Well... judging from the full product P5 price ($550), it seems that it's likely that I could be right in fearing a $200-$250 upgrade price from P4 to P5. :-( One consideration: Curious Labs affirmed recently that Poser 5 price "will be in the Poser price tradition" or a similar sentence. Well, sincerely, I don't think that an US price of $550 is in the tradition of Poser affordability. I remember the copies of Poser 4 on the Italian shelves, in the MC days, and you could get it with the equivalent of $300. I don't remember the US list price of Poser 4 in the MC days, but considering that Europe prices for Poser are usually higher than US prices, I would say that it was probably less than $300 in the US back then. Now to me a hop of $250 or more on the list price sounds like alot - in fact, Poser price has almost doubled - I wouldn't call this a traditional Poser price policy. What I hope is that Curious Labs could at least set up this time a ditribution structure in Europe that does not punish European users as it was the case with the Pro Pack, whose price in many European countries was as much as 70% or more higher than in the U.S. Now this, for Poser 5, would mean a full product price of the equivalent of about $950, and a probable upgrade price from P4 of the equivalent of about $425. Which would definitely (at least for the moment) cut me out of the possibility of upgrading.

Hard to define what "will be in the Poser price tradition" exactly means, but if it's providing a lot of value for the price, then $550 is nothing to complain about. To get comparable features (particles, collision detection, "hair," etc.) in C4D or Lightwave, you'll pay more than twice that price, and still won't have the character animation features and all the great poser freebies.

Don't feel left out. Here in Canada it will be the same for us. The $ is so bad, plus shipping, duty, and every thing else they can nail us for, will be way out of my price range for awhile. I don't know if we will be able to D/L the up-grade, it would help price range. I guess some of us will have to buy a lot of tissues to wipe our eyes when we see what we can't do. Tashar 59

Curious Labs is a sponsor of this website...
I think is a good idea if a Manager of Curious Labs Costumer Care reply about the distribution structure in Europe and price... (difference of 70% is crazy).

Is the Europe vs US price difference some sort of tax? Just curious, lived in Greece for a few years and they had a terrific import tax on "luxury" items (like cars, electronics, etc...)

The $550.00 price is very steep. Gonna take a lot longer to save up. Especially when ya have 5 children.

Kupa has said though that the educational discount will still apply to Poser 5, so get out there and enroll at your local community college! :)

First, everybody who could talk about this price, or any price upgrade tier, in is Texas this week for Siggraph, where they have a booth. I don't expect to see their exhausted faces (or fingers) until next Monday. A bit more patience is going to be needed. Second, that price for Poser 4 was from 4 years ago, and Poser was priced in line with Bryce and the rest of the MetaCreations suite. (Remember that it did not even have its own real renderer, it was originally designed to be an aid, not an end-product.) Third, look at the damned plug-in prices for features which ought to have been included in the major packages. For $500 you get ONE of the things which Poser 5 will do, and you must own the base package, which costs thousands of dollars. Fourth, Steve has promised tiered upgrade prices, so I suggest that we wait and see before complaining. Fifth, I've seen some of what Poser 5 can do, and this price is more than fair. It is an astonishing program. Besides, it is almost always possible to find a sale price or a bundle price. Sixth, folks in Europe have a valid concern with the duties and taxes. Since the product hasn't yet been released, maybe they could talk to CL about distribution channels to make it easier for them for them to find and afford it. Carolly

jchimim: I agree that P5 seems to offer much compared to P4, but don't forget that AT THE TIME P4 came out, it was a major breakthrough also: realistic characters and posing, easy animation with walk designer, transparency for hair etc. I think that Poser 5 is not much superior for today compared to what Poser 4 used to be in early 1999. three years are forever in the computer world, and in spite of everything, P4 is STILL the powering engine behind it all, so this is the remaining proof that it was a breaktthrough for the time, indeed. And it was priced $300 or less. So that's for me the "line of tradition" for Poser. I would have understood a price variation up to $400 - but $500, sorry, but it's too much of a price increase for me to be able to follow the line of tradition there. beryld: yes I know that Propack was bad in Canada too, although I compared prices at the time and Canada was still better than EU. Let's hope in better times for everyone. Maveris: I have raised the issue more than one time. I personally tried several times to upgrade to Propack and always failed because I could never raise the necessary funds. I was even offered a "dubious" copy from a person here, which I refused because I adverse piracy strongly (I work for a CG company and I know what it means not to get work because pirates are hitting sales). Yet I have to say that as much as I find immoral the piracy, I also find immoral that for whatever the reasons, a product that somewhere in the world is available to people at a given price, somewhere else people has to pay the 70% more to get it. These were the figures I calculated about the propack in Europe. Worse was Italy, because the Italian distributor is a totally greedy company with a well deserved reputation of a greedy company. In Italy ProPack was something more than 70%+ the US price. This includes the 20% VAT, but still, it is a BIG lot more. I have calculated that it would have costed me much LESS if I could order Propack in the USA and get it via airmail priority!!! Now think how much less distributors pay for the raw product, then how much less they pay for the shipping of a large stock compared to a single item airmail priority shipping... and you get the idea of how MUCH monstruous greed is hiding somewhere in the line that brings CL products from the US to Europe. Second to Italy with regards to bad pricing, there was England, which was just a little better. France was better, it was still very high there too, but the figure was about 40% or 50% more than US price, which is a lot, but if you compare it to the over 70% increase of Italy... At the time, I mentioned the situation to the CL staff, but I got no feedback from them - but this is not important, the important thing is that they DO SOMETHING to DRAMATICALLY cut the price recharge factor of foreign redistributors. Poser is a hot seller, is not an obscure software. It's selling figures could justify, in my opinion, that Curious Labs applies a non-exclusive policy to resellers. I am under the impression (I might be bad, but still have to be contradicted about this) that CL, in order to raise some pre-sale money, signed some sort of distribution exclusivity contracts with European resellers, getting some financial return in change of the freedom for the reseller to set the price in a non competitive way (buying Propack online from a foreing country was severely forbidden). Now all evidences lead to this conclusion and I am not afraid in stating out now that this is not a good policy with regards to customers. It creates heavy discriminations, leaves the software destiny in the hands of virtually greedy (and practically also!) people (the exclusive resellers), and raises anger in the foreing users who like me, feel discriminated and injustly punished. Now I think that if a company is worried about piracy, this is the road they should NOT take. For one like me who is strong enough (and personally interested enough, I admit) in fighting piracy, you'll meet dozens who might be perplexed about hitting a friendly company with a warez use, but woh would not hesitate in hitting an unfriendly and discriminating company if they had an occasion. And you all know that an increase in piracy will lead to less resources invested in developement of future versions, and a damage to us all ultimately over the years. And the FIRST to tace care of taking measures againts this MUST be the software producer: CL MUST do everything that is possible to ensure that Poser 5 is honestly and fairly distributed all over the world, wihtout resellers vampirizing the final customers at their will. This means, dear CL (if you are reading this), that you must say STOP and NO to exclusivity contracts for third party resellers, if you want to keep the love and respect from your foreign users.

We also have to realize that every country has their own restrictions and taxes regarding imported products. In some cases sales may HAVE to go through a redistributer to ensure import taxes are paid. Curious Labs can't be blamed for restrictive import policies.

I'm not sure that CL can't be blamed...
Cinema4D (Maxon software) have about the same price in all the world.

As a 3D Graphics hobbiest I will have to wait and see if I can afford the upgrade when it comes out. I have hopes that I hope I will eventually find a commercial market for my Poser pictures in magazines or other venues, but that may yet be some time in the future. I have put off upgrading my Carrara 1.2 to the new version because I have been waiting with anticipation the new Poser 5.0 release. An upgrade price of 1/2 the full version price would seem fair to me. What I'm hoping is that Pro Pack's features will be rolled into the new version, it would be worth the additional price of the upgrade. If everyone who is a Pro Pack user looks at the total cost of Poser 4 with Pro Pack, the prices quoted above do seem to me "in the Poser tradition." I also think it would be a mistake for CL to release a new Pro Pack add on, the new version should be more inclusive without the need to purchase more and more add ons to add functionality which should have existed in the first place. I'd like to see more compatibility with other 3D programs as well. The only other thing I'd like to say is that CL has to remember what their primary market is. Because of the snobbery in the 3D industry, I have serious doubts in computer graphics professionals will every fully embrace it the way they embraced Maya and Lightwave (see past threads for the debate on this). I think the bobbiest, at least for now, is the primary market and if the price is too high many people (including myself)in this category simply will not be able to afford to buy it. That being said my only real fear is that DAZ and other vendors won't offer Poser 4 users any more products because of incompatibilities between the new and old versions.

Maveris: Cinema4D is a German company, how does Lightwave (U.S. company) compare in the US and Europe? Legume: couldn't agree with you more, but rather you not tell CL that :)

I wonder which of you who are touting poser 5 and saying that it will be worth the price because you've seen what it does is going to get a free copy for beta testing? Just wondering. There are a lot of people here who won't be able to afford it. I think when you have something that once it is created electronically and you never have to create again should not cost as much as something you have to keep re-creating to sell, like a car. Just my opinion. I honestly don't know if I will be able to upgrade, and considering how many other folks won't be able to I wonder if they will end up breaking even. Sometimes it's better to sell more for a little less than to try to sell a few for a lot. Look at some of the price drops in the business, Maya being a prime example. Just a thought. Marque

I agree that poser will probably still have good value, but that's only half the issue. I think "keeping the poser tradition" means value for your money ANDaffordability. There are lots of nice high-end packages like Maya and 3DSMax covering the high-end market, what's special about Poser is the low price that made it accessible to the masses. The reason this poser forum became such a huge community is because of the size of the userbase. And the size of the user base is directly corresponding to affordability of the tool. I want Poser to evolve and improve just like the rest of you do, but I don't want Curious Labs trying to make poser a do-everything package to compete with Maya, because that will leave me with no Poser. And it won't just be me. -Adam

Maveris said "I'm not sure that CL can't be blamed... Cinema4D (Maxon software) have about the same price in all the world." That's precisely the point. There are NO restrictions in imports of software. I know the matter well. There is a Customs fee, which in Italy is 20% of the value of the object, BUT, laws says, if you pay customs, you do NOT have to pay VAT (which is also 20%). If you pay VAT, is it because you have purchased from a reseller, then in this case, you do NOT have to pay the customs! That is the reseller's duty. Plain and simple. If you are a final customer, and buy from abroad, you pay Customs charge, but not VAT, because your money does not go to a national company. If you as final customer buy from a reseller, the reseller must impose on you the VAT, because it is a national company, but if the reseller asks you to pay for customs, they are illegal, because customs is exclusive charge of reseller. So the point really is: 1- there are companies which distribute directly their products. This requires investment but it's the most profitable situation 2- there are companies which do ecommerce, and sell online - this also is profitable until laws will come to rule that too mnd make you pay customs on downloaded goods (yes sooner or later that crap will happen you can bet on it) 3- there are companies which do use resellers in a non exclusive way. Like, they let Amazon, Beyond, UpgradesUnlimited, Barnes adn Noble, etc, all resell their product. They give a "suggested retail price" and then it's up to single resellers to make the final price, keeping in mind that in a non exclusive reselling situation, you have competition, so whatever you charge more than the SRP, it might kill your sales. 4- and lastly, there are companies who sign exclusive resale contracts with foreing distributors, get their financial feedback sometimes all immediately (if they are lucky and they have a strong product), sometimes part immediately and part with shares ON THE RESELLER'S RECHARGE (meaning they get their basic price plus a further share) The last situation (situation 4) is what with all probability happened with CL and Propack distribution. Needless to say, situation 4 might be the safest (under many respects) for both producer (because it gets a sure financial return it can count on) and reseller (because it gets exclusivity and can set the price without competition) is the most crappy and, dare I say, the less fair and democratic, for final purchasers. It is a solution that is dangerously close, to my POV, to a situation of monopoly commerce, where a goods is sold at an arbitrary price for lack of competition in the market (I am speaking here of the resale market, not the software market). Legume: I agree that a jump in price was to be expected. But as I said, if it was a $100 jump, then I could have accepted it as a in-line-with-poser-tradition price. Being a $250 approx. jump, it can not be defined as the above. It is more correctly defined as the poser traditional price DOUBLED. Because that's the cold stone truth, regardless of all the reasoning we may make here. So ultimately, it goes down to a precise point, which has less to do with price than it has to do with raising people's expectations and letting them down later. Curious Labs have made a public statement (that of the poser traditional price) that simply proved not to be true. I personally didn't like it very much. Then we don't know what's behind it. Probably the person who made that statement spoke in hos own will and hope, and maybe some company boss (or financer) privately reproached him and imposed a higher price... who knows -and we'll never know. What's for sure is that we have been told an -at least partially- incorrect information and perspective, and there could be better ways to start a promotion of a new product than giving illusions to people and at least partially, letting them down when it comes down to the facts. Having that said, I agree that many people will "need" poser 5 - but don't forget that for one poser merchant, there are dozen simple users who can not justify high expenses for a hobby. And ultimately it's a dog biting his own tail, because if the user base restricts, merchants sell less, if they sell less, they produce less and invest less, and so Poser 6 will see much less invetments from the merchants, if Poser 5 is out at a merchant-justifyable price only, and not at a end-user-justifyable price. Really it is more complex and involved than it might appear. But hey they don't make university courses in marketing for nothing, don't they. ;-)

I just hope Curious Labs didn't trow to the toilet the request I did some time ago about a spanish version of poser 5, I really hope they are not forgetting this (spanish speaking) community, they could surprised how many people who speak spanish is currently using poser. About the price thing, I agreed with Legume, CL needed to up the price, but please think about how many people over here use poser, there is a bunch of people outside that it is a serious punch to their budget to pay such prices, one of the things that makes poser what is it right now is the amount of users which has been coooperated one way or another, with CL, I just hope Curious Labs showed a little gratefull for this huge loyal community their helped to create, when they created poser. CL don't forget about us as we don't forget about you.

jchimin says: "how does Lightwave (U.S. company) compare in the US and Europe?".

Poser4 Full (U.S.A) $219
Poser4 Full (Italy) $360 about +65%

LightWave 7.5 Full (U.S.A.) $1.595
LightWave 7.5 Full (Italy) $2.129 about +33%

My few comments...FWIW: I agree a lot of people who use Poser are hoppyists. maybe/probably the majority. CL has to ask themselves if their price will appeal to the hoppyist. And will it appeal to the people who have "profit" in mind but haven't yet reached that level...therefore are tentative about upgrading. Cheap software? I remember the story of Borland (and maybe older people reading will remember as well. He wanted to sell good cheap software. But people thought because it wasn't priced high, it wasn't good. And MS wiped their butt. Phillipe was a smart guy and ran a good company...but maybe that was their downfall. Pricing. Of course, they were also "fighting" MS...ugh! Ultimately, one needs to find out what Poser 5 offers before "throwing in the towel". I'll have to tip my hat to what some of the people in the know seem to know. Perhaps when all the info on P5 comes out in fact, perhaps people will understand why the price is as it is. Of course, if this rumored "greatness" fails to impress, P5 could fail to appeal to the masses. I'm sure CL has measured everything carefully. There! Mouth shut. Gonna go watch Witchblade with wifey. See ya in Hotlanta @ Renderosity-con...hehe.

"I think when you have something that once it is created electronically and you never have to create again should not cost as much as something you have to keep re-creating to sell, like a car." There's a LOT more time/money spent creating a product like poser than most people realize, high-end geeks are expensive to operate (just ask any of the failed dot-coms.) Also, don't forget the support cost. I seriously doubt GM gets many questions about how to drive their cars, or compatability issues when a new road (OS) comes out. (I put this in another thread) "Well, let's suppose a new poser version/upgrade comes out every three years (?) If upgrading costs $250, that's less than $7 per month! Pretty "cheap" entertainment! (Now, if I can just convince my wife....)" Personally, I spend less on software than I do on movies, and get much more fun out of the software...

Thanks Maveris, you definately have a valid complaint...

Reviewer comments from Curious Labs' own reviews page: "Poser 4 has been an extremely affordable yet remarkably powerful way to bring 3D character animation to the desktop. . ." "Pro Pack is revolutionary. It's affordable..." "With the inclusion of Poser Pro Pack, Poser 4 can be used more fully by professional animators, graphic designers and illustrators, web designers as well as a hobbyist who wants to enjoy features found in high end applications without having to purchase expensive software." "Version 4 of Poser is an in dispensable tool for computer-generated animation -- and a great deal." "Though you shouldn't expect to sit down with Poser 4.0 and crank out the next Toy Story in an evening, it will give you a relatively inexpensive good start..." Conclusion: Poser is special not just because of its unique features, but also its unique price point. that's why it's such a hit product, and the reviewers noticed this. -Adam

Maveris wrote: >Poser4 Full (U.S.A) $219 >Poser4 Full (Italy) $360 about +65% > >LightWave 7.5 Full (U.S.A.) $1.595 >LightWave 7.5 Full (Italy) $2.129 about +33% Thanks Maveris for finding and publishing that info. So... my memory was more forgiving than the fact about Poser 4. It was much less than $300 in the States. And the price difference was not distant from the (hideous) record of Propack. There is evidently something very bad for customers with the way Poser has been resold in Europe so far. Recently I have seen and compared the resale prices of other popular items such as Bryce 5 and Vue 4... Bryce 5 is higher in EU than in the US, but not even comparable to the stellar recharge imposed on Pro Pack... About Vue 4: it is very much fairly sold in the US. So really distribution is a company's choice. CL is free of keeping with exclusive distributors (I hope they won't), but if they do, they can not expect their customers to follow. One concrete example: should I personally see once again, that to upgrade my Poser 4 to Poser 5, I'll have to spend 70% or 75% more than a US Poser user, I will take this VERY bad. You can have it for granted. Because it would be beyond my affordable price limit, and because I would see in that the repeated abuse. And if a company chooses distributor's money AGAINST user's money, why as an user would I feel like buying from that company? One answer might be: because Poser is in a de facto monopoly situation, for lack of competitors: Poser is a one of a kind product, which owns the 100% share of the potential market. True, but you know something? My Poser 4 still works perfectly. If instead of accepting being taken by the throat with a +70% price recharge, all European users would just sit on the river's bank and wait... About the "poser-line price"... have you used your pocket calculators? I just did use mine. Wanna know how much in percentage has price of Poser 5 increased compared to Poser 4? It has increased of the 250,68 % Is there anyone who still thinks that this is a price in the line of the Poser tradition?

I live in sweden and when I bought the upgrade to Poser 4 it costed me 260 dollars more than 100% more this is insane I also bought z-brush witch have the option of download at the site for the same price as in USA and thats perfectly legal so why cant CL offer poser for purchase and download at least for Europe?????

A vaguely $250 price jump for a program that hasn't been updated (ProPack excluded) in 3 years. That's less than $100 a year price jump. Seems about right to me. Look at Corel Draw and Adobe that come out vaguely once a year and you have to pay $100-$200 to upgrade.

Dragonlady: based on the following evidences: - download version of Pro Pack available ONLY to users of U.S. and of few other countries; - U.S. stores such as Beyond.com reselling ProPack but prohibiting purchase of ProPack to non-US users (while most other software can be purchased, e.g. I purchased Amorphium from them time ago); - European online stores such as Amazon.co.uk not selling ProPack (at least at the time I was looking for it) I came to the conclusion that Curious Labs must have signed exclusive contracts with Europeans resellers, who could resale ProPack at the price they wanted, free from any competition. Is that legal? Yes. Is that good for the image of the company? Not in my opinion, but maybe they don't care much about what European users think - they evidently prefer the money of their resale contracts. Is that wise? No, and neither it is respectful of people who invested their money in a product for the upgrade of which they have been -such as in my case, or your case in Sweden- truly SACKED. A honest software resale price (and I underline the word "software" because when it comes to overseas distribution, it is very significant, price-wise, to differentiate this from the heavy and large hardware products) can be one that is between 30% and 35% of the original price including VAT. This takes into account the custom charges, stock shipping costs (usually small for thing like software, that can fit into almost any shipping as a filler, doesn't need a standalone shipment) and a very fair reseller's share. Not forgetting that the price the company sells to a reseller, is very different from the price that the same company sells to final users in it's own country. Any software resale price that is higher than 35% and lower than 50% is a too high resale price, but still within decency. Any software resale price that is higher than 50% and lower than 80% is a shamelessly unfair greedy price that discriminates the foreign customer in an unfair way Any software resale price that is higher than 80% is, very plainly said, like a theft.

well on to my 2 cents.... ;-) I am really looking forward to Poser 5, however I do not agree with CL's price hike. I don't care if it does grow hair, you always add new features in an upgrade, otherwise why are you upgrading? This is not a small price jump but a HUGE one. In the MC days Poser 4 came on a hybrid cd with both windows and Mac versions. Now they are seperating them, which is not good in my opinion. And they are releasing them stagerd, saying to the Mac users that they don't give a patoot about their business enough so they will release simeltainious. The Price is way too high, Poser 4 had a retail of $169-199. So this is a 175% increase. CL raised the price when they took it over as it was. The upgrade price had better be spectacular! Becasue at $550 they have taken themselves out of the low-priced market and entered the mid-high priced market. Not a good move as they do not offer what the high end players do. PAGZone

Since we are all giving opinions... Another thing you guys should take into account, P4 was developed with the support/funding of MetaCreations. I know I do not know the terms of the spinoff, but I am sure Metacreations retained the majority of the revenues, including the fee that CL paid to buy the application. Poser 5 has been developed completely and totally by Curious Labs on their own nickle, mostly what was probably paid on upgrades and the like. The application IS changing and evolving. It IS moving a bit up the scale, offering features that in other apps cost significantly more (hair, cloth, mega-improved rendering). It is becoming an app that can truly be used for professional digital imaging. Many in the community are "basic" hobby-ists (no insult intended), who do this for fun. The basic higher price will unfortunately weed some of us out. Hopefully the final upgrade prices are compatible for most of the community. Some will be unable to migrate, which is a shame, but it is also basic economics. Curious Labs must recoup its investment in developing the product while getting a fair value for the product. The truly sad thing, at least as far as the US economy is concerned, is that CL will be releasing P5 later in the summer/early fall. With the way the stock market is going, and the economy may start following, many more casual users who would have been able to upgrade will find they have to divert their "play" money to more important expenses.

There is a previous thread with a press release from Siggraph 2002. Within it, the controversial new Poser pricing of $549.

let's see new rendering engine, strand based hair, gravity effects and collision detection, new morphing system, face mapping, not to mention high rez figures with textures by some of the best in our community, all with backwards compatibility, acording to CL. that they could pull this off in a program for less then a grand is nothing short of amazing. most of the stuff on this list is stuff that people here have been hoping for since P4 came out. so don't be surprised when they give us everything we wanted but have to charge more for it. I for one plan to forgo a few fancy Meals For Happy meals If it's everything it's cracked up to be.

Who cares The US $ is overvalued = more imports less exports. = balance of trade problems and less jobs. The rest of the world is losing interest in the USA for a variety of reasons too long to be listed at this forum. Tony Blair is under pressure from his own party to pull his head in , and here in Australia our Prime Minister is known as R Slicker ( Arse Licker ) for his latest efforts in the US

The easiest money to be made in this universe and all parallel universes would have been to bet that when P5 was announced, there would be a segment of the customer base that would explode, even though they have one piece of (supposedly) negative information...the retail price. First, there are people throwing around the $550 as though it's the upgrade price, which it clearly is not. Second, there are people assuming that the upgrade price will be $230 (subtracting p4 price from $549). If this is the case, the upgrade from p4 (w/o PP) will be about what you paid for p4, which is stiff, but which must be measured against what the previews suggest is a quantum leap and quite competitive with other lower end programs like TrueSpace. If you wouldn't use the new features, then don't upgrade; no one is holding a gun to your head. I would also note that someone in a prior thread calculated that with a 3 year cycle, the cost works out to $7 a month. Moreover, I would note that the assumption being made is only an assumption; the retail price for Photoshop 7 is about $550-600, but the upgrade price is only about $140. So maybe, just maybe, people ought to wait for CL to actually announce the upgrade price before going ballistic about it. Of course, the second easiest money to be made in the universe is betting that people who live on negativity will either respond to this small piece of advice nastily or simply ignore it to wallow in their own bile. PS: Just to preempt one or two snide comments, I am not someone for whom price is not an issue. My credit card bill this month was 3 times the average amount...so a late summer release of P5 may well pose a budgetary issue for me also. But I'm not going to worry about it until I know I have something to worry about.

Personally I do not care that I will have to save an extra month for the Poser 5 I will tough it out and get it when I can afford it. It will be a good xmas present for me :) I am in Canada so I am hoping that the upgrade will be a good price.

Ryamka, and others OK with the Price... I do agree that it is evolving and is changing, but that does not mean you lose focus of your customers and your market. Yeah they added some fancy schmancy new rendering features, wow, motion blur, luminosity, reflection???? wow, most modern renderers have had these for years. Poser 4 should have had these items, but it's render engine is way to weak for serious use. I give the example of another ex MC program, Carrara2. This is the first version (much like Poser 5) that Eovia has had complete control of. But they gave equivalent features to what P5 is offering like Bones, Subdivision Surfaces, Photon Mapping, Golbal Illimunation, Caustics, Raydiosity, and many more improvments. However the price only raised $50. Most people did not squawk at all about this, it is very much justified. And the rendering engine in Carrara is simply stunning for a low end package. If Eovia can do it why can't Curious labs? A price hike was expeced but not 175%. Sorry but I do not think CL is making a smart decision with this. they are going to hurt there market share for sure, Which brings me to my last point, Poser has never been a tool for the majority of Professional animators and the like. It has been marketed more as a hobyist tool. Now they are trying to market it as a mid-range to highend package. Aint gonna happen, as most people are still going to think of it as a hobyists app. Look at the car maker Hyundai (sp?) they made really, really cheap cars. People bought them up, but they were no BMW. Now they are trying to market the new line of Hyundai cars and SUV's and compete with the Big boys like Toyota, Nissan and Honda. No way, people still see the peice of crap Hyundai excell and laugh! well these are my opionion and don't flame me becasue you disagree.... But thoughts on the matter of course are welcome... -PAGZone PS CL if you are reading this thread, you really need to give Poser 4 upgraders a Seriously insanley awesome price. Live up to the "Poser tradition" you keep blabbing about.

Oh, sheesh! Foreign politics? Take it to the OT Forum if you want to yammer about your leadership and tax rates! Curious Labs makes modeling and animation software: they don't run foreign governments or even this one, and as far as I know don't set foreign customs duties, either. ::roll eyes:: What does any of that have to do with a more than reasonable price for this particular piece of software? I am neither a beta-tester nor an employee of CL, although I am bound by a non-disclosure agreement because I have seen Poser 5 during development. If I say that the program is awesome, it is my honest opinion, based upon 15 years in the games industry and umpteen different operating systems and more software and resultant upgrades than any human should ever have to endure. I'm not on anybody's payroll. (Besides, if I was an employee, I'd have to be a lot quieter and more discreet with any of my opinions.) I'm not alone. I doubt if any of the people who were in my livingroom drooling over Steve's shoulder are any different: we were drooling because Poser 5 is giving us more than we'd imagined or dared hope for. Just the real cloth and all of its dynamics is worth the full price! And we should all be eligible for upgrade prices depending upon what version of Poser we have. Poser 4 with ProPack is $379 Poser 5 with a hell-of-a-lot-more is $549 Think about it. Look at the images Steve posted and look at the animations again... and think about value per dollar. Carolly

Well, Poser4 and the pro pack cost about $415. I wouldn't expect to have to pay much more than $150 for the P5 upgrade, otherwise, it was not a good idea to have recently purchased P4/pp. I recall in the original Kupa announcement or somewhere near there the notion that the upgrade would be price the best for the pro pack owners. At $250 it would have been far cheaper to wait and buy P5 outright. Several asked if they should wait. Guess they got bum advice. Now if I had owned P/PP since 99, I'd have to concede that I got good use of it over the years and that should come at some cost, but to have just bought it and end up paying MORE than a full copy kinda sux. Maybe CL will make a special offer to buyers within the last year, or maybe they will simply make a special offer for a limited time to any P4/pp owner who wants to upgrade right away. Lets wait and see. CL seems like a good company and I appreciate Kupa's thread giving us a taste of what is to come. And I agree that LW and the like are higher end, but they are also modelers with powerful render engines. They are different kinds of apps used in movie work and any kid that wants to get into movie work will know that LW/Universe/Softimage/Maya/etc are necessary skills for the big bucks. So there's no comparison there. But who knows, maybe someday there will be. $550 for P5 is $135 more than the P4/PP so I don't see that as a major issue, but the upgrade price does bother me.

PS... I wouldn't be afraid of a 200 to 250 upgrade price to the basic P4. The pro pack, which does far less than P5 costs 199, so that's in the ball park for a basic P4 upgrade.

Since Mac users supposedly make more money than PC users, I guess I have no room to complain about the new Poser price. --LIKE HELL!!!

When I first bought P3 it was something like US$125. The P4 upgrade was around that point too.

IMHO, $550 is not in the Poser price range. I think that is closer to the Photoshop price range.

It may be worth it, but if P5 is as buggy as P4 (on the Mac), then it's not.

PAGZone, I understand what you are saying, and as a long-time Poser user (yes, there is a copy of Poser 2 buried somewhere in the mountains of CDs on my shelves) I really do understand your sentiments. I started using Poser in college where they had it in a graphics lab I worked in. I thought it was the neatest thing, especially because as a college student I could not afford THE application at the time - 3D Studio (the old, ugly DOS versions). All I was pointing out was that CL has apparently made this decision to "upscale" their product, and I tried to provide a possible explanation of why. There WILL be people placed out of the opportunity to buy this upgrade, and the community as a whole will suffer from their inability to participate. But as I tried to say earlier, it is an economic decision. If CL feels that their product has a certain value, or if they have to recoup a specific amount of development costs and have determined that X users will upgrade or purchase at $X and $Y costs, then that is their decision. I am sure that they have performed some market analysis, and they believe they will be able to get a "fair value - from their perspective" with the price points they have set. They will live or die by that decision. If they meet their sales targets, then they survice to make Poser 6. If not enough people can afford to upgrade or purchase full copies, then they will either have to lower the price or will go out of business. And even if they lower the price later, they may generate ill feelings in the community and still not succeed. However, all of this aside, it does not hurt to voice your opinions. CL does listen to these forums, and they may better understand the impact that their pricing structure will have on ALL of their market, not just those who can readily justify the purchase/upgrade. - Ray Yamka

Eric, I think you may have misread something... $379.00 is the current (limited time) pricing for P4+Pro Pack. As far as I know, no one has announced what the upgrade to P5 prices will be (other than speculation).

Spanki, they must have dropped the price lately. I bought P4 for $216 and PP for $199 two months ago.

Assuming that the recent price change was to align the P4/ProPack prices with the P5 upgrade price, that would be a $180 difference, and we may expect the upgrade to be priced between $200 and $250.

As has been mentioned however, for UK and EU buyers there seems to be a substantial price hike (and this is before sales tax) through the official resellers.

Bill

The ONLY official price which has been given out is the Suggested Retail Price for the full version. At this time everything else is speculation. Of course, it is better if people are grumbling about possible price points than about release dates, features, or even the very existence of a product. ;^) Carolly

I'm going to stand 'shoulder to shoulder' with Hauksdotttir over this, Poser 5 will make the best damn 3D porn ever so it's worth every penny....

lol@ carolly and saxon the best question is: will you upgrade if its $250? $200? 150? what if you have to upgrade your OS as well? How much then? to answer my question: no I will not buy it immediately at any price if I have to upgrade my OS. Why? Because my computer is so old that I will have to buy a new computer...(I bought it from columbus when he came to america..heh) And since Im waiting on what corel does with bryce, I wouldnt buy p5 that fast because Im primarily a bryce person. If corel makes b6 compatible with ME and 98, I'll not only buy a new super computer with an new OS but I'd also buy p5 at the same time..and brycetech.com will probably experience a mini explosion in size. If corel doesnt make b6 compatible, then I wont buy a new computer until I just cant take it anymore..which would be about when they hit 5ghz speed. Yeah I know, its confusing :P The whole point? A lot of people are gonna be outta lot of cash over the next year for their hobbies/work. I myself think the p5 upgrade (if you use poser a considerable amount) would most definately be worth the upgrade price...and like saxon says..wait til you see the new p5 topless female models holding a sword in front of a temple with their new stranded hair! WOOOOOEEEEEEEEE!!! I think p5 is gonna rock :) BT

EoIpso said "CL couldn't justify P5 upgrade with ultra-conforming-morphing boobs"

Hmmm... Hope they at least included the tools for automating jiggle and shake like I requested. And how about including a few temple props this time around?

I hate to say "I told you so", but I told you so. It seemed clear from previous discussion of the features that would be included in P5 that it would be seriously more expensive. $550 is actually less than I expected. The key questions really are, (1) what will be the upgrade price, and (2) are non-US customers going to get screwed? If we get the right answers to these two questions, things may not be too bad.

LOL @ saxon! Glad that you clearly said SHOULDER to SHOULDER ::snicker::

Phantast wrote: "The key questions really are, (1) what will be the upgrade price, and (2) are non-US customers going to get screwed? If we get the right answers to these two questions, things may not be too bad." Phantast, I of course agree totally with you on the two key questions. Let's not forget that for non-US users, the final price will be that indicated by CL PLUS the customs PLUS any charge of expenses PLUS any share for the reseller, be it fair or etremely greedy as it's always been. So, it really is DECEIVING to say, e.g. "ah... well $250 for the upgrade is not that bad". It wouldn't be, PER SE, but what will become that $250 for the final non-US customer? Previous experience with Poser shows that what is orginally a $250 price is going to become something between $400 and $450 at the end of the chain. THAT's most likely what's going to happen and that's what is scaring me. One final note: many have written to justify Curious Labs for trying to reposition Poser from the hobbyist application it was, into the mid-price range. I do NOT question that. Poser 5 may well have all the needed super-fantastic features to be truly right and appropriate in becoming a mid-price range software. My problem is: if THIS is going to happen, then WHY have Curious Labs tried to make us believe that Poser 5 will be in the continuity of tradition with Poser 4? This wording does not hold to be true according to the first facts emerging. They should have said "we have added tons of extra features to Poser 5 and we feel Poser 5 now deserves to be placed in a price range that is appropriate to it's quality level". So why trying to make us believe that Poser 5 was in the Poser tradition of low end market? That was not fair to Poser customers. It raised expectations that are likely to be let down.

I want to know EXACTLY how much the upgrade will cost. I want to know EXACTLY what day and what time it will be released. I want to know EXACTLY how fast my processor should be and and how much memory I will need. I want to know EXACTLY what other programs I can export animations to. I want to know EXACTLY what props, models, textures, and figures will be made obsolete. I want to know EXACTLY what time KUPA will come to my house to personally tutor me on the new release. That about covers all the previous threads,except maybe about the personal tutorials... :)

Several people seem to be forgetting an important point... I keep seeing the price comparison made between P4 -> P5 and complaints that the price nearly doubled. But since it appears that the Pro Pack got bundled in (along with the host of new features), they really only raised the price from ~$400 (between $380 and about $420, depending on when and how you bought Pro Pack) to $550. So from CL's point of view at least, a $130-$170 bump in price is pretty reasonable for the new version. (and the only "$250 upgrade price" mentioned so far is pure speculation... we don't know the upgrade prices yet) Of course many will argue (justifiably so) that they don't need Pro Pack features, but it doesn't sound like (at this point) there will be any option for a lower-end product. That does suck about non-US price trends though... I sure hope it doesn't turn out as bad as it has for you folks in the past. As for me, I don't own Pro Pack yet and I'm on a shoe-string budget (and need new hardware), so it will be some time before I could upgrade to P5... I'm not happy about it, but I just don't see anything inconsistent with the announced P5 pricing (ie. I'd love to see an upgrade for $100 from P4 - but it ain't gonna happen).

How much have you spent for Poser + upgrades already? How much have you spent in the marketplace? How many 'hobbyists' own Photo Shop? ..people (hobbyiests) spend that kind of money all the time.