First of all, I'd like to apologize to you all for going on another rant. In the other forums I visit on the internet, as well as in real life, I'm seen as a disturber of the proverbial, and Moderators have been known to get the itchy clicking finger when I post. That much said, this is a question that is directed to Agent Smith as much as to the rest of you. The first thing that I would like to ramble about -yet again, is the general lack of quality and thought some of the works I see on Renderosity have. Everyone starts somewhere, and leaving the whole huge discussion of 'friendly' critique aside, it would seem that having a talent at art (this kind in specific) is something that you're born with rather than grow into. Some have grown into it, but most people have learned it the hard way and have usually drawn their inspiration and talent off real-life work -and their subsequent ability to do that. At any rate, the point is not that as much as what we do with this piece of software that we call Bryce... The second issue is in regards to piracy. How many of us have purchased Bryce, how many of us have downloaded it off p2p networks? And this again brings the idea of talent into play, at least as far as I am concerned, because I am willing to bet that the majority of those who create and post poor works and show absolutely zero talent -and I can be a judge of that based on my experience with the program, showing no development over time, haven't bought the program. What is the stance Renderosity takes on this issue? How would the R'osity community view such people? I visit this site at least 2 times each day. My usual visits are the Bryce forum and the Bryce, Cinema4D and Lightwave galleries. Whatever else draws my attention on the way -like the really really poor matrix-wannabe tutorial on the main page right now, I look at. There is a VISIBLE difference between grades of knowledge of separate pieces of software. There is the newbie (and this is the category I'm asking the question towards), the mediocre renderer, the improving one, and finally the great ones and the Masters. And finally, moving in for the kill... Renderosity is an awesome avenue for allowing people to learn and to interact in the realm of 3D art. The community and the forums are nerfed beyond belief with people willing to help and in general individuals who wouldn't tell you to pack up and leave in lack of talent for the world... That is wonderful. But what about these newbies, and indeed, some of us who know how to use the software yet give thumbs up to almost every single little piece of proverbial newbiness that crosses our path? It's great, Timmy, you used nothing but a couple of primitives, one boolean negative and default textures... way to go! Your signature looks cool and takes half of the +ing image, so you MUST be a good artist. What can I say, I'm jaded. Is it a good reason? Are YOU the only measure of your own worth? I think yes and no. If you come here and pull a Timmy like some 30% of the works that get posted on this forum are, and you think you're the best thing since the original bryce, then you need therapy. If you come here and ask for help but all you get is 'great piece of work,' or 'love the atmosphere', then the only art you're practicing is that of bullshit. Just my two extremely jaded cents, $10 Canadian, or three pigs and one cow Romanian. Thanks for reading, please flame me now because I must have said something wrong... draculaz Mihnea Dumitru

I guess I'll be the first to respond to this. :o) I guess I'm a little confused. First, what exactly are you wanting? Something I've learned and try my best to practice, is if you have a complaint, be ready to offer a solution before voicing that complaint. This is one reason why I tend to not give critiques here...because I don't feel I know enough to do so sometimes. The next is that what you're so, uh, verbal about is something no one has any control over. People are people and there's no stopping them. You're talking about the party bore, the loudmouth at the next table who thinks he's soooo funny, the crass people who have no clue how others feel about them. Those people are going to interject themselves into other's lives regardless because they are oblivious to other's feelings. There really is no way to monitor those people except to not associate with them. Last I guess is how do you judge what's good and what's not? Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder and what one person thinks is art, another might think pornography or simply bad. What I tend to see here at in other places like Renderosity is that there are very many people who have a great technical grasp of 3D art but the subject matter is awful. To give an example there, I recently saw a series of someone's work that was technically wonderful. However, all the subject matter had to do with what I preceived to be torture and disfigurement. However, this person was applauded by everyone as being outstanding art. Here is where personal taste comes into it because I thought it disgusting. I would rather see some newby's garish art than something that depicts what I saw in these images. So back to my first point. How would you make the distinction? Who would be the judge? Art is too subjective in my mind and I think in an informal community such as this, it does have to be a personal judging. It only took me a short time to see what standard I was hoping to apply to myself. I'm willing to police myself and post where is appropriate or to not post at all except in this forum. I'm sure I fall into the category of "general lack of quality and thought some of the works I see on Renderosity have" but as you noted, everyone has to start somewhere. I suspect that most of those who really don't have an inclination for this art form will naturally drop by the wayside while those who are serious continue on with it. Probably the casual user outweighs the serious so there is probably an overabundance of those people. I also fall into the category of hobbiest. This is a hobby for me. I have no aspirations of being a serious artist, making a bundle of money from it or makeing a mark on the world lasting centuries. I simply want to make pictures I think look good to me, and that I enjoy doing and hopefully, give a little pleasure to others somewhere along the way. I take pride in what I do and I will try my best to do my best but when I quit having fun doing it, I'll quit. I'm thankful for those here who are willing to give their advice and I try to learn from it. To another point you mention, did I pay for Bryce? Not initially. I downloaded the trial version, and since I have access to two computers, I ran the trial consecutively on them so I got two month's worth of use. Then, a friend of mine offered me a copy of his. I'm just serious enough about this tho', I went ahead and purchased my own copy. Since I work for a university, I got an academic version at a cost I can afford. (BTW, this same friend, who is a graphic artist, has offered me several other programs from 3D-Max to Rhino and Poser, all of which I've politely refused.) Finally, I am thankful for all the "good job!"'s I've gotten. Most of those have come with "this was good but if you do this, it'll be better" and I appreciate that. If all I'd gotten was no response or nothing but "it sucks" responses, I'd have quit trying to learn Bryce a long time ago. Maybe I'm too nice (and I've been accused of that) but why should I tell someone their work isn't good when it simply doesn't suit my taste? How do I know what their intention was when they created it? Maybe they wanted the look they got and if I tell them it's not right, then I'm imposing my taste on them. Last thing? I think what you're talking about really amounts to a version of censorship. It's possible, but at what price? This community is open to all, serious or not. And I do say this with no animosity. These are simply my views. :o)

Hey Drak, Interesting comments. But I do understand where your comming from - from a certain point of view. I dont think its up to me or anyone really to say what is a great work of art and what shows "general lack of quality". Who am I to decide that? If posting some rendered images makes an artist happy, then isn't that worth it? Thats not always the point though . Its all about possibility. Thats why we all do what we do. And it is because of that very possibility that we do what we do in life. We do it because of the 'Possibility' of something else.. Someones art may show a "General lack of quality", but after all, this is a community. Not everyone can bake a good cake, but I think its sure fun to taste them all. :) -alex

My grandmother was a Rochester Institue of Technology trained brush and oils, watercolor, and tempera kind of artist. Her kind of art was quite different from anything that goes on at Renderosity and I would not be surprised if she would have denied that ANYTHING done here would fit her definition of art let alone good or bad art. I know other conventional media artists that would strongly agree. So I think we should stand back from judging our peers so critically. On the other hand, I am sometimes disturbed by the lack of constructive comments. If comments are made on image they are usually just a string of superlatives. I think people are afraid of hurting feelings which is nice but it really isn't very helpful for anyone seeking a learning experience. Of course maybe what this forum is all about is simply a venue for ones work. A place to post some pictures that give us pleasure during the act of creation and which we simply wish to hold up and say "hey, look at this!" And, you know, that's really all right too. As far as piracy.. well I think thats a stretch. It may well be that the renders of a cube with 1 light bulb are all done with pirated software but I paid for my program and I've done my share of mirrored balls and shiny marble infinite planes:) I think I agree with eelie in that I wonder what it is you want to do to "fix" the problems you see. And I also agree that this forum is a microcosm of our society and unless you want to form an exclusive club you're kind of stuck with a great variety of attitudes, talents, and approaches. I suspect that people that really are offended by the sometimes amatuerish work here have all run off to professional societies or some such. Just my two cents... we get a few more and we can order out for pizza!;-) Ed

I think one of Renderosity's greatest charms is that it lets everyone and anyone post and participate. Hey, they even let me in here! And I don't think that just because someone is a little lacking in the talent department, that it means they stole the software that they're using. :)

excuses you can make by the millions, it's not really that... it just pisses me off sometimes to see people uploading relatively default pieces, calling them their own and having the cheek to sell them (i've seen this on a number of occasions here). those kinds of people, the ones without much of a clue are the ones that i think give me, the hard-working hobbyist, a black eye. The whole argument with art being subjective could well stand, if taken to the extremes, as an argument to why the hell my pieces are not in the Guggenheim? REALLY!!! I consider it art... ;) I think some people are just too nice or whatever. Sometimes it pays to rip someone's work apart -in a friendly non-trolling way, just to help them understand. I'm perfectly willing to do that and I'm perfectly willing to accept it from someone else, as long as they know wtf they're talking about. In some cases though people fashion themselves as artists, adorn a shitty signature that takes half of the working space, and even have the cheek to sell their amalgamated shit, despite it being just a gathering of default textures and so on. That's where my beef is. Those people either don't know wtf they're doing and never will, or are abusing the software and us. drac

I am gonna voice to this too DRAC. You have done this statment making before and I have read it. Let me make one point clear to you first before I begin. YOU WERE NEW TO THIS PROGRAM ONCE TOO!!!!!!!! DON'T FORGET THAT!!!!!! With that said... Stop bashing the newbies and the people that don't have time to visit the forum every day.... much less 2 or 3 times a day. There are times when I can't visit the forum for several days at a time... or even sit down to my computer at home. My job requires 12 to 15 hours of my day sometimes. Sometimes for day at a time. We are not all perfect artists like you apparently are. So cool your jets! Who made you the judge? Does Renderosity take direction from you as to how it is going to determine who can and can not post here because of quality that doesn't meet your standards? This statement by you Drac: "If you come here and ask for help but all you get is 'great piece of work,' or 'love the atmosphere', then the only art you're practicing is that of bullshit." Is way out of line. I am not looking to be any Picasso by any means. But as a hobby it is a great way for me to escape reality for awhile. Something that everyone needs to do once in awhile. I stumbled upon the Renderosity site and thought it was really cool... I found a community of people that had something in common with me... Namely Bryce. I also found that the people here are very willing to help people out when they ask for help with something. Nobody was born with the inherent ability to work with Bryce as you seem to have been. Youngsters like yourself had computers to play around on in kindergarten and grade school as well as high school. Old farts like myself didn't. I was out of school for nearly 20 years before I worked with a computer at home. So lose this self serving attitude that you bring here with you. This is the kind of crap that runs people off from the forum. Remarks from unappreciative schmuks like you. Oh.... forgive me. You are an ART GOD. I forgot. My apologies. As for pirated versions of Bryce.... For the record... I own my copy of Bryce 5. How the hell do you know if someone did a work on a lagitimate copy of the software or a pirated version? You can read bits and bytes through someones art work now? Let me know how you do that. It might be a lucrative business to get into. Oh..... forgot to mention that compared to your self proclaimed abilities with 3D Graphic Art.... I am going to say that the best I can acheive right now is the "newbie catagory". Hope it doesn't offend you that I am not as good as you must be. I can be as harsh as you Drac... Not that I want to but, I think that you should stop with the nonsense remarks and worry about your own art and your own comments. Be like the rest of us... If you want to be harsh with your comments then go right ahead and do it. People will start to ignore you and your comments. The criticism is to be constructive, not destructive. If someone says "great piece of work," or "love the atmosphere", What is it to you; unless of course it is your work. If you aren't getting honest comments on your art, then maybe you need to state that in the header of your thread... something like "Name of pic... Please be brutally honest." Maybe some people will get the hint. That's my five dollars worth.... got enough for a pizza now Ed?

By saying Be like the rest of us.... I meant that you should not let the little things become obstructive to your own work... that didn't pertain to remarks... And honestly. Harboring that kind of anger and hostility will do you more harm than good... Just a piece of good advise.

erm... spanky, I never said that I was a bryce god, my comments were in regards to people who don't know their own ass from a boolean... and you don't learn this program by coming to the bryce forum, you learn it by doing work with it. i looked at your gallery and i recall stating good things about your work, i wouldn't consider you a newbie for instance. but frankly i would categorize your answer more as trolling than as just competition to mine in terms of discussing the issues that i brought forth. drac

Well if someone actually sells a "default piece", then more power to them! I think in some cases people see what images get in the Hot 20 or get a lot of comments, and then they try to imitate that. My advice is to do what you enjoy doing and not worry if you don't get an attaboy. Maybe you should post in the forum if you want someone to rip your work apart, but I agree with eelie, kinda hard to know if something was intended or not. I get the impression that you are po'ed at the poser crowd because your image didn't make the mag cover. I disagree with your comment about not learning by coming to the bryce forum, I think you do-yes, you have to work with it, but I learn new things all the time just reading the forum posts.

Well I am not trolling! I know you never said you were a Bryce God... You imply that you are better than the rest of us though. To me it is just words. But to someone that is trying to improve on what they know already it is quite derogatory. It is the flame that you invited. "please flame me now..." You read the following comments you made and you will see what I mean by what I said above. 1.The first thing that I would like to ramble about -yet again, is the general lack of quality.... 2. "having a talent at art... is something that you're born with rather than grow into 3. Whatever else draws my attention on the way -like the really really poor matrix-wannabe tutorial on the main page right now 4. I am willing to bet that the majority of those who create and post poor works and show absolutely zero talent -and I can be a judge of that based on my experience with the program, showing no development over time, haven't bought the program 5. But what about these newbies... 6. some of us who know how to use the software yet give thumbs up to almost every single little piece of proverbial newbiness that crosses our path? 7. If you come here and pull a Timmy like some 30% of the works that get posted on this forum are, and you think you're the best thing since the original bryce, then you need therapy 8. If you come here and ask for help but all you get is 'great piece of work,' or 'love the atmosphere', then the only art you're practicing is that of bullshit. See what I mean. Those are the things that stand out. I appreciate the nice comments from you concerning my image as well. It just seems that you portray yourself as being better than everyone with your art. You do some nice work. I don't take that from you. Some excellent work if I might be so bold. I just think that being that this forum is open to the public that the little things that bother you should just be things that you see and let them pass.... Life is filled with these kinds of things. Sometimes they are better left alone. I agree that it is nice to have honest comments. I also agree that you learn by doing the work. But everyone has to start somewhere and you know as well as I that the Bryce manual sucks. Susan Kitchens Real World Bryce 4 is an excellent resource. However, I didn't know it existed until I saw it mentioned here. I went right out and bought it at Barnes and Nobel. I have a friend who I encouraged to buy a copy of Bryce5. I encouraged him to buy Susan Kitchens RWB4 and I also encouraged him to check out the Renderosity forum. Should I not have done so? After all he will be a newbie. I know that he will be calling me and asking all kinds of questions. But there will be a time I don't have the answer. What do I tell him.... "Don't go to the renderosity forum cause you are still a newbie."? See where I am coming from Drac... Maybe I was a little harsh in my previous post. Wasn't meant to be competitive or derogatory.... I just wanted to make a point, not to hurt feelings or tear you down. And by the way.... you are a talented artist. I have no problem saying that. Your work says so. ;o)

Frankly I'm grateful for the 'Loved the sky/ground/tree/texture/mat/terrain etc' comments. I'm also grateful for the fact that people, who are obviuosly better at this than me, bother their asses to look at my stuff and comment one way or the other. I like to think that my next piece will be better than my last or that I've learned to do something I couldn't before. Like many of us, I don't have the time or the health to do this all day/night long. I wish I did. The problem is I see what I want in my head and try to get it on the screen, but as you've seen from my work, I don't always succeed. Beating this takes practise and even doctors have a practise....! I do beleive though that in other places there is a kind of artist who manages to beat us all hands down, with one punch. A little sift through the Rend will show you who they are. But they don't care to join us in this forum for reasons apparent only to themselves. OK...what this leaves us with is a community of Bryce users who are for the most part, intelligent, friendly, neighborghly and above all artists in their own right. I like being here, I like the newbies, I like the oldbies, I like the art....Frankly I think I've got nothing to complain about...other than the fact that I wish I was as good as some of the good people here in the forum. Nuff Said. The Bryster

Just my thoughts on the constructive commenting of images thing - On the issue of giving constructive comments on images, I prefer to have a 2 way dialogue going (well, its the way I prefer)... i.e. where both the artist and the viewer can say their ideas, and discuss things. To me, the gallery posts are far too "one way" in nature to really leave constructive dialog. The forums offer a better alternative for image discussions just because people can post as often as they want in a thread, ask questions sequentially, get answers, leave images, ask more questions..... In my case, most of the finished images I see come from people I know from the chat room (being on a 56k modem limits any widespread gallery looking I might want to do). While I often leave a good comment (hell, most people like and appreciate pats on the back for their efforts), the chat thing gives me the means which I can use to talk with them about such things as improvements, ideas, how they made something, why they did things the way they did, the sort of effect they were after.... i.e. constructive criticism and/or sharing of ideas. I find the 2 way thing much more satisfying. But, thats just me and my thoughts.

Heya :) First of all, I'm rather new to Bryce(sort of) and this is a hobby for me. That doesn't mean I don't take criticism well or don't give criticism if I see fit(I think I've done that in the last couple days and maybe hurt someones feelings by doing so)but I believe most people on here are trying to be considerate of other peoples feelings and help them along in their chosen hobby, career, whatever it is for them.

Personally, I don't think much of my work is that good but let me tell you something... when you have someone make a comment that what you've done is good in their eyes, it makes the effort you've put into it all worthwhile.

While we're on the subject of piracy, yes, I'm sure there are people out there who have downloaded various programs. I for one do not have the money to shell out for 3D Max and a ton of other programs, I do however own two copies of Bryce and Photoshop(have a Mac and PC). There is a ton of stuff available via the internet and for people who would like to try some of these programs sometimes this is the best way to do so. It's a good thing, maybe they want to see if they can actually work with the program or if they have any talent before they go shelling out hard earned money for it.

I'm a newbie on here and probably always will be, I don't have much time to play around with Bryce and Photoshop as much as I'd like to due to working two jobs and a family but let me tell you something, I get a great deal of joy viewing other peoples work, regardless of their level and the fact that there is a place where people of all levels can get together and discuss each others work is wonderful and refreshing to me.

Think of how many people who might have read your post Draculaz, and won't post their works now. I know I've not posted everything I've done as it doesn't meet "my" requirements for others to view it, but I truly believe that we learn from each other and that's why I'm here :)

as the Bryster said, Nuff said

Squeeka (Eternal Bryce Newbie)

I'm a person selling images with default textures. And those buying them love my work. In fact, I'll be in an art show on the 29th with seven of my default texture images. But I guess I should pull out because draculaz says I'm just fooling myself.

Well said, jasonmit. Downgrading peoples work because they use primitives and default textures is the wrong way. It is not important what they use, but how they use the shapes and textures. Else Draculaz has to damn everyone who goes to a shop, buys some "default" oil colors and brushes and paints a lovely picture on canvas with this. Even if it looks great. It's not the chosen tools which define art - it's the art itself which is important. Greets, Jimi

Fire me if you want to.. but I thing I do anderstand what Draculaz mean, When I take a look at bryce gallery there is "most of the time" only 3 or 5% of images that I "focus" on.. That's true Renderosity is a great place for those who want to learn, there is so much good tips for beginners, but what about the improved brycers? The only way I found to improved my work is to participate to the monthly challenge.. It help me to allways go deeper and deeper is the soft, and to try to make something new every time. But when I'm in need of inspiration, or when I do need a tip.. there is not much to look at. Sometimes I wich I could still be a newbee.. and find again the excitation of discovering something I've vever tried, an unknown function.. I wich I could take a look at the gallery and find that every image is a master piece of art.. So what can we do "us the improved Brycers" except sometime trying to help others with our knowledge.. or sometimes "like Draculaz did" say that we'r fed-up with what we see... Dont get me wrong, I like bryce and Renderosity.. but the most exciting thing that I do now with bryce is to share what I know about it with beginners.. But I don't want to be a teacher.. I still want to learn bryce so please Bryce Gods!.. make us dream! Warm regards (ps.. sorry for trying to put that kind of feeling in words, It's not my native language and I should work it out..lol)

One other thing: It's quite a stretch to say that if someone has some software that they don't really know how to use all that well, then they must have stolen it.

OK, my turn. I NEVER use any of the following words unless I mean them: Good Great Excellent Awesome God-like Well, you get the idea. If I like the whole image, or just part, I may say so, I may not. If I think it sucks, I will not say so. I comment only to be supportive or constructive or because the work MOVES me. That being said, I agree with you (drac) about the postings in the Galleries. I would even say it is probably closer to 99 % crap (in certain galleries). Even my own work. But it's that one percent that keeps me going. :^) By all means if we have a suggestion that will help someone build the chops necessary to make good digital art, then tell them. But do it NICELY, the way you would like others to help you. squeeka, you've put the newbie point of view very well, I can still remember how it feels. Play nice, have fun. And think about it like this. When camcorders came out, so many people began to videotape their children. How many of those tapes would be of interest to anyone outside (or even inside) the immediate family? Now substitute "Bryce" for "camcorders" and "make digital art" for "videotape their children". Most of the work you see at Renderosity is amateurish because most of us are amateurs. Most of it looks like the work of beginners because most of us are beginners. The early work of AgentSmith, Rochr and others does not look like their current work for a reason. We all need practice to grow. Even people who were born with talent.

I've been using Bryce for a long time (since version 2 in fact), I give tips when I can, but I'm still learning. As to my art, I don't think it's particularly good, but I enjoy doing it and I want to improve. I could read books till the cows come home, but I get more knowledge and inspiration from an exchange of ideas such as is available here. With the cost of bryce being so low, why steal it??? there'll never be another version if people are just ripping copies, and I'd love to see another version with some of those little niggles solved....

I just want to say how much I appreicate the help I've gotten from the Bryce forum. Many times I would have given up if tJohn and others hadn't come to my rescue. Learning the program by myself was difficult for me. I read the manual, but there are things not in the manual, or I get a little lost about where to look for answers or I get confused when I find the answers. The people here really try to help someone with problems. True, you learn by doing, but Bryce, and other programs can be daunting to the newbie and a bitt of guidence goes a long way. Thank you for your help.

I always pray to god that before I can finish typing a comment on a silly argument like this, that the thread would be locked and or deleted entirly.. (which has happened thankfully)

The complaints that i'm seeing are that there are to many newbie images and not enough pros.. well Tjohn said it already for me, this place it packed with newbies, and of course they do improve, but not in a blink of an eye, and normally not without help.. so why complain about the newbie who can't do the work of a pro..
I'm still a newbie to this program, and i've been using it since bryce3d came out.. i'm a slow learner, i improve very slowly over time when it comes to these things (most of my art time is spent with enamel and acrylic paint) so should I stop making 3d art because i'm not making leaps and bounds in the pro direction? I'd rather stab a man in the eye then listen to something so stupid.

Have you ever notice that as people do improve they start to delete their older stuff that they themselves don't like.. as of now they are proud that managed to create something, when for so long they believed that they couldn't even draw a stick figure..

the stupidest thing i've read thus far, and one point that many have already adressed, is the assumption that if they aren't good at the program they must have stolen it... this is the most unheard of attack at people i've ever seen in my life. you can never say someone stole the program because they suck at it.. hell what if the people who make images that blow all of ours out of the water are the ones who stole it, so they can save a buck.. that comment was unfair and uncalled for, and seems to have been put in there for nothing more then a raise out of people (and it worked wonders)

Just remember, that because your a bryce user, some of those "friendly" lightwave uses think your just the same as those (extrealy slow learning) newbies you despise so much...

and now that i've vented.. the tiny bit of emtions that i've had stored up inside me.. i'll shut up now, before i get in trouble..

Sorry, Drac, I usually like a lot your works and what you say here, but this time I really don't understand this attack. Because it's an attack, you know. For me, I'm so glad this place is full of newbies, and I'm an hobbyist and never pretended to be something else than that. I, for one, noticed an average increase in the quality of the posts in the Bryce gallery and said this here more than once. So, my final question (and comment) is: so, what? Lucky R'osity that's full of newbies and hobbyists, and full of people willing to help the newbies and hobbyists, so again... I try to comment most images, and when I don't like one I try to find something good in it. And, if there's nothing good in it, I won't comment it. Most of us aren't pro adn R'osity isn't a graphic company, so I'm not "forced" to leave a negative judgement because of budget matters. There's a great difference between negative and critic comments. But, at the end, I still don't understand your apparent anger. Again: so what? Friendly, Stefano

I consider myself a "newbie" to Bryce, I dont consider what I do as art, its just a hobby of mine (to make pretty pictures)and I dont take it as seriously as you. I come to this forum and Gallery because the people are friendly and genuinely want to help, I hadn't realized Renderosity was only meant for "the Great Ones or The Masters" I dont remember reading that in the TOS. I guess it will be a few years before I post an image again in the Gallery, by then I may be up to par. Although I do think however that there is only one reason you started this thread in the first place and it can be seen in your opening statement: "In the other forums I visit on the internet, as well as in real life, I'm seen as a disturber of the proverbial" Its like fighting with a pig, everybody gets dirty but the pig loves it. My $.02 worth

draculaz - why let it bother you? Some people like to post quick images for fun, some take more time, and some post only their best work maybe once or twice a year. Just imagine a gallery full of hobbit's and roobol's and jjsmlee's - wonderful artwork, but you'd only need to visit once a month to see all the new stuff. Sure, I've been "campaigning" (some people would use a less polite word) for an upload limit of one per day, but I certainly wouldn't go as far as saying every piece of work a person uploads should be honed to perfection. I know that none of my pieces are - not even close. Now, if we were in the Max or Maya or Lightwave forum I'd be taking a very different line. I'd be with you all the way - either post something worth looking at or don't post at all. But that's because these packages are pro packages. If someone renders a reflective ball over water in Max they should be strung up by the booleans. But Bryce and Poser are affordable hobbyist software, something that anyone can pick up and use straight away, so to assume that everyone should post a perfect image is a little naive and also unfair. This also translates to comments. Many of the people commenting are commenting from their own perspective and artistic merit, and may therefore think that the default wave texture on the default cone is the greatest thing they've ever seen. And who knows, maybe it is. But so what? You don't have to take notice of every comment. So cool down a bit! ;) If you're pissed that work you think is inferior has beaten yours in competition, or gets more comments, then get used to it! Produce something that leaves people in no doubt. Honestly, do you think that everybody is happy with their competition placings or number of comments? But they don't complain, they just try again! I'll let you into a secret: I was very disappointed with my placing in the last cover competition - to be honest I thought the judging sucked. IMO there was one person who should've beaten me (go Rochr!! :)))) and he did, but the others...? : But I didn't complain, I just posted my image in the gallery and let the comments tell the story. Next cover contest, I'll enter again. And then again. And then I'll win. Simple as that :) My advice - don't waste your energy complaining, just use the time to practice your artwork!

thank you tuttle, your post made the most sense and had the least amount of flamatory material ;) i think that it's a freedom to speak out though. and if it's not a popular opinion, then so be it. i've always had the guts to speak out my mind and i always will. it's not a matter of learning new techniques or learning in general, it's having the cheek to put out someone else's work -as in that default texture or photoshop plug-in default- as your own. and that pisses me off. enough said, thank you for the comments and everything else. mihnea

I can see were you're coming from to an extent but on the other hand if the default stone wall texture suits the wall I'm building why should I waste time creating something different? Does it make my piece of art any less worthy? There are plenty of images that seem to fit the poser + someones sword model type of thing here but IMHO that's just part of the place.

So, since I don't make the acrylic paint I use, am I stealing someone else's work?

a question to drac... did you post this attack just to get comments or to be noticed? if so then drop it, it'll do you more harm than good. now if your really serious on your attack on the newbies (which im part of) then theres a problem that you should look at. AS to what every one else said, we could never be judges of what good art is and what is not. If you want to be in a community of pros try posting on one of the sites that only caters pros and the best in the industry, two sites come to mind. Those sites screen the images and only post the really good ones,. at least there you coud test your own mettle and see if you fit in. Renderosity is different. Its a "Build Up" Community that helps out newbies develop into pros... just like yourself. I've been in your page and i've seen that you developtment as an artist has been tremendous, you were also a newbie, using defualt textures and simple booleans, and so are these NEWBIES since they just stumbled on the program. Let me Illustrate that to you. My first artwork on bryce had my whole family praising me and telling me it was Beautiful, But to tell you the truth, everytime i came back and looked at my first render, i could say that man o man i suck big time. So is with this community, we "build up" each other so that someday we become like the big ones... and for the piracy thing, well to be honest, i downloaded my 1st bryce on a p2p site, learned from it, and bought the real one which im using now. Cut them some slack drac, though bryce is cheap there here in ur palce and some other places, it cost a fortune! My Bryce actually cost 60 times the price of bryce in our own currency. You just can't deny an artist not to do great art since he doesnt have money... if he really loes the progrma he will in time buy the real one. i do hope that you would reconsider your comments, your a good person i know, and your just concerned of the image of renderosity, but we can't deny the fact that well, 90 percent of us are newbies... besides if you really want be be better, join the monthly challenge! that way you can be a pro nuff said! peace pple! DAMN I love this Community!

I'm in it for fun. And there's so much free software out there, why risk your hard drive going for warez? I've been using it for about a year now (thank Uncle Sam for the refund, sadly it was the last one..), but I keep getting distracted by the other stuff. Of course, I drag everything into Bryce anyway..it can be a sickness..the thousand+ textures, the obps, yeah, you know me..sorry, there was a song in there somewhere..;)
The one thing I think makes the qualitative cut is the amount of time and effort you put into it. I really do this as a hobby, and my stuff is hit or miss (about 187 hits, down to a more typical 15..;), and if I really was going for the ultimate pic, I'd probably get a lot better.
I'm going to get better anyway, thanks to this forum, and whatever comments folks leave (I also thank or explain toanyone who leaves comments, as a courtesy). I leave comments on stuff I like, there's too much stuff to go around to every pic. If I see something I think can be fixed, I'll explain, best I can, as to how it can change. And sometimes, some folks, the slightest hint of criticism, whether destructive of instructive, will get you your head on a platter (the stitches are killing me..;), which is a shame. I'll take the meanest form of criticism you guys can dish out, provided you tell me how I can make it better..as the sign says, 'your helpful comments'.

eyecon, it wasn't for attention, i simply wanted to know what your opinions where on the piracy of this piece of software and if there was anyone else like me who thinks that aside from the great place renderosity is, it could get somehow better by not fooling ourselves. i don't consider myself an artist. fuck, i'm not even willing to sell my stuff in this place, despite knowing that it's steadily getting better. i don't think that people who haven't bought the software -and here i made the rather unfortunate comparison to newbies, however i still think it's relatively true- are supposed to sell their stuff. end of story. like i noticed this guy selling default photoshop planet textures. it pissed me off. the plugin is called lunarcell for crying out loud... and you buy the work off him? for what he did in a day by just messing with defaults??? it's shareware! things like that piss me off. simple as that. SOME of the people who start off here have not bought the program. that's fine if they're here to make something and not to reap financial benefits. that's my main point. nukeboy, have you been eating the paint too? there's a completely different argument at stake here.

Damn, I wish someone would have told me that Bryce was not a "pro" package before I went and sold enough prints created with it to see me through the summer flyfishing season... Sorry guys, but I think elitism in any form has no place in ANY forum using ANY software. If you use a 5 dollar hammer or a 50 dollar hammer, the house you build can still fall down just as fast without the skills to build it sound. The software is just a tool. It is the proficiency and ability/talent you demonstrate with the tool at hand which defines success not the price you pay for the box. Only talent could be defined as a mostly inherent trait. The rest is learned either by trial and error or by direct instruction. Don't blame or also unduly credit the brush for the vision of the artist. A folk artist in southern Mississippi who painted with brushes made entirely by himself with paints left over from construction sites made it do a gallery showing and when asked "That is a stunning piece. Did you paint that?" and he replied "Well sir, it sho nuf din pain iself." What do you think the reply of well funded modern artist would be? Any different because of the brushes and paints he used? Aside from grammar and syntax, I seriously doubt it. Additionally along the same vein of thought, I have to say that setting "standards for display" in any one of the galleries ("either post something worth looking at or don't post at all") is a level of elitism that not only eliminates, but discriminates against anyone who does not live up to some vague variable standard set by god knows who, that asks the new artist to jump through moving hoops of fire when he/she should be enjoying, expressing and improving themselves. There is absolutely nothing wrong with coddling or patting on the back a new artist that has posted something that you would not use to wallpaper an outhouse. Anyone with eyes can see the possibilities with the software as demonstrated by many artists all over this site, and with the bar set so high most of those budding "newbie" artists may need more of a small boost in self esteem to reach those heights using their own abilities to self criticize, rather than a swift harsh kick in the ass or someone cheering - "if you can't jump this high then don't bother". Just a thought. :)

Quote from Draculaz: "like i noticed this guy selling default photoshop planet textures. it pissed me off. the plugin is called lunarcell for crying out loud... and you buy the work off him? for what he did in a day by just messing with defaults??? it's shareware!" Hey, I wouldn't buy it, too. But if he can sell it, than just let him sell it (if it is legal) - call him "lucky bastard" and let him make his business. What's the problem with that? If someone's buying this stuff, he (the buyer) doesn't deserve anything else. I wouldn't buy or sell something like that, but if someone's doing it - well, that's his business. Greets, Jimi

"Damn, I wish someone would have told me that Bryce was not a "pro" package before I went and sold enough prints..." Of course it's not a pro package! That's not elitism, it's a fact. I'm sure Giger could produce better artwork than most people using a burnt stick, it doesn't mean that burnt sticks are the choice of professionals. I'll stand 100% by the point about the Max, SI, Lightwave, Maya etc. The very fact they cost thousands in their most basic form - tens of thousands for comprehensive versions - clearly means they are indended for the very best, the pro's. People might disagree, but in my eyes, if you produce something using top end software it'd better have a top end look. If the kid next door buys an old Vauxhall but can't drive it very well I'll say "You're doing OK, keep practicing". If the same kid buys a Ferrari I'll say, "You're an idiot."

People DO develop talents. They also discover new talents. Bryce is an awesome software to start, and Renderosity is an awesome place to start (and continue) growing. I'm glad that most of us here leave encouraging remarks to neophytes. Of course honest but friendly/constructive critique really helps. Newbies are like children. You can't judge children with the same standards as adults. We were all newbies once, children... in art, some grow faster than others. I'm glad I got very kind comments on my first posting here I would never have continued trying to improve myself without them.

"We were all newbies once..." Hey, some of us still are ;)) And seeing as I'm about to start my first ever 2D image, I hope everyone will keep the "kind comments" thing in mind :)))) (Just kidding BTW)

Dont get me wrong Simon, I think your great and I'm the last one who would pick a fight with you :) I think we can just agree to disagree on this one.. And maybe Im just an easily confused hairless chimp :) but using the logic I interpret from you, being that you are starting your first 2D image, if you use an expensive pencil (ferrari) then those of us who have sketched for years should just expect you to produce a masterpiece with a "top end look" and at the same time call you an idiot cause its your first 2D and you bought a ferrari without knowing how to handle it.. but if you use a cheap pencil (Vauxhall) we should praise your work and offer helpful advice on improvement at the same time expecting and accepting your work to be sub-par because of your choice of tools? For me Bryce is in fact a "pro" tool because it has been paying my bills for some time now. However just because it is not "the choice of professionals" somehow makes it a lesser tool? I legally own most of the other software you mention as being "pro" but I keep coming back to Bryce because it is the choice of THIS proffesional, and again I reitorate that it's not the tool that makes the art. Anyone can dig through my gallery and call it a heap of crap, but the tool did not by default make them. I did. So blame me and me alone. Anything else is if not elitism then at the very least a loose form of tribalism that has little logical foundation to stand on. But, now your adding a new complication to the mix in that only professionals (or those capable of producing professional works) should use professional tools thereby producing work worth looking at. By that same logic I should call a plumber to have him pour "professional strength Drano" drain cleaner in my bathtub or perhaps hire a trained chef to chop my onions with my set of "professional grade" kitchen knives or have a dentist come to brush my teeth every morning because 4 out of 5 of them choose the same toothpaste I do, because I might screw it up and not do as good a job, so why even bother. Just healthy, good humored debate my friend :) And yes you are very right Alvin, talent alone can be developed and discovered as well, but without at least the slightest bit of "diamond in the rough" to start with, rubbing away at a pile of manure is still going to result in nothing more than polishing a turd. :) Boy, that DryFly is just an argumenative guy today aint he? :) Best to all..back to work fer me now.. :)

Drac, I think you just need to vent sometimes and you are very lucky to have such a family that loves you.:)

Hey, Fly, no probs! My debating sometimes sounds more serious than it is (just ask some of the people in Forum News!) No offense intended :) "being that you are starting your first 2D image, if you use an expensive pencil (ferrari) then those of us who have sketched for years should just expect you to produce a masterpiece with a "top end look" and at the same time call you an idiot cause its your first 2D and you bought a ferrari without knowing how to handle it.." Absolutely! I might talk crap, but I do practice what I preach! :)))) See, I went out and bought a Wacom last week, never having done a full 2D image before, so you're dead right - if I screw it up then I am an IDIOT! I should've practiced first, at least with a pencil! But I just posted it (in Bryce for some reason) so feel free to go along and rip it to shreds! But more seriously (slightly), my point was just that if a person can't use the hobbyist tools, then they can expect a bit of stick if they skip straight to the more expensive pro tools and try and compete with the "masters". I suppose it doesn't really matter with things like kitchen knives, although if you cut your finger off with them I might well laugh a little! :) (Joking - I wouldn't really!)

Aye, I've been watching and reading this post for some time now. I'm certain, draculaz, that you have ego problems. I'm equally certain that we all do. And even more positive that mine are much more obnoxious and greater than yours, Drac! Thus, my ridiculous screen name, for example. I do like your works, but with only a few exceptions, most of us are newbies. Compared to my own top 20 favorites? Most of the stuff posted in the galleries is clown shoes. But it's not JUST a commercial site. It's a learning experience. And if I actually posted what I thought about every newbie using stock textures and doing in two days what you or I could do in two minutes, then people would like me even LESS than they don't now! Lay your fears to rest, just because much of the "art" posted here is not up to par, doesn't make you any less of a person, or an artist. Do your thing, my friend. And if some of the other people's art sucks... Well that's why it's a clickable gallery, and not a lengthy slideshow! YOU get to pick whose art you view. Know what I mean? And who knows, maybe after Bryce 12 comes out, we will be able to use these newbie's machines in a huge network rendering situation, online. Wouldn't THAT be a fitting reward? (grins devilishly) If people view Bryce work as generally unprofessional, or unfit, then it is up to you and me and the other dedicated Brycers to change that, by training waves of awesome Brycers. A simple tip or two, at the right time, can change anyone's perspective... May you always find water and shade, my friend.

I agree with Colette, you ARE very lucky that everyone here takes your rants (all on the same subject I might add) with a grain of salt....so get off the pedestal and quit being elitist, or post your works to the Big Boy's sites....