Quote - Oh please, DAZ CREATED the gap in the first place. DSON was merely an attempt to placate disgruntled Poser users who felt disenfranchised. It worked to some degree.  I see Poser developing in a different direction and what DAZ does or doesn't do won't matter much eventually to the Poserverse. As you say they'll go their way and create the DAZverse or whatever. Frankly, as long as Genesis is stuck in DS I'll never use it.

Eventually, another third party developer will come up with a figure that takes full advantage of Poser's technology, or SM will develop a figure that will. Either way, make mine Poser, baby!

 

 

P.S. Not really directed at you, I just REALLY wanted to use that emoticon!

No one is arguing that DAZ created the gap.

In order for DAZ to grow, they needed to be able to make figures that could do all the kinds of things that people were asking for them to be able to do. Unfortunatly the software did not have the capacity to allow the growth, so they had to push their own software....and this has worked very well for them

DSON was not made to bring poser people back because of some big mistake...it was done simply as a community service. Sales for d/s products have already far surpassed poser sales and are continually growing. The old-school poser market is not very large anymore.
But that said....many of us are still making products for poser, or at least compatible with poser. Because we all still respect that part of the market. All my poser sets have their own custom textures made in poser itself (not some simple conversion), using all the advanced features that poser can handle (or at least the ones I know how to use LOL)..and I do the same for d/s with all the advances that they have.

But as the markets grow further apart, it will become harder and harder to continue to develop for both...and right now d/s is in the lead for both the market sales and for the tech that will allow me to make cooler and cooler characters.

Rawn summed it up quite nicely. The whole "Poser is the biggest market" is simply not true anymore basd on sales. D/S sales are much higher. New users entering this market see 2 options-

1. Dazstudio for free, able to use Genesis1 and 2, (and Dawn) and has the more advanced tech

2. Poser, which costs a fair amount for all the features, but can only impliment V4 and Dawn and native Poser figures (not at all financially viable) and Genesis via Dson(which most hate)

It's pretty clear what direction they are all going with, and there are a lot more new users than old schoolers, and they are the ones buying more content.  They are not tainted with the history between these two companies and will just go with the more attractive offer. That is the reality. So all this we won't buy at Daz or silly comments like we will take our money somewhere else or Daz is hurting has very little effect to be honest. Daz does not want to alienate Poser users, the only one doing that is SM. It is their business model to rely on 3rd party figures for app sales, and if a 3rd party figure goes a certain direction, its their choice to either follow it or stay where they are, or come up with a viable replacement.

Dawn is supposed to be that replacement. So ask yourself, does she have what it takes?

Y'know.....

That whole 'The Ghods of Draper have Won and all the new kiddie-winkies are Ours and it is all SM's Fault Muahahahahahahahaaaaa!!!!' spiel would work better if there wasn't a seemingly constant flow of d/s partisans parading through our 'shrinking, disintegrating corner of the 3D universe' constantly trying to convince Poser users of their truth. DAZ 'won'? Cool. They have their own boards to pat themselves on the back; not too many here are interested.

We don't need a Vickie killer. We -need- to break people of the mindset that the former DAZ business model is the only way to deal with content. Flush the whole 'One Mesh To Rule Them All' nonsense right down the drain with last night's lasagna.

Dawn is just a figure; and a 1.00 figure at that. She's a bit too fiddly for easy animating, and was designed for still posing. She needs some serious morph packages, and perhaps a 2.0 or even 3.0 to get the bugs worked out, and adapted to the tech available in the software.

And it also looks like it would be a good idea to start saving for Z-brush.... :D  

LOL!  How is SM alienating Poser users?  By not adopting DAZ-tech?  If that's the answer, we've already traveled this road.  With the same answers and the same reasons why not.

If you are basing your figures on DAZ site sales then yeah, it's going to show a higher share of Genesis sales.  I mean, that kind of makes sense, doesn't it?  The market figures drastically change depending on the makeup of the customers that shop at various places and what is offered.  That's like saying Dawn product sales are higher at Hivewire than sales for other figure content.  Gee, you think?  Obviously the content is skewed in that favor.

I just really am not sure what you are playing at.  Life sounds good for you and you enjoy making what you make so it should be rather blissful.

Maybe she has what it takes, maybe not.  I'm not as concerned with the status quo.  Sounds like an invidual choice to me but I just am not inclinded to stop at what I feel are really trivial things like this or that "out of the box" (visual) feature.

Dale B... Where's the "Like" button?

Quote - We don't need a Vickie killer. We -need- to break people of the mindset that the former DAZ business model is the only way to deal with content.

Yes!

Quote - Dawn is just a figure; and a 1.00 figure at that.

and Yes!

Absolutely.  Just a figure.  Not really worth having such a doom-filled, degenerative discussion over.

Quote - And it also looks like it would be a good idea to start saving for Z-brush

Zbrush!  They charge for that!  Obviously living in the past!!!  They should give it away and sell plugins, right? :P

Dale B

HAHAHAHA!  "The GHODS of DRAPER" have won-it's all over."Kiddie-Winkies!"

Soon we will awaken and not be able to remember Poser.

ONE FIGURE to RULE THEM ALL

We too shall be swept away... Oh the Horror!

I hope you do save up for Zbrush. It certainly freed me of waiting for morphs to be made. That said- Chris from Hivewire has made some fanstastic expression morphs....

Quote - Y'know.....

That whole 'The Ghods of Draper have Won and all the new kiddie-winkies are Ours and it is all SM's Fault Muahahahahahahahaaaaa!!!!' spiel would work better if there wasn't a seemingly constant flow of d/s partisans parading through our 'shrinking, disintegrating corner of the 3D universe' constantly trying to convince Poser users of their truth. DAZ 'won'? Cool. They have their own boards to pat themselves on the back; not too many here are interested.

We don't need a Vickie killer. We -need- to break people of the mindset that the former DAZ business model is the only way to deal with content. Flush the whole 'One Mesh To Rule Them All' nonsense right down the drain with last night's lasagna.

Dawn is just a figure; and a 1.00 figure at that. She's a bit too fiddly for easy animating, and was designed for still posing. She needs some serious morph packages, and perhaps a 2.0 or even 3.0 to get the bugs worked out, and adapted to the tech available in the software.

And it also looks like it would be a good idea to start saving for Z-brush.... :D  

 

 

 

It's not really about winning. Sure there is some smack talk, but it's about providing Poser users with something new, and advanced to play with. Some might be happy with older figures, but there are lots of those who wish for something better. In order to get people interested in your app, it needs a showcase figure to go along with it. This industry revolves around figures, and if your app cannot support the latest, then provide an alternative. The danger is if that requirement is not met, you end up being left behind, and nobody likes being left behind, and possibly losing your user base as well. So its a question of will Dawn change that  in any way and what impact will she have. And that is what the thread is about. And yes, Zbrush is the best investment you can make:)

Dawn is geared up to fight off the Grey Blobians of Doom! Can she do it-does she stand a chance or will the Platinum Club smite her down? :-)

Tune in next year and see!

Just adding a little silliness.

Even thou zBrush can be used as a stand alone app

It's used as a plug for a lot of other app's DAZ,Poser,C4D,
Max .AutoDesk has MudBox.Games

I don't know Blender that well but it has a lot of tools including sculpting and it's free.

Quote - Rawn summed it up quite nicely. The whole "Poser is the biggest market" is simply not true anymore basd on sales. D/S sales are much higher. New users entering this market see 2 options-

1. Dazstudio for free, able to use Genesis1 and 2, (and Dawn) and has the more advanced tech

2. Poser, which costs a fair amount for all the features, but can only impliment V4 and Dawn and native Poser figures (not at all financially viable) and Genesis via Dson(which most hate)

It's pretty clear what direction they are all going with, and there are a lot more new users than old schoolers, and they are the ones buying more content.  They are not tainted with the history between these two companies and will just go with the more attractive offer. That is the reality. So all this we won't buy at Daz or silly comments like we will take our money somewhere else or Daz is hurting has very little effect to be honest. Daz does not want to alienate Poser users, the only one doing that is SM. It is their business model to rely on 3rd party figures for app sales, and if a 3rd party figure goes a certain direction, its their choice to either follow it or stay where they are, or come up with a viable replacement.

Dawn is supposed to be that replacement. So ask yourself, does she have what it takes?

Truth is, we don't know yet. Neither do you. Dawn has the potential to be the next "V4", for Poser, but then again she's only been out about three months. We have to just wait and see. Plus Dawn hokds at least one major advantage over Genesis for Poser users, she's not locked into a application that many Poser users either can't or don't want to use.

As for SM alienating it's base, I don't think so. Adopting the Genesis technology puts them forever at the mercy of another company and worse a competitor. Even if Poser did adopt the technology of Genesis, there's no guarantee that DAZ wouldn't have done exactly what they have done over the last two years. You said it yourself, DAZ gives away D/S for free just so it can expand it's market share or Poser. So what if Poser had adopted the Genesis technology? What kind of position would they be in now?

All in all, I'd say that even if Dawn isn't the "V4 or Genesis Killer" that  some want, she's a step in the right direction. Over the next few months, her morphs set will come out and more outfits will be made for her.. She may not dethrone V4 but she might cut into her sales a bit more.

If the anti-whatever attitude doesn't stop seeping into the posts, making the thread extremely tiring to read, I'm going to start reporting people. Why does *everything *have to turn into a Poser VS DAZ argument? Can't you people be nice to each other? Ugh.

I have Dawn. I haven't used her yet. I did get a few things for her in the Halloween Grab Bag, so I might look into tinkering with her. I've always been slow to gravitate to new figures, though. I was stuck on A3 for the longest time and didn't even download V4 for...a while. 

Just as a quick aside, because it did kinda come up,  does Genesis work natively in any other program other than DAZ Studio? I assume that it does work natively in Carrara by now, though, right?

Quote - Just as a quick aside, because it did kinda come up,  does Genesis work natively in any other program other than DAZ Studio? I assume that it does work natively in Carrara by now, though, right?

You can export animation like Poser fussion in .fbx format to any app.

The argument wasn't abotu which app is better. We all know that type of thing never ends well.

The comment I was making was simply addressing the dis-information that is being put out about how daz doesnt care about poser users and it is their evil plan to alienate them. When the opposite is true.

DAZ is simply a company that relies on making and selling content.

To keep the company alive, they have to make sure the content they sell is up to current industry/custome expectations. They do not have the luxury of a software company that can keep the software at a certian level and throw a few simple gimicks in and call it a new version and have a market for sales. That doesnt work with content.

Stuff with V4 level tech has been in the marketplace for what...six or seven years or so?
It is safe to say the marketplace is saturated with products for her. How many lara croft outfits do we need? So to keep the market alive they had to adapt new tech to the figures.  They built what people were asking for. We now have figures that can morph into almost any shape and size and still bend and follow poses like they were made for it. They can have clothes that adapt to all the different shapes almost seamlessly and dont require the content maker to pick and choose which morphs they want to include. Heck, they even made it so that if people wanted to, older generation textures and clothes could work with the newer figures (at least in G1).
So they were giving the market what they asked for..and people did take to it. The new users coming in are finding things alot easier than when we old timers started. I know I remember when we had to apply each texture by hand and didn not have mat files to instantly apply them.

But unfortunatly to develop these advancments that the customers were asking, they needed the software to be able to handle it, so they developed the tech and were even working with SM to try to incorporate it. But they can only do so much, so when that didnt seem to work, they made the dson system, so that poser users could at least have the options of getting some of the advancments they were working on.

We can all agree that poser does need a more advanced figure that can work natively in the program. I know I would love to see it.
Dawn has the potential to be as advanced as being possible with what poser can do, but it can only go so far until the software develops to the point to handle higher tech figures. So that i where the content creation side falls short again. SM is not a content making company, so they dont have as much of a vested interest in content advances. Their customers buy their software, and as long as they keep buying the software, then for them the content must seem like it is still good enough. So not a big issue.

So yeah...there is a gap between the apps. But you cannot really blame one side or the other for it...they each are simply looking after their own interests and future growth. The best we can really hope for are the occasional plug-ins that may bridge some of the differences, but to hope for full comaptibility between the two programs is going to simply impossible.
So it is simply up to the customers to decide what they want from their programs and what they want from their figures and decide for themselves what is more important in the end to make their art.

Eric, Joe....

I'd already have Z Brush if I hadn't stumbled across a deal on Pro Tools 10..... :P The pipeline was pretty bare in the audio end. But now with Pro Tools and my lovely Sennheiser HD380 pro headphones with their absolutely =flat= response curve, I'm oh so ready there (well, except for a good condenser for vocal, and a decent pair for stereo environment). If you need to do audio work trust me, they are =so= worth the cost (Plus it's funny as all hell to wave them at a member of the earbud generation, watch them sorta hesitantly place them on their heads....and then pale and start looking frantically for the bass boost. Or yank them off and go on a long tear about the 'cheap defective headset with no thump to them').

Yeah, Poser -does- need a glamour dolly that grabs attention....but said dolly needs to be Poser-centric, and utilize all the new goodies to the max. Dawn has potential....but at this stage, that is all it is. As to the wisdom of the choice SM made....it's about 2 years since the Great Divide, and there is already two incompatible versions of the g-thing out there. Whereas the stuff that Syyd, PhilC, Traveller, Davo, Dendras, Sean, Penguinisto, Netherworks, Anton, Diane, DaCort, Rawnr, Xurge, etc, etc etc made over the past decade+ are all still useable. I've got a small movie cast's worth of figure's in the runtime, and what I do in Poser can be output in several standards the industry accepts, which makes it easier to work with other applications (not that they couldn't add a few more; EXR would be lovely). I hope she succeeds, but I do -not- want to see Dawn, or any other figure, become 'the vicky killer'. That paradigm has resulted in, to quote, "More slutwear than all of New York's Victoria's Secrets combined". The marketplace needs to embrace variance.....it's the only way it will ultimately survive.  

Quote - Just as a quick aside, because it did kinda come up,  does Genesis work natively in any other program other than DAZ Studio? I assume that it does work natively in Carrara by now, though, right?

Short Answer...?

No.  

Quote - Dawn is supposed to be that replacement. So ask yourself, does she have what it takes?

No, she's Vicky 1 with weight maps and that's not enough these days. Poser doesn't need old technology with a new jacket, it just needs new technology. Genesis is new technology, Dawn is nothing new, it's what we have already for Poser for a while now, but just a step back.

I do think we all expected a lot more from all the names attached to Dawn and one wonders why these people didn't take it a step further then they did. Oh, I know..... they wanted to generate sales in both camps and because of that a poser figure once again didn't move forward at all. As long as creators and vendors want to generate sales in both camps, poser users will always be stuck in the middle.

Better to use Dawn and have a good customer base, than make things for a niche market like toons.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - Better to use Dawn and have a good customer base, than make things for a niche market like toons.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Toons are a diffrent market. No where did it claim to be a figure of a new era. That is why Dawn is taking a bit of heat, because she is not living up to the expectation levels that she was hyped out to be. Dawn is targeting the Genesis and Vicki market, toons are not. They are for a different audience, just like monsters and other alternative figure types.

If you think Dawn is Vicky 1 with weight mapping then you really need to chack a few things out first.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - Toons are a diffrent market. No where did it claim to be a figure of a new era. That is why Dawn is taking a bit of heat, because she is not living up to the expectation levels that she was hyped out to be. Dawn is targeting the Genesis and Vicki market, toons are not. They are for a different audience, just like monsters and other alternative figure types.

Exactly!

The thing for me is that I don't need a replacement for V4, that's what V4 is for. I want something different. There are some new figures in development and being discussed that are far more interesting and different.

I also don't have a need for figures that work the same in DS and Poser. If I'd ever wanted to use Genesis I would've bought DS4. I wasn't interested and I bought Poser 2012 instead. If I wanted to use Genesis now I wouldn't bother struggling to make it work in Poser, I'd download DS and use that. 

Quote - Better to use Dawn and have a good customer base, than make things for a niche market like toons.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

You have no clue how small or large my customer base is and this has nothing to do with dawn at all, besides Toons aren't that niche at all. Do not underestimate the number of toon lovers that use Poser and DS. I always thought the same way as you do, but since I'm selling my toon items, I know differently by the number of items I sell each month, month after month, year after year.

Back to Dawn..... just don't claim to be a new era for poser and give me the same I've had for years that's all I want to say. As a vendor I had the opportunity to try Dawn long before it was out on the market. I've tried various versions, including the final release and it just didn't impress me at all, it's not the new era I would expect at all.

And some of us have been there from the start and had her before you got the early edition.

I can'nt say anything else due to NDA's.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - And some of us have been there from the start and had her before you got the early edition.

I can'nt say anything else due to NDA's.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

What difference does that make? Is there some brownie points for getting an earlier release where the figure is even more unfinished? How does that affect the outcome when the final release is still not up to par or expectation levels?

I have seen how it has developed.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - I have seen how it has developed.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Umm most of us have. I know lots of fellow PA's who have seen it way before you. But what difference does that make? How does that change anything? You are not even a Vendor or a PA, and they are the ones who get first access to develop on or report bugs and issues.

As I said, NDA's stop me saying more.

All the best.

GReat Uncle LROG

Quote - As I said, NDA's stop me saying more.

All the best.

GReat Uncle LROG

Yawn... Anyways it means nothing who saw her first, all that matters is her affects on the market now.

 I know Dawn has come a long way from what she was, but so does any figure (or whatever content one creates) before it's released. The problem is that Dawn hasn't come far enough, she hasn't reached the way she was hyped at all. If you're going to promote a figure as the dawn of a new era you better live up to it, it's as simple as that. She's not the dawn of a new era at all, she's just another poser figure, same old same old..... unfortunatelly :-(

The time passes and nothing changes, I always see the same users are striving to turn the conversations to get their snacks (DAZ Ultra mega HD technology , EXTRA EXTRA "the people massively turns one genesis 1"  -sorry, I forgot that G1 was a failure G2 now... soon G3 and  we have to buy everything back -  blah blah blah ,blah blah blah,blah blah blah... , I understand they are selling , but really sound very desperate...

you know that this site is a place to discuss things about DAZ, with trillions of users like daz ¿ has to need to come to denature in discussions here?

back to the original topic I think it's too early to give an opinion on the impact of DAWN , time will show , I  desire to work very well and becomes a new alternative

Quote - This is a nice gesture from them, but it hurts them financially. They do not see profits from content sold on other sites. Want to help them grow? Sell there. So you have to decide, help Hivewire, or help yourself:) Danger is if you keep helping yourself, there might not be a Hivewire left in the long run. At the same time it's a hard decision just selling there, because they haven't really been tested in the market. So it's really a choice you have to think about.

I took the risk and moved everything from my former publisher to Hivewire, knowing I'd probably take a hit financially for the next year.  I obviously didn't do the move for the money, I did it on principle. I had issues with how I and my products were being treated by marketing, and I decided that artistic freedom and having my wishes respected were more important than selling a few additional copies of a product.  I made the move to support Chris Creek (a longtime friend).  I also wanted to send a message to my former publisher that some artists don't appreciated being treated the way their marketing department was treating them (and some might do something about it).  I'm with Hivewire for the long term where my creativity isn't hampered by marketing and the management is upfront, friendly and honest.

To the thread's question... Has any healing occurred in the community thanks to Hivewire/Dawn? Yes and no... Hivewire has clearly spelled out that they are program agnostic and try to have versions for both programs in their store. People, for the most part, have tried to get along in the forums and until recently there has been no forum moderation at all-- forumites were well behaved.  Sadly, a few trolls and hackers recently have slammed their cudgels disrupting a perfect record.

The real problem with the division is that DAZ and Smith-Micro have competing products.  For those arguing that Smith-Micro isn't reaching out, remember that Poser is how Smith-Micro makes its money, not on content. DAZ Studio is a threat to Poser and not vice versa.  I don’t think there’s any easy solution to this, other than one of the two programs disappearing.  I would suggest the solution to the bridging the divide is not focusing on the way it was created but on the art that was produced.  It’s a similar issue with the Maya/Max/etc  universe Vs. the DAZ/Poser universe or even traditional art Vs. digital art.  It doesn’t whether you used the most expensive oils or canyons--  it’s the end result,... the art that counts.

Quote - It doesn’t whether you used the most expensive oils or canyons--  it’s the end result,... the art that counts.

 

To me, it does matter what oils and crayons (products) you use, especially the canvas. (figure or software) Did you enjoy making the art or was it a painful experience? Was the figure or app a pleasant experience or was it limiting? Was it a simple process or did I have to jump through hoops to get a specific result? These factors are just as important to the user as the final result. If I drive the car, its not just about me reaching my destination (render), its about the journey there (process). Did the car give me problems? Or was the ride a smooth and pleasant one? The journey there, as well as the final destination are all part of the experience.

Quote - The time passes and nothing changes, I always see the same users are striving to turn the conversations to get their snacks (DAZ Ultra mega HD technology , EXTRA EXTRA "the people massively turns one genesis 1"  -sorry, I forgot that G1 was a failure G2 now... soon G3 and  we have to buy everything back -  blah blah blah ,blah blah blah,blah blah blah... , I understand they are selling , but really sound very desperate...

you know that this site is a place to discuss things about DAZ, with trillions of users like daz ¿ has to need to come to denature in discussions here?

back to the original topic I think it's too early to give an opinion on the impact of DAWN , time will show , I  desire to work very well and becomes a new alternative

LOL, 2 years and they're still trying to convince everyone it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Didn't work 2 years ago and it's not going to work now.  Obiviously, to all but those who are too blind to see.

The ignore feature works well after giving it a healthy test run in this thread alone.

Well my 2peneth is that I've tried Dawn but to be honest I dont really get on with her, my favourite is & always will be V4. I saw someone post that people only want genesis for poser to play with a new shiny toy, thats not true in my case, I tried Daz4 but cant get to grips with it, I try very hard to use Genesis in poser but only because some items are Genesis ONLY, so example I loved an outfit, I cant use daz4 so the only way I can use it is with genesis in poser. I'm actually dissappointed in the amount of Genesis ONLY or Dawn ONLY clothing around, I've got now if its not compatable with V4 I don't buy it.

After all that my opinion is whichever program you like or find easier you should use it, Daz or Poser use whatever you want, just dont come ramming the one other people dont use down peoples throat, and stop with the Daz Vs Poser war its getting very boring! Use whatever you like best and stop moaning about the other theres plenty around for everyone! :D

I have to say one more thing. I've never been a big fan of one figure being able to morph into several others. That includes not only Genesis, but V4 as well. I didn't like it when V4 was able to morph into Stephanie 4, Aiko 4, The Girl 4, She Freak 4, and the V4 Male. Obviously she was the precursor for Genesis 1. I find it interesting that Genesis 2 is a step backward for the "ultimate technology" figure.

One of the big things I can't figure out is why vendors were so reluctant to include morphs in clothing for other morphs, more specifically, Stephanie 4. Most of the time I had to use a script to get V4 clothes to fit S4.

Thing is, I like figure diversity, and both Genesis and V4  genrally produce a certain "look" that let's you know that they are morphs of V4 or Genesis.  V4 is so distinct in her look to me that after a while I never bothered to buy any character morphs for her anymore.

I suspect Dawn will eventually follow suit and provide character morphs, but not everyone in the world is a six foot tall big boobed fashion model.

I'm kind of pissed right now at SM because Poser 10's Roxie and Rex have borrowed from that paradigm. Both Roxie and Rex are great looking figures, but they have almost no morphing ability to change body type, and while you can change their facial type in the Face room, They didn't provide any african american  texture maps.

Okay, that's my rant for today. Carry on.

Quote - I have to say one more thing. I've never been a big fan of one figure being able to morph into several others.

Agreed. I never liked that about V4 either. It was so much better having A3 and H3 as seperate figures. They lose so much of what makes them distinctive characters when they become just morphs. A3 is still one of my favourite figures.

A good part of that is marketing and business strategy. Its a lot of work to develop a figure mesh that bends and animates properly, so if you - as a business - can find a way to reuse and resell the same mesh and just put a different label and packaging on it, it saves that business a lot of time and expense that would be spent on developing multiple meshes.  But the plus side to it is that savings allows for these figures to cost the end user much less than it would otherwise.

But with that said, just about any mesh can be made to look like a completely different figure if enough time is spent on sculpting it and the mesh can support it. 

With Poser it's a bit different (or at least it was before) due to the grouping and rigging that cause limitations to body shapes and sizes. With weightmapping and animated joints, and now better scaling, it should be much easier to make one poser mesh look like 10 very different people if that's the goal. As long as the mesh has enough geometry to support it, and I'm not talking about SubD. SubD has its uses and benefits, but it's no substitute for geometry because it can't add edgeflow that isn't there to begin with. It can only divide what's already present. 

There's also the added element that each artist has his/her own style, and that style is going to be obvious to anyone that's familiar with the artists work. Since most of the character sets available for V4 are all based on the same morph shapes, (created by the same original artist(s) they're all going to look relatively the same. But look at some of the completely custom body/face morphs out there, by artists that didn't use morph sets, some of them you can't tell at all that it's a DAZ figure unless you look at the mesh. 

Personally I think it adds consistency and a more professional look to a scene when all the characters look like they were created by the same artist. When there are multiple figures from multiple artists/sources in one scene it just looks bad, more often than not, and starts reminding me of that VH1 show from a few years back, Drawn Together.

Plus you also have to consider the diversity of content, which would be even more limited if every figure had to have its own wardrobe. People would still choose one figure or body shape to support and that one would be the one that had the most content available. 

However I don't think male and female figures should use the same mesh. The male and female bodies are too different to pull it off well in most instances. If there's enough geometry there for shaping then it's fine, but with this trend of trying to make every figure 10,000 polys or less (for no logical reason with todays processing power), male and female shapes are much more difficult to make believable from the same mesh, so it's going to look either too feminine or too masculine.

That's my take on it anyway.

~Shane

Quote - I have to say one more thing. I've never been a big fan of one figure being able to morph into several others. That includes not only Genesis, but V4 as well. I didn't like it when V4 was able to morph into Stephanie 4, Aiko 4, The Girl 4, She Freak 4, and the V4 Male. Obviously she was the precursor for Genesis 1.

Not sure why the conversation keeps steering to genesis and DAZ, but if you look on Hivewire forums, Chris is also using Dawn's base to make a horse. Though I doubt you would get clothing to fit with the changed rigging, You probably do some interesting things with the morph between the two. I'm sure that's going to upset you too, but it's a bit more economical to reuse the mesh. I'm sure antonia, my michelle, and roxie could have benefitted if they all came from the same mesh and base rigging support-wise.

And that's really the advantage of making things from the same mesh; you can combine different things to make new creatures or characters and not worry as much about clothing support, which has been the downfall of all those aforementioned characters... and why they're barely mentioned now. And buying tools to convert skins and clothing is something that Genesis users take for granted when they use the different characters... which range from short aliens, Victoria, Mike to Mr Hyde and everything in between.

Quote - I find it interesting that Genesis 2 is a step backward for the "ultimate technology" figure.

Genesis 2 is a step back only in the fact that a lot of vendors had trouble envisioning gender-specific clothing from a neutral base. Also it was harder to model clothing with breasts on a figure with none. Nothing specifically wrong with the tech, but it was an inconvenience to some vendors. Now with the female base available, I'm sure you noticed a bit more vendors making things for V6, expecially a few that did not make anything for Gen1.

Also you probably noticed that the first staff bundle here was for V6, not V4 or Dawn... I'm sure they didn't do that just to be nice. Dawn was the last of the first batch of bundles, just to put things in perspective.

Quote - One of the big things I can't figure out is why vendors were so reluctant to include morphs in clothing for other morphs, more specifically, Stephanie 4. Most of the time I had to use a script to get V4 clothes to fit S4.

Providing fits for a single character's morphs is one of the most tedious things for a content maker to do. It takes a lot of time to create morphs for the different body morphs, like body buider or heavy; now add a different charcter such as S4. You're spending more time on fits than adding movement morphs and things to make the outfit more interesting. 

Quote - Thing is, I like figure diversity, and both Genesis and V4  genrally produce a certain "look" that let's you know that they are morphs of V4 or Genesis.  V4 is so distinct in her look to me that after a while I never bothered to buy any character morphs for her anymore.

If you're looking at rendo, I can understand the V4s and Genesis as a good chunk of the vendors are using the morphs++ to make the morphs rather than custom morphs. Then making the genesis version of morphs++ morphs using GenX (which really against the EULA as morph++ can't be used in GenX as a custom morph... you can only convert morphs for sale you actually own.)

But there are a few vendors that are making custom morphs that look nothing like the default V4 or making custom creatures. And there are a few vendors for Dawn that are making standout characters because they are using custom morphs rather than the starter morphs... and it's those vendors that will push the quality of the content forward.

Quote - I suspect Dawn will eventually follow suit and provide character morphs, but not everyone in the world is a six foot tall big boobed fashion model.

Well her base is being used for a horse and dragon.

Quote - I'm kind of pissed right now at SM because Poser 10's Roxie and Rex have borrowed from that paradigm. Both Roxie and Rex are great looking figures, but they have almost no morphing ability to change body type, and while you can change their facial type in the Face room, They didn't provide any african american  texture maps.

Generally any company is going to give you the most popular gender for the base and it's up to the content providers or yourself to build from that. So yes, it's not surprising everyone starts with the same type of characters. Characters of other races don't sell in the same volume though some demand those type of characters, that's why you don't see them as much.

Some are touching the main issue of a "human" mesh.

Wanna build a human figure? The mesh polygon and edgeflow has to follow human body and facial muscle topology.

Wanna build a "one size fits all"??
Forget muscle topology, and the same time forget to build a good humen figure at all.

A good "human" mesh has to follow human muscle topology.

The "one mesh does it all" will have its customers, sure, but it is not the solution.

Why pick on the toons?  Show me where the bad toon touched you.  :P

Niche can still work if you have a large enough audience to support it or if there is not a lot of competition in the creation department.  This is a random, made-up example:  If 5 guys are making Roxie content and a smaller number of users are looking for it, there still may be a respectable audience for that.  You would have to make the attempt to know.  If 300 vendors are making V4 content and the number of users is reasonably large, you still might not have the sales you want depending on what you made, what is already out there and so on.  Popularity doesn't mean you are going to be successful every time, particularly with a figure that has been out 7 years.  However, that is not to say pick the most unloved figure out there either.

My Samedi figure is absolutely niche, a toon, and has done well all things considered.  I made it because I wanted to and I was passionate.  Yeah there are a dozen things I'd probably do differently.  It's not the end all of anything though, just a toon, just a figure.  Once I enjoy immensely but it is what it is.

Genesis is going to be mentioned because it is current, usable in Poser to some degree and is a fore runner.  Same with V4 and DAZ makes both.  On page one was mentioned by you guys "However she will never reach V4 and Genesis status".  I guess that kind of comment tends to start folks off.  :P

Quote - Genesis is going to be mentioned because it is current, usable in Poser to some degree and is a fore runner.  Same with V4 and DAZ makes both.  On page one was mentioned by you guys "However she will never reach V4 and Genesis status".  I guess that kind of comment tends to start folks off.  :P

"You guys"?

Actually if you read the first page, the DAZ convo wasn't started by any of "those guys"... someone else stirred the pot with a bit of incorrect speculation. Just wanted to add make that clear.

If someone says something wrong, then, yeah, someone is going to step in to correct that statement.

The problem with people these days is they want things instantly.

"I want this, I wan't that" and the figure hasn't been out that long.

If people wait a little bit, things "MAY" appear.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote -
A good "human" mesh has to follow human muscle topology.

The "one mesh does it all" will have its customers, sure, but it is not the solution.

Like software, the mesh is a tool.  The artist should use the tool that meets their needs*...

Quote - The problem with people these days is they want things instantly.

"I want this, I wan't that" and the figure hasn't been out that long.

If people wait a little bit, things "MAY" appear.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Dawn is like a new game console, with no backward compatibility and with very few new launch titles, and very few AAA releases. You think people are just going to sit and stare at the screen waiting for content to arrive? They want to play now. Why wait when the other consoles are releasing content at a much faster rate with some seriously good AAA releases? And where are the exclusive inhouse releases that show-off that console? That should be out of the gate at launch, not later down the line. People want to be wow'ed at that initial period, not having to wait.

People needs to understand that HiveWire is a small group. It takes time to put stuff together if you want it done well.. I think they are doing a great job, and I enjoy Dawn very much...

Yep, that's why you had to come out with your morphs for the DAZ figures.

When Dawn appeared, I asked if Saintfox was doing a LivingDoll MR, yep,one was in the pipeline.

Now I had to wait a while after she had been out before that MR to appeared. I wasn't bouncing about saying it should be here and now.

I waited and it came out. No matter what people want, if it is not there, no matter of indignation will make it appear any quicker,

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - People needs to understand that HiveWire is a small group. It takes time to put stuff together if you want it done well.. I think they are doing a great job, and I enjoy Dawn very much...

Granted, that is true. However, this morph pack they are releasing has to be revolutionary or better than what is currently on offer for other figures or its really not going to change anything. They have a chance to bring this new era, lets see if they can deliver. Let's wait for that wow factor.

Quote - Yep, that's why you had to come out with your morphs for the DAZ figures.

Because they have proven to be a success, and a profitable business and a good investment. Also I just love the G base mesh. It allows me to do what I want to do. Some of us do this full time, so we cannot afford to take risks on new figures who have not yet proven themselves, specially if backed by a new site with no proven track record (not former Daz's track record, but Hivewires). Many Vendors cannot afford to do so, it's why you won't find content from them. Some did try during Dawns initial release and reverted back to V4 and have not released another Dawn product. Want to guess why? It's something not all customers understand unless in the same position. We have huge development costs and sometimes we just break even depending on that products success. Sure we do make profits as well, but its not always fairy dust and unicorns. Yes sure supporting a new figure gets you a round of applause from the community, but how does that help you when you are not generating enough to profits on that product release? I look at the market Dawn is aiming at, and its fragmented, because she can only be used by a handful of Poser users who have the latest version, and is redundant in DS against the Genesis figure line. Compare that to V4 that works in nearly every version of Poser, and you get your answer as to the size of the market difference. So from there you can gage possible max profits based on that information. Also the fact that the Mesh and default shape is not to my liking does not help. Maybe you should become a Vendor, then maybe you will understand why certain decisions are made on content releases, and why they are only for certain figures.

Ididn't see anything particularly damning about Genesis or DAZ, least not on page one of this thread.  Except folks saying they do or don't use it, or care for it.  Seems rather civil.  I don't use it.  shrug  That doesn't really affect anything but me.

Or maybe it was later on about DAZ splitting the market?  Good, bad or ugly, that happened.  It really had little to do with Genesis or Poser adopting this or that, it started with Curious Labs went down and DAZ felt it needed its own app because Poser's future was uncertain.

The split has gotten wider but does anyone really think this wasn't inevitable?  When DS arrived it adopted the Poser tech to have a hold in the market, not a love or hate thing.  DS4 it wants its own formats and other things and DAZ is disinterested in making native Poser figures.  Is it okay for them to decide to do that?  Sure it is.

I don't subscribe to it, as in I'm not really interested, but that doesn't mean I don't agree with them.  I also agree with SM not wanting to hitch their trailer to constantly changing tech.  That sounds quite reasonable to me.

Maybe that wasn't written eloquently by others but so what.  If I was into Genesis, I'd be using DS.  It  makes a lot of sense to be using and creating for something in its native environment.  There's a method provided to use Genesis in Poser and either you deal with the shortcomings/quirks/whatnot or you deal yourself out.

I have been a vendor here at Rendo previously, I don't do it now as I like to do freebies.

Also, I don't need the extra pressure of spending X amount of time doing something and wondering if it will sell.

While others are vendors, I do things that have NDA's attached to them and I spend quite some time doing those things so that others get to enjoy what appears in the future.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG