I filled out their little form on their technical support contact page, posing a simple question about the 'Hair' room, namely, "what settings should produce short, curly hair?"

Now, for those of you who have been there, nothing on the tech support site says you must fill in all of the details of your technical schema to receive an answer. At least I saw nothing like that, but I went ahead and did so anyway.

Somehow, having received something in the way of a question from me, they replied to me, saying that I had to fill in the form to get an answer to my question.

Okay, I can't see how my system's technical specifics figure into my question, not when I first sent it in, nor when I posted the question a second time, after giving them, again, the particulars of my setup.

So, satisfied that he had made me do these things, the same fellow replies to my re-posted question by saying that they don't answer questions like that. Somehow, I suspect that he knew what the answer would be before I resubmitted my question.

I like Poser, and I have used it since version two. I still believe it has great brochure performance, substantially unrealized, but how can a company treat its customers like this and hope to survive?

What does the Poser community think of Curious Labs?

Ooh, Fyre-chan's gonna get flamed. ::dons abestos suit:: Bring it on. The Poser community seems to think that they are divine beings who "cannot possibly make mistakes, so the error must be yours. Yeah." (Cyber-cookies to the first person who can correctly ID that quote.) What do I think of them? Less than ideal, more than... what's the opposite of ideal? Anti-ideal? They come in here and chat up the regs, which is good PR. However, their stories don't always add up. Poser 5 was going to be built from scratch. Obviously not. They've had an extensive beta testing period, but in May or June when someone found something claiming to be a Poser 5 beta on a P2P, they swore there were no external betas yet. (How long did they say Nefti had been playing with the hair room, or is she not external? I dunno.) Even more things they didn't say outright, but insintuated -- such as how the face room, morph putty, and some other features in Poser5 would work. Nothing big, nothing major, possibly even things I've just misunderstood, but enough of them to set off the little bell in the back of my head. I'm not saying they've lied, I'm just saying that I speak a different language than they do (which isn't that surprising, since true Fyrese is pretty rare.) So, what do I think in general? I think they're a company with good PR in some instances (apparently not tech support) but poor business practice overall, as demonstrated by the several months Kupas said they had to go without pay, the fact that Poser 5 was released in it's widely-disappointing state due to a "ship or die" situation, and the registration method that was put in the program despite previous evidence that it was disproportionately hated by their target audience. Unless something changes, I expect them to be out of business by January 2004. But that's just me, and I'm sure my opinions have just made many people mad. Maybe Kupa himself will yell at me, but I doubt I'm that important.

Yes, the support person probably didn't have to make you send in the extra details. But I've always thought of tech support as a source of info for things such as bugs, hardware and software conflicts, etc. I don't really think it is their job to teach users how to use the software unless it involves a procedure not covered in the documentation. (mind you, not having P5 I have no idea what th emanual is like...) That's what makes sites such as Renderosity so useful, not to mention the number of "how-to" books sure to follow. - Jack

Your question is not a tech support question. Your question is one of technique.

FyreSpiryt...thank you for your honest and up front stance Actually seems the whole commnunity kisses Curious labs, Daz and rosities butt, do they ever stop to think it's their own money they are spending? The butt kissing should be the other way around

"Unless something changes, I expect them to be out of business by January 2004. " If they last that long.

jval is right. That question is a "How To" question - a training issue question, not a technical support issue. I'm a bit surprised that they requested you to fill out system specs instead of just informing you that your question really isn't a tech support question. It's a waste of their time and yours. I think CL tried too hard to WOW us instead of going for solid progress. I suspect that their ill-fated Avatar lab was partly to blame for this - it took a lot of time away from P5 development with disappointing results. (I never did figure out why they thought it would catch on. The web is still to slow for 3D avatars to work. Some of us still remember the VRML silliness.) If they can put a decent patch out so I can use P5 soon, I'll be happy. The P5 content - new characters and clothing, still made P5 it worthwhile, but I will be very disappointed if I have to go back to P4 because P5 crashes so much. Here's hoping!

The manual is full of examples of techniques rather than correction of errors; my question was an example of an application of the software that the manual did not cover. Who better to explain how the product works than the people who wrote, sold and profited from it?

Hi Talisman,

If the manual is full of technique examples that's about the best one should expect. Often software publishers will also maintain a "tutorial" site for their users such as DAZ has done with their recent acquisition of the former Poser Arcana site. Those are the ones who go the extra mile for their customers, not to mention that it is good business and marketing.

I'm not trying to start an argument but when was the last time the salesperson sent you to driving school when you bought the car? The microwave you purchased may have included a small recipe pamphlet but it's a safe bet the manufacturer doesn't have a cordon bleu chef working on the service telephones. If the software manual explains the procedural workings of a program's features then it has done its job.

Who better to explain how the product works than the people who wrote, sold and profited from it?

Experts, meaning knowledgable users or developers, are not necessarily good teachers. That's yet another skill. And while CL has hopefully profited from P5 sales the program price is hardly enough to also include personalized, one on one instruction. That's the way it is in any "manufacturing" industry. If you look at some of the software courses that are offered, it is not at all unusual for the course to cost more than the actual software it is teaching. There is no such things as a "freeway"- it all costs.

Now a previous poster to this thread might dismiss me as "sucking up" to CL. But I'm not. In the past I have defended CL and DAZ whenever I felt that they were being treated unfairly- just as I have done for individuals also. My other recent postings re P5 are proof enough that I am not one of CL's idle worshipers. But in this instance I really think your expectation is unreasonable. After all, it's called "Technical Support", not "Educational Support".

A manual should be expected to explain how the various features work. It is up to the user to make practical use of these features once their operation is understood. When the manual includes tutorial information as well it's a bonus, not an obligation. Of course, if you followed manual instructions precisely and it failed to give you the proper result that would be another story and should be addressed by customer support.

• Jack Valero

and i am serious

Talisman, I think I once got the same tech support guy once too, back when I had P4. Ben

It was always the case with Fractal and Metacreations to only answer questions about software glitches, failures and instabilities. They would always tell you when you called them up that they couldn't answer questions of technique. Maybe everyone wasn't aware of that. So Curious has the same policy. It just means they won't be reading the manual to us. For questions like that, you have to ask fellow users. The less time Curious spends reading the manual to us, the more time they have to manage the bug fixes. To be honest, they're probably so short of cash right now, they can't afford as many techs as they need.

But also, in defense of Curious Labs, when I bought Poser 4, after receiving it, it said it included a certain bonus program, which was not on the content CD. After writing them, and asking if it was on the CD, a lady at CL sent me another Content CD for free, that included the program! Ben

""I'm not trying to start an argument but when was the last time the salesperson sent you to driving school when you bought the car""" You oblivious have never bought a Cadillac!!! Well we bought our first this year when the Sporty CTS hit the show rooms. Yes they teach you to drive it, and their service is 100% Wow-wow. If you take it in for anything, you get a loaner till the work is done. They back up the product all the way. Yes and they make them right here in Michigan. My husband always wanted one and when this new car came out. I said go for it. I use to think Curious had the best support, but it seems to me, they took our money and ran.-I want the damn patch for this program. It's unfit to even use it like it is.

Yep...I'm back to using Poser 4...can't take the craziness already....the last straw was reading the P5 woman body morph work around on this thread: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=882529 maybe if it was 1 or 2 steps shorter...but not this many...yeah right.

You oblivious have never bought a Cadillac!!! No, I haven't- haven't had a car in years so I guess I am "oblivious". But I spent about four times that on our cruising sailboat and they sure weren't interested in teaching me to sail... If you mean that if I don't know how to drive and in buying a Cadillac they will teach me then I am impressed. But I suspect you will agree that this is the exception rather than the rule. On the other hand, if CL charged $30,000+ for P5 then I would expect them to teach me how to use it (grin). - Jack

Dirk, you don't want to kiss CL, DAZ and Osity butt? That's fine. Try getting help from MS. You can pay by the hour. An hour of their time is like 15 hours of your wage after taxes. Osity has been a godsend in communicating with others and getting links to tuts and freestuff that fixes certain things with models. I think Osity ought to have some butt kissing. It costs me nothing to be a memeber here and read threads on techniques and tips. Imagine buying a Shams Mortier book for the big bucks and then throwing up at the thought that you could have been more satisfied with a really good lobster dinner. Get with the program. We have a good thing going here. Take advantage of it. By the way, you have a web site up with some tuts? I do. Granted they are silly tuts, there are people who learn from them. Dave So, look, we all know you are disgruntled. Software refunds for CL are the same as everyhere. Once you open it you own it. That's all there is to it. If it trashes your system, too bad. The software industry will not suffer from people who buy, install, and refund any more. Better to punish the innocent than take it in the shorts from the immoral. That's the age we live in. Knowing that, beware when you buy. Don't buy a first run anything. Wait to see what the reviews and patches are. If you want the excitement of being the first person on the block with a color TV set, then so be it. If you want quality then wait until quality has a track record. Folks, I posted a thread asking about texture and face room questions. I got flamed. that's a shame cuz I really thougth someone would have a work around. Guess what I posted were real bugs. So I'll sit back and wait for the patch (bryce was the same way, before the patch B5 had some serious issues). And I'll direct my training questions here. oh, one last thing. Training videos for LW, Maya, and Max are very expensive. Don't expect to get that for free from CL, they have other things to do. Sorry, don't mean to be so harsh, but I'm a bit disappointed at the ranting against CL and the flaming that I've gotten here for asking questions. Guess the pro CL flamers didn't read my tribute to Kupa post.

Why is it that some people no matter what the thread is about use it as an excuse to slam Microsoft? lol Marque

Imagine buying a Shams Mortier book for the big bucks...<< Has anyone paid any attention to the way this dude spelles his first name and what it means? and, no it's not the galic version of Samuel, that's spelled 'Shamus' A sham is a fake, a substitute for the real thing. Look up 'sham' in the dictionary and it will give you more definations. >> Why is it that some people no matter what the thread is about use it as an excuse to slam Microsoft?<< Maybe it's becausing the are so deserving of being bashed? there are several whole sites that are full of M$ tsupport horror stories.

Talisman, when I tried to fill in the form for support on the website, it doesn't seem to allow you to send the form without the required fields (namely RAM, HD, Video, etc.) here's the auromated response directly from the web page. here's the automated response: You failed to fill in the form correctly "Operating Systems" is a required field, please write something into that field. "Your computer specs (RAM, HD, Video, peripherals)" is a required field, please write something into that field. "Poser or Avatar Lab Serial Number" is a required field, please write something into that field. "Subject" is a required field, please write something into that field. you said that you first filled out this form without entering the hardware field, when I tried this it wouldn't let me submit at all. did you send an e-mail directly to the support person?

I use to think Curious had the best support, but it seems to me, they took our money and ran.-I want the damn patch for this program. It's unfit to even use it like it is.
Having spent 10+ years as an imaging producer for a prominent major market radio statio I wholeheartedly agree with the above statement. "The customer is always right" is still the paradigm that most successful companies adhere to. Simple advice: fix the software so we can all use the product...please!

"The customer is always right" is still the paradigm that most successful companies adhere to. Simple advice: fix the software so we can all use the product...please! -Lapis Hi Lapis! CL is already working on the patch, I know that I've already been in touch with them about a few things I'd like to see improved in the face room. cheers! -J "they took our money and ran.-" lol, not true... they're going to get a patch out damned fast. I know companies that go months without putting out a patch, and CL's jumped right on it.

I do believe FyreSpiryt said it all and sank that nail right on home ... Some of these threads are so amusing if, for nothing else, to follow those here who would support CL even if they had shipped and empty P5 box to their doorstep :-)

EricofSD.... P5 is the first out of the shoot product I've purchased for this very reason...in probably 2 or 3 years. I actually thought we would get a good working product from CL...Poser has been at least useable in the past. I expected a couple of bugs...but not to the extent it is...plus the rush out the door to get the cash flow going, there's some stuff that has happened with this release that shouldn't have..period.....Yes, I'm disgruntled. Back on the original topic...I have sent CL 3 direct tech support requests....let alone the bug reports....most of the email I've sent has bounced, I received 1 acknowledgement that a support question was sent, and thats about it....I will give them the point they are probably overwhelmed with email anyway.

About four years ago I bought a Dell computer because of their highly touted tech support. I was a total neophyte with computers...they actually terrified me. I managed to screw that thing up in everyway possible the first 18 months. I can't count the times Dell helped me reformat. I am surprised they didn't put a separate tech person in just for me. Never cost me a dime and the support was incredible. I have sold 5 dell computers just by my high praise. I bought another one this year geared for the 3d apps. Had some problems.....they came out and replaced the motherboard...no problem. My point is that dell is the best damn computer company in the world (in my opinion). They set the model for good business. Curious labs would do well to follow a successful business model. Dell takes damn good care of it's customers......and sells 5000 computers a day!

Agreed on DELL....I bought 3 Dell systems in about a year..had the same cudtomer service. The guy actually stayed on the phone during an entire reformat/os install to make sure everything was up and running...stepped me through the entire proceedure. Even in times of crisis, customer service is a companies savior. Ease your customers along, by all means respond to their problems...answer their phone calls and emails...and I think honesty is very important...own up to your mistakes and problems...most customers will be very forgiving and allow you the opportunity to make corrections. Unfortunately, as has been discussed here at Renderosity more than once, there are some very blind followers of CL, and a lot of people that accept being screwed over by software companies...which accounts for the continued release of buggy software, poor customer service, and so forth

Yup, without good support a company is pretty much useless and its amazing how forgiving people are when they are responded to and kept in the loop. While its true that some people complain just to hear themselves talk...such is human nature, there are times when complaints are valid and detrimental to a companies/products growth...without feedback products will never improve and without support a company will have no products...

As annoyed as I am by the bugs, I will admit that I did get a decent response from CL stating that they are looking into the matter. I tried a few things on my own to see if it would help the situation, make it worse, or have no effect. (It ended up being all 3 at the same time, go figure.) I e-mailed the update and got an e-mail that day thanking me for the additional information. Considering how swamped they are right now, I think the thank you was a nice touch. Obviously I'd prefer to have the frickin' program working, but the thank you note helped mollify me slightly. And the Cadillac dealership may teach you how to drive, but what about the Ford dealership? There's a small difference between the two - like price. Poser is a not a Cadillac program. I just want to get it above a Yugo.

I've actually gotten a personal response from kupa...which is beyond the ordinary...actually one in a thread, and one in IM....so I know they are doing something and responding...but no feedback from support....it may be that none of my emails other than one which I got an autoreply from even got to them...I do understand the fact they are very busy. Perhaps my real frustration is the fact I went against my normal philosophy of not buying a product when it is first released, and got burned. It will never happen again.

...I went against my normal philosophy of not buying a product when it is first released, and got burned. It will never happen again. Oh I don't know... it works sometimes. In a sense I got my wife as a first release. 33 years later I am still well satisfied even though there has not been a single upgrade. Smile... - Jack

There's no excuse for being rude. A simple "Please look at the settings on the Neftis Curly hair that ships with P5" would have been a lot better answer. One thing though. Customer support is often contracted out to another company. Here in Portland there are 3 tech suppport service companies that I know of who do help desk stuff for at least 7 or 8 companies each. Their people are paid squat, they're treated like trash, they recieve little or no training. A company that uses a service like this often just forgets to monitor user satisfaction, foolishly trusting their agreements. I don't know if CL uses one. I hope not.

I sent in a tech support question on how to get the Toon node to work. The first response I got back was that the materials room was complex (gee, big surprise there) and that getting a particular effect was difficult. I sent another email explaining that I was just trying to get any effect from the Toon node but that I had no idea where to plug it in. I got back a reply with instructions. Was that a tech support question? Yes. If the Poser 5 manual had explained how to use the Toon node then I could understand getting a reply that pointed me to that section of the manual. As it is, however, the manual barely states that the Toon node even exists. So, while the "how do I do this" sort of questions are clearly in the training area, they also far under the tech support area because the manual does very little in terms of training users how to user Poser 5. Think of it as tech support for the manual. Either way, these basic "where do I start" types of questions are perfectly valid things to send to Curious Labs after looking through the manual and finding no answers. Tech support, QA and documentation should be working together on things like training users, putting together tutorials and tracking bugs. This is a major area of weakness for Curious Labs right now.

Seems to me that with so many adept and altruistic people here, questions like Talisman's might be better answered in these forums than by the understaffed, overworked CL. I'm not an apologist, just a realist. Community tutorials and discussions have helped me WAY more than any manual or tech support with any number of apps and games. We have us, best dang resource in the world. Besides, sometimes when I see a question I can't answer, I go try to figure it out on my own and actually learn something useful. There's also the fact that quite frequently, users discover possiblities and workarounds that manufacturers don't. There are, what, eight people at Curious Labs ... and how many registered Renderosity participants? Sorry, I don't own P5 yet, can't help Talisman ... can someone else here?

I keep reading comments that CL let their programmers go, etc but I guess I missed the original posting. Really, EIGHT PEOPLE??! If this is true it goes a long way towards explaining things I suppose... - Jack

In the P5 manual's credits page it list 30 people from CL that contrib'd to the development. EGISYS AG had the content and development teams. Everyone that had something to do with creating P5 has their name listed on that page. So there's all the 'guilty parties' for all you that want heads, but going after them heads is gonna involve a bit of travel since some them are in the far east :-)