Ahh, yes I recognize the "anasazi" reference now. Thank you!

Well, enjoy yourself!

I, for one, will be sad if people start turning off comments out of fear of receiving one of your very public and unsolicited 5000-character critiques.

Merry Christmas!

Message edited on: 12/24/2004 23:37

yvw! I just happened to really like the name, and it made me think of them. :) Well, I seriously doubt that little ole me will have that sort of impact. But one never knows. I sorta hope it will make for a lot more really good pictures. And Merry Christmas :)

I think it's always helpful to me when if someone likes one of my images that they give a little explanation as to what it was that they liked about it. And I do appreciate helpful comments for improving because, as was stated above, sometimes you look at something so long you don't see the areas that need improvement and it's always nice to have fresh eyes to see with. I did like the way you combined praise with helpful comments of where improvements could be made. As for ratings, it's such a habit for me to click that box each time that I do so without thinking. And as also has been said, they really don't mean much in the scheme of things and I will try to remember not to check mark that box! I have no problem with someone leaving comments to better my work. Or, if you like it, leaving a comment as to why. I have to admit that I do get more comments in that area, especially when it comes to lighting, composition or my "style", and that lets me know what caught the viewer's eye and if I've achieved what I set out to do. I rarely do postwork on my images beyond the fixing of a joint or bend because my goal has always been to do as much as I possibly could within Poser itself. For me, that's the challenge. Merry Christmas right back at ya!

The only way you'll know, is when you do it. I agree, it should make for some good reading, here in the forum. If your skin is thick enough, go for it. I remember my first critique on my very first image. I didn't think it was that bad. I also didn't know what post work was either. LOL. Now, I don't get many comments, but I leave whats said. If it has any real value I'll think on it, if not, Oh Well. Quote " I can't believe you've seen a "good" or "great" in any of the galleries, when I still allowed ranking, everything I posted was "excellent" and I think I've maybe seen one or two images on thsi site ranked less than excellent." Have you looked anywhere besides the top 20? Guess I must be real bad, I don't have everything rated as excellent. When I get a comment or rating that is. What's that saying, " It's great to be good or good to be great?"

I think that if you want to comment then do it, if you don't want then do not. I am opened for comments and always enable comments and rating of pictures, on the other side I rarely post a comment.

Go ahead and do it! I'm still learning this game and frankly I could use a lot more of the feedback you're talking about - not just to point out errors but, if possible, to suggest ways forward. Whilst the odd 'well done' is very gratifying, it would help me progress a lot faster if more folk would pick apart what I'm doing now. So, speaking for myself, I'd consider it a favour if someone took the time to that - they would get words of thanks, not anger!

That's what the bloody comments thing is FOR!! :] Fish

Jumping in kinda late here..... but it really is quite simple. If people don't want constructive criticism they don't tic the comment box. End of story. I, for one, look forward to such comments and usually solicit them openly, either in my comments area or one of the e-mail groups I belong to. That said (and holding on for dear life), I welcome any and all constructive criticism on any of the renders in my modest gallery.

what you see in your mind , might not be what the person that created the image sees in theirs, your lights should be brighter, the shadows are to dark...maybe the lights and shadows are exactly how the person intended them to be. Basically the constructive criticism here is telling another person, how you would like their pic to be done. If you like the pic fine, if not move on, unless asked for critiques. This is only on my own experience, but those that have left criticisms for improvment on my pics,should be asking me for help and not offering it. Just being honest, i know that's not popular here these days. :(

ynsean, Oh boy, that new year is going to ring in with a bang. heehee. It depends on what you would have fun doing. The galleries aren't really great for criticism, only cuz most people post their stuff to show it off. Depite the rendo box/text I don't think many artists post for critiques. Sometimes I would send ideas to the artist via IM instead. Merry Xmas Anton

If you ever view any of my renders please feel free to comment on how to do things better, that is how we learn isnt it. Im sure there are things that someone else sees that I missed or may have not even thought about. Ed

I prefer public critiques. This is supposedly an art site. If art critique doesn't belong here, I don't know what does.

If it's out in the open, everyone can read it, including others that might benefit from the advice. It can also be a "reality check" on the critique. Others can offer their own takes, whether supporting the criticism or supporting the work as it stands. (My personal rule of thumb: If one person doesn't like it, well, that's just one opinion. If two people don't like it, it could be just a fluke. If three people don't like it, change it immediately. ;-)

Jumping in REAL late here..... Yanno, I noticed there was a complaint about a critisim someone gave another artist about their render. The critique was in good taste, nice and polite and while it was constructive critisism, the person who commented also pointed out the good as well. By the way the artist and some had taken the pros and cons of the work, it was the end of the world, and in their next piece they claimed how they were going to disable their comments, all because they felt they were being picked on by that one comment. Surely the only purpose in marking the comments box isn't to get glowing praise. Personally, thats why I mark the comments box. Not that it isn't nice to get praise, but it is also very nice to hear how I can improve. Sure there are going to be people who take it to a whole new extreme on both sides...people being too touch about a comment to improve, or someone being completely anal and nit picking a piece you did to death, but most the critique comments I have seen are in good taste and very polite, and they point out the good things too. I say more power to ya....and maybe this isn't just you should be doing, but everyone else as well.

Thanks for the critique of my "Serpent Mage" pic, ynsaen. I just IM'ed you about it but thought I'd say here that this is exactly the sort of the thing I'm looking for when I check the "make comments" box. Very helpful and I certainly appreciate the advice you gave and will keep it in mind. Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and a prosperous New Year!

Message edited on: 12/25/2004 12:30

I prefer public critiques. This is supposedly an art site. If art critique doesn't belong here, I don't know what does. hey, that was well said! Anton, thank you :) yeah, I don't think a lot of people do realize what that box says. Being the "crusading" sort, though, maybe I can remind 'em? Over the last few years, the forums have gone from being fun, silly places to being serious, on into racous and ugly, and now have begun to "mature" into something better than they were when the place first started (and this is most especially true of this one). Even this last septemeber wasn't all that bad (though november sucked a bit), and the last big blowup was actually really calm, all things considered. Time to take some of that growth into the rest of the site. While this once was an artists community, it is now an Art Community, which means the focus is no longer on the people, but on the work. And there are all these other sites out there, many of whom condemn renderosity as some sort of pisswater that doesn't give a damn about talent and embraces the skin of the moment. Well, I disagree. Strongly. And, since I'm not able to do much else, lol, I figure I'll do my part this way. It won't mean diddly in the long run, but it will certainly make me feel like I'm contributing to the community more, and hell, it might help some others. Might hurt a few too. But as that crazy man who has such great taste in clothing said in a movie many moons ago: you can make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. Bwahahahahahahahahaha

Very welcome, Byrdie.
And thank you, very much. Despite the thick skin, dense skull, and slightly acidic blood, I don't actually want to hurt people.

Well, not much. Edit: missed the IM so far, but the system's a bit flaky of late.

Message edited on: 12/25/2004 12:36

thanks :) The example you gave is why I'm asking. Before I do this, I want folks to know that I am not to either extreme, for one, and I want to guage how pervasive that sort of mentality is. And I agree, too -- it would be Really Nice if a lot of people did this. Might take six months, but I fell very, very certain that if enough people did it, then the spirit would change, and the galleries would become something to take much more seriously, while still allowing for a lot of the fun :)

re: beryld - I go through the Writer's and Poser galleries the most and I am serious, on ranked images (even one's I think are "good") I think I've only seen one or two marked LESS than excellent... I do also view the "all galleries" when I've got extra time as well :> annemarie2: I do believe what you are referring to was in response to comments I've made on certain images... and if that is so, you'll note the artist has basically said "no critiques" without straight out saying it on a more recent image they've done. cara

The more I read, the more I think about. If you happen to be a person who agrees more with cliff-dweller than myself, for example, then speak up. Present your thoughts. And if you don't well, let me know that, too. I'm slowly going through and sort of "practicing" this with a few of the posters who have specifically said they would like it if I do so (but not those who are saying otherwise). Takes a good 30 minutes to consider an image, another 15 to write something approaching an intelligent assessment, then another 15 minutes of checking the two to be sure nothing is overboard (I'm not trying to wreck an image, I'm trying to make it better). So I can't exactly do a lot of them. I'm also going to really only do it to images that capture my attention. So if you have been hit by me so far -- let me know if it was of value or not, and if I touched any nerves (even if only a little). Heck, I want to do this well.

Are you going to do the Writer's Gallery too? cara

I should; probably will. The problem is that there the work is closer to my own, and the nature of literary criticism is very different from that of visual art crit. I can achieve a bit of distance from visual art. I don't hae an urge when I see pictures to really try and make it myself over again to do it better -- indeed, I'm more often inspired to write something by what I see visual (such is the case with the anniemation piece I'm evaluating right now). I can't say the same about writing, though. Means that I'm not going to be as objective, and I'm reticent to endeavor to do things where my objectivity is limited. This would be really brought to the fore by much of the poetry in the writers forum. I am fairly certain I would not be able to maintain an effective objectivity when faced with some of the poems, as I tend to be too great a purist there myself, and would not be able to effectively offer effective criticism of the non-linear, meterless works. Outside of the poetry, however, I might just hit a few, lol. Mostly, however, I will stick to the poser gallery, venturing into some of the others as time ad opportunity are afforded me -- I still have to stay within the bounds of what I know, and critiquing a cinema 4D piece is a bit outside my scope technically -- all I would be able to address is the core elements visually.

Quick thoughts.... Right now comments, let alone lengthly comments, look out of place in the galleries. The nail that sticks out tends to get hammered down -- which translates to those people who attempt a complete an honest critique getting a lot of flack in return. What we need is for critiques to not stand out. I think I've seen a little more lately -- which might be more due to me leaving the main galleries alone and concentrating more on the SF and historicals, wherein are artists more used to the critical proccess. The other is that critiques are even harder to digest then they are to make. I'd reccommend finding one or two strong, clearly identifiable problems, with fairly straightforward solutions. It's easier to swallow a couple bitter pills then to sit down at a bowfull of them. Of course not all artists or images will have such. I can think of one who came to chat, for instance, who did not understand perspective in the most basic way. She could not be helped with a "try a lighter background and turn on anti-aliasing" approach. In the perfect pedagogical manner, of course, one points at the problem and leads the student to find their own solution. When I critique I am usually careful to phrase something like "..I have seen other artists solve this with..." or "...if this were my image I might....but I don't know if this would work for you."

Yes. Please. Pretty please. Constructive criticism with suggestions for improvement is always, always appreciated. One note though: Keep in mind the gallery the item is posted in. Artists posting in Product Showcase are probably more concerned with comments about the product, as opposed to the technical detail of the picture itself (as an example). Although I'd love for you comment on anything I've got posted.

I have just read your comment on my image, over my morning coffee lol, and you certainly know what you are talking about :o) You found my weakness - complete scenes - an area I am working on my other weakness is interaction between characters. until recently I have stuck to the safety zone of portraits and plain backgrounds but I learn nothing this way. I will re read your comment often - thank you Chris :o) ps don't you just hate them poser joints rofl

I got a critique today, too. An unexpected Christmas present. :-) The first problem she pointed out was in fact something that bugged me about the image from square one. I just didn't know how to fix it. (She offered a suggestion I hadn't considered.)

no muse -- yeah, that's why I liked the earlier suggestion of a place specifically for that sort of work. But, until we get one (and the only way to do that is to prove to them that one is wanted and would be used, lol). pdxjim -- True. My plans right now are to stick mostly to the poser gallery itself, as that's the area I'm going to tend to frequent. Chrislenn -- absolutely hate them, lol. I'll spend more time futzing with those damn joints than I will lighting an image! That's the sort of thing I'm wanting to do, and I'm very glad it worked for you. Randym77 -- dynamic cloth might work, too. That's strand hair!!! Holy cow! That's awesome! I'll bet that took some time! And again, thank you! My best friend is online and my family has come over, so I'll likely be off for a day, but I'll come and check in off and on ;) huggs and merry christmas to all!

Here's what I do, Ynsaen, and I've never been called a troll or made people too mad. Many have actually thanked me. #1 I first always mention something good about the render-- if there is nothing I can say good about the render, I move on and say nothing at all, it's too bad to comment on. #2 I gently comment on the most offensive problem, knees cracking, cloth/hair poke through, shadow problems-- mentioning I've done this often myself. #3 If the render is a good one but needs a different perspective-- like an interesting camera angle, better lights, I'll mention that, suggest some possibilties, if I can, If I can't I honestly say I don't know how to fix this that or the other thing. I limit my comments to three to four issues-- including the good ones, which can be considered one if there's lots that's good-- because most people, including me can't keep more than that in their heads and too many thngs wrong sounds like everything was crap. Other than that, kindness, honesty, humility-- in that you don't sound like you'r the greatest renderer of all time telling a poor newbie how to fix their pathetic shit, are the key points. Try to only comment on work you have some respect for, and let that respect show-- people will listen. And if they don't, you have done your best. Never hurts to say it too often-- Always begin with What Is Right in the Render!! Go for it, kid, you have kindness in your soul and honesty to burn. You are also IMO eminently respectful, let that show and you can insert helpful criticism in the galleries without doing harm. Or starting a war. Emily

Me, I'm all for constructive criticism. If it can't be helpful then don't bother is my thought lol. Now having said that, I do like praise but only if it is deserving.

Constructive criticism is the reason I post images. I know that in my case, I am literally "too close to the work" to see where it really needs help; that's where I depend on the observer to help me out. And, if that observer is as skillful as Ynsaen, then I am very thankful to get the suggestions without having to pay a consultant's fee. If I were afraid that someone would/will trash my images, wouldn't I be foolish to hang the picture on the wall in the first place? Ynsaen, if you were to post comments about an image of mine that pointed-out where improvements could be made, I would be happy that you had taken the time to look, and then I would be grateful for your instruction. Isn't this called 'teaching'?

CONSTRUCTIVE criticism,yes as long as suggestions on how the percieved problem(s)can be fixed are given as well. Happy Yule

Thanks for the critique of one of mine, ynsaen. This is exactly the sort of thing I'm after (I also responded by commenting to your comments - I think that's the best place to do that rather than by IM, unless of course you have a specific beef with the author).

@queri: I absolutely agree with you. I only comment on pictures I like somehow. Sometimes I would make things differently and I do suggest that. On the other hand, I do it the way you do it. @ynsaen: You can always comment on the pictures in my gallery. I love constructive critics. This helps me improving. Sometimes I may see it differently, but that's ok. It also helps if one not only says 'this is bad', but also gives practicle hints on how to improve it.

Re: "Should I or shouldn't I?" Um ... maybe ................ only your hairdresser knows for sure. (exits rapidly - stage left ... touche, all the way, ... etc., etc., etc. ...) ;=]

ynsaen,

Sorry, couldn't resist it.

;=]

cagewench:) how perceptive you are :) Yes I was refering to comments you had made and the "tar and feather" response you seemed to get from them. Your comment didn't deserve the lashing out you took over it. I do truly believe that if someone doesn't want any kind of critique they need to disable the comments. I don't need to be told what I should or shouldn't say in my comments about anothers work as long as I am polite and civil....so I will continue posting what I want to say, regardless of whether or not is what others want to hear. I hope you do the same:)

That I shall :> What kills me in a certain circumstance is that ppl get pissy when you make honest comments just because everyone else is being over-the-top with superficial (and often undeserved) praise, because it makes the honest comments look nasty. And re: that person, I've commented on most of that person's images since I joined the site and it's not like I made some radical change in how I commented, other than no longer using :) faces after I got a couple of persnickety IMs :> cara

I would like constructive criticism on my renders. I'm fairly new to Poser...well I've had it about a year, but I still feel very much like a newbie. I haven't done a ton with it yet, but I feel like I am making some progress from when I started.

I have P4. The problem is many times I sorta know what is wrong, but I have no idea how to change/fix etc whatever it is :(

One of my renders (ironically the one with the most views I think..I haven't looked at my gallery in a while) I know what the problem is (no shadows), but I didn't know how to do them even though several people made suggestions about having shadows.

So I would like constructive criticism along with some clue on how to actually implement fixes.

Emily -- that's pretty much my general habit -- I work off the perception of if someone were to critique my work, what would be useful to me. I do try to make it useful stuff. OTherwise the point to it seems more akin to being a movie critic, and one can fall into that trap all too easily. pteryx, Thanks :) I don't know how much I can actually teach, but heck, if I can get more good pics to look at, I'll be thrilled. Spedler, yvvw!I shall check out your response soon :) Singular3D, the best thing about this sort of stuff, as well, is that if you, as the artist, see things differently, then, heck, there's no harm, no foul, and no hurt. Often, critics will miss the point of the artist's effort. It then behooves the critic to pay more attention to the artist in turn. Geep -- remind me not to give you the name of my hairdresser. hee hee. Strixowl -- yep. That's the challenge that I have. Towal, I'll give it my best shot :) I know that when I was first finally posting stuff, I ended up having to go elsewhere for good advice -- and I'd been using poser about two years already. My efforts were terrible. Truly. It was only conscious effort on my part to learn the basics of art, and to get specific criticisms on those elements, that I finally began to improve. Time for me to sorta repay that favor.

I am just getting to where I actually can pose things (sorta) on my own. It takes me hours to do a pose sometimes and I know that some of that is because I'm doing things the hard way probably.

I am starting to learn better what moves what and how so it's worth it. I still use a lot of premade poses to get me started though.

I enjoy the program. I have spent way to much on it for what I do, but at least this collection doesn't take up physical space in the house much to my husband's delight ;)

It usually takes me days to complete one render (I'm always sorta shocked when people are upset about the 1 upload per day. I can't even manage 1 render a day that I feel is worth posting 3 would be out of the question), but I have fun doing them (for the most part) and really that is all that matters to me.

If I can improve I would certainly like to, but as long as I have fun doing it and I enjoy my renders even though they are imperfect that is what is most important in the long run, I think.

If you do get time to look at any of my pictures I will certainly take what you say in the manner which it is given and not as a personal attack.

I think my later renders have fair improvements over my start..at least they have shadows now ;)

My friend is the world's suckiest artist. And when you tell him his art sucks (and it really does), he gets inspired to create even suckier art. Go figure.

Towal, You may already be doing this, but just in case... I've found I can pose quicker when I use the dials than when I use the tools. I've also found that applying symmetry saves time in certain poses. Finally, I've found that turning IK on and off as required can significantly speed things up. ynsaen I love constructive criticism. One of my regrets is that the animation section isn't set up for it. Sometimes I've used IM's to offer suggestions but I rarely post criticism in the gallery. Of course, that could be because I rarely go to the gallery. I can usually find something I like about an image, so when I do offer criticism, I address both the good and the 'other.' I do my best to make sure and emphasize that it's merely my opinion and speak 'tentatively' ("I think it might be a bit more dramatic if you... ...assuming that's what you're going for."). I don't mention any 'other' without a suggestion for how I'd improve it. I also say 'why' I think it would be an improvement. That is, unless someone is asking about a specific thing, in which case I may simply address that. Some people say - in the comments section of their image - that they welcome feedback. Those would be the ones most likely to be receptive to constructive criticism. There's probably enough of them to keep you busy for a long time. I love red hair!

I'd welcome your comments. Another viewpoint is always useful, even if I disagree with it.

Noted, SamTherapy. I get free time again tomorrow, so I'll keep going through the respondents as I see what comes out down the line :)

Here's an example of what can occur though when you are honest... my comment on an image in the Poser gallery: "The darkness and the dark colours are nice... The pose from the breasts up looks good, from below the breasts and to the tops of her interesting footwear though, it looks a lil off. Mainly the pose of the left leg in the hip and crotch area. Nice use of shadow on the right palm and lighting on the left one." which resulted in the following comment made by the artist in the comment area of the image: "Thanks everyone much appreciated 1 neg doesn't matter guys hugs to all and mods do not delete any comments without letting me know why:) everyone has a right to their own opinion thanks" And an IM I received from the artist as well: "...most of the time I do not adjust their work mainly because they have some strange poses and can't change them to much without really messing them up and didn't on this one not with the tendrils frankly not really sure who's poses they were thats why I did not list them as it is I try to get the main people . I know your only trying to help but I really wish you just message me instead of pointing out every little tiny bit of what you consider incorrect. we all have our own likes and dislikes so your one out of 37 positive ones doesn't really matter.. so many have message me and think those kind of comments are funny oh well each to their own I guess I certainly am not trying to get you mad at me I think you still are and always will be to bad too we could have been good friends. We are all here to have fun and enjoy each others work sadly some do not see it that way." so, just be prepared :> and, no, I'm not saying who the artist is and I did cut out the identification of who the artist said created the pose that they used in their image. cara who, for the record, does not dislike the unnamed-artist... just thinks that said artist needs honest comments

and a p.s. to clarify something in my above reply... I think that where the unnamed-artist says: "and mods do not delete any comments without letting me know why:)" is in ref to the fact that on an older image, someone related to the artist by marriage later commented and called me a "sick-o" which resulted in my asking a mod to delete the comment since it was personal rather than about the image... :> cara

I rarely post in the gallery. Part of the reason is the sheer volume of new stuff that is added each day. It's easy for your new stuff to get totally lost, quickly. I rarely visit the galleries for the same reason: way too much stuff, and I don't have the time to keep up. The biggest problem in the past has been that far too many people just don't grasp the concept of "Constructive Criticism." If you say something like "Your image looks crappy," that is not constructive. Some people will just never understand, no matter how much you try to explain. If I do visit the galleries, I don't feel compelled to leave an exhaustive criticism. Maybe I just like the way it looks, or the sense of humor. When all is said and done, I spend more time working with Poser, fixing and organizing things than I do "making pictures," and most of the images I make are never seen in any gallery.

I usually have a limited amount of time to comment, so that means I usually comment on something that I'm really impressed with, or if a new user has asked for comments that would help them improve. It's very rare that I comment otherwise.

Well I posted a new one...and it is my first attempt at cloth painting by hand...so everyone please feel free to comment and give any advice ya can lol I am gonna need it.

Cage...sorry you are catching the raw end of that deal...it would seem that some only want glowing praise when they mark the comment box, unfortunately we are not all mind readers. Maybe 'osity needs to make a little check box for that when uploading pictures.

Please place your comments, BUT only if it is to say how wonderful my picture is....if you point out anything wrong we will take you out back and beat the crap outa ya! (sounds kinda tacky huh?)

Message edited on: 12/29/2004 16:47

Being dissed as in the example provided isn't an issue. It looks like the person in the example would be what is considered unarmed collateral. Fairly obvious a nerve was struck. In general, I don't post often to the galleries here, myself. At present, I have a gallery here, at RDNA, and then I also have pretty much the full run of the galleries at Odd Ditty Foundry, as well. So what little I produce that isn't already owned by someone else is usually experiments and tests. But I learned a great deal from looking at the good stuff here. Once I learned the basics -- composition, color, lighting, blah blah blah -- I was able to study the best stuff available here and learn things. Good place to learn. So when someone does decide that my critiques are of the "sicko" variety, and forgets the motivations behind my doing so, well, they are most certainly entitled to their beliefs. Sanity does strange things to people. (and ya'll know that if they jump me, I'm likely to reach around and bite.) The sheer volume of images is why I don't expect that little ole me, by myself, is going to have much of an impact on the galleries as a whole. We're talking about maybe 12 images a week. If 9 out of those 12 people find my efforts to have been of service to them, well, that's enough to justify it in my mind. And because I will only be able to check 12 or so images a week, I will most likely only comment on those images which attracted my attention. For my part, I am reaching outside of the normal bounds of my personal tastes. Such is the task I have set for myself in the new year. It joins my "real life" (which, oddly enough, is mostly online), Odd Ditty Foundry, Wyrlde: The Bleak Journey, RuntimeDNA, some efforts here outside of that one, forum trolling through here, DAZ, and Faeriewylde, and whatever new and exciting opportunities the new year may bring. It's a full plate, to be sure. But I've got a big appetite for it. Now to see if I can stomach it all...

annemarie2: LOL, I've thought that (and possibly said it somewhere) too :> ynsaen: good luck with it all :>:>:> cara