I may have missed someone elses comments on this, as I've not read the forum as much the last month, but I haven't seen anybody mention the fact that CL has a real pain in the butt copy protection scheme. I was going over to Curious Labs Store with the Idea of buying Poser 5 when I saw mention of the online unlock protection thing. Personally I think it sucks big time but Im sure Cl doesn't care. I mean they know from past discussion on this site (and others Im sure) that a lot of people were against it. Yet here it is. Once again the honest people are made to suffer while the dishonest will problly circumvent said protection and have less hassle. It really makes me wonder if I shouldn't find another hobby. Or at least different software. Ok flame away. Im sure I'll be labelled evil now for speaking ill of CL. Its a shame but the stuff I've seen about Poser5 looked really good.

I dunno, it works fine for most people.

If you haven't seen anyone mention it, you haven't looked very far. :) You missed all the fun the last couple weeks. Phoenix

oops, I did look back a couple of pages. Guess I should have looked further. sorry. Im sure it works JeffH but to me its lso the principal of the thing every time I want to move my copy of the Program to another computer I'll have to ask permission from CL. That doesn't set well. Not to mention what if they go out of buisess. Then your stuck with software you can not use if you get a new machine or your hard drive crashes. Plus I just don't like the idea of shelling out my money for something that will inconvenience me. Of course it is their software and they can do as they see fit but I don't have to buy it. It just seems like they are calling the Poser comunity a bunch of thieves.

Heh...you would be labelled evil like most of the forum then. Been alot of people upset about it. I wasn't thrilled about it myself, but went ahead and ordered anyway. Just hope I do not have troubles when I get it.

Cybermonk, Welcome to the bandwagon my friend. A group of friends and I have boycotted Poser 5 until CL remove the copyprotection. My arguement is pretty much the same as yours, since in the past I have been stung by companies with copyprotection very simular to this (and the only people it caused issues with was the customers, not the warez people). Yes, there are companies out there with this very same copy protection system (3dmax, WindowsXP) however I'm sorry CL is NOT discreet and is NOT Microsoft. CL has more chance of going bankrupt, or just folding their doors then either of those two companies, and if they do - I am sorry I don't believe that CL will give a toss about their customers (None of the companies I have dealt with before have even blinked an eye when the creditors are knocking at their doors). Now I'm seen as evil - but in this regard I'm damn proud of being labelled a sinner if it gets just one person to think twice before forking out their money to a company who introduces a copy protection scheme which they knew full well so many of their FAITHFUL customers didn't want. So - it is nice to have you a part of our evil group of thinkers Cybermonk :) LOL Hugs and best WiNC

Something I have just thought about... which kinda worries me - having done some business law at university (lovely topic)... I have to ask - and maybe I'm wrong - but does it say anywhere in any agreement that you get from CuriousLabs upon buying Poser 5. That if they go bankrupt that they will provide a security override so that you can use their software without an activation serial number? Or has everyone taken CL at their word - which has only been posted on Renderosity? First rule of business - if it isn't in writing - it isn't legal (all the bullshit about code of honor is just that), and is usually bullshit to just 'please' the hungry mob. And anything that CL put on renderosity isn't classed as a legal contract in which binds CL to do what might have been said on CL. The licensed contract is what you read when you install the software, so look in there - does it have any claus explaining what happens in the case that Curious Labs goes under? If they have got it in writing in that contract that in the event that CuriousLabs goes bankrupt or they stop supporting Poser 5 they will supply each valid user of Poser 5 a method of being able to use their software without activation code, then I will stand corrected... If not - ask yourself this one question... do you feel lucky? Remember - to be legal in court - someone saying something on a forum in this website, isn't going to cut the mustard... WiNC

When I registered my copy of Poser 5 on their website, they gave me the whole registration info, including the response code, the authorization code, name etc. Though the codes are very long, I printed out my copy incase a problem occurs (as mentioned above that CL goes bankrupt). I assume that incase I manually need to authorize my copy of Poser 5 (incase I replace my computer etc) this information when inserted manually should do the job. So while I agree with most that these copy protection methods are annoyance for legit users, CL does provide you with the information needed to reinstall the program if need be without having to contact them. You just gotta remember to press the 'Print' button when you first register it :)Hope this helps. Thank you, Wind Walker www.e-prizm.com/blackthorn

Wind, If you replace your computer, your old authorization code will not wok anymore. It is tied to the physical hard drive of your computer, and if you're not using that drive, the code's no good. Phoenix

Yeah what Phoenix says - and if what they have said before is true - if you replace your harddrive you will need a new activation code. Someone might want to format their hard drive and install Poser 5 again and see if it has any problems with that activation code that they have been given. According to some people who have bought the Avater software after a full install you have to get a new activation number again... Which brings me back to the other thing which I am against this activation security system - That CL can monitor each time you install the software - so if you reinstall 100 times and rinstall Poser 5 100 times - you can probably bet CL know you have :) WiNC

Dont buy it. go ahead and make a stand. never mind that for most people it's a piece of cake and nothing more had to be done then register at the website the password transfer hapened automaticly (Though I'm sure you can point out a dozen or so people who didn't have such an easy go of it) the rest of us will be happily fiddling with the new stuff learning to make even better renders. but by all means stick to your convictions if that is your wish:)

Boy, that is really wrong! I had no idea. Its really sad to see a company with so much potential cause unneccessary hassle to the very people who support them. This would certainly affect my future decisions to buy anything from CL and I would be most interested in looking into their competition (if there is one). Its also sad that there doesn't seem to be support for Multi processors or 3d cards. Though this isn't that big an issue, it would have been a nice thing to have. Thank you, Wind Walker

wdupre :) Thanks :) Honestly I hope Poser 5 is great for you - I have to admit there is a number of things I would love to play with, and would certainly find it a interesting addition to my graphic machine - however because of the copy protection I won't buy it :) I do hope CL finally see the negative reaction and change their security features - but I see I'm going to become a old woman with this one thing to tell my grandchildren, "innnn my day, we had to fight aggginst the oppressive busineesss that cough cough cough um.. what was I saying again?" :) I'm really not a evil person - I just like being nasty to companies who I feel are getting too big for their shoes... You should see the love mail I said Microsoft :) giggle WiNC

Even if Curious Labs goes under (which I hope they don't), I think the Poser program is strong enough that someone else would buy the rights to it, and continue the support/ un-lock issues. It survived the transition from MetaCreations. I've bought every version since Poser 1, and I don't feel the activation made me suffer any. CL isn't Adobe or Corel with multiple strong programs to fall back on. This is thier main baby, and if they don't protect it, then they WON'T be around for a Poser 6. It's not a perfect solution, but it's something that has to be done, and you're probably going to be seeing a lot more instances of un-lock codes from other software developers. Like Wdupre said, if you don't like protection scheme, don't buy it. If you forsee having to re-install Poser 5 100 times, as previously mentioned, then you might want to stick to P4.

Um it survived the transition from metaCreations JUST! remember the fear of loosing it, or that Corel was going to buy it and box it... And the point is - I'm perfectly in my right to state my dislike of the security system in CL - wither I buy it or not... I won't buy it - but just because I'm not going to buy it doesn't mean I'm going to get off my soap box and go away quietly with my bottom lip stuck out. I want the damn program - I want to use it - but because of this ONE THING that I am totally against I won't, and I want CL and others to know why, and I want CL to finally back down and say, "Okay - we will do more research and use a security system which isn't going to piss WiNC off" :P Okay selfcentred - yes - but I haven't got a hobby :) And I'm making this one :) At least I smile while complaining :) Sorry Tempus - I stand up for what I believe in - and I believe the CL is going to screw its customers, without wearing protection. Why do I feel this? I don't know - maybe I have been hurt before and this seems very close to what I have seen before, or maybe I just get this vibe that this is going to blow up in our faces. At least me not keeping my mouth shut means other people have the right to pick, and the right to make up their own mind. If people were all to keep quiet, then people wouldn't know there is things people don't like - and we wouldn't have a Democracy... Personally I really hope I'm proven wrong for once... But so far all of my predictions about companies and software 'problems' have come pretty much true in the past.... so time will tell... WiNC

Certainly you are more than welcome to point out what you don't like, and to make a stand against it. Nobody ever said you didn't have the right to speak your mind or voice your opinion. The bottom line, though, is money. For everyone who buys the program, there are a handful of people who want a copy, who are at the very least, detered for a bit. I myself know several people who have no intention of buying it, but are waiting for a copy they can steal. If we're not willing to put up with a little bit of inconvienence, than it's Curious Labs that's going to get screwed without protection, and screwed big time. P4 and Pro Pack have been stolen from them more times then they can count, but that point of view isn't represented with the same zeal that the registration issue is. Absolutely everyone has the right to choose if they will buy the product or not based on the facts. I'm just voicing my opinion as well, which is what the forum is for, isn't it?

Does anyone know if Poser 5 copy protection is portable or if CL will give multiple codes to support people who use multiple machines ie: one at work, laptop on the road, and one at home? 3DMax has used this scheme in their products and it works great. Byce doesn't and it sucks.

Yes, I believe you are allowed to use it on up to 4 machines, as long as you don't run the copies simultaniously. It was spelled out by someone from CL in a previous thread.

WiNC... I think you're great, I love people that speak up and say what they feel, as for my purchase of P5, reading all these posts, I am more afraid of it than excited, just not sure yet if i'll be getting it or not. Between registering, freeze ups, and all the other problems mentioned(lots of problems posted in the past few days), I'm gonna have to wait to see if any patches or updates come out

So this thread sent me to the CL web site in search of the EULA, the horse's mouth. Of course, I couldn't find it -- if it is there it is well hidden. But there is a large faq about the registration process and if I read it correctly it says you can only install Poser 5 three times IN YOUR ENTIRE LIFE and after that you need special dispensation from their service department. It does not mention what you should do if that service department becomes extinct. BTW, in my browsing I also found that once you buy Poser you are stuck with it, assuming that you are an honest person and you adhere to the EULA you agreed to. Seems that the EULA prohibits you from ever selling your copy to someone else (or even giving it away, apparently). CL is agressive about enforcing it and if you try to sell it through an on-line auction site they will have your offer removed. Let me hasten to add that this is not something I experienced, just something I read on CL's web site -- I think I'll be happy playing with P4 at least until P5 SP1 arrives...

Im a rookie.. totally..and I had a hard decision to buy p4.. or P5 (stand alone). I went with P4.. I know about p4 and love it dearly.. P5. That copy protection seems like something that will come to hurt down the road if the company goes away. To that end I agree with WiNC, Its to risky right now and I am happy to wait and see how this settles. I will upgrade once im sure I can use the software I purchase for hundreds of dollars down the road. I want to feel as secure as CL does with their protection format. I agree people ripped off P4 in the past, but, I also want to know for certain I will not be ripped off down the road. I would like to think theres a solution to satisfy everyone in this matter. So, in my rambling sort of way I have to say for now regretfully I am also going to hold off upgrading to P5 after all Im new to P4 anyway and have not even tapped its potential and the tutorials for P4 and the marketplace make it an easy decision for the entry level person such as myself. Preach on WiNC.. at least I dont feel alone in my caution

I can see both sides of this issue.

Yes, a lot of grinning theives are more than happy to steal software - or anything else that isn't nailed down. As a result, software companies are coming up with elaborate copy-protection schemes.

On the other hand, end users like myself are extremely irritated by the hoops that we are being forced to jump through. You pay $$$$$ to a company, and then you feel that you are being treated as a suspect.

I think that once an authorization code is given, it should work for as many repeat installations of the purchased software as a user might need. Yes, let CL have its copy protection, but CL's customers should also be shown some respect.

I belive you can use the same authorization code on the same hard drive if you need to re-install without having to log onto the website. I might be mistaken, though. They could always go the route Lightwave has, and use a dongle key. An added expense, but then you wouldn't have to worry about them going away. The key could be moved around from machine to machine as needed...

Its funny how the Poser 5 manual goes on and on trying to tie licensing agreement of the software to the ownership of a book. They claim that 3 people can't read a book at the sametime, that a single person can read it and thus a single user can use Poser 5. Yet I can give my book to anybody I want, I can also sell it to whomever I want. I can take to my basement and read it there or take to a foreign country and read it there. I can't do the same with Poser 5, I am not sure why CL would mock our intelligence. This is really frustrating, its my fault mostly, I should have read their FAQ on unlocking the software. I was happy with Poser 4's method, I assumed same would be applied here. I upgrade my computer almost every year, I guess 2 years from now, my copy of Poser 5 will be worth crap! I no longer see this as CL trying to protect their product. Its more like CL is trying to protect their product, screw the customer rights. If Curious Labs does go under, I doubt it will be because of pirates ripping off their software because the fact remains, there is no code that can't be broken. It will most likely be because pi$$ed off customers will start looking elsewhere, even if that elsewhere offered a somewhat inferior product. Thank you, Wind Walker

yolkworm you cant sell P4 either. any time it comes up on Ebay CL has it pulled.

Thanks for your support WINC. I agree with you and I have been considering other software like Hash Anmation Master. Plus I still have P4, Rhino3d and Vue4 to use. So its not like Im with out software. Sure Poser 5 is a tempting new toy but its being offered under conditions I don't believe I can accept. Many people keep refering to the financial well being of CL. Why should I be concerned about a company that treats its customers like thieves. If they are not worried about me why should I worry about them. Cybermonk new member of the Evil thinkers club. :)

CyberMonk, Who makes Hash Animation Master, is it a good competitive software when compared to Poser? Thank you, Wind Walker

WW, the major difference is that you can't make reproductions of a book as easily as you can burn a CD. I believe they discussed a while back either adding a dongle key to the product, which would have increased the price, or this method, which was cheaper. Either way would have been fine with me. I've got Lightwave on my desktop at work, and on my laptop, and I have to move the little USB key to whichever one I want to use. Yes, a lot of people were happy with the P4 method, but too many of them had a pirated version. If they go with no protection, and accept the losses from piracy, the price of the package would likely have a huge increase, which would cause even more unhappiness. And as far as I know, there are no other products that do what Poser does, so there's no competition to support (unless you count Character Studio in 3DS Max, and if you don't like CL's protection, you'd better count them out as well.) Aside from no protection at all, what would you be happy with?

Tempus, I don't disagree with a companys effort to protect its product nor am I saying that a company doesn't have the right to protect its product. But somewhere there has to be a line that offers a fair compromise between protecting a product and protecting a customers investment. I don't feel that my investment is secure, for many reasons that have been mentioned above. And lets face it, CL will spend time coming up with painful copy protection schemes and pirates will still get the software. I will end up suffering for their faults. And I am willing to suffer, but not to the point that I can't reinstall my program more than 3 times. The right way to fight against piracy isn't by harrassing your customers, it is by engaging with law enforcement agencies and going after those who sell/offer this product in an unauthorized fashion. And I know its easier said than done but I think frustrating the customers is far worse for a companys reputation and its product. And no, I don't want them to offer no copy protection, just one that is fair and reasonable. I am even willing to pay a little more if I need to given that I feel secure in my purchase. Poser 4 isn't the only software that gets pirated, I am sure there are many others, but this doesn't mean annoying your customer base, that is a counter productive move in my opinion. Thank you, Wind Walker

Question: Im a little unclear - are you required to be net-connected if you want to install Poser 5? I had intended to purchase it and install it on a non-net-connected rendering machine I have set up.

Nowhere does it say you can only install poser 5 three times IN YOUR ENTIRE LIFE!! This protection is set up to avoid people buying Poser 5, and giving it out to 5-10 friends within 3 days of purchase. As shocking as it sounds this happens a lot. Any legitimate re-installs (even up to 20 times) should have no problems. I support everyone's right to an opinion, but it's this kind of sensationalism that's treating CL really unfairly. Kupa and the guys over at CL have shown constant support for the community through it's entire life, and this isn't treating them fairly. be nice. If anyone has a good idea how unlawful re-installs can be avoided I would welcome suggestions for our Product! :) Honestly, I would. Piracy is a big problem for the whole community, especially if it forces us to take measurements that hinder getting licenses set up. Cobalt... No you do not need a network connected machine. You can save a copy of the challenge code/file onto a floppy disk, and send it to CL through e-mail from another computer (whichever one you used to post to the forum!) cheers, -Josh

Attached Link: http://www.hash.com/

I want to first make it know that I totally agree with copy protection of software, warez is a fact of life, but that doesn't mean companies should make it any easier to prevent warez groups from copying their software... However I also want to make it clear right now that if that copy protection in so ways causes issues or possible problems with a paying client - the copy protection is a failure and will do more harm then good. With that in mind - - -

Josh, Firstly, this copy protection will NOT stop warez people - there will be a release of a hack to break this code in a week (I bet!).. Come on do you honestly think this protect is copy proof when Microsoft has had to start bringing in protection which monitors their Microsoft Update site? Discreet also have illegal versions of their software released usually a day or two after they go gold. Probably the only reason there isn't a Poser 5 Warez release already is that I think you guys did your own Production of the Poser 5 CD or it wasn't leaked from the production site... There are many different copy protections out there which could be used - including using the CD as a dongle, or using a hardware Dongle. All of these however still have ways around them, just like your present scheme - however just remember, your present scheme is worrying, and causing issues with a lot of your clients. That means out of all the other options - this should have been the ONE copy protection that should have been avoided... Also there are poser users here who are honest and will not resort to warezing your product if they don't buy it. Remember it is many of these users who are feeling cheated by your protection, and are the ones who are probably more inclined to not by your software... Yes - their might be people out there that buy your software and then share it with their friends. The moment a crack for your software is out the same thing will happen - so please tell me Curious Labs business strategy for this smart idea? Did your company not think it would piss off legit users? Did they think we would forget the agreement we made in regards to Pro Pack not including this type of security? Okay that was a different product, and might have been slightly different protection - but still, CL must know you have artists on here who are totally against this type of thing. You are forcing people to register; you are forcing people to have to go out of their way to send in information to you; you are putting people in a situation that they might have to reactivate with you every time they upgrade certain hardware on their computer. So answer some questions: What about if I reinstall my OS - and then install Poser 5 on another hard-drive in the same computer... do we reactivate then also? Where is it written anywhere in your EULA or on your website that legally you will supply your customers with a process to allow people not to reactivate if your company goes bankrupt? What about all those people out there that DO NOT use internet and DO NOT live in USA? Do they have to call you collect? Mail it in? So every time they might upgrade their hard-drive or computer, these people have to wait, or spent a shit load of money to get responses from you. Or maybe you are doing a Microsoft and forcing people to get the internet to use your product. So if you company is looking out for us - how about you answer the questions which have been put forward, especially customer protection in case your company goes under! WiNC

BTW - Josh I don't really know if you are a member of Curious Labs - it just looked like it - so if you aren't working for them, sorry :) But if you are - sorry :) Honestly i'm just doing my civic duty here... :)

Heya, I'm not from Curious Labs!! (just wanted to say that before reading the rest of the post...) Our software is the Maya plug-in for poser (seperate from CL) back to reading... cheers, -J

I don't think the majority of Poser users have a problem with registration, just a really vocal minority. It's really not a difficult process, and anyone reading this discussion can do it. I think I read that you can fax the code if you have to, and almost every town has a Staples or Office Depot, etc, where you can fax. Kupa wrote a great piece a while back on how Pro Pack was released, and within hours turned up on the net for download. They went without the copy protection and got burned for it. I've seen a few top notch content providers on Renderosity and Daz quit offering items because they were being passed around like cigarettes in prison. I'm sure a crack will turn up somewhere, but at least it's something that people will have to search for, and deal with the possibility of getting virus from a downloaded "crack", so it does serve as a deterent. Burning a CD and jotting down a serial number are just too easy. If you are a legit user, you can re-install it as many times as you need to. Past a normal point, it may be a little inconvienent, but it's not the living hell some people are making it out to be. My Poser runtime folder is almost 6 gigs, so I want to do as few installs as possible. If you have a hard drive that needs to be re-done that often, then Poser should be the least of your worries. You should at least be happy that the folks from CL are listening to you and interacting. You think Microsoft would give you this kind of attention? Schemes for the protection of digital copyright are still in the infancy stage, and will continue to evlove, but it's not going to go away...

Hi WiNC, Heya, great post! :) I think the talks like this are great when we can go over issues like this well. I just get upset when I see some posters shoot from the hip and start saying things that ain't true, or inflamatory. Especially when the guys at CL have always shown how much they care about the community. and I'm glad that people are out there concerned for peoples rights in general... I'm one of them too! Honestly, I think this is great, your comments here are right on the money, you're right there are a lot of cases where it's not easy/cheap for people to get license keys if they are not connected to the internet. (for a laugh I just had a picture of a tibetan monk with a computer :) lol ). On the other hand we have to take a look at the options from CL's side. Warez is out there, but a lot of the time it is very hard to download warez for a full app (1200mb) like poser. Especially since you really need the content for the program. A problem which is just as big is just "sharing" the already present CD... onto the topic of the good suggestions!!! I like the idea of a hardware dongle option! these usually are not used for lower cost software since the dongle itself is about $30-$40. that's not a problem if the software is $3000, but if it's only $300 that's another story! do you think that CL should make a Dongle option available for users who want it? it would probably have to cost $30-$40 for the option (they should probably leave the lower software-protected price as well for those who want it cheaper...) what do you think? cheers! -Josh

Tempus Fugit, "I don't think the majority of Poser users have a problem with registration" I know six people who now have Poser 5 - two are close friends, and they had issues getting activation. In my book any problem caused a customer is a problem - either small or large, a customer expects a bug free and working copy of software they have bought. If a program causes a problem - in my book it is a failed piece of software because it hasn't delievered what is expected. I am learning programming, and the first thing we are taught is that any software that causes a customer a problem is a failure... I think there are a lot of companies out there that should start thinking like that too.. CL included.. And lets correct your reinstall thing here shall we... You can reinstall on the same harddrive as many times as you want to - as long as you don't change anything on your computer, or install your Poser 5 to another hard drive you are fine. As long as CL don't go bankrupt and you don't need a new activation code, everything will be fine... Again I am presenting an opinion which states that there are dangers which people should know about before they buy software with this type of copy protection - and that this copyprotection will NOT protect CL from warez, just delay it a little... so again - why upset your client base over something one has little control over? Now something else I want to establish here - I'm sorry all you people using Poser 4 and Poser 5 on more then one computer - sorry I am not supporting you guys. I do NOT agree with the use of software on multiple computers unless you buy a secondary licese or unless the EULA states you can. My fight is for those people who have hard drive issues, who upgrade, who don't have internet, who are the tibetan monk with a computer :) And the general principle of forced registration! I don't want CL to know I live in New Zealand at 1983 Hitlon Street and my phone number is 62-4-2345432 (had yea :P)

"If a program causes a problem - in my book it is a failed piece of software because it hasn't delievered what is expected. I am learning programming, and the first thing we are taught is that any software that causes a customer a problem is a failure..." LOL, then the entire computer industry must be a failure, because it's caused me nothing but problems... :) but once again, "onto the topic of the good suggestions!!! I like the idea of a hardware dongle option! these usually are not used for lower cost software since the dongle itself is about $30-$40. that's not a problem if the software is $3000, but if it's only $300 that's another story! do you think that CL should make a Dongle option available for users who want it? it would probably have to cost $30-$40 for the option (they should probably leave the lower software-protected price as well for those who want it cheaper...) what do you think? " -J

Josh, Thanks for your comments - I am trying very hard to not shoot from the hip and just present information which is true (or my honest opinion of the situation). The questions are the main ones which continue to come up and I have never seen a answer for, and nor does anyone at CL seem to want to answer. And while these questions stay unanswered I will continue to be a active voice against their new protection scheme. IF CL come back with a Legal document which states they will protect their members if they go bankrupt - and a way to protect their none Internet cliental from having to jump through hoops, I will back off. I don't believe in forced registration, and I will continue to fight against this type of thing, but my issue here is about those people who could and might get screwed by this protection scheme. Yes warez is out there - and I feel for any company trying to battle against this. As a budding programmer myself (and moving into Internet Programming for Webpages) I totally understand the issues arond copyright and warez. However... ANY software or hardware protection that causes the user problems, or could present problems to the final-user is a FAILED copyprotection! Warez does your company harm... upsetting your client base puts your company out of business. Word of mouth is a powerful tool, and like most people - they are more likely to attack the software for its faults before praise it for its glory... Personally - if they presented a hardware dongle version in which you could use the hardware dongle - I would spend the extra amount of money for piece of mind and security. I personally would rather see a Safedisc type protection on the CD which would prevent most amatuer copies from being made (ie - a 1 to 1 copy on Safedisc Ver 2 is pretty hard to pull off - though again it can be). Personally I never know if I will loose internet tomorrow - or if the worst happens and my harddrive just stops working... remember everyone - a hard drive only has a estimate of 3 years before it can start faulting. In the last two years I have changed my harddrives at least 8 times - mainly because I have needed more harddrive space. Poser 4 has been on three different harddrives in my computer over the last year, mainly because I change the way I lay out things. Again - does my activation need to be sent in everytime I reinstall on a differen't harddrive? Who knows - CL arn't answering :P At least with a hardware dongle you are protected from reactivation, and from CL going Bankrupt. No matter where you use it - that dongle means it will be activated. Even a CD dongle protects you - which is why most games are only using Activation keys for online playing, and not for their main software... But again remember there are ways around hardware Dongles just as easy as the activation code method also. And there are a number of other types of copy protection out there - including and not limited to Serial Number protection on their website, so that if you go to download SP1 you need to include your serial number (this usually stops a lot of people because they are too scared of being caught :P). You could use a security system which has false checks, which causes most warez people to give up after the third or forth false security check (I believe it is MacroMedia or one of those companies who used that). Or you can do what may companies do and produce a avid community from your own homesite, which only benefits those who have bought the software (serial number, and activation code can be checked) which forces people to buy their software to take advantage of their community. Prime example of this is Macromedia, and certain smaller companies making shareware. I don't know all the protections and schemes - but ANY of the ones above would have given just as much protection as the Activation Code scheme - and wouldn't have pissed off people like me :) And now my hardline view on registeration: The thing is - I don't think CL will change their minds about this protection scheme. Each company wants a client base, each company wants to know where their software is going, and each company wants people to register. This software protection isn't protection - more a means to force people to register their software and present CL with a client database. And one has to ask why? Why is it that important that you know my address? Why is it that important you know my full name? Why is it that important that you know my phone number? I could shoot from the hip here and give some of my own reasons I believe these are important - however I will leave the speculation up to you people :) WiNC

Josh, "LOL, then the entire computer industry must be a failure, because it's caused me nothing but problems..." Tell me about it :P If you get the amount of games I do (I do reviews for some online and NZ magaines) you really start to see how many failures are out their now days. Just look at Pool of Radiance 2... sigh - a great project ruined by the fact that you could only install it on C: drive :) and that it crashed on almost every system that had a video card :)

"Thanks for your comments - I am trying very hard to not shoot from the hip and just present information which is true (or my honest opinion of the situation)" It shows, and I'm glad conversations are going down this path. :) "Yes warez is out there - and I feel for any company trying to battle against this. As a budding programmer myself (and moving into Internet Programming for Webpages) I totally understand the issues arond copyright and warez. However... ANY software or hardware protection that causes the user problems, or could present problems to the final-user is a FAILED copyprotection!" I can't totally agree with this. Every protection scheme causes some level of inconvenience that could be perceived as a "problem". Even if it's just "hey I broke my CD!" or "I lost the paper with the code!". I've got to agree with Tempus (who also had an excellent post) that the majority of cases seem to be that the registration is working fine. Not to ignore the cases where it doesn't!! but the majority is going fine. "Personally - if they presented a hardware dongle version in which you could use the hardware dongle - I would spend the extra amount of money for piece of mind and security. I personally would rather see a Safedisc type protection on the CD which would prevent most amatuer copies from being made (ie - a 1 to 1 copy on Safedisc Ver 2 is pretty hard to pull off - though again it can be)." I think yuou should start a thread about them offering a hardware dongle, even understanding about the extra cost. It's your suggestion so I don't want to steal the thunder, but it's definitely an important topic, and should be brought up in it's own thread. It sounds like a great compromise, and could really be a solution. The thing to remeber is like Tempus said... "the folks from CL are listening to you and interacting." which is a great thing. If we can support that with good ideas, I'm sure we can get results. cheers! -Josh

Another thing that wasn't even mentioned here yet is that in the EULA, CL can terminate the license for ANY reason. It specifically says: "Company reserves the right to terminate this EULA at any time for any reason at Company's sole discretion. Upon termination, you must immediately return both Program and Documentation to Company along with all copies, modification and merged portions in any form. Termination of this EULA for any reason in no way limits Company's right to contine enforcing all rights provided by law and does not entitle you to a refund of your license fee except as provided herein." In other words CL can terminate your license at any time for any reason (like if they don't like a render you post here - that is a reason after all, maybe not a good reason, but it could still be considered a "reason" - or if you have to call them up if you have trouble reinstalling the program because of their stupid registration scheme and have to call them up. According to this EULA, they can instead of giving you a new registration code, terminate your license on the spot (and not even have to give your money back!). Like a book my @$$. Last time I checked, when I bought a book I didn't have to give the author or publisher my name and address and phone number before I was allowed to start reading it. Last time I checked if I had a book I was allowed to sell it or lend it to someone if I chose to. Last time I checked, the author or publisher of a book couldn't force me to return the book to them. Until Curious Labs gets off their high horse and gets rid of this forced registration thing and changes the EULA to something reasonable, I will not be buying P5. Period. I would spend days figuring out all the file formats and writing my own version before I agree to that EULA. It has been shown over and over again that if someone is determined to pirate a piece of software, they will succeed in doing so no matter what protections are in place. The people who suffer are the honest users. Right now I say Curious Labs can rot. If enough people feel the same way I do and refuse to buy it and CL goes under, then so be it. It would be a shame to lose a good program like that, but maybe other companies would learn a lesson or two about pissing off their paying customers.

Um Josh - if you break your CD then in most cases if you have a serial number or the original CD they replace it :) Yes SecureCD has caused issues though this isn't really the fault of the protection scheme - more that some CDRoms were designed outside specifications which prevented the reading of the sectors where the protection is located. Usually firmware upgrades of those CDRoms - or new CDRoms fixed those problems. Again that isn't the Protection Scheme's problem, it was because a few hardware companies skipped corners. And losing a serial number on a piece of paper isn't the companies fault also - so in essence those are good security messures, because (bar user stupidity) the user is protected in case the company falls over. HOWEVER - this Activation Scheme doesn't need to be stuffed up by the user for the end-user to be out of pocket. The company can stuff something up which will prevent the end-user being able to use their product. If they go Bankrupt and there is no means for the end-user to get activation for their software, the User is out of money because of the company and the Protection Scheme - not because of their own 'stupidity'... That is my specification of a failed protection scheme and a correct protection scheme. As for doing a new thread... I can all but try - but I think CL just ignores me hoping I will diappear and give up :) (ignore the silly woman - maybe she will give up and get bored and do something else :P)

LOL, yeah maybe the break-cd wasn't the best :) but the point is.. it is a problem! just wanted to point out that problems can crop up in all schemes (not saying that some arn't more fraught than others). "As for doing a new thread... I can all but try - but I think CL just ignores me hoping I will diappear and give up :)" lol, yeah sometimes criticism feels like an attack... sooo what in the early messages could possibly seem like an attack! (playing innocent) :) It's always a challenge for all of us in a community to work to a solution together, and we're looking at this thread for our own software. I think a good thread with a positive spin towards a solution of a hardware dongle would be a very cool thing. Let them know that it's wanted, and how much you'd be willing to cover the x-tra cost. I'm looking forward to the conversation! best, -Josh

Josh, Just to set the record straight, I wrote "...you can only install Poser 5 three times IN YOUR ENTIRE LIFE and after that you need special dispensation from their service department." I did not make this up. Here is the relevant portion of the FAQ from CL's web site: "How many times can I contact Curious Labs for a new Response Code? We currently permit three unique Response Code keys to be generated for your serial number of Poser 5. In most normal circumstances our service department will allow additional keys to be generated. You will need to contact our service department for additional keys. What happens if I need more than the allowed number of registrations? If you applying for a fourth or greater new Response Code key, you will be informed that you have exceeded the maximum number of allowed installations. If you need additional Response Code keys you should send your request to our service department via email or fax. It will be helpful for you to describe your reasons for requesting additional Response Code keys. It is Curious Labs policy to permit our legitimate customers to use our products to their full potential. You may be asked to confirm your registration information to confirm your identity." --- Also, I think, given the choice between the current protection scheme & a dongle, I would opt for the dongle. Easy to use & makes me feel comfortable, plus I'm not forced to give personal information to CL without compensation. Additional cost is worth the peace of mind. Animation Master insists that you insert the CD, like a game, and half of the time the program would say that the CD was not in when it was. Rebooting solved it, but what a pain, so I don't like the idea of CD keying.

CyberMonk, Thanks for the link, I will look into it. WiNC, You are doing a great job and you point out the obivious as well as the reasonable arguments to this whole problem. Keep up the good work :) Thank you, Wind Walker

Josh, Sorry - jsut because a user is an idiot does't mean the protection scheme is faulty - just means the user is a idiot :) Someone loosing their CD, breaking their CD, or anything else isn't the same as the protection in which CL is forcing down our thoarts with this release. WindWalker - thanks - :) Also has anyone got the EULA for Poser 5 - I can't find it anywhere and I really want to have a very clear look at that because if dragon1 is correct CL have more then enough rights to turn around and cancel your software license just because you say something deflamnatry towards them... I don't know how it would hold up in court, but we are pretty much all hobbiests here, how many of us can take CL to court if they screw us?

Hi WiNC Chapter 2 starts with the Installation of Poser 5 and the second paragraph goes into the EULA. This continues for 6 pages. Dragon1 is absolutely right, CL can at anytime cancel the license at which point the user is expected to return the documentation and software to CL. And the EULA continues to say that CL is in no way responsible for refunding the money if you have opened the software package. I would scan the EULA and post it for you but I am sure the hound dogs from CL would pretty much hunt me down for posting from their manual. I am sorry, I am kinda ticked off after reading the entire EULA. WW

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