Quote - Ok let me post a negative one in a positive. I want to be able to show what Genesis can do. ;)

There are a number of excellent threads in DAZ's forums on this.   Genesis is indeed cutting edge technology for quite a variety of uses.   

To get you started there is the main Genesis Render Thread (70+ pages and counting):

http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=165191

Then there is Genesis' product page, which gives many of the technologies involved:

http://www.daz3d.com/i/products/genesis?

There is a really good video by Rand (yes the same Rand who started this thread) and another artist which is on DAZ's video channel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQON0BWRxCs

here's the channel itself:

http://www.youtube.com/user/WWWDAZ3DCOM?feature=watch

You should be able to see some of the neat features of the Genesis series and DS4 in those videos.

-K

Quote - > Quote - ...so basically we are "written off" because those of us on limited budgets don't have the disposable income to buy a big ticket item like a new computer every couple of years.

Ok, let me get this right. You actually are upset that Daz will not cater to your OLD computer and to make this concession because you can't afford to buy a new computer??. You must be joking ;). I hope you don't mind if I say so, but that is beyond ridiculous. They're a business. They can't do that. And I completely understand that and I can't afford the newest version of either DS OR Poser. However, I don't feel so entitled that I expect them to make concessions just for people like poor little me. shakes head

Laurie

I think a more sensible point (rather than the specifics of a individual user's computer) that DAZ might address with us is the subject of resource utilization.   I'm blessed with a fast workstation and oodles of memory.  DAZ has made claim in the past (I thought) that it was more resource efficeint that Poser in several areas; a principle example being it's dynamic loading of morphs.   I have not found in my own testing a substantive different between Poser 9 and DS4 in terms of memory usage.   Your milage may vary, of course.  

However, I used inexpensive, older computers as render nodes that don't have oodles of memory and some are pretty dated.   Questions for DAZ:

• When will we see network rendering in DS4?  Not even the pro version of DS4 seems to support this common 3D feature.
• If DAZ plans to offer network rendering, will the requirements on the render nodes be equal to or less than DS4 Pro itself.  (The question is not as facetious as it might sound on first blush--more advanced node management software leverages virtual memory/disk techniques to allow render nodes to handle big renders, albeit more slowly, than high-end workstations.)

-K

[Almost 24 posts in 12 years!   I must be going for the record today.]

Quote - [Almost 24 posts in 12 years!   I must be going for the record today.]

Quote - > Quote - Randall, do you have any "solid" information as to whether Smith Micro may reconsider making the DS4/Genesis system available within Poser, or whether there will be some sort of plug-in for Poser that would achieve the same thing? 

shouldn't you direct that question at SM and not a third party?

I would not consider DAZ-Rand as a third party, because as a spokemen of DAZ here, he is rather second or first party of all the involved parties (first party would be the developers/product managers). Second, as far as i see it, SM is a big company specializing in something having to do with mobile communications, probably nobody understands what it is good for (stockholders included), the Poser staff being only a very small part of it, probably completely fitting into one or two cubicles; DAZ on the other hand is a small company (i do not know how small, 100 people perhaps?), but working entirely on 3d stuff. So innovations and ideas and willingness to kick in some doors are more likely to come from DAZ than from SM; they not only have more time for it, but they are also courageous enough to take higher risks to do something new (as they have proven with genesis) at the cost of some compatibility issues here and there. That includes ideas of how to get genesis into other programs as well. My suggestion: when DAZ wants to get genesis into Poser they should lock one developer of DS4 and one of Poser (nobody at SM would notice someone missing there) into one room and let them figure out how to put the dsf import into Poser. Cannot be so difficult since both formats do practically the same. And of course, they should try to keep the lawyers out of it as long as possible. I have seen many good technological innovations turn into dust, just because some lawyers who make a living by inventing long and complicated contracts (NDAs and such) were involved too early.

Daz isn't even 10 people I bet...lol. If you include the PA's perhaps....

I was never quite sure how people thought Daz was this big, huge company. In the scheme of the American business landscape, it's a mom-and-pop. They are big to us, but not in the general scheme of things ;).

Laurie

Quote - ...so basically we are "written off" because those of us on limited budgets don't have the disposable income to buy a big ticket item like a new computer every couple of years.

Uh... excuse me?  Since when does any company stop development to cater to the impoverished?  Did Microsoft stop in its tracks because I couldn't afford a computer that would run Windows 7?  Did Poser stop in its tracks because I couldn't afford a computer that would run any version beyond Poser 6?

No.  So why do you expect DAZ to stop in its tracks because you can't afford a computer that will run DS4?

I was stuck for nearly two years being unable to run DS3 because I couldn't afford to buy a new computer that would run it.  Did I bitch to DAZ about that, or try to claim that it was DAZ's fault?  No.  Yes, it pissed me off, but... whose fault was it?  M-I-N-E, for not having the ability to "keep up."

Being poor sucks, and being on a limited/fixed income sucks, but guess what?  That's not the fault of companies that develop hardware or software, and trying to blame DAZ for the consequences of your own poverty is ridiculous.  Expecting DAZ (or any other company) to cater to your poverty is even more ridiculous.

We live in a world in which computer technology, both for hardware and sofware, is developing rapidly.  If you can't keep up, you get left behind.  That's just the way it is, and it's not DAZ's "fault" or anybody else's "fault."

Quote - Daz isn't even 10 people I bet...lol. If you include the PA's perhaps....

Well, DAZ is a little larger than that, but not much.  It's not a huge corporation like Coca-Cola or Microsoft or Disney.  It's a tiny company with maybe 40 or so employees-- which puts it in the category of being "microscopic."

I really don't know where people get the notion that this market is "huge," with millions upon millions of customers, or where they get the notion that DAZ is some "big corporation" on a par iwth Amazon or or Google.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Well I think it is really cool that they are expanding. You know how good that Sub-d inside all 3d graphics programs would drastically imporve things? Vue Infinite uses it ;) , And I believe Zbrush uses a form of it. Have you seen some of the art coming out of that (boy wouldn't I love buy character made with it). Think of it in the terms of progress and progress takes time and inovation (and a newer computer in some cases for it to look better). Ohh....Thats right Renderosity has a few (and Daz I'm sure).

Quote - Daz isn't even 10 people I bet...lol. If you include the PA's perhaps....

I was never quite sure how people thought Daz was this big, huge company. In the scheme of the American business landscape, it's a mom-and-pop. They are big to us, but not in the general scheme of things ;).

Laurie

I ran a business search on them a feww weeks ago which indicates that they're less than 50 employees and do $10M-$50M in business anually.  Since they're privately held, there is very little good information about them.   My own (outside sources) put the number closer to the $10M/yr side of it.   Not very big, really.

It's been hard for me to guage the size of their PA program.  I did ask once (along with sales stats to help guage the market for brokered products) and I think I got the "that's confidential" response--no point in asking questions here.   If I was to reformat that into a question for DAZ, it might be:

• Can DAZ give some idea of the size of the customer base for Genesis?  For V4/M4 products?   What is expected size of the customer base using Genesis in about six months from now?   These would be really useful to help content makers guage the market transition from Gen4 to Gen5.   3D Content development for models like V4 and V5 represent a considerable effort on the PA's part--misguessing the market can have disasterous consequences for PA.   DAZ and SM should possibly consider how they can reduce that risk.  From basic appearances, V4/M4 has a big market and runs on lots of platforms.   Genesis only runs on DS4, really just coming out of beta.   For example, a key figure technology, Geografting, only came out in an update in the last three weeks--it is not well documented from a content creator side.
   
• A more general question for DAZ: A a broker, technology provider, and content maker, what is DAZ doing to reduce the risks for brokered artists who may be venturing into Genesis technology?   [That's a softball, Rand.   Hit it out of the park!  ;)  ]

-K

Quote - Daz isn't even 10 people I bet...lol. If you include the PA's perhaps....

I was never quite sure how people thought Daz was this big, huge company. In the scheme of the American business landscape, it's a mom-and-pop. They are big to us, but not in the general scheme of things ;).

Laurie

Laurie, I've always known they were a small outfit. They merged with another company but the other company is in Israel, so that didn't add any folks. From what Randy said earlier in this thread, it sounds like they just hired a few more people to help with the workload.

I always laugh when I see someone referring to them as you might refer to say Autodesk. Many posters have some very unrealistic expectations from them. I don't as I started working in CG with Animation:Master, from Hash, Inc. which is a family run business (used to be Martin and Marshall Hash and maybe still is, with 2 or 3 programmers who doubled up on customer service and IT/website work and less than a handful of other folks. I remember when one of Martin's kids took my upgrade order on the phone!) pmG Worldwide (project messiah) is another small company. DAZ is a little bit bigger, but not much.

From their Christmas Party pics on Facebook and including folks I didn't see in the pics, probably closer to 35+ at DAZ though some folks not in the party pics may be free-lancers not based in Utah.

Kevin

Can we please remember to use the language flags when we swear, folks?  I've had to flag 3 threads tonight ;)

Quote - I have thousands of dollars worth of content from Rendo, DAZ and many dead outlets. A full terrabyte of installers. I know the horror of the DL and install. Its really no better with zip files... well maybe a little better if you could drop them all at once and batch them... but you cant because zip creators are no more consistent than installer creators.

Perhaps vendors should step in and moderatae this as they do the forums. Take an inititative for once. Make a Standardization requirement. I am sure you probably put in as many hours filtering and listening to the hate mail on bad directories structures as we do fighting with the install process. Why not save both sides time and money and start putting your foot down. Get rid of all the unwanted junk. Until vendors put their foot down and tell creators to quit being inconsistant and relate to content creators what the customers want they will never know. You have testors before you place items in your stores. That means that you are enforcing quality checks already. A standardization policy should be included also.

Quote - Its not all that interesting is it?

Ah, but that's just what you'd think we'd want you to say if you were a double-agent spy, deep undercover quietly destroying the 3d community from within for the benefit of the Bavarian Illuminati or whomever else might wish to bring the whole sh*thouse down...

(Satire)

Randall-

You mentioned that DAZ had made it a priority to issue documentation for its software. I will skip right past "It's about time" and just say "Thank you."

But I have a related suggestion. Might not DAZ put pressure on its vendors to tell customers how to use the prodiuct they just bought? The "Read Me" created by the installer usually links back to a DAZ page that thanks you for buying the product and tells you where to find the file(s) in your runtime. That's all.

Read Me pages that actually describe the use of the product and offer tips and tricks are few and far between. Is the dress superconforming? Are the morphs in the Body actor functional?  Is there a reason you supply no poses to change textures but instead require the user to go to the Material Room? And so on. A vendor should be required to offer at least a rudimentary "how-to".

Its very hard to standardize an inovation. Cars run on Steam, Gas, Electricity, or Nuclear Power, which one do we drive today? That is the problem all 3d software makers face (but standards are a choice of the masses in the long run by what they buy...lol (I brought Poser and Daz this year and I change Tires for a living and live at home with my parents).

 I completely understand the fact that there is not one single human being that looks like the other; cloning is not that advanced yet, but there are some basic anatomy rules that need to be followed for every human being. Honestly? There is not one 3D human model I've seen that is within the hobbyist's price range that follows those rules, not Genesis, not V4, not V3, not Antonia, not Jessie, not one.

I have often wondered if there's not some sort of 3d Mafia, issuing decrees from on-high that any and all hobbyist human model MUST be f**ked up in some way, in order to keep the good stuff out of the hands of the public.

Would certain technologies be withheld from the public for national security  IE if one could 3d render an animation of someone well-known doing improper things to the point of believability...maybe that's a pandora's box that they don't want to open?  (For "They" read:  Intelligencia)

Well would you consider Jeffs head moving from side to side a perfect match?....lol And that was an attempt but if you look closely....lol its just Mega Tron. Daz does give you good options in the direction (but I couldn't say because that wouldn't be artistic of me after all its a painting made by many) get it? Its not like you started from scratch to make your moving picture is it? I think I read somewhere it was called the doppelganger efect or something. I need to go farther with this......sorry.......I remember when I was about 13 or 15 and I was copying points in space (X,Y,Z cords) into an Atari Computer Modeling program (lol long process) and it made a Wire Frame Tie Fighter That I could Type in Camera Cords (remember no mice in those days) and have it view it from different angles. And then.....I shut off the computer and it was gone for good unless i typed it in again.

Quote - ...so basically we are "written off" because those of us on limited budgets don't have the disposable income to buy a big ticket item like a new computer every couple of years. ...this is the "thank you" I get for all the support I have given Daz3D over the last four years, not only with my hard earned cash, but discussion on other forums and in person with others.

...oh and I don't do computer games as I'd rather be spending my time (and money) doing something more productive and meaningful, like 3D CG.

Wow.  Hypothetically, if the entire community each donated 50 cents and bought you a new state-of-the-art computer, would you quit taking out your anger and envy on Daz?  Would all those problems magically go away? 

As far as I can tell, you're going to be able to continue to do 3dCG as you always have on your current computer, you just aren't going to be able to move along with the new developments.  That's Daz's fault?

Kerwin wrote

Quote -

When will we see network rendering in DS4?  Not even the pro version of DS4 seems to support this common 3D feature.

I believe the license DAZ has for using 3Delight is for unlimited cores on one computer. It's a variation of the license that 3Delight sells for $1,250 - much less for DAZ since features are "restricted" and it's often the previous version of 3Delight.

If you want to run 3Delight on more than one computer you have to buy a license from 3Delight (not DAZ) for each additional computer as well. It is expensive big-time movie studio software. We are very fortunate to have it.

It seems just a handful of DAZ users are trying to use 3Delight to its potential with omnifreaker in the lead. Many of his shader and light packs open limited access to some of the "restricted" 3Delight features. Many users go against the recommendations DAZ has made that came from 3Delight's makers - watch your texture sizes and be careful using raytracing as it can dramatically increase render time when used improperly. v10 of 3Delight is supposed to have increased render speed of raytracing up to 10 to 300% depending how it's used. I look forward to the day when DAZ is authorized to use it in Studio!

The last update to D|S4 made shaders more compatible with 3Delight v10. There is a long thread at DAZ explaining how to use the free 3Delight (restricted to two cores). Jump to the end for the latest info, though, because some of 3Delight free license requirements have changed. I just installed v9 and it was easy. It's a command line renderer, though, so the DOS challenged may take a couple goes.

Right now, the much more affordable and easy way is to buy additional copies of DAZ Studio for each computer you already own, or for a bit more put together a dual processor/6 core (24 thread) Xeon workstation.

Kevin

Quote - While we're on the subject of technology, what about shader tree/map compatibility with poser?   For me this has been near the #1 reason why DS4 has trouble with existing Poser content created by 3rd parties (including some DAZ brokered artists.) Cheers!

-Kerwin

You are aware of this part in the Poser manual:

Technology or content provided in part by

Portions of the FireFly renderer and associated shading technologies ©2002 by Pixels Digital, Inc.

I guess in order to make DS compatible with the Poser shader tree DAZ would probably have to obtain a licence from PixelsDigital**.** IMHO that's like asking E-on to make Vue compatible with Bryce materials or vise versa**.
**

Puntomaus wrote:

Quote - > Quote - While we're on the subject of technology, what about shader tree/map compatibility with poser?   For me this has been near the #1 reason why DS4 has trouble with existing Poser content created by 3rd parties (including some DAZ brokered artists.) Cheers!

-Kerwin

 

You are aware of this part in the Poser manual:

Technology or content provided in part by

Portions of the FireFly renderer and associated shading technologies ©2002 by Pixels Digital, Inc.

 

I guess in order to make DS compatible with the Poser shader tree DAZ would probably have to obtain a licence from PixelsDigital**.** IMHO that's like asking E-on to make Vue compatible with Bryce materials or vise versa**.
**

It probably can't be easily done. From everything I've learned about render engines, they all use shaders differently. No render engine is shader compatible with another. The best you can hope for is an approximation like what Paolo does with Reality working with Studio and LuxRender.

Quote - ...
It probably can't be easily done. From everything I've learned about render engines, they all use shaders differently. No render engine is shader compatible with another. The best you can hope for is an approximation like what Paolo does with Reality working with Studio and LuxRender.

Or what Snarly does with Pose2Lux. Let's not forget we have our own LuxRender exporter.

Quote -  I cannot answer this with any certainty, we are trying to get basic functionality in order first, then we will work on things like this.  What we would ultimately love is DAZ file format support inside of Poser, but that may or may not ever happen.  Until then it's going to be something of a workaround jury-rig kind of thing.

Whatever you guys do, please keep in mind that in orderto get people interested in more content is to let them have time to actually use it, and figure out they are missing this or that piece for their ideal scene.

In many years of using this stuff before I vecame a vendor, I can't telly you how may times, by the time I installed the content via individual installers, one by one, all my free time was gone, and I never got to actually play with it, till the next day or next week when I found some more time for the hobby, and by then the time to capture my interest was long gone.

Zip files, I can purchase 20 items, unzip them all with one right click (if I don't get into runtime sorting), and be off to play. 

I remember when I was fresh out of college way back when, and got my forst engineering job, one of my mentors was this old timer engineer. His favorite saying was "Keep it simple, stupid". While I'm aware that things can sometimes get into the extreme of too simple, in case of the installers (which are only getting more and more complicated) the erring is on the side of too much.

If DAZ has non-exclusive product, and it was shared with another store, which had the same thing, except in zip or simpler more time effective installers, I'd always get it fron the 'other store'

Quote - There are tons of ideas we can come up with. I refuse to believe that either installers or zip files are the best possible way to do it. I know better. Comfortable? Maybe, traditional? Maybe... a good user experience for new customers? Absolutely not.

From a content creator point of view, I keep hearing about all these 'new customers', and would like to know more info about DZ direction, so I can tailor my content to fit the general direction - should I choose to contimue makign content for DAZ, but can't seem to pry any kinf od information out.

This makes supporting DAZ a bad risk for me, from a business point of view. Especially considering that this is a 'take no prisoners' kind of a market, sticking you neck your neck out can be very costly. For a small vendor, it can out you out of business, which is close to happning just now.

Another thing is, DAZ keeps talking about 'new customers' but yet you're here trying to appeal to existing or recapture recently aliented customers. They don't want to hear what you want to do to accomodate someone else. It's all very confusing.

Funny thing about that....Do you realize how long joint fixes have been around and they are just starting to show up now? I seen someone trying to explain how they were done years ago (about 10 to be exact) on victoria 2. So that has been in the works for a long time (and i wouldnt say it was Daz doing or poser doing that work). I was people like you and me trying to figure it out in a community just like this one.

Quote - Right now, the much more affordable and easy way is to buy additional copies of DAZ Studio for each computer you already own, or for a bit more put together a dual processor/6 core (24 thread) Xeon workstation.

Kevin

Heh.   Already have a i7-980x 3.33Ghz w/ 24GB of RAM workstation.  I could spend another few thousand to use Dual-Xeon instead (the two CPU chips for 3Ghz six cores run towards $2500 alone--Newegg has them $1639 each for the x5680.)   I have suggested that DAZ create and overlord process to shuttle frames/renders to other DAZ studio nodes.      

In any case, SM and Maxon have provided me with very satisfactory network rendering solutions for some time.   I seem to remember that DAZ's pitch is that DS4 is superior technology to Poser (and hence I should be quick to give up on Poser and switch to DS4.)   Network rendering is apparently a convienience I need to do without in DS4.   I was hoping that it would be DAZ's job to negotiate with 3Delight.

Manually moving frames or tying up my main workstation is a pretty 1990's solution.  Of course, buying a super high-end workstation is one solution, but it doesn't let me use cheaper nodes I can pick up for less than $1000 each.  It would cut into the content budget to buy such pricy silicon to solve DAZ's licensing issues with 3Delight.

Let's see what DAZ says--the question was to them.

-K

I have an auto-immune disease myself. I feel your pain I really do. But that does not entitle you to what you ask, I'm sorry. Graves is no picnic either. I feel for you that you must deal with that from day to day, but I do not pity you for what you haven't got in the way of equipment or software. Sure, it's fun. Sure, it's a nice hobby and a creative outlet, but it's not something that you're entitled to ;). Do what I do...just lag behind and maybe you can catch up later. That's all you can do. Don't expect anyone to give it to you and don't expect anyone to lag behind because of you. It will never happen. No matter how much you whine about it. The world goes on and doesn't wait for anybody. I'm sorry if you think I misunderstood you, but it really did sound like you were complaining that they made something that didn't work on your system ;).

All is not lost. Threatening to delete all your stuff is just silly. Is there something about the software you have now that's not doing what you want? If it is doing what you want, why do you feel you need to have the latest and greatest? From my experience, it's rather underwhelming when you finally do get it, not matter what it is...lol.

As for the software being rushed out before it's really ready, I agree with you. And I think Daz and Smith Micro are both guilty of that. I have a Poser 8 that had the IDL broken with the SR3. It won't get fixed now either. And that actually broke something that WAS working...lol. Such is life.

Laurie

Reading Kerwin's rig specs makes me feel like I live in the stone ages, LOL!

Though, I tend to think I run a very tight system, very tweaked to benefit my resources and workflow.

I'm putting along with a AMD Phenom 9850 Quad-Core 2.5 GHz, 8GB Ram and 64 bit Vista, Dual monitors with GeForce GTS 450.

The above is kind of OT but like many, I'm also on a budget and I have to save up for things, consider that I have a family to take care of and budget out the things I want.  Do I need a bad a$$ed, souped-up rig?  No.  Would I like one... Absolutely!

I think anyone can pick up a fairly decent rig in the $300-$400 price range that is competent with running Poser or DS if they look around (look at places like TigerDirect, NewEgg or heck even Amazon).  Avoid on-board video (on-board sound is usually "ok") and keep in mind that you can cannibalize some of your old parts (keyboard, mouse, monitor, video card if yours is decent, etc.).  I'm likely to do a CPU/MB/RAM combo and just put it together that way when the next upgrade comes around.  I made a HUGE mistake of buying a put-together machine (branded) and I should have known better.  Just the pain of removing all kinds of trial crap is worth not dealing with that experience again.  Once I gutted it all out, things were good though. :)

Quote - > Quote - While we're on the subject of technology, what about shader tree/map compatibility with poser?   For me this has been near the #1 reason why DS4 has trouble with existing Poser content created by 3rd parties (including some DAZ brokered artists.) Cheers!

-Kerwin

 

You are aware of this part in the Poser manual:

Technology or content provided in part by

Portions of the FireFly renderer and associated shading technologies ©2002 by Pixels Digital, Inc.

 

I guess in order to make DS compatible with the Poser shader tree DAZ would probably have to obtain a licence from PixelsDigital**.** IMHO that's like asking E-on to make Vue compatible with Bryce materials or vise versa**.
**

Why yes, I was aware, but that's because I've been around both Poser since V2 and DS since V1.   But as I said in another post, achieving good compatibility between renders is certainly within reach.  Pixel-for-pixel, identical rendering with identical is not likely possible for the reason you cite, every renderer is a little different (even between versions of the same program!)

But DAZ isn't coming close.  They're not mapping even the identical Renderman-like nodes between the programs.  So, no, DAZ does not need to license Pixels Digital's tech (unless they want to), but they could at least parameter map the brick shader with equivalent paramentes and to give a sort of minimal compatibility.

If you study the two shader systems, they are not that different.  In fact as PAs, we can move most mapped stuff (color, displacement, bump, etc.) between the products with relatively little tweaking.   But even for this, when DS4 reads the CR2, it decides to turn on a glossy node that makes everything look like plastic for many content files.

IMHO, it not too much to ask DAZ (which claims to read Poser files) at least map what is mostly compatible.  Sadly, IMHO they are not rising to that rather low bar, hence forcing many content providers to simply say "Not tested in DAZ studio."  With a little work, DAZ could get much better fidelity to existing Poser textures (virtually all the most common Renderman-like nodes are supported in both products) than they are doing.   Not asking for pixel-level perfection, but it seems that there is lack of emphasis on Poser compatibility.  The purely manual (and tedious) process of translating shader trees forces an increased reliance on high density bit-mapped textures to simplify delivering content.   This increases memory use and reduces usability of things like props where procedural textures tend to make more sense.

So, rather than a question, I'll give DAZ my 2 cents: Don't make it hard for Poser users to take their existing libraries in DS4.  Don't make it hard for Poser content developers to deliver DS usable content.

Hopefully that clarifies what I mean in terms of compatibility.

 -K

Quote - > Quote - ...

It probably can't be easily done. From everything I've learned about render engines, they all use shaders differently. No render engine is shader compatible with another. The best you can hope for is an approximation like what Paolo does with Reality working with Studio and LuxRender.

Or what Snarly does with Pose2Lux. Let's not forget we have our own LuxRender exporter.

Good examples of my point--thank you.  An approximation is what I'm driving at.

-K

Right now, Im running an AMD Phenom II hexacore with 8 gigs of RAM and a geforce with another gig of dedicated RAM, on windows 7 64bit. Its pretty quick, alright.

But honestly.... you can get by with less. I did for years, actually, as I only upgraded to this system last year (my old system was only a single core on windows 32 bit - it lagged a lot... but it got the job done)

Quote - Reading Kerwin's rig specs makes me feel like I live in the stone ages, LOL!

I saved for three years to build that rig myself.   I had to shovel coal into my previous workstation.  (Kept the office nice and warm, though . . .)   Zbrush tends to like a lot of CPU and memory (you can get away with less, but I do a lot of tight deadline stuff these days for my day job(s), so I'm making back just enough to afford that little bit of luxury.  (I'm certainly not making enough on Poser/DS4 assets to justify that rig.)

Lots of single board workstations with I7 (second series) are going cheap these days and I can't believe how cheap memory has become.   I paid less than $150 for the 24GB Corsair kit.

I remember buying my first 5MB (that's megabytes) hard drive for my BBS in 1985 for $1000!   Computers seem cheap today!   There seems to be more compute power in my telephone now than the computer I learned to program on.   (In those days we programmers would don our leopard skins and take down a wolly mammoth for the clan dinner before writing another 100 lines of assembly code.)  Those were the real stone ages.  You kids today with your iPhones, and your pagers, and your fax machines, and the pierced-I-don't-know-whats don't know how good you have it!   (I'm now having a bad case of grumpy-old-programmer-syndrome and have to lie down.)

:D

-K

Quote - I think anyone can pick up a fairly decent rig in the $300-$400 price range that is competent with running Poser or DS if they look around (look at places like TigerDirect, NewEgg or heck even Amazon).  

I used to do the high end computer stuff about 10 or 15 years ago... eventually I got it out of my system and realized that nowdays I get 80-90% of the performance for about 50% of the cost at most consumer computer stores. It's been a long toime since I paid more then $600-800 for a computer. Makes it much easier to build up a render farm. (three computers running at the moment, hopefully another one after christmas.)

Since this needs to be in a Q&A form...

1.  Is daz ever planning on updating DS4/Gene so it can run on machines with multiple users?

2.  Is daz ever going to update the interface on DS?  As a poser user I can't stand DS's interface or navigating around in it.

3.  Has an option of a user easily exporting a posed Gene (including hair and clothing) as a SubDed object into a poser friendly format ever been considered?

4.  Did Daz ever fix the problem of your clothing converter stripping out movement morphs?  Older hair items will never work with gene until it is fixed.

5.  If a poser version of Gene becomes available, will there be sales on older Gene/V5 items as well as letting people with expired PC memberships return at the renew cost?  No new V4 stuff means for now, I'm probably going to let my membership expire and a lot of others have felt that way.  Basically I can't use Gene in my set up so there isn't much point in my buying things from Daz until I see something in the store that I like.  If I don't see things I like, there's no point in being in the PC.

6.  If SM and Daz couldn't be bothered to communicate before Gene was released, and given how much both companies need one another, why should I trust either in the future?  As soon as this Gene split goes away, if it does, it's easy to imagine both companies not talking again.

7.  Considering most renders are of pretty, half naked women, NVIATWAS images, why make a gender neutral character that can morph?  Why not create another pair of female only and male only characters?  Likewise, has Gene been worth all the new headaches and such brought on by its arrival?

8.  Gene in its default form doesn't look very friendly to clothing creators, especially if you want to make an item that is trying to take a female's bouncy bits ino account.  Is anything going to be done to improve this?  What about for non-human forms?  If someone creates an item for Gene, are there V4 or M4 body morphs that will easily adapt that item for the older figures so a vendor can support both generations easily?

9.  Is there ever going to be a no-ears morph for people who want to do nekomimi, twilieks, and other things that don't have traditional human ears?

10.  SubD and dynamic items don't go very well together at times does genesis offer any solutions to that problem?

Quote - Funny how someone with proper knowledge of a horse's anatomy doesn't get shut down and ridiculed as someone (or make that plural) with proper knowledge of human anatomy did (back in the other place). It smells fishy.

But anyway, some seem to forget that there really aren't only Poser users who are unhappy with how things are going. Some of us longtime DS users are more than happy to make the switch in programs due to the treatment received. Some of us are even being called traitors.

What of it?

I rarely post here, but this statement is too true as well.  Whenever I have expressed my uncertainty about Genesis and it's ummm, odd morphing issues I felt a little ridiculed by those who continue to advocate for the "Best 3D figure in the world". 

The mixture of the morphs in one model can cause problems, I mean Vittorrio for V4 looked strangely feminine when morphed as well, and the female morphs for M4 just the same and I am picky when it comes to the look of the anatomy of my figures.  There are problems I see, many that I know will be fixed in time, but I felt that I would try to voice my opinion on them.  I was merely wanting to give some positive "negative" feedback to help out, and it was turned around against me.  All of this even after I stated that I am excited to try the new Genesis figure and that I am an avid Daz and Poser user so that I have no restrictions based on program choice. 

When I posted my concerns about the idea of gender mixed clothing from one outfit, the thread was locked because of the negativity going on around and I don't know if my post was even read due to the fighting going on.  Which is the fault of both sides, I agree, and the thread had every reason to be locked.  I was hoping for a thread that avid and brawl ready Daz "fanboys/girls" ,and I really hate that term as I am one of them, would stay clear from with the understanding that there were going to be negative points being made, but I saw posts from the same culprits calling out every concerned post with hostility and sarcasm, and than the fights began.  It would have been nice if both sides could have played nice so concerns could be addressed or atleast aknowledged by those in the know.

Incidents like that make me very resentful against something that I was anxious to try and use and spend tons of money on.

Sure I just spent a heck load of cash on DS3A, M4 and V4, kept my pc Membership up as long as I could, and spent money at Daz that I didn't need to just to show my support.  And at first shot I was hesitant to try the new figure, but many of my favorite PA's have done wonderful things with the figure and now I need to have it.

  But those types of backlash for a comment not meant to be demeaning in any way, that put a bad taste in my mouth, and that is why many may be upset about this rift.

Daz_Rand, I understand that you cannot control those who post at the forums there, and because of this my intentions are still focused on Genesis and DS4A and I have no animosity toward any of the moderaters nor the company itself.  The help and support I have received from many with the "Daz" before their titles, and the PA's who are wonderful enough to help and support my art as good or bad as it may be, outweigh the few who have brought about the negativity and arguments there.

But for me the money issue has only stalled my ability to use the new toys, it was the negative feedback anyone gave of it all that caught my attention even more.  The battle is not always surrounding Daz vs Poser users, as I am one who enjoys what both programs have to offer and I have been caught in this whirlwind of craziness.

Ummm now after all of that I have a few questions, and since this thread is still user friendly I though I may ask a few questions,

Autofit, this is one of the main things that I need to work when I do purchase my Genesis goodies.  I've heard mixed feelings on how it works, some say clothes carry over smoothly and others say the program does not work well on all clothes.  Is there anyone looking into this, I see you have posted that the Gen 3 figures are in the works for autofit, unless that was wishful thinking on my part, and I would like to think that by then autofit will work smoothly on the G4 outfits as well as the G3 ones.  Because I would give anything to be able to use all of my Gen 3 content on a figure that I can morph into having hooves for feet.....

If the above is a stupid question, I apologize, I don't know much about the technical stuff and I haven't yet had the chance to use autofit for myself, just going by posts I have seen by those who have.

A new equine on the way, call me excited to hear that.  YAY!

Also, I thank you for coming on here, braving the storm so to speak, so that those of us who want to have our voice heard without having to shout above the uproar just to be acknowledged have that chance.

**
**

**
**

Quote - Uh... excuse me?  Since when does any company stop development to cater to the impoverished?  Did Microsoft stop in its tracks because I couldn't afford a computer that would run Windows 7?  Did Poser stop in its tracks because I couldn't afford a computer that would run any version beyond Poser 6?

I've been waiting for someone to bring this up!  Did Microsoft stop innovating?  No!  Did they stop supporting older OS's?  No!  I, too, cannot afford certain upgrades, including my operating system.  Though I have a new motherboard (by reason of my old one crapping out) that has a Core Duo 2 core processor, I am still running Windows XP 32bit.  Vista has passed me by (thankfully, though) and now Windows 7 is getting to be old hat.  Still, I get regular fixes and patches to Windows XP!

There are outstanding issues with DS3, Carrara 8, Hexagon.  They fixed DS3 by making DS4.  That's not a fix.  It would be appreciated by many if some of the outstanding issues in DS3 would be fixed.  But they stop support for the older thing when they make and publish the newer thing.

I don't bitch and moan about not being able to use Genesis.  I admit that I may try it some day, but right now I can't afford DS4A, and I feel going to a standard version when I have DS3A is going backwards.  At that time that I can afford to upgrade to Windows 7 and DS4A, I will enjoy the 64 bit version, including the dynamics.  Until that time, I'd like to see DS3 issues get some attention.  This is what people are talking about.  Well, at least some.  I know others are moaning about Genesis not working in DS3 but that's silly in my view.  I don't expect fancy 64 bit features of Windows 7 to be able to work in my Windows XP.

So, a question to DAZ_Rand...will they address the outstanding issues in DS3/DS3A?  I do see that they've done some work on Hexagon, for which I'm sure many are thankful.  Is this a precedent?  Or just a fluke?

Dana

WinterClaw,

If I am not mistaken Rand stated that DAZ believes that exporting a high res (subdivided) version of Genesis for Poser use would result in poor bending because they state that the lower polygon count contributes to better weight map performance.  Hopefully I'm getting the context of the statement right.

I very much disagree with this.  I have done several re-rigging tests in Poser Pro 2012 and have not found that the polygon count of figures that Poser users are accustomed to doesn't at all affect weight map rigging performance.  It is still a smooth and beneficial approach.  Though this is the POV a Poser-only design.

I agree that I find it to be sideways thinking to develop for a neuter figure, especially when that involves a "realistic" human form.  Sure I've done it with toons but I don't believe the same level of structural detail is expected or required.

The problem I have with Daz studio is not that it runs poorly. I accept that my machine may not be sufficient to run it. My problem is that after several downloads , it installs with no errors but then simply does not start.   The event log on my system states it had an abnormal program termination. 

Three emails to Daz support were never answered. So I gave up on it ever working for me.

I run win xp and Poser 7 , Visual studio 6 and visual c++ 2008 and python 2.4 and 2.7 on the machine and thats all, no internet connection on that box. 

Quote - WinterClaw,

If I am not mistaken Rand stated that DAZ believes that exporting a high res (subdivided) version of Genesis for Poser use would result in poor bending because they state that the lower polygon count contributes to better weight map performance.  Hopefully I'm getting the context of the statement right.

I very much disagree with this.  I have done several re-rigging tests in Poser Pro 2012 and have not found that the polygon count of figures that Poser users are accustomed to doesn't at all affect weight map rigging performance.  It is still a smooth and beneficial approach.  Though this is the POV a Poser-only design.

....

I have seen evidence of this in Poser. So, perhaps Rand's point would hold true for mesh designed to be subD-ed in DS4, where developing a hi-poly count version would not derive much if any benefit for Poser users since the issue of decent weight-mapping is firstly a rigging issue. When you rig and weight-map (my understanding, which is that of a total novice learning as much as possible) you study the underlying mesh in order to first get good basic bending and then weight-map very much as a refinement (no longer needing JCMs).

Feel free to correct me on this: as I see it, it's not a simple matter of exporting/importing a mesh. Without optimal rigging and weight-mapping a DS4-subD figure is going to not behave quite right in Poser smoothing, even with a higher poly-count.

Yeah, I'm really not sure if there are differences there depending on how DS' system is implemented and then transfering it to Poser is causing some kind of performance issue if it is subdivided.  Is that the case?  I don't have DS4 Advanced/Pro because I'd prefer to focus on one system for now.

What I have been doing is looking as Weight Mapping as nothing but an alternative to conventional rigging and applying that "only when necessary".  That means, I'm much more prone to do hybrid rigging.  There is no sense, to me, to just completely scrap spherical (or capsulated, if you prefer) zones and replace the whole thing with weight maps.  What I feel is a better approach is to apply it on the trouble spots - spot apply it just like you would if you were applying ERC to joints.

So no, I haven't entertained the exercise of "nothing but weight mapping".  This could be a reprecussion of not supporting hybrid system - as in higher poly meshes are problematic to rig or produce less than optimal results.  But like I said, I just don't see a reason to do it that way.

For all I know DS doesn't support hybrid rigging and it must export all or nothing.  I think someone mentioned (months ago?) that this was the case.

Quote - I've been waiting for someone to bring this up!  Did Microsoft stop innovating?  No!  Did they stop supporting older OS's?  No! 

Yeah they did.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/products/lifecycle

Windows XP stopped being supported last year, and Vista ended October 22, 2011.

Apple End of lifed my intel mac mini from 2006 with Lion. Nvidia end of lifed my perfectly working 3dfx card that I paid $200 for when they bought them out in the early 2000s. My iphone 3gs will probably stopped being supported next year despite it still works well. My printer lagged behind but finally got minimal support for the last two OSX upgrades and was the only hardware I've bought that failed before it stopped being supported.

If I want the latest and greatest software, I need to upgrade in those cases. If I can't afford it, I need to save up and get the required equipment to install the lastest software. My new macbook can run lion, and I'm saving to upgrade my desktop to a six-core.

Also notice, XP was supported for a long time... but microsoft found they couldn't innovate keeping legacy code around. And Windows 7 was basically a big bug fix from Vista, which they quickly swept under the rug.

Quote - > Quote - I've been waiting for someone to bring this up!  Did Microsoft stop innovating?  No!  Did they stop supporting older OS's?  No! 

Yeah they did.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/products/lifecycle

Windows XP stopped being supported last year, and Vista ended October 22, 2011.

Well, I'm still getting patches and updates for it, automatically.  Fact is, it was still in full support mode well after the release of Vista.  I'm not asking for continuous updates for DS3/DS3A, just that they fix some things that they said they would, and make it stable for those who can't afford to run the latest and greatest version!

All I'm saying, DAZ3D (Digital Art Zone), is make all your customers as happy as possible, not just those who can pump money into your latest technology.  We've all supported you!  I've spent money in October and November and even renewed my annual PC membership!

Dana

Quote - > Quote - I've been waiting for someone to bring this up!  Did Microsoft stop innovating?  No!  Did they stop supporting older OS's?  No! 

Yeah they did.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/products/lifecycle

Windows XP stopped being supported last year, and Vista ended October 22, 2011.

Apple End of lifed my intel mac mini from 2006 with Lion. Nvidia end of lifed my perfectly working 3dfx card that I paid $200 for when they bought them out in the early 2000s. My iphone 3gs will probably stopped being supported next year despite it still works well. My printer lagged behind but finally got minimal support for the last two OSX upgrades and was the only hardware I've bought that failed before it stopped being supported.

If I want the latest and greatest software, I need to upgrade in those cases. If I can't afford it, I need to save up and get the required equipment to install the lastest software. My new macbook can run lion, and I'm saving to upgrade my desktop to a six-core.

Also notice, XP was supported for a long time... but microsoft found they couldn't innovate keeping legacy code around. And Windows 7 was basically a big bug fix from Vista, which they quickly swept under the rug.

I'm stll getting XP security updates as well. I thought I read or heard somewhere that Microsoft changed their plans and extended security updates because so many businesses are still using XP and they didn't want to lose their business when the economy turns around and they're finally able to upgrade. Most businesses never upgraded to Vista and many will need new PCs to use Windows 7 properly. I know there have been no new service packs though.

Circumstances are just a bit different between Windows lifecycles and Daz Studio life-cycles, Male_Media. WindowsXP is a fully-functioning operating system. Bugs were being addressed and fixes provided even after Vista was well and truly part of the landscape.

I have numerous bug reports lodged at Daz regarding DS3Adv vapourising without a trace whilst I was working in Shader Mixer. These were neither acknowledged nor addressed. I gave up lodging reports after reaching double-digits: I realised then that DS4 was going to be the fix (like Win7 was supposed to be the "fix" for Vista) but I'd have to pay for that fix.

I still have Vista running on one of my machines - the bugs that Win7 was meant to fix were also dealt with by Microsoft in Vista. So, love it or hate it: Microsoft Vista is a fully-functional operating system.

According the Rand DS4 is what? 75% complete? DS3Adv is not a fully functioning programme and never will be. Is DS4x going to suffer the same fate as DS3x when we move on to the next shiny thing?

Just sayin'...

You may get automatic updates as a courtesy, but if you had a software issue and you tried to call support, you'll be told to upgrade to the next version as the software is end of life.

I'm not saying that that issues that people have should have been fixed (only issue i've had is that big memory hole that was never plugged), but I doubt that's going to happen as the new version is out and that's where the effort is going. There does however needs to be a focus on producting rock-solid software with the current feature set before adding new functionality and getting the documentation out the door. With some of the efforts of getting Genesis technology into other applications, that platform needs to work and well documented.

Quote - I have an auto-immune disease myself. I feel your pain I really do. But that does not entitle you to what you ask, I'm sorry. Graves is no picnic either. I feel for you that you must deal with that from day to day, but I do not pity you for what you haven't got in the way of equipment or software. Sure, it's fun. Sure, it's a nice hobby and a creative outlet, but it's not something that you're entitled to ;). Do what I do...just lag behind and maybe you can catch up later. That's all you can do. Don't expect anyone to give it to you and don't expect anyone to lag behind because of you. It will never happen. No matter how much you whine about it. The world goes on and doesn't wait for anybody. I'm sorry if you think I misunderstood you, but it really did sound like you were complaining that they made something that didn't work on your system ;).All is not lost. Threatening to delete all your stuff is just silly. Is there something about the software you have now that's not doing what you want? If it is doing what you want, why do you feel you need to have the latest and greatest? From my experience, it's rather underwhelming when you finally do get it, not matter what it is...lol.

As for the software being rushed out before it's really ready, I agree with you. And I think Daz and Smith Micro are both guilty of that. I have a Poser 8 that had the IDL broken with the SR3. It won't get fixed now either. And that actually broke something that WAS working...lol. Such is life.

Laurie

...apologies, right now I am extremely frustrated and I guess my message got a bit muddled. I'm not pushing for a "lite"version of Studio 4.  What I am irritated at is that they could have made a previous version stable enough to be workable if they had just taken the time to fix what was wrong with the core programme. Instead, Daz would choose to embark on an entirely new release with new features, but with  many of the same bugs that would continue to hamstring the application because they were not attended to in the last version.  It almost seemed as if they thought nobody would notice or care about the bugs if they had a bunch of new features to play with. 

As I mentioned earlier there was a lot of concern expressed over this on the Daz forums and support site. It seemed that Daz wasn't listening as they would keep steaming full speed ahead with their next release project.  First it was Studio 3, Then Carrara 8 and Bryce 7, all of which were released with serious flaws.  When it finally appeared as if maybe Studio3 might become the first version of the app. to become reasonably stable, it was pushed aside for development of ver.4. It felt like being a couple meteres from the finish line in a marathon only to be tripped up by a pothole in the road.

As you are no doubt aware, it is really discouraging to spend hours to days on a scene only to have it crash in the render process.  Now have this occur 60 - 70% of the time and you can see why my patience has worn thin. Memory leaks and file bloating have been an ongoing issue since I first began this four years ago with ver 1.5 and have become worse with each new update. The issue has been pointed out again and again, yet today, still nothing seems to have been done to fix it.

I once couldn't wait to get home to fire up Studio and begin working on a new pic. Now it has come to the point that sometimes I wonder why I even bother opening the application up anymore as I pretty much have a good idea what the end result will be.

...oh and as to upgrading hardware to keep up...

Believe it or not I actually tried that route.  The project failed and now I am 1,200USD poorer due to my insufficient technical expertise and clumsy hands even though I followed all the tutorials and manuals.  That's two years of scrimping and saving with nothing to show for it.  Yeah it was to be a beast (12G RAM, a Fermi architecture GPU with provision for a second in SLI, and dual HDDs) as I was tired of crashes.

Most of the off the shelf systems are (like my notebook) not really designed for 3D production and rendering. The low end machines tend to be i3 or i5 driven, with Intel integrated graphics, poor ventilation, and barely adequate PSUs. To get a machine that has a dedicated GPU with at least 1GB VRAM, i7 CPU, beefy enough PSU to support the GPU, improved cooling, and enough RAM (6GB) for overhead to avoid "out of memory" errors is more in the 700 to 900USD range (sans monitor).

Quote - Circumstances are just a bit different between Windows lifecycles and Daz Studio life-cycles, Male_Media. WindowsXP is a fully-functioning operating system. Bugs were being addressed and fixes provided even after Vista was well and truly part of the landscape.

If i had to choose, Daz was more complete than any version of windows. How often do you have to run windows update to get fixes? Even then there were undocumented hotfixes that needed to be applied to fix other issues. No software is complete these days, otherwise no program would need hotfixes, bug patches or service releases.

markschum wrote:

Quote - The problem I have with Daz studio is not that it runs poorly. I accept that my machine may not be sufficient to run it. My problem is that after several downloads , it installs with no errors but then simply does not start.   The event log on my system states it had an abnormal program termination. 

Three emails to Daz support were never answered. So I gave up on it ever working for me.

I run win xp and Poser 7 , Visual studio 6 and visual c++ 2008 and python 2.4 and 2.7 on the machine and thats all, no internet connection on that box. 

Since your machine is that clean then my only suggestion is to make sure your video drivers are recent. DAZ Studio will only launch if the OpenGL drivers for your card are recent (the last couple years - I'd say up to date, but that doesn't always work for some ATI drivers). The viewport needs OpenGL. I found that out when I installed D|S3A on my XP Pro machine. I had to get the latest drivers at the time for my older ATI card. Then D|S3A launched with no problem. I also have read that there was a problem with ATI Catalyst drivers past 10.10 - mine is older but had updated OpenGL.

OpenGL 1.3 compatible graphics card with at least 128 MB RAM (Hardware accelerated OpenGL 2.2, or higher, compatible recommended with 512MB RAM)

http://wwwold.daz3d.com/i/software/studio/requirements?_m=d

Quote - You may get automatic updates as a courtesy, but if you had a software issue and you tried to call support, you'll be told to upgrade to the next version as the software is end of life.

I'm not saying that that issues that people have should have been fixed (only issue i've had is that big memory hole that was never plugged), but I doubt that's going to happen as the new version is out and that's where the effort is going. There does however needs to be a focus on producting rock-solid software with the current feature set before adding new functionality and getting the documentation out the door. With some of the efforts of getting Genesis technology into other applications, that platform needs to work and well documented.

Per the Microsoft document you linked above, the end of extended support for Windows XP is April 8, 2014.

Quote -
 

3Advanced and it's successors, 4 basic (which will no longer be free after the intro offer expires)

---You wont have to suddenly pay for it to keep using it. If you have it, its yours including any of the following free updates. Only new adopters will have to pay for it once ithe intro pricing expires.  And it will only expire once we have finished the version that was always meant to be free. As of right now the plan remains to keep a free version indefinately.

4A and 4Pro have broken that nice mould. Heck, I rarely if ever use many of the "built in" features of 3A as I only do still pics and my system cannot handle the excess memory load some of the built in features like UberEnvironment and the HSS impose.

As I mentioned over in the Daz forums, I agree that Genesis is a major stride forward not just because of the improved joint bending and weight mapping but because it also can combine character morphs in a way the Figure Mixer in 3.x couldn't, and do it so more efficiently.  Given time and practise, I feel almost anything could be possible with it, which for me, included developing characters for an SF story in graphic novel format which has been shelved for years. However that is all moot as the technical stakes have been raised beyond the limit of my means.

...this is the "thank you" I get for all the support I have given Daz3D over the last four years, not only with my hard earned cash, but discussion on other forums and in person with others.

---I dont really know what I can say. Software advances and requires more and more powerful computers to run it.  It really isnt that we dont want you as a customer or want to write you off... but this isnt a situation that is unique to us. Backward compatibility of Operating systems are a good example. when Lion came out earlier this year it discontinued a lot of compatibility... even for those with perfectly capable computers. I wish all software could work forever on every machine but that wont happen, the cost to maintain that infrastructure would be enormously prohibitive. if we stopped making use of advancing technology to enable lesser host machines, not only would that be illogical, but we would likely be branded as out of date or told to get with the times. There would be just as many angry from the other side. We want you as a customer, but the minimum requirements arent personal, they just are what they are.

...oh and I don't do computer games as I'd rather be spending my time (and money) doing something more productive and meaningful, like 3D CG.

---I hear ya. With the exception of infinity blade and angry birds, I dont have time for games. I havent played my precious rock band in ages.