Okay...got home from my "merry 'lil christmas" with the clown. My business is doing a bit better, and was looking in this forum, when, I came across another PWFW update notice. Since, finances are a bit better...whew...sigh...I decided to go to PWFW and sign up as a subscriber. I loved the old one, dontcha know? What I see in this forum is some wonderfully textured stuff. Beautiful, like the old stuff that I could just look at with only the internet eye popup between me and each group of stuff. Bah, humbug!!! I got 3 to 4 popups...all of a "credit card" or, "check your credit, now" nature for each link i clicked. (Yes, i did double check...No, i was not at a warez site.) What I did see of the site, between popups was a very, very, very basic html site. No frills, nothing pretty. Even the colors were just basic...all links, simply centered. And, I think, recollecting, the downloads took a huge long time at the old PWFW. That is one of the reasons we were given...bandwidth...for the new "pay" site. Guess what???? I did download their "alley"...one of the "freebies". It took about 30 minutes for a couple of mbs. I miss the old one...pwfw...with actual stuff we could look at while being bogged down by the server. I ventured there, tonight, with every good christmas intention of signing up. Nope, not anymore. IMHO....even with the wonderful looking stuff....It is badly designed site. I thought they were gonna have a T1 server...guess not. That site reminded me of something out of the eighties...or, in warezland. Pop...Pop...Poppi!!!! And, to all a good night.

okay, i'll take the bait!!! i'm not usually one to jump into these types of discussions, but i feel very inclined to speak up....i can't BELIEVE that you are complaining about PWFW!!! and what's almost funny is, you're comparing them to a warez site....do you frequent those or something?? i am a new member of PWFW and it is the best money i've spent on my poser hobby to date! who gives a crap about the site design...you're not paying for SITE DESIGN...you're paying for the high quality poser products! what is happening here at renderosity...people are complaining left and right about EVERYTHANGG!!!!! :o((((

just for any interested parties....if you subscribe to PWFW, there are no popups! ;o)

Then, why is the ad for those of us who would like to sign-up so horrible? I just wanted to go there, pay my money on the line, and enjoy...I loved the old poser world. please, try going to www.poserworld.com...and, see how much YOU love the site. LOLOL...and, was lookin' to get rid of some of my money, tonight.

OK, it almost sounds like the original message is a "troll message," designed to get people all excited. Let me take the bait, briefly. The free site shows a preview of the many wonderful items on the Pay site. But the layout and performance of the free site are not an accurate indication of what you see on the subscription site. The pay site is much better, both in design and performance. Now if you are truly interested in the facts, do a bit of digging in the Poser forum here. A few weeks ago I was considering a subscription to Poserworld, based on the recommendations of some people whose opinions I trust (Doug Sturk for one). I asked some extensive questions, and every concern was answered, in a very comprehensive fashion, by Steve & Rena. That is why I joined Poserworld as soon as I had the funds. Now since I joined Poserworld, Steve and Rena have shown their dedication to Customer Service and the quality of the web site and its contents. I am most pleased with their work and heartily recommend Poserworld to all who ask. If you want to see for yourself, do a search for the thread on Poserworld that I was involved in. If this is indeed a Troll message, others will at least see the positive recommendations, and go ahead and suscribe. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

well, www.poserworld.com does have a lot of banners, etc....but their SUBSCRIPTION site doesn't!!!! i promise you...it is money well spent! LOL @ actually LOOKING to get rid of money....ummmm, i'll take some off your hands, you know....to LIGHTEN the load a little....always looking to do my part...lol ;o)

No...I don't have time to "troll". I just had a little extra cash, in the end of this year, and wanted to sign up. I loved the old PWFW so very, very much. What I have seen from their promos in this forum was most promising. Then, I went to sign up for a year, and most likely a cd or two. I feel no need to apologize, here. Image is what sells...that's why my year didn't completely bomb after 9-11. Convenience, sells, also. That site...IMHO..was BAD. And, I am not sorry for speaking my mind. I work very hard for my daily beer money. Details count, in all aspects of our lives. I had no quarrel with steve and rena....I just was gonna spend a little money at their site, when i got turned off. posting this, at least, can give them a "heads up", as i could not find an email link at the site i visited. Pop...Pop...Poppi!!!

I'm having trouble understanding why the site layout and asthetics are more important than the products offered. Steve and Rena work very hard and do a great job and the things that they offer on the membership site are far above many of the things you'll find anywhere. It's a very user freindly site and what's great is that they don't only offer brand new items on a regular basis, but the contents of all their CD's are there for download, so you can get any of the old things you used to be able to get on the old site. Poppi, don't let the lack of glitz and sparkle turn you away from a top-notch site. Actually, it's a very classy looking site. You've probably heard the term "Less is more." Well, they've done a very expert job putting the site together. Many sites I've been to are way too busy with page layout and have too many silly doo-dads like buttons, dividers, sound effects, Java, and Flash just to make the sites look fancy. Look for the offerings on the site, not the asthetics of the site itself. That's superficial. You're really cheating yourself by not subscribing. I love my membership and I intend to renew when it expires. Steve and Rena are great contributers of Poser stuff. Give them another chance, you won't regret it. Melanie

Poppi, Do you understand that the Subscription site is much better than the Free site? Someone has to pay the bill for the free site, so they have banners, etc. There are no banners on the subscription site. It looks much better than the free site, and is faster. So don't let that bother you. Some of us have already tried to reassure you. Have a bit of faith, and join us. You'll be glad you did.

Melanie, Poppi is objecting to the appearance of the FREE site. Let's reassure Poppi that the subscription site is much better.

"Someone has to pay the bill for the free site, so they have banners, etc." Doesn't the pay site finance the free site? Isn't one of the functions of the free site to entice people to sign up? I'm not knocking the pay site.. but is it worth turning off potential 'members', for the peanuts you get from banners and popups? I'm sure other people will assume that the pay site resembles the free site.

i purchased a subscription to poserworld about two weeks ago. the subscription site does not have any ads at all. and the downloads are really fast for me but i have dsl. i do not use a download manager because they ask u not to, but it is still fast. i dont know everyone there yet. or who steve and rena are...but i posted a message in the forum where you can request things. i requested a jar candle. an apothecary style glass jar candle. the guys made me one. and it was soooo nice and realistic looking. the site is easy to navigate too. i am very pleased and i will keep renewing my subscription.

I too agree the free site is nasty and ugly and confusing and all, or it was the last time I checked, but it is a nice and clean in the subscription site and they offer great stuff.

Poppi ... spend the money. In half an hour, I had downloaded more than enough to make my money back 5 times over. There were only a few times that my downloads lagged (and I blame my cable modem there), no popups or ads or ANY garbage at all, just clear clean uncluttered HTML and more fabulous Poser goodies than I've found before in one spot.

Here's a shocking idea...why don't one of you subscribers take a screenshot of the pay site and put it side-by-side with the free site for comparison? Hell, I'm curious about it now. :)

My subscription is currently expired, so I can't give you a side-by-side comparision for you but I'll give you a basic run down of the set-up as I remember it. it is set up in a "book" format (chapters being catagories - textures, props, clothes, etc) after that there are a number of "pages" per chapter, each page containing 4-6 items to download with a thumbnail. pretty simple, no pop-ups. The longest dl time was 15 min (large file), regular dial-up btw. Yes, the preview/free area is chock full of annoying ads and is slow, but if that is going to stop you from getting the best poser value around, so be it because you are the one missing out.

I?ll put in my 2 cents also. The site is laid out simply and efficiently. If you want a cool looking site with a lot of Fancy frames and things you won?t find it there. What you will find is Tons of good models and textures. I would rather Steve and Rena worked on models and textures than HTML. The site works just fine the way it is. You can see what is there from the free site. Oh and BTW, Merry Christmas.

And me, standard 56 modem at present, and not too much problem with downloading, easy to get to the stuff you want, only problem I have is storing all the stuff that I want to download from this great site. Worth every penny I paid, and I will definately renew my subscription. BTW Steve and Rena, will we get a reminder for when the sub needs renewing?

yes they also just organized the categories so you can find things easier...it is worth the money...and you can banish the free pop up site .....by just subscribing...

Aleks: That is a great screenshot, thanks. I also wanted to add that Steve and Rena exhibit excellent customer service. They are very responsive to any questions or concerns. I mentioned that it would be nice to have the Clothes section divided into categories, such as Mike, Vicky, etc. They reorganized the clothes section per my request. I've tried, whenever possible, to support people in this community. In the past, I haven't always had such great results. In fact there is one person who will likely never get another dime from me. Steve and Rena, and Poserworld, have earned the highest regard, and I look forward to one great year as a subscriber. So, Poppi, don't waste another moment. Go ahead and join Poserworld. You'll be glad you did.

Thanks everyone....especially Aleks. :)

There's no doubt there was alot of content at the old site that is not available at the new site.... "but the contents of all their CD's are there for download, so you can get any of the old things you used to be able to get on the old site." Contrary to what has been said, all those wonderful characters at Fairywoods are not available at the new site...BUT with that said, the old site had so much content on the pages, it was very hard to navigate and you had to go from place to place to find all the components for a character. The new site is very very easy to navigate and Rena puts a link directly to the page where a prop may be needed. I miss the the characters I used to drool over at Fairywoods, but now I can get what I want alot easier.....:>)

Aureeanna, the reason the characters aren't there is because they contained some objects created by other people that they couldn't include this time around. But the clothes and props Steve created and Rena textured are there. Ronknights, I realize that she was referring to the free site, but she was assuming that the subscription site was just a duplicate of that. What I was getting at was that the subscription site is set up with simplicity, but is very functional. You don't need fancy web layout and graphics to do what Rena and Steve are doing. They present their items (tons of them!) in a very professional and elegant way and that is really more important than a flashy web page. It's true, there are no banners and popups on the subscription site. It's a very clean and efficient site and beautifully organized. Steve, Rena, keep up the great work! Melanie

I realize that she was referring to the free site, but she was assuming that the subscription site was just a duplicate of that. I don't think that assumption is off base. I bet I am not the only one who took a look at the "free" site, and got turned off. And, yes...I do think it would be nice if at the free site, we could see some of the pretties that are being offered for sale. I really don't understand why we can't. Steve and Rena's stuff is fun to just look at. I guess we must pay for that privilege, now, as well....except for the teasers that are routinely given in this forum.

If you go to Poserworld, at the top of the page is a link that says Subscription Previews. If you click on that you will see 28 pages of previews of the items you can download by subscribing. There are no banners at the subscription site, the site is clean, easy to navigate and quick to load. And the downloads are fast as well. I have been very, very pleased with what I have received for my money. Steve and Rena's products are quality all the way.

Attached Link: http://poserworld.com/subspreview.asp

I have a membership at poserworld, and not to get flamed here, but I honestly rarely use it. The downloads for me take forever, 30-45 minutes and that's not the scenes but the clothes! I don't have that issue elsewhere (unless it is a HUGE file). I personally am one of those people who download and work, so when I download something it's because I'm looking for it, not because I want to spend the time to manually put the files where they need to go. I realize that rena said that was done so people could put the files where they wanted too (doesn't work quite like that since the geometries must be in their files) but I for one expect files to go where they should on their own (especially if money is involved). If people want to put the files elsewhere they can turn the option off. More than half the stuff I d/l from there I have deleted and never installed because it frankly irritates me. Even when I d/l I time out more often than not from that site. I think it's a shame, the work is great. Both the models and the textures, which is why I purchased my membership. But it isn't worth my frustration most of the time. Every now and then I download something - usually the newest items hoping for an easier install, not so far :-( But that is just my personal pet peeves if those aren't issues for you than go for it, the work is fabulous and the quality is top notch.

Just catching up and thought I'd put in a (hopefully helpful) comment or two here...

Poserworld is something of a religion in the Poser community it seems... and I can understand why people like the folks that run it, they seem like great people. However, it is interesting that there is a air of "don't you dare criticize!" hanging about.

The design and the pop-ups are a good example. No offense intended but the design of the free site is, well, bad. It's hard to navigate, the pop-ups are a total pain in the butt and it is slow. I kind of feels like a GeoCities site. Now, there are various reasons put forward for it, and some of them reflect a somewhat odd view of how to do business on the 'net but hey that's not a big deal :)

I'll just say this: One of the things we do here is sell subscriptions to sites (both adult and non adult) and it is clear that there is no real usefulness in letting your "preview/free" portion be so radically out of touch with your membership side. You usually drive away a lot of customers and I think they are right to question joining.

It is NOT being unkind or "ungrateful" to say this.

When I come to a preview section of a website that wants my money I expect to be treated as a potential customer, not some leech who should be made to suffer endless pop-ups and substandard design for the privilege of being advertised at. And the promise that once I pay my money it will get better doesn't entice me much.

Now, I don't have a subscription to Poserworld myself because I have yet to see an item that was something I both needed and looked like I would be able to use it in a scene the way I want. However, a lot of people say it is worth it and that is just fine.

But it seems like I am not the only one who goes there occasionally to try and find a reason to join and just can't get past the free site. Is glitzy design more important than content? no. But when someone is willing to allow bad design and pop-ups be their public face ti naturally raises questions about the standards of the content.

I hope all the best for them, but I really wish they would re=consider this strategy.

Thank you, Soulhuntre. The evening I went over there I just wanted to see something pretty to make me want to drop them some money for a subscription. I'd had a good week, and....oh, my....I have had yet another good week. So, was feeling cheery, like doing a little "impulse" buying. Sadly, I felt like I had landed in an internet KMart store, or worse. (I had been hoping for Nordstroms, or Burdines.) So, I kept my money in my pocket. Or, rather, spent it doing lunch all week. I am so glad that there is another who shares my viewpoint. Years ago, when I first started my own business....I did web design. Even for the pet peddlers, I often worked for wanted a quality site to showcase their "wares". To me, posting a few pics of upcoming "forsale" items, here, each week does not preview the goodies enough for me to shell out my hard earned money. Sometimes, truth be told, I don't like folks showing stuff that is soon to be "for sale", here. I kinda would like this forum to be more about poser, its uses, and problems, etc. (I feel "spammed" easily. Could be 'cause I live in Florida.) Pop...Pop...Poppi!!!

It really seems to me that some people had their minds closed from the start, and refuse to see any evidence to the contrary. Many of us have used logic, and even screenshot to help alleviate your concerns. Yet you remain unconvinced because you do not wish to see. I also know that you have not bothered to read other threads asking questions about Poserworld. A few weeks ago I started a thread asking some very detail questions about Poserworld. In that thread I also mentioned the same concerns about the layout of the free site. Steve, Rena and many others gave some very convincing information, and got my business. The evidence is all there for you to see, but you choose to remain blind and critical. The least you could do is admit the evidence presented to you, and admit you just didn't want to join, no matter how convincing the responses were. You're missing one great web site and community. That's your loss.

ronknights: "It really seems to me that some people had their minds closed from the start, and refuse to see any evidence to the contrary."

Presumably this isn't pointed at me as I only made a few points that all apply just find in light of the 'evidence':

• A lot of people are happy with their membership
• I think it is reasonable that a potential customer expect that the preview will be representative of the product
• It is common in the industry to not bombard the potential customer with banner ads and so on just for browsing
• I wish them the best
• The site design is not why I don't join

I'll add another:

• Wouldn't it be easier to put some time into fixing up the preview area rather than continually having to assure potential members that it isn't representative?

I think it is reasonable that a potential customer expect that the preview will be representative of the product And I would respond that the preview messages we see here on Renderosity are an excellent representation of the product available. I dont understand the problems people have with the free site. The banners are not that intrusive -- yes, there are a lot of them, but, like the junk mail that shows up in my AOL account, I simply look past them and move on to the stuff I want. The navigation links are fairly straight-forward. And God knows, the materials provided for free are light years beyond some of the crap that shows up for sale here or at DAZ. If the intro pages bother you that much, then bookmark the free pages for both PW and FW so you can get back to them without any undue effort. The subscription previews can be viewed from the messages posted here. I mean... please, people. Look at the product. If you dont think its worth it, then I cant imagine how demanding you must be in real life. And indeed, there are gems to be found even at K-Mart. Just a thought.....

I am sure that for many the files themselves are well worth the money - I mentioned that many times. What I was tying to do was indicate another business reality... that if you don't put the effort into making your preview section look good, or at least look liek your member serction you will have to constantly defend your content. ::shrugs:: All I can do is point it out.

If a person really wants to know about something, they ask people whom they feel they can trust. You ask people about a number of issues or things. Then you believe them and act accordingly. If a person asks to see the light, but keeps his/her eyes closed, then he/she never really wished to learn. Perhaps he/she just wanted to waste everyone's time?!

"If a person asks to see the light, but keeps his/her eyes closed, then he/she never really wished to learn." I still fidn this line of comment baffling. What exactly am I keeping (assuming you mean me) my eyes closed about? Thanks :)

I'm not so sure this is directed at you. You were not the person who initiated this whole thread. At any rate, someone said they didn't like the look of the Poserworld Free Section, and wondered if that was the way the subscription site looked. Many of us went to great lengths to assure everyone that the subscription area is much better, and that Poserworld is well worth the investment. Some people (you included?!) ignored all the good advice, and held onto their innacurate image of Poserworld. That indicates a closed mind, and someone who ignores the evidence. We come to the forums so we can share ideas and information. If I don't know something, I ask others. I learn really quickly that I can trust everyone here. With that in mind, I won't come here, ask for information, then turn around and tell people I don't believe them.

Hey Ron, I have a membership at PW due to what I was told, although I had asked a question regarding it awhile back and received private emails with some not so positive, but not totally negative comments. Why emails? Because no one wanted to leave themselves open to the kind of behaviour you are exhibiting. Talk about eyes closed, what good is the content of the site if a person doesn't get that far into it because they are put off? Just because they are PW/FW (and I do love them) doesn't mean that no one is allowed to be bothered by the main pages. The free section of PW is a BAD representation of a site with fantastic models and textures - remember that thread of yours? Even you thought so. Not every poser user in the world comes to renderosity (gasp) and of the ones that do not all of them come to the forums (gasp gasp). Even then, as fast and busy as the forums are at times even I don't read everything here(OMG!). So... if the "truth" "light" or whatever is available only here, I imagine they are losing alot of business. Any business online or offline should always present their best foot forward as it were. Anything less makes people wary or they feel that you aren't dedicated or capable. It's a fact of business. It isn't a personal attack against PW and Soulhuntre was only saying that it is a heavy consideration that a business not always have to defend (or be defended) and claim "Oh but our subscription area isn't like that at all". Geesh I left that site more than a handful of times myself because of the main area and I loved their stuff. It isn't just the pop-ups at the main site that put people off either, it's the layout - text goes too wide across the page and it's hard to concentrate on. It looks thrown together in an WYSIWYG editor by an online newbie. And to many that doesn't create confidence. It's a small thing to make the main area friendlier, and I don't mean getting rid of pop-ups, because people are used to those on the web. On the other hand the work itself is great, I have a few issues with the packaging and downloading but never ever with the quality of the model or the beauty of the textures.

Sorry, but I really find these arguments amazing. One of my favorite restaurants in New York is a little French place in the Village -- a tiny little restaurant that proudly advertises that its served millions of people 12 at a time. Its a slightly renovated mini-diner. You get your choice of one of two booths or you can sit at the counter. The lighting is bad. The floor probably hasnt seen new lino in 40 years. The last time it was painted was maybe 30 years ago. But the food is amazing: reasonably priced, excellent quality. The woman who owns the place is full of great stories of life in the Village from 1960 on. And I make a point, no matter how the schedule has to be rearranged, of having lunch there at least once during any business trip. I once recommended it to a couple of friends who live in the Upper East Side of Manhattan. They ventured down there, then decided they couldnt be bothered since they didnt like the neon lighting. I was flabbergasted, but I accepted that some people only look at the superficial. Frankly, if people are going to turn their noses up at the free section of PW and FW, its definitely their loss. And if they look on the free sections as some sort of piss poor representation of the subscription area, then all I can say is, fine, folks. Again, its your loss. Its gorgeous stuff being given away for free, and youre looking at the wrapping paper instead of the present. if you don't put the effort into making your preview section look good, or at least look liek your member serction you will have to constantly defend your content. Sorry, Soul, but thats silly. Rena and Steve certainly dont have to defend their content because those of us who are subscribers already know how amazing it is and will happily share that information at the drop of a .pp2 hat. Why emails? Because no one wanted to leave themselves open to the kind of behaviour you are exhibiting. And I will respond to this that I have complained about PW materials in the past on these boards and didnt receive any sort of public thrashing for it. Any good business will want to know when its providing a product its customer base might not like. To hide behind little private e-mails out of some sort of misguided fear is silly, IMHO. Many of us went to great lengths to assure everyone that the subscription area is much better, and that Poserworld is well worth the investment And thats all we really can do, Ron. If some people only want to look at the lighting, theyll never kow how really good the food is.

Well, I can not tell you why they were bothered to post it, only that they said that in their emails, I received 3 emails - all of which said they would rather not post it. Only one said they didn't want to offend or create a problem on the board.... Me I'll just post it - no problem, how else will others know? I think the problem with this thread is that it seems like an attack against PW/FW, it simply isn't. Yes they have great stuff, no one has denied that they have great stuff, only that the first impression is poor. While word of mouth (or keyboard) does send customers it seems a waste to send others away. As for restaurants, my favorites are those small little mom & pop places as well. Difference? Paint, flooring, lighting all of that costs money which small restaurants can ill afford most of the time. Web design on the other hand takes time. To change the main area over to resemble the subscription area's layout, o make it more presentable and easier to naviagate and read, that can be done in only a few hours. So there is a difference. Yes it is a shame that many will miss the content because the main area turns them off, but then that was the point. :~)

It all comes down to someone who can't see past their own stubborn concept of something they think shouldn't be. It is one thing to have concerns, and express them. Believe me, I went to great lengths to clarify every issue I could think of. Everyone involved was most supportive and went out of their way to inform me. I was sold on Poserworld a month before I got the money to subscribe. Not a single person had a bad thing to say about Poserworld. No one attacked me for asking questions. Now that I am a member, I continue to be impressed. I had a suggestion about fine-tuning the categories for clothing. Steven and Rena jumped on that suggestion, and made the changes almost immediately. If you take all the issues and items that make up a great product and great customer service, you find them all at Poserworld. So what do we want? Do we want to hold onto some initial impression that left us with concerns? Or do we want to see the evidence, hear the recommendations that come freely from satisfied customers? I guess I'm reminded of something my grade school teachers used to always say to/about me. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." I was a very stubborn child, and have since mellowed out. I can see the light.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Or, as Dorothy Parker once said when asked to use the word "horticulture" in a sentence, "You can lead a horticulture, but you cant make her think."

"I think the problem with this thread is that it seems like an attack against PW/FW, it simply isn't. Yes they have great stuff, no one has denied that they have great stuff, only that the first impression is poor. While word of mouth (or keyboard) does send customers it seems a waste to send others away."

It seams like  such a simple and obvious thing... that it might be a good idea to improve the usability and design of your site and store.

Yet the responses tot his seemingly simple suggestion are somewhat baffling. Apparently it si somehow wrong to suggest that business might be better for them if they take a little time to improve the site design and navigation.

It's almost as if bad design is considered a badge of honor.

I'll bite on the restaurant analogy. If I go into someplace and find that the wallpaper is pealing, they haven't bothered to fix the lights and the toilet is a mess... the chairs are broke and the floor is dirty I don't think I really care how good the food tastes... the odds are that anyone who would allow their business to deteriorate like that and think it is "good enough" is probably cutting corners with the food too.

Do I think it's that bad in this case? not really .. but it sure does seam like some things are left at "good enough" instead of being improved.. and frankly that puts me off a little.

Heck, if it's time or expertise that's the problem maybe they can ask for help? They have a lot to offer in trade if they don;t have money and it might be a good idea for all concerned.

Apparently it si somehow wrong to suggest that business might be better for them if they take a little time to improve the site design and navigation. Im sure by now theyre more than aware of this. It gets mentioned with about the same regularity as complaints about the Hot 20. Perhaps its out of Steve and Renas hands. Who knows? But more to the point, who cares? Its still good work, and, as I pointed out earlier, if navigating the site is so much work (and sorry, but I dont think it is), then bookmark the two freebie pages and leave the rest of it alone. I mean, good christ, I once wrote in C&D how annoyed I was with people posting freestuff that required tracking down a half dozen supplemental-but-needed files, some of which were no longer available. That, to me, is far more egregious than a bunch of stupid banners, but you should have seen the reaction I got when I voiced this complaint. People apparently dont mind hunting all over Poser creation for files needed to use a certain character, but theyre going to get all bent out of shape over having to deal with a couple of banner ads??? Is this supposed to make sense somehow, people? I'll bite on the restaurant analogy. If I go into someplace and find that the wallpaper is pealing, they haven't bothered to fix the lights and the toilet is a mess... the chairs are broke and the floor is dirty I don't think I really care how good the food tastes... the odds are that anyone who would allow their business to deteriorate like that and think it is "good enough" is probably cutting corners with the food too. If that were the case, Id probably agree with you, but in this case, it was simply that it was a more or less typical 60s diner: neon lights on the ceiling, old lino on the floor. Clean, but nothing that looked like what a "real" French restaurant should look like. But I suppose some people arent comfortable unless theres an insulting maitre d' at the door and a tempermental chef in the kitchen... =) The bottom line, gang, is a really simple one. Youve seen enough examples of PW around here to know that the quality is going to be first rate. Youve heard dozens and dozens of testimonials from people who have concurred that its first rate. If youre gonna be put off by a few stupid banner ads, then maybe PW just isnt for you in the first place.

Yes, it is clear the people who are holding out are not really concerned about the quality of the subscription site. Those concerns have been addressed, and quite well. It is clear that those who still hold out never had any intention of subscribing, no matter what anyone says or does. I think it is important that we realize this fact, and let this thread die. Poserworld is without a doubt the best site I've found, and I see no reason to subscribe to any other site or service. The overwhelming majority of responses to this and other threads say the same. That is the fact, and it won't change.

Yes, WE have seen how great their stuff is, but others haven't and that was the point. However, no matter how great the models are and no matter how many dislike the main site, it won't change PWFW as long as they don't want it changed. To each their own way of doing business....

Do you have any idea how much time and effort it takes to redo an entire web site?! Steve and Rena devote their time and energy to making an excellent product, and keeping the subscription area in great shape. They even do modifications after legitimate requests. This whole thread started with one person who thought about subscribing to Poserworld. She was putoff by the look of the free section, and expressed her concerns. We did everything in our power to put her at ease, and persuade her to join. If I recall, she decided against it anyway. She just couldn't get past that initial problem. I rarely visit the freebie section any more. Who needs to?! The whole concept of forums such as the Renderosity forums is for people to come to get information, give information, and learn, help each other. We quickly learn whom we can trust for information and advice, and we enrich ourselves with the wealth of knowledge we gain here. It really hurts in this case that someone asked for our knowledge and experience and decided it wasn't good enough. There is nothing wrong with Poserworld or the way they do business. Their is something wrong with obstinate stubborness, and people who are fixated on problems that are irrelevant. We try our best to help them see the light. Then eventually we move on to more worthwhile pursuits. I will do that now. I have plenty more important things to do than beg the horse to drink water when he is standing right by the water, and thirsty too.

"Do you have any idea how much time and effort it takes to redo an entire web site?!" lol Of course I do Ron! Last week I revamped all of 3-D Arena, and SilverMage Concepts. This week coming up I might revamp The Arena Scrolls, haven't decided yet. The week after that I am sceheduled to revamp Mambaonline.org and two of the many other websites I maintain/designed. Everyone wants a new look for the new year ;~) btw - no one said to redo the entire site - but suggested to redo the main area. Since there is already a layout designed in the subscription area and the text is already written, a basic change to make the main area match the site could/should be done in a day. :~p I wonder what is wrong with those who bellieve to leave things alone and that improvements are bad.....

oh wanted to say that the last line was a tongue in cheek, facetious remark ;-) Since you can only read the words and not hear the tone or see my face to know.

I rarely visit the freebie section any more. Who needs to?! Shoot, I do!!! The alley scene set was an incredible freebie. And the characters posted in Fairywoods... well, damn, do you realize how much we would have had to pay if someone else had built them?

"Its still good work, and, as I pointed out earlier, if navigating the site is so much work (and sorry, but I dont think it is), then bookmark the two freebie pages and leave the rest of it alone."

My point here was never that I had trouble getting to the "freebies" - the topic was the relationship between the look/feel of the preview area and the desire to subscribe.

Currently my main wonder here is why any suggestion of improvement is met with such hostility.

"Poser creation for files needed to use a certain character, but theyre going to get all bent out of shape over having to deal with a couple of banner ads??? Is this supposed to make sense somehow, people?"

I can only speak for myself but I don't track down those files, and I do consider it to be bad form when I have to. One of the reasons I will happily pay for something is to get the attention to detail that sometimes only comes with money. Yes, of course many free items are outstanding and well packaged... but those that are not I ignore.

So you aren't seeing any inconsistency from me.

"If that were the case, Id probably agree with you, but in this case, it was simply that it was a more or less typical 60s diner: neon lights on the ceiling, old lino on the floor."

I am happy to allow that this might be a perception thing.

Since I work with designers (as well as doing design myself) every day, and working on and with programmers I have fairly high standards for what I consider acceptable. To be fair to Poserworld most of the sites on the net are much, much worse but that still doesn't change that especially when money is involved I sort of expect a little more from a site.

No doubt to me the design is a much more jarring problem than for a non professional.

"Youve seen enough examples of PW around here to know that the quality is going to be first rate."

I agree that their examples have been a good indicator. Unfortunately, none of the things they have shown have looked like something I have a use for. I would heartily recommend them to someone who was doing personal work, and maybe something someone who needs professional parts should try if they needed a starting point.

And that is why I am on the cusp To be honest I am extremely picky about how clothing looks... probably too picky for the current state of the art of Poser itself. I am fairly sure I will not use 99% of what I fid there but I might try it anyway for that 1% but I keep looking at it and going... nah.

"Yes, it is clear the people who are holding out are not really concerned about the quality of the subscription site."

I am not "holding out" for anything at all. I made a suggestion, and am happy to discuss why I think the suggestion is valid. BTW - double checking the site just now it looks better than it used to, so that helps :)

"The whole concept of forums such as the Renderosity forums is for people to come to get information, give information, and learn, help each other."

And it was in that spirit I made the suggestion. I was trying to impart some information and experience from a professional career dealing with selling on the web. There was noting evil or malicious in my intent.

"Their is something wrong with obstinate stubborness, and people who are fixated on problems that are irrelevant."

Or someone who continues to insist that a relevant problem is of no importance?

"Do you have any idea how much time and effort it takes to redo an entire web site?!"

Yes, I do. I also know that there are many, many ways to make the job much easier. If anyone had asked for that information instead of attacking any opinion that dared suggest there might be room for improvement I would have been happy to share - and still am.

I know that these are busy people - and I know that they are trying to run a business. I was suggesting a way they could improve the business itself.

The short form for a site like Poserworld is this:

• Use Dreamweaver
• Use the Templates feature in DreamWeaver
• Pay someone if need be to do a good, clean, fast design
• Move to an alternative (and better for everyone) method of selling advertising space

That alone would probably significantly decrease the effort needed and add new customers. For extra credit:

• Use back end code to allow additional items to be added through a database, rather than maintain it by hand. Bonus points if you move to ASP.NET because of the huge speed increases and the ease of integrating the code with the site for non-programmers.
• If you're using a back end system anyway, add code to track the downloads so you know how popular an item is.
• Keyword the items so that they are searchable.

Ah well. The point is that I was trying to help and make some suggestions that I think would help these very busy people understand some client issues and make some more money. Unfortunately most of what I have gotten back for it is insulting commentary.

Fortunately, none of it from the folks at Poswerworld... so maybe they might still think the information we tried to present has value.