My computer is four years old and without an Nvidia card and both G3 and Iray play nicely.

In fact rendering doesn't seem to load my system as much as 3Delight did.

even if I wanted to

So you admit that you don't want to try. Bye bye.

even if I wanted to

So you admit that you don't want to try. Bye bye.

Yes I think this is the issue too. The thing is, DAZ can't innovate and improve its products while accommodating those that refuse to grow. I think there's lots of things that they wanted to do with Genesis 2 but held off on because they felt not enough people had the horsepower or willing to learn. But with Genesis 3, they're making the turn with making their products in line with industry standards, and that finally means saying goodbye to things that they've done before. Not everyone is ready for that, so they have the older figures to work with and use. They haven't stopped working. There's a few things I have for Genesis 2 that I'll keep there, but I want to move a few things forward if I can as well, and improve them. This isn't a cheap hobby, and I've spent a lot of money on content and hardware to support the program, probably more that most of my customers. My hardware is similar to a gaming rig because you want the viewport not to be sluggish, especially when you load in some fiber mesh hair. That setup has eased my transition to iray, and I have previously octane licenses (which i've basically shelved support on) and luxrender/reality support (which support is shelved as well). But the point is people shouldn't ask companies to stop innovating because they refuse to learn. No business will nor should accommodate that, use the content you have and if support dies, you will have to learn what it takes to keep your characters content going. But don't be surprised or expect sympathy when you are left behind. This is artwork, but this also a technology-based hobby and the tech is going to move forward whether you like it or not because frankly business have to keep their customer happy by giving them content that improves what they do. And there are far more that want to improve than those that don't, that's how DAZ can do what they do so well, and get companies such as Nvidia to work deals so DS customers can use a $600 tool for no cost to them.

Thank you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's what especially Poser suffers from. From People, who are afraid, that they cannot render their "Victoria4-as-a-fairy-in-a-pixi dress-sitting-on-a-mushroom-in-a-middle-of-a-forrest" scenes anymore. Time to go on. This is true for DS and Poser.

IRAY and G3: I am a DAZ fan now.

Well this is my point of view.

Use Poser 2003 version 4 and by the time I reached a good Acquaintances of 'use of this, but with the coming of the figure I used Victoria 6 DSON to work with it in Poser Pro 2014 I bought these items for many years my figures (clothes, hair, etc.) I bought Reality 3:04 to get always render more realistic although this often gave me problems to remove the version of Poser 4 due to crash and waiting for the next release that Paul says be 10 times faster (and I hope also 10 times more reliable, and not leaking between the scene and render some objects like hair or the clothes) then about three weeks ago I discover that DAZ has the opportunity to let me use the render iray that I find very beautiful so I exhaust the new version 4.8 Iradium and I start to study the software.

Currently I made two test render, surely I have not set optimally even the interface of the program and its functions, but thanks to the help and tutorials slowly I'm trying to figure out how to master the software itself at least as I could with Poser .

I will learn the cloth dynamic and change over time as the materials with Poser but in return to all the study and the bad results will have a good free program that will allow me to work with all existing and figures that will come in much more quickly than with poser via DSON with render quality.

In conclusion are involved in the use of a new program would say excited by the start almost from scratch, and believes he can achieve great results, the only regret is that I want to find an easy and immediate way to convert from V4 or V6 all the clothes and hair I possess to V7.

Sorry for my bad english

Mac pro 4.1 2 xeon processor 32 gb ram Nvidia gtx 680 mac edition 2 gb ddr5

Getting clothes on genesis 3 from previous generations is fairly easy. It has a genesis 2 clone so all g2 clothing fits. Not too sure about shoes. If you want v4 clothes on genesis 3, fit them to genesis2 and save that as a genesis 2 item then it can be autofitted to genesis3 since that is the only available clone. Pretty sure more clones will come out expanding backward compatibility.

Zev0 thanks you can tell me the tutorial'

But don't be surprised or expect sympathy when you are left behind. This is artwork, but this also a technology-based hobby and the tech is going to move forward whether you like it or not

Time to go on. This is true for DS and Poser.
That is the problem!!!.  No, it is not time for them to move on!  They and everything else needs to STOP moving on!  I hate how fast tech changes, I hate new technology, and have since being subjected to beepers.  I don't own, hate to use, and despise mobile phones, laptops, etc.  I hate how every year I get older, and more and more of the relics of my childhood, including loved ones, die!  Every year they get older and sicker!  I hate time, I hate the laws of physics regarding them, and I hate change!!  This should not exist, just like suffering should not exist!  I'm so sick of this, of all of this!!!

TIME SHOULD NOT GO ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just autofit v4 clothing item to genesis2, save that clothing item as clothing g2, then autofit that onto genesis 3. Think you might need v4 for genesis 2 for the clone though in order to use v4 clothing. I cant give exact steps because I am in a bar at the moment and don't have my laptop on me lol. Pretty sure somebody else will fill in the gaps:)

TIME SHOULD NOT GO ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unfortunately it does and we all have to move with it to stay viable, specially with regards to tech.

But don't be surprised or expect sympathy when you are left behind. This is artwork, but this also a technology-based hobby and the tech is going to move forward whether you like it or not

Time to go on. This is true for DS and Poser.
That is the problem!!!.  No, it is not time for them to move on!  They and everything else needs to STOP moving on!  I hate how fast tech changes, I hate new technology, and have since being subjected to beepers.  I don't own, hate to use, and despise mobile phones, laptops, etc.  I hate how every year I get older, and more and more of the relics of my childhood, including loved ones, die!  Every year they get older and sicker!  I hate time, I hate the laws of physics regarding them, and I hate change!!  This should not exist, just like suffering should not exist!  I'm so sick of this, of all of this!!!

TIME SHOULD NOT GO ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unfortunately the world and the rest of humankind is not going to stop for you. Perhaps you would rather live in an era of poor almost non existent medicine inequality etc etc.

If the advance of technology upsets you so much then it might well be better to get out now.

Well,

I'd like for time to move little slower, too.

For example I have no smartphone either and my next car I'm planning to buy will be a mid-60's Opel.

 And except for my two Acer Laptops, I don't have any "millenium" tech in my home. Not even a TV-set.

Soo, I completely understand where IceEmpress is coming from.

SM was basically asleep behind the wheel for the last decade, but DAZ going all out "professional" will shut out a lot of hobbyists who are just in it for the fun.

For example, Genesis 3 will be complete useless for me even in Studio, as I don't belong to the elite few "professionals", that are granted access to the sacred HD-Sculpting tool.

And without that, I can't compensate for G3's lack of polygons.

(And if I wanted to use displacement or normal maps or any other geometry faking nonsense, I could just as well based my work on Roxy)

So, no HD-tool, no full control over the mesh.

And without full control, I won't waste my time "learning" a new figure and app.

Pity.

But this is a direct result of DAZ "going professional". They are relegating artists that really want to work with G3 to mere customers.

So it's back to my own hi-res hybrid meshes. At least they can do everything I want without the need of "secret" tech.

Yes, DAZ is pretty much right. In a capitalistic world, they made better choices than SM did.

But just let's not pretend that everything is just smelling like roses.

If you move too fast, some things will get lost.

Lol just become a PA at Daz, sell your soul and the hd tools are yours:) It is the only way you will get it for now unless they decide to change their policy:) Regarding the hobbiest market, I doubt they're leaving them behind, instead I feel they are bringing them into the pro sector. Giving them the assets to use their content to make better animations etc and more compatibility with other apps.

Lol just become a PA at Daz, sell your soul and the hd tools are yours:) It is the only way you will get it for now unless they decide to change their policy:)

And I don't quite understand the "I need a bunch a polygons to sculpt, so give me HD" argument. If you're creating, then you should know HD will not determine your work. People using other apps don't have access and they use industry standard techniques to make their detailed works. And this is what is about if you're not a PA. You have a base to work with and you use your skills to make the mesh more or less detailed as you want. HD is simply and internal tool that DAZ allows PAs to use with strict guidelines, so I can't use it for my personal work, freebies or things not sold in DAZ. That's were the industry standards come into play if I wish to give things away or for my own use. Things start with the low poly base then you use your skill to work with that mesh into your vision if you're truly going to create. 

But don't be surprised or expect sympathy when you are left behind. This is artwork, but this also a technology-based hobby and the tech is going to move forward whether you like it or not

Time to go on. This is true for DS and Poser.
That is the problem!!!.  No, it is not time for them to move on!  They and everything else needs to STOP moving on!  I hate how fast tech changes, I hate new technology, and have since being subjected to beepers.  I don't own, hate to use, and despise mobile phones, laptops, etc.  I hate how every year I get older, and more and more of the relics of my childhood, including loved ones, die!  Every year they get older and sicker!  I hate time, I hate the laws of physics regarding them, and I hate change!!  This should not exist, just like suffering should not exist!  I'm so sick of this, of all of this!!!

TIME SHOULD NOT GO ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you can figure out a way to make it stop, be sure to let us know.  :P

If you think it is bad as an artist, try being a programmer for a living.  Of course when I started out, all we had was CGA, which was 320x200 resolution with your choice of three whole colors - red green and yellow, or purple pink and white.  And it wasn't that long ago, I am talking 1988 when EGA was young and VGA was an infant.  Hard drives were 40 mb, memory was 640k.

So choose when you want to stop time carefully.  

Equipment and software keeps evolving and new technologies become possible.  Heck, in five years we may be rendering holographs.

5? I say less than  2 years lol.

Sorry, Zev0 and M3M, but that's BS.

My "skill" ?

If I wanted to build figures from scratch, I wouldn't waste my time with Poser or Studio.

The Gen 3 figures had enough polys to create detailed, life like sculpts without the need of any "super secret PA-only tools". Heck, I did my first sculpts by using hundreds of Poser magnets.

V4 had fewer polys, G1 even fewer, G2 a few more, and now we're back to fewer again.

So, how do I create DETAILED sculpts with such few polygons without the HD tool?

I can't.

Not without changing G3's base mesh radically, and if I do that, everything needs to be re-rigged from scratch, and then I can just as well stick with the figures I already custom rigged myself.

No, DAZ wants me to stay a passive consumer, buying the cool HD morphs you, Zev0 or Rawart create.

But they don't want me to be able to make my own.

(Not to mention that HD morphs made for a certain sculpt are pretty much useless for another sculpt. So even if I be a good customer and buy your HD morphs, they'd be useless for my own sculpts.)

And that pretty much sucks.

DAZ is taking away full control of G3 out of greed.

It's "good buisiness", yes, and the average "click-click-render" crowd that never does more than rendering pre-made stuff might not care, but it IS limiting options.

Unfortunately if you want to use their figures you need to abide by their rules. Want the specialized tools, then there is only one way to get it. Fyi I asked that they made the tool public. But once that happens, the secrets of how it works will be leakes and Daz spent a crap load of money investing in it. So from their side I understand why they keeping a tight lid on it only giving it to those who will use it to pay back some of that investment. In some ways it's unfair, but it's their tool and they decide who gets it.

SM was basically asleep behind the wheel for the last decade, but DAZ going all out "professional" will shut out a lot of hobbyists who are just in it for the fun.
Exactly.  Expect DAZ to get more "complex" and less user-friendly (also known as "locked" by Linux/Ubuntu/MAX/Blender users)  Expect freebies (including PC+ freebies) to be either static (we already have a bunch of those, but I'm talking about just stagnant freebies) or for them to grind down to 1 freebie per month, just like the industry standard.
Someone may only want to buy a single model for an indie license, rather than a license for everything on the site.  So out with the low hobbyist prices, in with the "prohibitively expensive because it comes with a dev license just like TurboSquid and CGTrader models" prices.  Finally, expect the industry standard of woefully unfriendly search and dropdown category features just like you see on TurboSquid, CGTrader, etc. (no, I mean even WORSE than what Daz has now-- FAR worse)  Welcome to the industry standard, everybody!

But this is a direct result of DAZ "going professional". They are relegating artists that really want to work with G3 to mere customers.
Yes.  Which really smacks in the face when you consider that a LOT of these professionals (I do not know the percentage however) look down upon getting a commercial license to use someone else's models rather than make/rig one themselves from scratch.   This includes freeware game devs as well, BTW (though they don't seem to have a problem with using models in an UNREAL Engine-based game that were ripped off of videogames for XNALara, strangely enough)

If you think it is bad as an artist, try being a programmer for a living.
That is, in fact, one of the reasons that this bothers me-- the little guy can't keep up with the technology, but the big leagues don't give a crap.  It feels like DAZ is doing the same thing to PAs (esp. the small-time ones as opposed to those who know their way around DAZ, ZBrush, and whatever else they use like. 
The technology thing also greatly bothers me due to the crisis we ALREADY have as a result of automation-- and it's only going to get worse-- eventually, there won't be any entry-level jobs left (they will be replaced entirely by automation and the one or two mechanics/programmers/engineers/whar have you who supervise the machinery)  My soul mate is a pharmacy tech-- he doesn't believe me, but chances are he will lose his job to a combination of automated machinery, dispensers, and an AI that does the prescription fact-checking-- in a decade or less.  It's just a matter of developing that AI and making it feasible for pharmacies and retailers throughout the country to adopt it.
Folks, this is what the passage of time, and fast-paced technology gets you.

Actually Daz's plan is to provide industry standard at hobbiest prices. Pointless trying to compete if the price is the same as what they already have at Turbosquid etc. And I am a PA and I feel no different about G3. Business as usual, just a new figure to develop for. In no way do I feel they have made things harder for us, but instead opened up new doors to other markets.

Sure, that may be their plan NOW.  Problem is, people-- professional or not-- tend to pull 180's down the line. 

I just noticed that I forgot to use italics in my last post, so it looks like the quote is from me.

"DAZ going all out "professional" will shut out a lot of hobbyists who are just in it for the fun."

I never understand why statements like this spring forth. Has sales to professionals (yes there have always been sales to people who make an income from 3d) been "shutting out" the hobbyist when it happened before? No. Why on earth would DAZ "shut out" hobbyists? Why would 300 PA's stop producing for a known market that they need to survive? Why does adding potential end anything? Why do people go off the deep end any time the possibility arises of an expanded market? An increased POSSIBILITY of sales to people who use different programs in no way changes the dependence on the current customer base. That may be different in 5 years but it is very likely that the hobbyist sector will have seen some dynamic change as well.

"So, how do I create DETAILED sculpts with such few polygons without the HD tool?" I guess you do it the way every other person who is not a DAZ pa does it all over the CGI industry.

"-- eventually, there won't be any entry-level jobs left (they will be replaced entirely by automation and the one or two mechanics/programmers/engineers/whar have you who supervise the machinery) "

That's a little bit out of the general DAZ discussion, but I agree with you there, it has been happening for quite a while.  While robots can replace assembly line workers, the can't replace white color jobs, but computers and AI in general has.  It used to take an army of accountants to run a good sized company's accounting department, now you can get a away with a hand full.  Same with the rest of the people that pretty much shuffled papers from one desk to another.  It's called "increased productivity" - basically doing more with less people.  In theory this frees them up to do other, less tedious jobs.  The new jobs however don't seem to be showing up.  There's a bit of political fervor over that these days...

Our socio-economic system seems to be out of whack with our technology, that's why the middle class is disappearing and all those billionaires are showing up instead.

Getting back to DAZ though, the fear seems to be where they are going to go in the future rather than what they are doing now.  As a long time DAZ customer, when they were annoying me was back around two years ago when they couldn't seem to find a direction - I was one of the people who paid for a full version of DS 4.0 before they turned around and made it free, and I had to suffer through the incredibly poor move to the new store after that (And kudo's to Rendo, their transition ran much smoother).

But DAZ has been in a place for a long time that everybody else is just getting to - you give away the software, you sell the services and support.  Obviously the development of that software has to be paid for, they are set up where that happens.  Smith Micro sells you the software, and is dependent on someone else to service it.

That model is starting to fail, even Microsoft figured that out. 

Personally I feel better about the future of working with DAZ products than I have in a while.  I don't see what they did with V7 as a move in the wrong direction, and the results of using G3 thus far have been pretty amazing.  Now bring on the males.

"I guess you do it the way every other person who is not a DAZ pa does it all over the CGI industry"

Then pray tell how exactly "every other person who is not a DAZ PA does it" ?

Seriously, I happily admit that after 15 years of 3D modelling, texturing, shader making, light making, pose making, custom sculpting and custom rigging, I don't have a clue how to ADD MORE REAL DETAIL to G3's low res geometry APART from a displacement or a normal map.

Which are of course both infeasible because they mess with the rigging, cause cloth pokethrough and do not show up in my OpenGL preview.

What are my options, other than to start with a high res mesh?

I'd really like to know, because if there's another method without any of the drawbacks of the previous described methods, I'm puzzled why DAZ keeps their HD tool such a closely guarded secret?

If you enforce "Standards", then freedom has to go.

Creating better tech is one thing, adhering to arbitrary "industry standards" is something completely other.

These "standards" might be good for "The industry", but who says they might automatically be good for "The hobbyist" crowd, too?

I was dead set against SM  "Going Pro", I'm just as dead set against Studio trying to do the same.

I want realistic figures with realistic bends and I can achieve that without the need for "standards".

I've proven that several times.

All this "standards" thing is DAZ hoping to hit the big time one day.

(Didn't work in the past and I doubt we'll ever see a Vicky starring in a major flic, but that's just my personal opinion.)

Good for them.

But I don't care about that. And I doubt the majority of hobbyist users will care about that, too.

I care about having a figure at my disposal which I have 100% control over.

And that's not the case with G3. (Or G2,or G1, despite their other remarkable advantages)

The non DAZ figures are no good, because they are poorly made.

The DAZ figures are no good because they are "too professional".

I think that pretty much sums it up.

"Then pray tell how exactly "every other person who is not a DAZ PA does it" ?"

Based on my reading they take it to zbrush then subd the base figure for higher detail. Then they do morphs, adjustments etc then take sub d off and export the morph. They also do a fair bit of work on the figure with displacements and so forth for things like wrinkles etc. They they take that high resolution information to a program like substance painter where they are able to use the information to bake the correct maps to get the desired look without having to have such a high dencity mesh. Of course all of this is only based on a few hours of research related to other things since I don't have zbrush.

Load up V7 in Studio, apply the V7 normal maps and see the level of detail. Don't dial up the HD morph because its the same as the normal map (created from HD morph). Now tell me you can't get high detail without HD tools.

Zev0, normal maps are not REAL geometry.

I don't want to just "look" at it.

I need to SCULPT it.

I don't care about V7's default shape.

And again, if its all the same, why does DAZ keep it such a big secret?

Nope, the HD morphs can do things only an actual high res polygon mesh can do.

So either give me a "proper" high res figure (Like V3) or give me the HD tool.

Why does KFC keep their recipe a secret?

See, I have no real problem with the fact that they keep it a secret.

They are a buisiness and after all, I already have all the figures I ever need.

Me rooting for better figures was always rooting for the "little guys" who can't or don't want to build their own stuff like me.

But I have a problem when you guys try to tell me that it doesn't matter.

And that progress is INEVITBLE and ALWAYS for the better.

THAT's what I wanted to point out.

I just don't think trying to relegate hobbyist artists to mere customers is such a smart move.

The professional 3D world is a lot harsher than that cosy little Poserverse we all used to live in.

DAZ is a big fish in a small pond.

Will they also be a big fish in the ocean?

Zev0, normal maps are not REAL geometry.

I don't want to just "look" at it.

I need to SCULPT it.

I don't care about V7's default shape.

And again, if its all the same, why does DAZ keep it such a big secret?

Nope, the HD morphs can do things only an actual high res polygon mesh can do.

So either give me a "proper" high res figure (Like V3) or give me the HD tool.

In zbrush you can subdivide the mesh if you need more detail, create a normal map, or export the mesh, bring  it back as a subtool project details to lower poly mesh. That's really how you do it. You don't need HD to do your work. Besides, if you do HD morphs you have to learn Projection morphs as well so you don't have pokethrough, for end users you'll probably be better off with Normal maps any away.

Before HD came out I made alot of characters with alot of detail using displacement maps.

I still use displacement maps to ad specific kinds of details.

Not having any specific tool should not be a reason to limit ones creativity.

And again I call BS.

Sorry.

Maps won't show in OpenGL. HD morphs do.

That is a BIG advantage in my book.

Creating precision JCMs with maps is trial and error.

Not if you can actually "see" the morphs while rigging.

Nope, if there weren't massive advantages over "old" tech, DAZ wouldn't have put that much money and time into their delopment.

SM was basically asleep behind the wheel for the last decade, but DAZ going all out "professional" will shut out a lot of hobbyists who are just in it for the fun.
Exactly.  Expect DAZ to get more "complex" and less user-friendly (also known as "locked" by Linux/Ubuntu/MAX/Blender users)  Expect freebies (including PC+ freebies) to be either static (we already have a bunch of those, but I'm talking about just stagnant freebies) or for them to grind down to 1 freebie per month, just like the industry standard.

Someone may only want to buy a single model for an indie license, rather than a license for everything on the site.  So out with the low hobbyist prices, in with the "prohibitively expensive because it comes with a dev license just like TurboSquid and CGTrader models" prices.  Finally, expect the industry standard of woefully unfriendly search and dropdown category features just like you see on TurboSquid, CGTrader, etc. (no, I mean even WORSE than what Daz has now-- FAR worse)  Welcome to the industry standard, everybody!

Freebies, static? I downloaded so many freebies from DAZ 3D in the past three months to have lost count. I don't think I'll ever use most of that stuff, but I still grabbed it. How is that static? And about "industry standard" prices? I have purchased a ton of stuff at between 60% to 80% off, and this includes Genesis 2 stuff, and I am not even in their PC membership program.

I got a boat load of Zev0's stuff, for example, for very cool sales prices.

I am going to have to check with a scientist and make sure I am not living some of the time in a different dimension than some of you, or perhaps it is some of you who are shifting thru time? LOL!

And again I call BS.

Sorry.

Maps won't show in OpenGL. HD morphs do.

That is a BIG advantage in my book.

Creating precision JCMs with maps is trial and error.

Not if you can actually "see" the morphs while rigging.

Nope, if there weren't massive advantages over "old" tech, DAZ wouldn't have put that much money and time into their delopment.

Project high details to lower poly mesh, create your jcms there. Professional Artists that have to do this for a living isn't clamoring for an HD tool as it's not available; neither should you.

Lots of drama about nothing..  Poser conversions are coming already with partial success.

http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/58208/#845962

A deeply invested community tends to be self regulating..  Things have worked out for most platforms so far. Give a little time. :)

The Gen 3 figures had enough polys to create detailed, life like sculpts without the need of any "super secret PA-only tools". Heck, I did my first sculpts by using hundreds of Poser magnets.

V4 had fewer polys, G1 even fewer, G2 a few more, and now we're back to fewer again.

So, how do I create DETAILED sculpts with such few polygons without the HD tool?

To an extent this is a discussion that was had when Genesis came out, before we had HD morphs. A partial answer is that in V3/M4 and V4/M4 you also didn't have SubD, so any smoothing had to be in the raw morph. With Genesis # the figure is SubD, so the smoothing that you had to sculpt can now be left to the application and you are able to make full use of the available resolution (which is, roughly, only one division down from the pre-Genesis meshes). For your own use, though I'm not aware of a way to share it, you can also adjust the edge weights with the Geometry Edit tool on a finished sculpt, though you can't link edge weights to a morph so that may not be of any practical use.

"Professional Artists that have to do this for a living isn't clamoring for an HD tool as it's not available; neither should you."

I'm not a professional nor do i want to be one, so I can clamor for anything I want. Thank you very much.

Yes, this discussion has been had, but back in the G1 days I still believed/hoped that keeping the HD tool "exclusive" was just a short term marketing ploy during the introduction phase of Genesis.

I still stick to my opinion I had back then: Given that Poser and Studio aren't polygon sensitive for quite some time now, there is no inherent value in submitting oneself to the "industry standard" low res mesh + SubD paradigma.

High res meshes like V3 can be weightmapped just as successfully as low res meshes. Just takes a little longer.

But they are much easier to sculpt for the hobbyist who doesn't have all those "professional tools" at his disposal.

Again, it might take a little longer, but who cares? There is no client breathing down the hobbyist artist's neck, wanting things completed yesterday.

And if you need a low res background mesh, just supply a seperate figure.

The V3/V3RR and M3/M3RR combo always worked flawlessly for me and many others.

Same with the V4/V4-17k combo where V4 was just a "frozen" copy of a sub1 V4 17k.

(Although I liked the purpose made V3RR better)

Anyway, SubD is just another "Industry standard" that the hobbyist community lived happily without for years without ever missing it.

On the contrary, the non-SubD meshes have advantages that are now thrown away just to lure "the industry" in.

If you take away BOTH our polygons as well as the tools to properly replace them, you will have to live with the fact that we don't use your product.

Again, for the vast majority, G3 will be the right product.  G2 sure was. So I don't see DAZ changing its course just for a few crazies like me.

I just wanted to point out that while the Empress doth hath clothes, she might miss a few pieces of underwear.

;-)

Doing a quick play with a morph... 

What a sad bunch of sniveling whiners you all are!

Believe it or not, DAZ doesn't owe you full backwards compatibility of all new products forever. You bitch because there's no new V4 killer on the horizon, then you bitch some more if a possible contender appears because it means you'll have to buy better stuff to go with a better figure. DAZ is apparently trying to raise the quality of 3D figures and of 3D figure artwork as a whole. Going by the quality of most promo images in their store these days, I would say they are succeeding. Poser's development has scarcely budged in decades, but you bitch that it's DAZ's fault that many of the best vendors appear to be jumping ship in their direction, and somehow this makes them the evil enemy because they are leaving you behind stuck in, what, 2005 with V4?

I think V7 looks amazing in those promo renders, she has the prettiest face I've ever seen on a stock figure and she seems to morph into quite believable expressions. I wish her a long and happy life, but if V8 improves on her one day, that's ok too. **************************************

THIS!   A thousand times THIS!

You want to stay in the past? 

Then stop whining that you're left behind by others who are not that easily pleased.

Well done, DAZ!  You ARE the men of vision!

"Hooray for the men of vision!

Who are never satisfied.

Who believe that the way to a better world,

Is to give it a better try!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7bixhF5Dfo

These kind of attitudes stifle conversation. Calling people whiners because they aren't happy about some "Great new direction" doesn't progress a conversation anywhere. There wouldn't BE any complaining if Genesis worked natively in Poser, Carrara, and wherever else V4 worked.

Have you ever wondered why so many people STILL buy stuff for V4 and the Gen4 characters?

It's because Genesis didn't and still doesn't work flawlessly in Poser or Carrara and earlier versions of DS.

Do I personally mind buying new items (wardrobe, hair, etc) for the new character? No.

I do mind not being able to buy it and have it work in my software.

Does Daz "owe" anyone backward compatibility? Maybe, maybe not.

Backwards compatibility is a smart move, owed or not. It makes a product available to many more people.

So, do I appreciate the "Men of Vision" and their effort to make a better figure, yes.

I DO very much like the promo images of V7 (and I like V6) too.

It would be nice if they had actually fixed the problems we had with Genesis 1&2 BEFORE releasing a Genesis 3.

I still stick to my opinion I had back then: Given that Poser and Studio aren't polygon sensitive for quite some time now, there is no inherent value in submitting oneself to the "industry standard" low res mesh + SubD paradigma.But they are much easier to sculpt for the hobbyist who doesn't have all those "professional tools" at his disposal. Anyway, SubD is just another "Industry standard" that the hobbyist community lived happily without for years without ever missing it.

On the contrary, the non-SubD meshes have advantages that are now thrown away just to lure "the industry" in.

If you take away BOTH our polygons as well as the tools to properly replace them, you will have to live with the fact that we don't use your product.

I just wanted to point out that while the Empress doth hath clothes, she might miss a few pieces of underwear.

1. Import the mesh into Blender.

2. add as Sub-D modifier (to simulate the situation of the smoothed mesh in Studio).

3. switch to to sculpt mode, make sure that dynamic topology is not active, sculpt to your heart content the coarse part of the morph. 4. remove the Sub-D modifier, export the mesh as morph target.

4. add a Multiresultion modifier.

5. go again to sculpt mode (now no problem if you have dynamic topology active), sculpt as many details as you want, going up in levels as much as required.

6. bake the normal map using the current settings of the Multiresolution modifier (difference between coarse and hires mesh).

7. enjoy your creation.

To me the Empress appears be fully and modestly clothed.

Actually Daz's plan is to provide industry standard at hobbiest prices.

And how long will that last? Memories...I remember when The Plan was for a single mesh, of medium resolution these days, that would used for everything. Male, female, creature, wouldn't matter. As long as it was humanoid, it was all you'd ever need. It was The Future! Heck, barely had to be humanoid with geografting! Sub-D would render high-res meshes utterly obsolete! It will be the industry standard!

Until The Plan was that they may have been a tad hasty about the whole Single Mesh to Rule Them All thing, and then the plan was separate male and female meshes again and maybe not so much with the creature thing any more either. But new system! The future of bending! Setting a new standard in posing! You'd never need anything else, unless, I suppose you did want the whole non-human things, but hey! It's The Plan! The Future! it will be the industry standard! For sure! This time!

Until The Plan wasn't actually that new bending system but dual quaternion. And with more powerful system, that whole medium/low-poly thing is looking kinda iffy. But, the Future! That's The Plan! Industry standard!

Based on prior experience, one wonders what exactly The Plan and "industry standard" will be a year or so from now.

Based on prior experience, one wonders what exactly The Plan and "industry standard" will be a year or so from now.

Well unless the wheels fall of the cart or there is a quantum leap there is no reason not to expect the "industry standard" to not remain what is in common use in the CG industry.... which is what makes it a standard not because someone adopts it. Well its pretty easy to explain the whole mesh split episode, Genesis one had a single mesh to support both male and female shapes while this was awesome for creating unisex type monsters and had a wealth of positive aspects. It wasn't as strong in the differences between male and female human anatomy especially in clothing creation aspects. There are a lot of other reasons than this that can be dug into but it's as simple as Genesis 1 was born it did have a lot of strengths and was very successful. But when planning Genesis 2 developers took on board feedback from users and content creators and decided the splitting figure again would solve some of the issues the unification had created.

Adaption is the key to long term success in anything. Those that fail to adapt or change are quickly left behind. Are you saying that they DAZ3D shouldn't adapt or innovate?

@Joe-

The solution is simple for you, spend a little time make a product submit to Daz, sign the necessary paperwork and you can access the HD tools with the same usage rights as any PA. Might take you a few days to get it sorted.

The reason why it's not free to everyone is simple, the tech took time and money to develop. If Daz3d decide to just give it away for free the competition vendors such as ones at Renderosity can just say thank you and start pumping out cheap content and DAZ3D will fail to recuperate their investment in developing the tech. It's a common approach in most industries R&D and development cost $$$. Remove return and then you have no $$$ for future R&D and development.

Also what is wrong with DAZ3D using the return they make from the PA's content, to invest in tools that give the same PA's a market advantage in making content? 

Based on prior experience, one wonders what exactly The Plan and "industry standard" will be a year or so from now.

Well unless the wheels fall of the cart or there is a quantum leap there is no reason not to expect the "industry standard" to not remain what is in common use in the CG industry.... which is what makes it a standard not because someone adopts it. Well its pretty easy to explain the whole mesh split episode, Genesis one had a single mesh to support both male and female shapes while this was awesome for creating unisex type monsters and had a wealth of positive aspects. It wasn't as strong in the differences between male and female human anatomy especially in clothing creation aspects. There are a lot of other reasons than this that can be dug into but it's as simple as Genesis 1 was born it did have a lot of strengths and was very successful. But when planning Genesis 2 developers took on board feedback from users and content creators and decided the splitting figure again would solve some of the issues the unification had created.

Adaption is the key to long term success in anything. Those that fail to adapt or change are quickly left behind. Are you saying that they DAZ3D shouldn't adapt or innovate?

@Joe-

The solution is simple for you, spend a little time make a product submit to Daz, sign the necessary paperwork and you can access the HD tools with the same usage rights as any PA. Might take you a few days to get it sorted.

The reason why it's not free to everyone is simple, the tech took time and money to develop. If Daz3d decide to just give it away for free the competition vendors such as ones at Renderosity can just say thank you and start pumping out cheap content and DAZ3D will fail to recuperate their investment in developing the tech. It's a common approach in most industries R&D and development cost $$$. Remove return and then you have no $$$ for future R&D and development.

Also what is wrong with DAZ3D using the return they make from the PA's content, to invest in tools that give the same PA's a market advantage in making content? 

Also considering that DAZ makes its money from content because they give away the software and base development tools free, you should consider the HD as their brand and internal tools. They don't have to give it away because people don't want to learn the traditional methods. They're not going to budge on it right now so if you need to put more detail in your models, you do it the old fashioned way. If you wish to sell models with HD, then by all mean contact DAZ.. but you don't to get to just play with it... no PA does.

Realtime display of surfaces and lighting has been a very expensive and relatively recent thing in 3D.

But with GPU assist in Iray, realtime display is achievable and 'sort of affordable' to the hobbyist.

...here is one of Mec4d's videos:

Realtime display of surfaces and lighting has been a very expensive and relatively recent thing in 3D.

But with GPU assist in Iray, realtime display is achievable and 'sort of affordable' to the hobbyist.

...here is one of Mec4d's videos:

This is a very impressive video, but you need to understand what is going on.  First of all, Cathy (Mec4d) has an impressive PC with two over-clocked Titan X  video cards. That is probably $2200 worth of video cards alone. This scene has only one 3D object in it, that is the SUV model. The street and buildings are an HDRI light and background

The non DAZ figures are no good, because they are poorly made.
Yes.  I didn't want to be that blunt, but that is a major problem.  I am not going to speculate on what degree that has affected Dawn/Roxie/Rex vs the former having separate Daz and Poser versions and the latter being Poser-exclusive.  From the promo shots I have seen (not that Content Paradise promos are the greatest example of what a figure can and can't do), Roxie and Rex have some serious bend issues, and someone mentioned that they use a single texture for all body parts, which explains why their skin looks so low res.
While SM deserves no sympathy or defense for dropping the ball in the last 3 years in general, I am pretty sure I recall one of their reasons in the now-defunct CP forums for placing all the blame on DAZ, is that they were uncomfortable with Tri-ax being proprietary.  I don't know enough about IP rights and law to do anything more than speculate on what that would mean.  However, if SM couldn't figure out how to translate Tri-ax into Poser completely from the ground-up, then they would be incredibly restricted on how and where they could sell the product (I'm guessing they could only sell it on DAZ3D, which means that it would have to be an add-on rather than built into Poser ver. X)
Though I think I just remembered that they complained that DAZ shouldn't have found some way to make Poser weight-mapping work natively in DAZ instead of coming up with Tri-ax.  I have no idea if Poser weight-mapping is proprietary or not, or if it is, what its rules are.  (I know that there is a free weight-mapped version of Antonia)

Why does KFC keep their recipe a secret?
Apples to oranges.  3rd party cooks don't create "add-ons" for KFC's chicken, LOL.

Freebies, static? I downloaded so many freebies from DAZ 3D in the past three months to have lost count. I don't think I'll ever use most of that stuff, but I still grabbed it. How is that static?
I think you misunderstood.  They come out with new freebies every week, in addition to some that have been free for years (static) such as Emotiguy, and static ones which have been free for 1 year, such as Dagger Dreams and V4/M4 Basicwear.  Something more recent, are "weekly freebies", which often times are more like bimonthly or monthly.
My fear is that they will accept the industry standard a la Turbosquid and CGTrader which is to only provide static freebies.

And about "industry standard" prices? I have purchased a ton of stuff at between 60% to 80% off, and this includes Genesis 2 stuff, and I am not even in their PC membership program.
Yes, FOR NOW.  But it's only a matter of time before DAZ makes an announcement saying "We have been vastly successful with the industry standard over x years, and it is more profitable.  That is why we plan to slowly phase out hobbyist standards and prices over the next year/2 years.  We will still provide PC+ membership benefits, but these, too, will change to the industry standard.  Instead of products in a permanent PC+ category, we plan to shuffle PC+ prices around for most DAZ originals.  We will have occasional special holiday and seasonal sales when certain items are on sale for PC prices, which will be anywhere from 40 to 75% off"  Along with a bunch of prose as to why this is somehow more awesome.

Well unless the wheels fall of the cart or there is a quantum leap there is no reason not to expect the "industry standard" to not remain what is in common use in the CG industry.... which is what makes it a standard not because someone adopts it.
How many times have I heard that about something or other, only for the speaker/company to pull a 180 a year or 3 down the line?  Fact: nobody, and I mean NOBODY-- keeps their promises.  FACT: DAZ's disclaimers, ToU, etc. are pretty lengthy and explicit about how they can change anything and everything at a whim.

The solution is simple for you, spend a little time make a product submit to Daz, sign the necessary paperwork and you can access the HD tools with the same usage rights as any PA. Might take you a few days to get it sorted.
Perhaps someone does not WANT to become a DAZ PA.  Certainly that appears to be the case for plenty of PAs on Renderosity.  Other PAs, such as DInoraul and Boundless, are former DAZ PAs who decided to up and leave.  Dinoraul still has a store both here and at Content Paradise (though I have no idea if the latter is voluntary, due to CP being partially broken)

"Professional Artists that have to do this for a living isn't clamoring for an HD tool as it's not available; neither should you."

I'm not a professional nor do i want to be one, so I can clamor for anything I want. Thank you very much.

---

Yes, this discussion has been had, but back in the G1 days I still believed/hoped that keeping the HD tool "exclusive" was just a short term marketing ploy during the introduction phase of Genesis.

I still stick to my opinion I had back then: Given that Poser and Studio aren't polygon sensitive for quite some time now, there is no inherent value in submitting oneself to the "industry standard" low res mesh + SubD paradigma.

HD wasn't introduced until part way into the Genesis 2 series. Note that the Genesis 1 Creature Creator Morphs do not use HD.  DS and Poser are definitely polygon sensitive, which is why many people render in layers for large scenes and why Instancing was such a key feature for DS.  

Apparently Genesis 3 doesn't work in DAZ Carrara, which I always considered a pro app...

http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewthread/58029/

Apparently Genesis 3 doesn't work in DAZ Carrara, which I always considered a pro app...

Carrara was a pro app, many many moons ago. Now e.g. Blender run rings around it, let along beast like MODO or 3DMax or Maya.