Outers are Poser4 Lo Res : 2207 vertices each
Inners are PoserPro Lo res : 7846 vertices each

All morphed and rerigged using conventional methods.

Draft rendered in PP2012 with IDL and GC. No SSS.

OK, start shooting. :-)

All have the same morphed obj file.

Only the textures and shaders are different. 
Click to enlarge.

Ok, OK, OK, I"ll dive for cover now. :-)

LLLP

Lo res and clothed makes sense. Lo res and nude is kinda far from reality. Or not far enough from reality where it takes on a "tune" quality. I guess the distance to camera comes into the equation. Great effort here of course..

Quote -
OK, start shooting. :-)

No, I don't think I will.

I've got some paint drying that I need to keep an eye on.

Quote - Lo res and clothed makes sense. Lo res and nude is kinda far from reality. Or not far enough from reality where it takes on a "tune" quality. I guess the distance to camera comes into the equation. Great effort here of course..

What... never been to a nudist beach?

LOL :laugh:

Good on you Vilters

Whaw, thanks to all of you.
I was not expecting a single compliment.. :-)

Next??
Build better textures, the textures have to make up for the lo poly count.

And YES I wanna go to close-up reality quality with these Lo figures.
Will take some more time :-)

The mesh in only the wireframe to hang the texture on.

It is texture you see, and it is texture you render ;-)

Quote - Lo res and clothed makes sense. Lo res and nude is kinda far from reality. Or not far enough from reality where it takes on a "tune" quality. I guess the distance to camera comes into the equation. Great effort here of course..

I don't usually go around the internet doing this but I felt compelled to address it.

Toon=cartoon.  Tune= music.

I'm guessing it was a typo but if you honestly didn't know, now you do. :)  Carry on.

For background figures the clothed ones are awesome. That's a compliment ;).

Laurie

Toon=cartoon.  Tune= music.

I'm guessing it was a typo but if you honestly didn't know, now you do. :)  Carry on.

You should be proud*

Thank you all for the motivation to carry on.

Tonight , I will certainly have some updates to show.

Everybody "forgets" this older content but with some time and effort..

For those that want to try it, I have one tip/trick ; attention to the uvmap..

Morph what you want in "Z".

But pay attention when you morph in "X" or "Y", that you stretch - shrink the uvmap gradually or you distrub the uvmapping.

VERY IMPORTANT with these Lo Poly figures as you have few points to play with, and every point does something in 3D space.

I somehow get the impression that your found of low poly figures ;-)

quote/

The mesh in only the wireframe to hang the texture on.
It is texture you see, and it is texture you render ;-)

/end quote

I dont agree with that, in the attached image ive rendered four low poly V4's.

(merged with a wireframe preview)

17K, 4K, 2K and 1K, same texture and same amount of smoothing (crease angle at 80).

The 4K figure looks decent, the 2K figure is ok for a background figure , the 1K figure I see no use for at all.

The 17K figure however looks totaly ok in my opinion and I prefer that one before the standard V4.

So.. I do belive that you need a certain amount of polygons to create a somehow decent looking 3d humanoid.

Its hard to make a ball from a cube without the extra polygons.

I do like your figures and I see how they can be of use, but personaly I prefer some extra polys in a mesh.

Quote - For background figures the clothed ones are awesome. That's a compliment ;).

Laurie

Come on... not just the clothed ones Laurie... if your render is of certain parts of Europe, or indeed, so I've heard, San Francisco?

:lol:

It is texture you see, and it is texture you render ;-)

And that is of couse true to a certian extent. But even displacement mapping cannot match a high res mesh when you displace on the X or Y axis. This was V3. I just don't think you need to sweat lo res as much as you did 10 years ago.

But hey, you know more than I do about it so, *allez-y

Quote - > Quote - For background figures the clothed ones are awesome. That's a compliment ;).

Laurie

Come on... not just the clothed ones Laurie... if your render is of certain parts of Europe, or indeed, so I've heard, San Francisco?

:lol:

I haven't been either of those places so I dunno...hahaha.

I was thinking background for crowds and things and I haven't seen any naked crowds. Anything's possible tho I guess! LOL

Laurie

@jonnybode

I like your examples.

Naturally when you take it to the extremes ?? It does not work.
17K is great, 4K doable, lower is falling off the cliff of acceptable.
Poser 4 Lo Res at 2207 is realy the limit....

In my humble opinion, you need some 12.000 Polys to build a VERY good figure.
It can be done with less, as seen here:
http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/536626
Take your time to look at the big resolution preview pictures.
6.300 for the figure base.

Any higher is HD polution.

@monkycloud :-):-)

What do i answer???
I live in Belgium, but my favorite place to go is the USA..... And ha-ha-ha-, yes I visited San Francisco :-)

@richardson

Love the pose, the figure, the render.
That was V3? WHAW, good job.
My compliments.

Hi Vilters!

That figure looks very good, but the promos pics dont tell if they have used the included:

 "DISPLACEMENT map to alter the polycount (up to 102488 polys)"

Or if the pictures are of the base figure, anyway they have made a god job on the model.

In a displacement map every pixel becomes a micro poly; displacing only the micrpoly.
You can make a displacemnt map as big as you want to obtain an infinite number of micro poly's.

Poser is NOT limited to 4096x4096 maps.
And that is 16 million micro poly's to work with..... on top of the polys already in the object to give the basic shape.

This example from the above figure shows:
Displacement mapping and smoothing and the results:

Lower feft is the origional obj file...

Clic to enlarge.

There is NO subdevision here; The initial object stays at 6300 Poly's.
And as you can see from the example he uses a 1024x1024 displacement map giving him something more 1 million micro poly's.

Maybe it's just that my high gamut monitor shows a lot more flaws.  Dunno. But really great textures on a low poly figure look really, really weird, just as textures that have wrinkles look bizarrely pasted on when they appear over a face that is modelled smooth.  Sorry.  I could never render these as anything other than distant members of a crowd.

@moriador

I agree,
That is why my next work will involve creating better textures for the Poser 4 Lo Res.
No worries, I will show a next episode.

The extended version of that particular model can be found here

http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/hair-extended-eva-v3-3d-model/536285

Same object file at 6300 poly's for the base figure.

But all texture files are increased in size..

The difference in LOW to HIGH is ONLY in the increase of the texture file sizes...

Happy Posering to you all.
I am off to work.
Tony

This is an interesting discussion.  I think it is good to test just how little resources are needed to get acceptable results. On that subject though I am curious about the gains and losses involved in a low resolution figure which uses a high resolution displacement map.

Surely the advantages of the low resolution figure, and its small footprint in resources is lost when a high resolution displacement map, presumably of several megabytes or more is applied to it to get the desired result.  I can see that the displacement map might not be needed , or a lower resolution one might suffice for background figures. With models I have made I have always considered it a trade off. What details to put in polys, and what details to put into displacement maps, bearing in mind the resources consumed by both together.

Hey, vilters, if you can make some decent displacement maps that don't result in a bunch of poke-thru on dynamic cloth simulations -- I'll be the first to take my hat off to ya!

I make most of my renders at 4000 pixels on the smallest dimension because I want them to be printable.  Even the best textures are questionable at those sizes because you see every little blessed thing. When it really matters, I choose the textures for any given scene based on which flaws (bad transition from head to neck, stretched freckles on shoulders, a patch of baked in specularity) will be visible with which outfit, camera angle, etc.  None are even close to perfect.  Quite often I give up and paint over the entire scene. :)

ETA:  I used to like "photorealistic" teactures -- until I got the new monitor.  Now I have a much greater appreciation of those that are essentially painted by hand for a specific figure.

Poser is NOT limited to 4096x4096 maps.
And that is 16 million micro poly's to work with..... on top of the polys already in the object to give the basic shape.

Vilters,

What are the new limitations? I have done a displacement map @ 8126x8126. This was for V4s 3 4096maps plus 4 smaller maps for eyes, lashes,trans etc.

For any material zone you can create a texture map (or a displacement map)
For size : stick to :

512x512
1024x1024
2048x2048
4096x4096
8192x8192 => I would use this as a max; hey you have to limit memory use somewhere LOL.

For the Poser 4 Lo res figures, I would think this is close to the limit.
All have the same object.
All have the same texture : But there is a HSV node between diffuse_color an the texture to control skin color. :-)

=> There is only ONE material zone, so ALL is on a single texture jpg.

For ??
2 thousand
2 hundred
and 7 vertices (points) 
I would say; Certainly no High res, certainly no V4 replacement but for 2207 vertices?
Not bad.

Click to enlarge.

I can even make morphs.
See the open mouth, and YES, the teeth are in the texture :-) :-) :-)

Open close mouth
Open close eyes
Smile

Gonna make some different body's and faces too.

Poser is all about experimenting and having fun during some spare free hobby time.

Happy Posering

You are missing one thing tho vilters. My computer bogs down on huge texture files a lot faster than it does on large meshes. If I have a choice between an insanely large texture file(s) or a moderately dense mesh, I'll take the mesh ;). It's kinda silly to go over 5000 pixels on a texture map when in most cases you won't see that much of the texture when rendered.

Laurie

Yeah LaurieA

You "can" use higher resolution textures. You do not "have" to.

To stay DS compatible most provided textures do not go over 4096x4096.

And if you use the "quality" or "crisp" option the texture caching option in the recent Poser versions reduces memory usage.

If you set the texture filtering to "none", you loose texture caching and PC/MAC slow down.
Filtering is the lower option box in the textures window.

General prefernces => Goto => Render Tab => Texture caching => Let it run in background.

Yeah, I know all that. Other than for crowds tho, low poly figures serve no purpose in Poser other than to say "I got the poly count down to ****..whoohoo". We don't render for games. We render high quality images. I want more mesh for that.

Laurie

Click to enlarge.

Sleep well to all.
Happy Posering, Tony.

Click to enlarge.

Sleep well to all.
Happy Posering, Tony.

What are the new limitations? I have done a displacement map @ 8126x8126. This was for V4s 3 4096maps plus 4 smaller maps for eyes, lashes,trans etc.

I should explain this.. Zbrush likes a single UV map so, adding V4's 3 4096 UVmaps and her smaller ones to the last quadrant makes it 8126x8126. Once the displacement map is made this saves out fine. This gets cut up back to 4096, etc again for regular image maps in paint prog for Poser... This gets past the bodypart seam issue.

You really mean to do anything with those figures of yours vilters? Close up??!. They looks like blow-up dolls..lol. I'm sorry I'm not trying to be rude, really. But that's what they resemble to me and I'd never ever use them in a million years. How do you morph something like that? Where you may only have 2 or 3 vertices to pull on or push?

Laurie

Yes Laurie, these last figures have ONLY 7846 vertices (points)

It is not a perfect world, and each and every vertice HAS to be put in the right spot or you imediately see the mistake.

No camouflage, no subdevision to cover up.

This is the HARD, Lo Poly object, "as is".

Rendered in PP2012 with IDL+GC, and smoothing ON.

PS: to all

No body can, or will ever use these figures..

There is NO support at all for them.

None, zilsh, nada, rien de knots. NULL.....

I often call them : "My private SM dolls".

My personal "test" toys".

NOW, it is W A Y past bed time.. LOL

I normally refrain from these sorts of discussions, however, I agree with LaurieA here. And it's not just the textures, but the lack of definition in the facial feature shape that are making me feel that they are 'dolls' and not 'people'.

And if a single vertice is in the wrong place and causes issues, I'm not sure how the average poser user would be able to morph such a figure. 

Delaney

Quote - And here the very extreme last one LOL.
Click to enlarge => LARGE PICTURE !!

Yes Laurie, these last figures have ONLY 7846 vertices (points)

It is not a perfect world, and each and every vertice HAS to be put in the right spot or you imediately see the mistake.

No camouflage, no subdevision to cover up.

This is the HARD, Lo Poly object, "as is".

Rendered in PP2012 with IDL+GC, and smoothing ON.

Yeah, so then how do you morph that?

Laurie

Gee, I was there to see the beginning of the push for higher rez figures. People couldn't get away from Poser 3 people fast enough. I'm afraid those figures are not high enough rez for anything more than background, crowd scenes. But each to their own.

Quote - Yeah, I know all that. Other than for crowds tho, low poly figures serve no purpose in Poser other than to say "I got the poly count down to ****..whoohoo". We don't render for games. We render high quality images. I want more mesh for that.

Laurie

Thank you, exactly!! If your hardware can't handle higher quality meshes, maybe it's time for an upgrade.

If low poly characters (say 6000 and down) do what you want them to do, then use them by all means.

If high poly characters (120k to 400k) are what you want, use them.

I use characters ranging from about 15k to about 200k+. All of them have a use, but the 60k to 200k+ ones get used the most for what I do.

Many of todays video games engines support fairly high poly counts now, so a 100k+ character for cut scenes and 10 to 50k for in game action is not asking that much. Obviously if you need to have lots of characters on the screen in a game at the same time they need to be much lower polycounts. Poser 64 bit doesn't really care what poly level they are because nothing is interactively rendered like in a video game.

Some people will tell you that extra polygons in a mesh are just pollution. But that is not entirely the case. If it were the case, there would be lots of elongated polygons on many  characters. Wireframes normally have a certain average polygon size thruout the mesh, which will add loops to keep things that way. Avoiding triangles and 5+ pointers in joints also adds more loops. Depending on how long a loop is, it can add a lot of polygons to the mesh. The denser the mesh, the more it will add.

There is nothing wrong with using low poly meshes, just as there is nothing wrong with using 200k+ ones. It is all a matter of preference, and application.

Quote - What are the new limitations? I have done a displacement map @ 8126x8126. This was for V4s 3 4096maps plus 4 smaller maps for eyes, lashes,trans etc.

 

I should explain this.. Zbrush likes a single UV map so, adding V4's 3 4096 UVmaps and her smaller ones to the last quadrant makes it 8126x8126. Once the displacement map is made this saves out fine. This gets cut up back to 4096, etc again for regular image maps in paint prog for Poser... This gets past the bodypart seam issue.

You can use multiple maps in zbrush and not have to worry about seams or jump through hoops. All you do is paint your texture on the full body, then use polygroups to export each map to photoshop or where ever. Your seams will be fine.

~Shane

Quote - For the Poser 4 Lo res figures, I would think this is close to the limit.
All have the same object.
All have the same texture : But there is a HSV node between diffuse_color an the texture to control skin color. :-)

=> There is only ONE material zone, so ALL is on a single texture jpg.

All have the same texture, but an HSV node between diffuse?

Vilters, I know that vendors have been known to do this, but it doesn't make it correct.  Black people aren't just white people with darkened skin. 

The palms of the hands, the soles of the feet, the finger and toe nails, the lips, the inside of the eye, the lacrimals -- these don't just go dark when you want to make an African or an Indian.  But they will if all you do is change the HSV node. If you try to render that way, it looks wrong. Like an extraterrestrial.

You will need separate material zones for the nails, skin around the inside of the eyes, lacrimals, lips, hands, and feet, at the very least.  I would argue that you need an entirely different set of textures as African skin just does not look simply like European skin that's been darkened.  But at a minimum, you'd need different zones, if you were to keep the same base texture.

Not to mention that people wear makeup and tattoos.  So with one material zone, you'd have to ship a dozen 8k pixel full maps just to change the lip color or put a tattoo on someone's wrist.  One material map is false efficiency, if you actually need some real diversity.

ETA: I guess you can do the tattoos with nodes.  But I've only seen that done convincingly in one place (BB's thread). Everything else I've seen that was not applied directly to the texture itself looks odd to me.

Quote - > Quote - What are the new limitations? I have done a displacement map @ 8126x8126. This was for V4s 3 4096maps plus 4 smaller maps for eyes, lashes,trans etc.

 

I should explain this.. Zbrush likes a single UV map so, adding V4's 3 4096 UVmaps and her smaller ones to the last quadrant makes it 8126x8126. Once the displacement map is made this saves out fine. This gets cut up back to 4096, etc again for regular image maps in paint prog for Poser... This gets past the bodypart seam issue.

You can use multiple maps in zbrush and not have to worry about seams or jump through hoops. All you do is paint your texture on the full body, then use polygroups to export each map to photoshop or where ever. Your seams will be fine.

 

~Shane

Ditto.

I don't know why people insist on making this part harder than it is.  For instance, if you're working on a 4th or 5th gen Daz figure... First autogroup it, then shift click it and delete hidden geometry (thus getting rid of eyeballs, teeth, fingernails).  Then autogroup by uv group, then manually group the limbs together, the torso and ears, and leave the face on it's own. When you're exporting textures, just do them in those three chunks by hiding the other two and generating your texture from polypaint or your bump maps from the higher subdivision levels.

Everywhere I go people keep insisting that you need to create some sort of fancy signle uv map vickie and then break the maps back up and rotate them by hand, wasted extra time and effort.

Call me OCD in that regard or a purist, but I hate bad topolgy, too.

I guess working only on laptops for the last couple of years just made me a stickler for efficiency.

I don't see why I should have to wait 30 minutes for a render to finish if a few tweaks here and there can cut that time in half or less.

My figures are V3/M3 based but I switched the head geometry with V3RR/M3RR because I felt I don't needed all those vertices in the head. They are now 45.000 polys overall, and while the body has all the mesh detail of standard V3/M3, I would have to render poster sized printouts of them to notice the lower head mesh resolution.

So, something between 35.000 and 55.000 thousand is my personal "ideal" for "nude" Poser use.

Clothed figures can be considerable less, of course. I also built a lot of permanently clothed figures that have no body mesh at all.

So, no, I wouldn't want to use Vilters figures as the center pieces in my renders, but as a fellow figure "modder" I have to say he did a great job turning them into what looks like real people.

Those Poser 4 LoRes people are nothing more than pink blobs when you load them and originally they were just meant to be virtual artist dummies and never to be rendered just for their own sake.

You can use multiple maps in zbrush and not have to worry about seams or jump through hoops. All you do is paint your texture on the full body, then use polygroups to export each map to photoshop or where ever. Your seams will be fine.

Yep, I've just learned this and will try to evolve my workflow as well. t's hard to let go of a good thing that never lets you down.

Everywhere I go people keep insisting that you need to create some sort of fancy signle uv map vickie and then break the maps back up and rotate them by hand, wasted extra time and effort.

I think this was developed for late ZB2 so about the time you joined. Back then it was vertice error messages. Lots of wasted time. And this is not a lot of work once you've done it a few times. But yes, I will evolve.

Sorry to be a jerk but it's driving me up the wall.

Three people have used the non-word, "vertice", on this page.

The singular form for a single point in a mesh is vertex. The plural is vertices. An alternative valid plural is vertexes, but for some reason English speakers do not use that even though it would be more logical with the rules of English plurals.

It's Latin.

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/4539/singular-of-vertices

Quote - Sorry to be a jerk but it's driving me up the wall.

Three people have used the non-word, "vertice", on this page.

The singular form for a single point in a mesh is vertex. The plural is vertices. An alternative valid plural is vertexes, but for some reason English speakers do not use that even though it would be more logical with the rules of English plurals.

It's Latin.

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/4539/singular-of-vertices

Will there be a flash quiz later?

Laurie

Wow. More parsing and spellchecks*.

• I think the actual error message used vertice and why it gets quoted. I have no ill intentions.

Juo aare aall rigt.

Thay aare coomplateli less use.

Largen to click pleaase. Huuge pic with the noodes in the mathplace.

Painting for the boodi is now 8192x8192 points laarge.

Big picture, had to compress to get below the attach limit here, sorry for the quality loss. Not my fault....

That was fun. LOL.
Have a nice day, Tony

Thay aare coomplateli less use.

Largen to click pleaase. Huuge pic with the noodes in the mathplace.

Painting for the boodi is now 8192x8192 points laarge.

So, did you mean that was useless? Not surprising but it tells me there are not the same limits as a few years ago.