts with it.
Then I don't have to do any export-import action, but often I keep a copy of the modifications in case I need something similar again. But that again is obvious.
...
Are you still with me? Shouldn't be to hard to grasp til yet, right?

Ok, now the screwed mesh part.
While I know that the morph tool does not replace a true modeling app nor does it have much in common with said apps, except that one can move single vertices, I like it a lot.Because I like it a lot I wrote that the morph brush is great.
No, I don't look down at Poser or the morph brush just because I have all the other oh so great and professional apps installed. - In case that was what you read out of that line.

All that stands there is that the morph brush tends to fuck up the mesh if used excessively.
There is absolutely nothing that one can get wrong.
It's the same as saying that Windows 2003 DCS R2 tends to crash if one starts many apps which require much resources and if this is done over a couple of days.
This says only that said Windows doesn't like it if you start said apps very often and this over some days. It does not say that this Windows is crap and it does not say that it is the right way to use this Windows.
Actually I like said Windows version (for SMP, RAM support and virtualization) and I can live with the fact that I have to restart the computers once a week or at least all 2 weeks.
The same way I like the morph brush and while knowing how to use it I have to look what are its limits before using it in the way it is thought to be used. Easy, heh?

My wording may be different as for me there's no emotional link to any of the named Software, but we basically say the same.

By the agressive tone of your reply seems that I hit a weak spot. Lol.

"Now I can export the odd looking parts and fix them in Shade or Maya and reimport them as morph target to Poser."

And I can do the same in Wings or ZBrush or MAX, so ?

The breakthrough is that you now can manipulate a LIVE (To put in in easy words: An already posed) Poser figure.
Before that, you just had to anticipate the distortion of the blend zones.
There was also a Python script around that lets you "unbend" limbs, but the results are definitely not even close.

Why do you think we never in all that years got ONE decent correction morph for V3's or M3's shoulders ?
If it's so easy to just import V3's object file into MAYA and correct the bends ?
Why didn't make a single vendor a set of fix morphs after the constant whining about V3's and M3's Spaghetti shoulders ?
Or the flat thighs ?

Even if you can now use the new morph channel that the custom brush creates, you still have to edit out the initial bending, because you can only work with an object file in Shade or Maya, not with a "live" Poser mesh.

See, wasn't that easy ?

So far the only people that try to downplay the morph brush's value are DAZ vendors or other people with a vested interest in V4's success over any other alternatives.
Which is no surprise, because these morphs won't work in D/S, which of course widens the gap between D/S and Poser even more.

I really wonder what V5 will be like: Either DAZ managed to add a similar functionality to D/S, or they the poor thing will crawl along with 140 magnets embedded in her cr2.

So yeah, I rather "play around", like you put it, with the morph brush than do my morphing in ZBrush or Wings or Max, because while I might not have an emotional link to any software, I DO feel indeed a greater emotional link to meshes that bend like a human being instead like a, well, Poser mesh.

Strange habit for a Poser user, I know.

But the best things were discovered by people just "playing around".

BTW, the only mesh i see constantly being messed up by the morphbrush is V4.
But that's not the morphbrush's fault, it's because V4's mesh and cr2 so far have messed EVERY other script or programm I used to make custom characters.

Quote - Then their are people like Connie who seem to cool things down just by being there and not taking it too seriously.

Aww shucks, I thought I was pouring oil into the fire, and I had more of a marshmallow melting on the BBQ effect.  
slumps over and pouts  Just can't win, can I?  Back to my private little daydreamy island...
Does that palm tree growing on top of my head make my bum look fat? [crosses eyes and looks up]
Oh, I forgot, you can't see my bum, it's hiding under the big judges robe, and it's very shapely and skinny! Honest!

*kitty gets excited of a thought of having a shapely skinny bum, turns around graciously whirling the judge's robe around and balancing the palmtree on her head... trips over the gavel and falls flat on her face!
What are you looking at???   I meant to do that! 
Picks up the gavel and a palmtree off the floor and storms off with her nose up in the air. 

someone should make a rendering out of that :P

Quote -
My meshes bend better than your meshes. (They really do !)

 

Staring at the dancing Rod Stweart looking guy pondering.... the suit in the picture is so dark, I can't see how the darn thing bends. 
I can't yell Rod Stewart has no clothes! That might be a good thing :)

Quote - But the best things were discovered by people just "playing around".

 
Does that mean that deep down inside you have a playful streak you don't dare to show us? Hmmmm? 

Quote - By the agressive tone of your reply seems that I hit a weak spot.

 
Just in case someone falls for this kind of taunt. This kind of inductive statements is one of the more common logical fallacies. People get aggrivated for a number of reasons, and none of them are very likely the reason that supports the argument the other side is trying to make.

Lol...
If there's an opportunity then my wording is always agressive to some degree. It always helped in the past.
There is no weak spot for I can freely admit that I don't know everything about this topic. I won't even say that I know much.

Yes, you can maybe use ZBrush or Wings, but since I'm not familiar with these I won't state it.
For Maya, Shade, Max or Blender, I can say with certainty that they can import OBJ. Out of these I mentioned Maya as it can not cause any misunderstanding.
Shade and Blender aren't that popular and Max get often overlooked or confused with (max)imum if it's not written 3D Studio Max. That's at least my experience.

But I see now what the words were that you disliked.
Playing around...

Playing around is not to be understood as an depreciation/devaluation.
I don't say that I do more than playing around. It's not mass production or something commercial nor highly artistic. For me it's mostly a way to kill time. 10 minutes here, 5 Minutes there.

Importing to a modeler is not to fix the bends but to create the difference between what was wrong and how it should be. There is no point that I can see in creating such an OBJ file before any pose is applied.
For example all the errors with the thighs/hip with spread legs. There is not much that could be fixed with an OBJ. If there's something at all...

The shoulders can not be fixed with an obj before a pose is applied because it would require to change the area that is affected by involved bones.
But I have to say that I never tried to fix this. If it looked odd it was part of the import/export action.

The errors with morph brush occured for me with A3 and V4.
What DAZ does or says is not really in my field of view. I visit their marketplace sometimes and that's it. The same with most other companies.

Maybe things will be worse with V5. I don't hope so but it's likely.
If there would be a new good figure it's clearly somtething to appreciate.
Single artists however would be easily be overcharged with such a task.
The figure alone can be done in reasonable time but all the add-on content to make users of DAZ figures change and the promotion to get this done fast will be the really hard parts.

There are already some people working on different own models but that leads to several different models and not one new figure and additional content for this new figure.
If it won't get abandoned long before it's done...

AFAIK here are 3 million members. Let's say 2 million... In the field of open source software that would be a good base to start an project. But that apparently don't work here.

Out of 2 million people there are for sure like 100 modelers and painters that can spend some time on some freeware project.
I have no idea why everybody models and paints on his own instead of looking for likeminded.
Yes, ocassionally one is looking for help with something but how often a team is formed?
I only see this with merchants doing productlines together over a longer period of time but not with free stuff.
Lately I've seen dphoadly (not sure about the spelling) with some work he was/is doing on the P4 female. He looked for reactions, ideas, interested people and there was not really much reaction. That is sad.

That attitude makes me more mad than a few peeps (DAZ) taking advantage of people who won't get deep into the matter of 3D.
Well, it is not my problem at all, but coming from open source it is something that I don't get grasp of.
Learning 3D apps was easier for me than learning all the ins and outs of different OS and languages. With other people I think it's similar.

Poser is a little like Visual Basic. Many C/Java/fortran/ASM-coders look down at it but VB is powerful and extremely easy to learn and use.
Of course there are much fewer open source projects for VB than for C++. That's not nice but well, it's a fact.

If there would be projects for Poser content, now that would be wonderful to see.
Damn there are even game modding teams everywhere...

So please work together for a single goal and in one project and than there could be a reasonable chance to produce something that can brought into battle with DAZ figures.
Not because DAZ figures are so awesome advanced, but because they are so popular.
A high quality product itself can unlikely do the job for it is not quality that is sought for in the first.

It won't be a surprise if some Poser related people of e-frontier are willed to support this if there's just a good amount of work done. From what I uderstood they also prefer quality.

Now I won't interfere any longer in your relationship with bended meshes... g

@Conniekat: Yawn, Yeah, whatever.

Given your screen name, don't you have a few Kitten pics you could show to derail this thread a bit more ?

So far I haven't seen I single CONSTRUCTIVE argument from you about the matter at hand.

Just some thinly veiled troll attacks which are so common for this forum.

And I noticed you already "know" the right people.
I'm sure you'll make a great Rendo mechant, as you already have down the proper Poser forum etiquette down squat.

Anyone know about a Poser forum where one can actually discuss the program without being constantly interrupted by eternal hobbyists who get their jollies out of creating some forum drama ?
God, I miss the old times when people were still eager to LEARN something about the program, and kept their "socializing" to AOL chat-rooms.

@Zarat: Many thanks for the reply !

I see we're actually on the same side.
I took offense at the word "play", but I know see that I misunderstood your intention, so I appologize !

Quote - > Quote - 'By the agressive tone of your reply seems that I hit a weak spot.'

 
Just in case someone falls for this kind of taunt. This kind of inductive statements is one of the more common logical fallacies. People get aggrivated for a number of reasons, and none of them are very likely the reason that supports the argument the other side is trying to make.

If you want to talk about logic, Conniekat, you maybe want to check your methods of reasoning first.
Should you see all the errors there and be able to fix them, then you may try the explicit analysis of said methods.

Else it's a bit funny to watch because of the adventurous path that lead you to your "logical" conclusions. Even if it's modal logic that you'd apply here.

But it's better than posting cat pics...

While I won't get aggravated by cat pics, the misuse of logic is something you need a sound beating for. :p

This said, do you mind me asking for your number? ^_^
Errr... The bending meshes made me ask, you know... :blushing:

> Quote - > Given your screen name, don't you have a few Kitten pics you could show....

 

ooh, great idea, thanks for reminding me!    Here you go! Well, my bad, you said you like to taunt people, so I thought you'd like to be taunted yourself.  slaps forehead I should have known it doesn't work both ways.  My deepest apologies!

Oh, I dunno......perhaps Connie will be the one to administer the beating.  And in a most unpleasant manner..........

OK -- looks like this thing has turned into a semi-serious discussion now -- at least partially.  But the egos still poke through -- as well as the contemptous, dissmissive look-down-the-nose attitudes.  But hey -- animals always behave according to their true natures.

Lest anyone fall for that sort of mind-game:

Those who sit in the peanut gallery and yell at the players on the field often fancy themselves that such behavior magically transforms them into a "leader".  While the true leaders are the merchants (whom we've just been told are all worthy of contempt), the artists, and the designers/programmers at places like DAZ and e frontier.  And Rendo.  And elsewhere.

Others drive by from time-to-time to stick out their tongues and spout "nyahhh-nyahhh!" -- while the leaders are actually working and getting the job done.  Even those oh-so-contemptible, low-life scum hobbyists.  Who probably collectively represent about 80%-to-90% of the market.

Gigantic Ego.  It's a wonderful thing.

> Quote - > Quote - > Quote - 'By the agressive tone of your reply seems that I hit a weak spot.' > > > >   > > Just in case someone falls for this kind of taunt. This kind of inductive statements is one of the more common logical fallacies. People get aggrivated for a number of reasons, and none of them are very likely the reason that supports the argument the other side is trying to make. > > > > If you want to talk about logic, Conniekat, you maybe want to check your methods of reasoning first. > Should you see all the errors there and be able to fix them, then you may try the explicit analysis of said methods. > > Else it's a bit funny to watch because of the adventurous path that lead you to your "logical" conclusions. Even if it's modal logic that you'd apply here. > > But it's better than posting cat pics... > > While I won't get aggravated by cat pics, the misuse of logic is something you need a sound beating for. :p > > This said, do you mind me asking for your number? ^_^ > Errr... The bending meshes made me ask, you know... :blushing:

Dude, I was defending you from Joe's taunts, and you're busting my chops. Phshaw. What's up with you?
Oh, and... I do 3D for living and don't get into biig loong technical discussions unless I get paid for it, no time. I come to this site for hobby 3D ing and kittens.
...now where did I put that other kitty picture...

wait, we need one more cat picture, just for a good measure! Arent they soooo cuuute?

Quote - Oh, I dunno......perhaps Connie will be the one to administer the beating.  And in a most unpleasant manner..........

While I would prefer a pleasant beating, it will be hard to arrange if I did not even get the phone number yet. g

Quote - OK -- looks like this thing has turned into a semi-serious discussion now -- at least partially.  But the egos still poke through -- as well as the contemptous, dissmissive look-down-the-nose attitudes.  But hey -- animals always behave according to their true natures.

Well, it was about time for an short break, right?
If we come back to topic within the next, say 2 pages, it would be great. :)

The Ego is a sneaky beast... Always waiting to jump out and take control.
At least we don't insult us for 20 pages. Now.

Quote - Dude, I was defending you from Joe's taunts, and you're busting my chops. Phshaw. What's up with you?
Oh, and... I do 3D for living and don't get into biig loong technical discussions unless I get paid for it, no time. I come to this site for hobby 3D ing and kittens.

XENOPHONZ gave me an excellent excuse: It's my omnipresent Ego. :p
And my wording is often not as polite as it could be...

---

Time to go sleep now.
Have a nice day/night everyone and get the new figure/add-on team started. :)

"OK -- looks like this thing has turned into a semi-serious discussion now -- at least partially.  But the egos still poke through -- as well as the contemptous, dissmissive look-down-the-nose attitudes.  But hey -- animals always behave according to their true natures."

Wow Xeno, so much insight into your usual behaviour.
I AM surprised.
Should you get finally tired of bullying other people around ?
Please not.
What would Rendo be without your amusing attempts to browbeat all those silly elitist left winging infidels back into submission ?

Too bad I said BAD things about the "players" you so admire, but you know, in the life of every "fan" there comes the day when he realizes that his idols are not as infallible as he envisioned them.
This day usually comes around the 14th birthday, but I guess it's not impossible that some people might expierience this a bit later.

But I constantly forget that some people have a very simple weltanschauung:
It's all good as long as there's money to be made.

So I guess as long as enough suckers can be found to sell an inferior product to, any serious discussion about improving that product MUST not be allowed.
If trolling and doesn't help, Kitty pics are a surefire way to derail any thread.

---

"Oh, and... I do 3D for living and don't get into biig loong technical discussions unless I get paid for it, no time. I come to this site for hobby 3D ing and kittens.
...now where did I put that other kitty picture..."

And of course being a REAL PROFESSIONAL CG-ARTIST gives you the right to derail other people's threads, doesn't it ?
Of couse, all this Poser stuff is soooo booring anyway, let's just do a bit of trolling to liven things up, right ?

And you want to berate me about socializing ?

i rather hone my skills than trying to socialize with people like you.
Thank you very much.

Quote - XENOPHONZ gave me an excellent excuse: It's my omnipresent Ego. :p

shrug

If the shoe fits.........

Quote - And my wording is often not as polite as it could be...

Ah!  A ray of civility!

Quote - get the new figure/add-on team started. :)

 

We're workin' on it.

Joe --

You are so-o-o-o-o-o good at totally missing the point.....you excel at it.  My hat's off to you.

I also love the "bully" accusation -- coming from you: that's geniunely hysterical. :lol:

BTW - I only "bully" bullies.

Quote - i rather hone my skills than trying to socialize with people like you.

Are you saying that you are going to take your social skills elsewhere?

Btw, no more time to play, children.

Uncle Joe is busy making some more morphbrush morphs for Laura. She still has some problems crossing her ankles behind her head. I'm seriously thinking of adding a new waist bodypart to improve her...
Oh wait, I almost started a new boooring technical Poser discussion.

Whew, that was close !

So I'll let you have the last word(s) in this thread.
I'm sure XENO will come up with a final witty remark and Google will come uo with another Kitten pic for ConnieCat to post here.

:tongue2:

Yes!  You are taking your social skills elsewhere! 

So long for now, Uncle Joe.

"And there's 'ol Uncle Joe, he's movin' kinda slow
At the junction........"

> Quote - Oh wait, I almost started a new boooring technical Poser discussion.

You know, I was thinking, perhaps it would be in your interest to try Poser Technical forum on this site, or 3d modelling one, rather then here in the 'general population' where there's a lot of that nasty yucky socializing, hugging and good cheer going on, Mr. Grinch.
Do I get to hug you and pinch your cheeks purple before you leave?

Xeno......  ummmm, you are allowed to google me a cute kitten picture, I shall like that very much! blink blink

Quote - I was being pissy. Sorry. I just have seen what looks like people being attacked for even looking analytically -not critically- at DAZ figures... The thread concerning head and limb proportions turned into a fire storm. I just don't want shut down legitimate areas of discussion... Does V3 have a tiny head? Are certain large players pushing the market to overly high res mesh too quickly for some members of the community? Is it possible for alternative figures to exist as anything other than freebies? I used to come here and learn alot but now my DIY inquires are met with store links so I come by just to see what is up. I just don't grasp what sent this thread into the hot zone. I feel I see a lot of  "floging a dead horse" and "you don't have the professional benefides to have an opinion" that leads to arguments... If you feel you just cant ignore a thread you think is a bozo thread I think its possible to say "I think you are being silly" somehow with out it getting as pissy as I just was!

No prob, wertu.  And I largely agree with what you've said.

The technical points which people make don't concern me.  That's perfectly legitimate.  What concerns me are the insults and the personal digs which some just can't seem to help themselves from spitting out -- along with what might even be otherwise useful information.

Quote - Then their are people like Connie who seem to cool things down just by being there and not taking it too seriously.

 

True.  She's done yeoman's work in this thread.  Puncturing bubbles.

Quote - Puncturing bubbles.

They make the best little kitty toys, don't you know! Running around pouncing on them!

Quote - Xeno......  ummmm, you are allowed to google me a cute kitten picture, I shall like that very much! blink blink

 

Hey Connie --

I have two cats, both of them rescues.  You couldn't ask for better company when you're on the PC, working in 3D.  Or when you are laying out lighting and communications systems plans for a new elementary school building -- which is what I am doing right now.  Unfortunately, my cats aren't here with me in the office; otherwise I might post you a picture.  After all: several people in this thread have already made requests for cat pictures.........I am sure that they wouldn't have asked, if they didn't actually want to see them.

But no gratifude at all......sigh  There's just no pleasing some people.

Quote - > Quote - Puncturing bubbles.

They make the best little kitty toys, don't you know! Running around pouncing on them!

 

Yes, they do.  Cats just love to toy with them......before it's time for lunch, that is. :biggrin:

Quote - > Quote -

I have two cats, both of them rescues.  You couldn't ask for better company when you're on the PC, working in 3D.  Or when you are laying out lighting and communications systems plans for a new elementary school building -- which is what I am doing right now. 

 

My kitties are rescues too... well, now after being with me for 10 years, they think they're King and Queen! Communication plan... how interesting :)   Does that fall under electrical building planing or is it a discipline unto itself?
Sounds like we're in somewhat similar industries... I'm not a 'CG artist', as Joe assumed... I do however build and sometimes render, sometimes animate3D models for living. For building industry visualizations and analisys. Making a model of a 600 lot residential subdidision at the moment. Lot of spline modeling, and milions of poligons rather then tens of thousands... Anyway, blah blah, gets boring after a while.