I'm really happy with Poser 5, it seems to work well for me....

I agree. I'm also very happy with Poser 5 - I'm redoing my lab right now. Hopefully I'll get it to look good with some P5 Materials thrown in - but for right now, I'm redoing the room. It was too flat - not enough detail or variation in the walls.

Glad to hear it, but think a minute. Are you happy that, after three years, the Poser 4 bugs are in Poser 5? Are you happy there's been no improvements to the animation as promised? Are you happy about the memory leaks that were supposed to be fixed? And the fact that P5 still retains all materials even after a figure is deleted? Are you happy you're being used as a beta tester? And had to pay for the privilege? Are you happy many of your friends got screwed because it doesn't work for them?

None of the above really affect me 0_o .

At least you can air your opinions. It seems censorship has reared its ugly head on this site. It seems if you say something bad about one of the main sponsors of this site, your message gets pulled. I have also noticed that there seems to be one fairly small group of people that literally goes out of there way to defend CL at all cost. Makes me wonder about their motives! Let me rebalance things out. I have felt up til now that by jumping in here and expressing my opinion that this little group would pounce on me. But as I read more and more posts about the displeasure with Poser 5, I realize that I am, by far, not alone. Jump done my throat if you like, ban my opinion if you like, but I'm standing up and being counted here. I've also noticed that when a good review comes along, that is almost always negative about Poser 5, "the group" interestingly enough, has nothing to say about it. For me so far Poser 5 has been a horrible experience. I hope it gets better. I have never in my life run such buggie software and I've used some pretty high end gear. And yes I continually email my problems to CL but so far to no avail. To would be Poser 5 buyers....Wait!!!!!(just my humble opinion)

Please tell me that jwkub hasn't been banned from this site. I noticed that his latest posting has just magically disappered. Can or will someone from renderosity please explain. Hello...moderators...chime in anytime here!

Look through the recent postings. How many have had good things to say about P5, how many have had bad things to say? Jackson, for example, has posted several unflattering remarks about P5 and his posts are still here. Several other people have posted bugs, concerns, etc. and their posts are still here. Hell, I've posted unflattering remarks and concerns about P5 and I'm a moderator. (I used some tact in my posts, but I try to do that on every post, not just ones about CL.) Repetive posts of jwkub showing literal shit have been yanked. The first several jwkub posted stayed, but he just kept posting the same thing over and over again until it got ridiculous. It wasn't the fact that he had problems with CL and P5, it was the repetitive pictures of dog crap, over and over again that got some posts pulled. I have no clue if jwkub has been given a time out or not. I haven't checked in within the last half hour. I came here to post a question/concern about P5 when I noticed this post and checked it out. Even if I did check his status, it's not my place to talk about that sort of thing. We don't talk about members that way. It's unprofessional. Is that chimey enough for you? Now retreating to ask questions on P5 again.

Funny thing is lapis, most of the reviews complain about one thing, animation, capabilites. It's kind of hard to care about that as much if you're not an animator. Many are not. By the same token, there are groups of people who "wonder at our motives" because we have a working stable program...what are you doing to try to fix the problem? Document errors, pay attention to your system and settings? Following directions? Sorry but just as many people aren't having problems, to that doesn't make this a broken or beta program.

You're a mod? Dig the sarcasm! There are many holes in your argument. Was it the repetitive nature or the crap? Others repeat messages without problems. Was it the crap? You just stated the first image stayed, so it couldn't have been the image then. Follow me here? So then what was it really? During your retreat, keep asking questions and just maybe by about the 10th or 11th patch you'll get some answers! A time out? Who is mother Renderosity anyway? Again until you actually get it....if it bothers you or anyone else, don't look at it!!

Lapis , thank you for your concerns , I am still here! Iam very displeased with the rushed nature that is the P5 release and the fired out the door lame sr1 wonder fix. in a word its... shovelware !! oohh well its only money (last dollars CL will ever get from me) I am VERY VERY displeased with the censorship of my visual statements. YES its SUPPOSED to ilicite a responce and even stir up emotoions good or bad. Art is not always pretty. (I thought better of this site , ah well live and learn) Happy rendering, Jeff

No I'm not a mod, but I've already been accused of being a mole for cl, among other things. I guess that's all I'll reply to since that's all that makes sense in that post. Jeff, just a question are you rendering those pics in P5? I know the box prop comes with it.

Scott...that one reminded me of the big piles in Jurrasic Park :)

LOL Scott! I haven't had any problems, only one crash, and it was due to my pc... so far, so good, knock on wood...

I'm doing fine. Some instability but there are workarounds. I am however, somewhat hesitent to go all out and push P5. As for the patch, I have it but haven't installed. Don't want 100 hours of rebuild time so I'll wait.

So far, other than the UI problems..the patch has been ok...other than the exception errors I'm now getting. It appears the dead windows, and so forth have gone away.

Yes, even the mods get sarcastic after a while. I have, however, remained polite to the people while using sarcasm about the situation. The images got to the point of being spam, not opinions, not debate, not anything useful. Again, if you think it's because we have to all bow down and worship Curious Labs and Poser, then you haven't been reading the threads here, let alone my own posts in other threads. I'm not offended by the images. I laughed at the first one. By the tenth of the same exact nature, it was a whole different story. JeffH made the decision that the point was made (many times over) and the continual posts were beating a dead horse. There have been a few threads locked for that same reason over the years (not many, but a few), so this is not some new, nefarious scheme. (Before I'm accused of shifting blame, I'll let you know that I agree with his actions.) If you want to scream censorship, fine. Just look at how many posts are actually locked, let alone deleted on this site then please inform me exactly how we stiffle everyone who doesn't toe the party line. I will repeat myself (fitting since that is the entire point of removing some of the images): the deleted posts were not removed due to unfavorable comments against CL, P5, or anything else. The later ones were removed because they had become spam. And as to the question, "Who is mother Renderosity?" It is a privately owned web site that pays for the hosting and bandwidth used. As a privately owned web site, it can make the decisions as to who can and can not post, and what posts are allowed. Considering the fact that it even permits posts that speak negatively about the site, the owners, and the company that pays for the site (yes, from profits made by the Marketplace from member purchases), I don't think the charges of horrendous censorship are in order. If you want to know who I am, I'm a volunteer mod who has been a member here for over 3 years but only recently has joined the ranks of moderator.

ScottA - Your dino looks far too happy thinking sh*tty thoughts like that! ;-) The patch seems to be okay on my system so far. I'm gingerly testing it out - one thing at a time. I had a lot of issues with P5 OOB, so I was near to saying, "It couldn't be worse." (I didn't actually say that because that's the best way to blow up a computer, but I was close ....)

Crescent, so now it was spam was it. Is this your story now. Tell me what your definition of spam is...I'm curious. I haven't seen where there has been a personal attack by the artist on anyone in this forum. Yet he has been cruelly attacked by members in this forum. I call that a double standard. Why haven't there comments been pulled!(they should't be by the way) You have said a mouthful when you said... 'And as to the question, "Who is mother Renderosity?" It is a privately owned web site that pays for the hosting and bandwidth used. As a privately owned web site, it can make the decisions as to who can and can not post, and what posts are allowed. Considering the fact that it even permits posts that speak negatively about the site, the owners, and the company that pays for the site", beacause I believe that's the real motivation behind silencing this man. In politics this is known as spin doctoring. In PR its known as damage control. Tirjasdyn, animation capabilities! Are we reading the same threads. Please don't make me do a cut and paste here.

Ummm... in Crescent's defense, I think Cres used the term "spam" advisedly, and in the general sense used by mods at this site for a number of years. Heya - I thought the P5 box covered in dung was hilarious the 1st time, funny the second... Multiple repetitions of essentially the same post, as well as reposting the same post, and/or crossposting it to multiple forums has always been one of the defintions of that here. [Which jwkub didsn't do as I saw - crosspost to multile forums that is] So, Crescent used the word in the context most mods here would. Now, jwkub getting flamed by other members for his posts is a different thing - I didn't happen to see Crescent doing any of that, correct me if I'm wrong. Now... Letting someone get flamed for posting an unpopular opinion by other members might be something ya'll have a legit beef with the PTB over. Heya - email the boss and express displeasure. That's always worked for me. They love those emails... don't let them try to kid yas otherwise. ;] <-------- Ex-mod who's been as hard as anyone else on CL over this P5 release fiasco, a lot of it in this forum as well as elsewhere.

reporting bugs is one thing & being polite while doing it should be a requirement, but when you don't report bugs & just use the forum to say over & over at least 10 times that poser5 sucks using pictures created with "poser5?" that makes it spam & the mods should delete each thread that starts like that. I don't want the crap pictures in the forum & saying I can avoid them is wrong, it seems like every other post recently has been those stupid little attempts at humour. Now a personal message to jwkub, please lay off with the crap pictures, post pics of the dragon instead if you must post at all.

Jackson - Are you happy that, after three years, the Poser 4 bugs are in Poser 5?

Happy about it? Nah, not so much... but then again non of them effect me that I know of so I am not very unhappy about it either. Call me ambivalent.

Jackson - Are you happy there's been no improvements to the animation as promised?

Don't know, I don't animate in Poser. When we have to do animations we wind up using much larger packages.

Jackson - Are you happy about the memory leaks that were supposed to be fixed? And the fact that P5 still retains all materials even after a figure is deleted?

Again, I don't notice the memory leaks - and I leave Poser 5 running for DAYS at a time. As for the figures - so? They get paged out and it doesn't effect me either.

Jackson - Are you happy you're being used as a beta tester? And had to pay for the privilege?

Poser5 is, for me, stable and fast - with features that are already improving how I can deliver to my clients as well as opening up new business paths. I have already made back more that the retail price on Poser 5... so the money is sure not an issue.

Jackson - Are you happy many of your friends got screwed because it doesn't work for them?

It is unfortunate others are having a problem, and I try and help when I can... but I am certainly not going to stop using a product that has seriously enhanced my work process out of sympathy.

Sigh Apparently the concept of "community" gets lost when it comes to Poser 5. People are missing the point big time. "...it doesn't effect me..." "I don't have that problem." "I don't do animation." "It's stable for me." I, I, I, me, me, me. Of all the posts citing problems, very few members have said, "I'm sorry you're having trouble, but..." Most just say, "Well I don't have that problem." Everyone's micro-managing this issue (I know, bad choice of words, but I just got up). Try to look at the big picture: We, as a "community" were screwed; we were lied to and used by CL. They used us to get money fast and they are using us as beta testers. Soulhuntre and other happy users, you are the lucky ones, but don't you realize you could just as easily been the unlucky ones? After all these threads about probelms, you must realize that CL just threw this program out and let the chips fall where they may; they got their money. So much for "caring" about their customers. And if the issues in my post about the protection scheme are true, that's proof positive CL could give a rat's ass about you or us. I love Poser too, I sincerely want it to succeed and grow. But how can it when CL does things like this? Do you think all this is good publicity for Poser? No wonder people in the professional 3d world consider Poser a toy. Now they probably consider it a joke. "I would be really surprise if as a general case sofwtare stability was enhanced by some 16 year old Jolt cola fiend mucking about in it with his stolen copy of "Soft Ice" ripping out chunks of code he only barely understands. Does that sound like something that would HELP to you?" What you say makes sense but, if the protection is causing the trouble, it would also make sense that a crack that takes you around it could help. That's why I asked some of those questions.

you know what, it works for me & that's all I care about right now.

It's the whole problem in this country now...no one cares about anybody else as long as they get and got what they want...its a very sorry state of affairs.... Greedy, selfish people...it extends way beyond Poser 5, but is demonstrated here and other forums over and over. Sorry for politics , but my wife hit a great point this morning while watching the discussion of going to war with Iraq this morning: "Why doesn't our government work as hard finding peace and helping people as it does in trying to figure out how we can go to war against Iraq"...nuff said

"I, I, I, me, me, me. Of all the posts citing problems, very few members have said, "I'm sorry you're having trouble, but..." Most just say, "Well I don't have that problem."

"It's the whole problem in this country now...no one cares about anybody else as long as they get and got what they want...its a very sorry state of affairs...."

You have to consider the nature of the discussions here. If 10 people have said what I might have said, I don't say it. Why add the same sentance over and over?
And if someone is not having the same problems with P5 as someone else, their silence doesn't mean they don't care about them. I read all the problem threads even though I've only had one problem with the firefly render. Not saying anything publicly in a thread doesn't mean I, personally, am a selfish, self-centered person.
Give people some credit and the benefit of the doubt.

The suggestion is that we should all suffer with anyone who is having problems... why can't you extend the same courtesy to Saxon, who isn't having problems, and be happy for them?

Hey, no one is saying the gripes aren't legit. What people are saying is that P5 is working for some people, so saying that it doesn't work at all for anybody is not correct. There's been a lot of posts where people have tried to offer solutions and work arounds to problems, or asked if others have noticed similar issues so a compresensive and coherent report could be sent to CL so the issue could get fixed sooner. I think that's very representative of this community. And the U.S. gov doesn't want peace, it wants to show that Bush Jr. is even better than his Daddy because he'll finish the job. (I voted None of the Above in the last elections aka Nader.)

Kendra, please don't think I consider people selfish, etc. simply because they don't respond to a problem. That wasn't my meaning at all. Nor do I feel everyone should suffer, that'd be crazy. I've responded to a number of posts with positive remarks and glad feelings that P5 worked well for them. All I was trying to do here is point out how we have all been used and taken advantage of. And I simply can't understand how anyone could be happy about that. So am I posting this because I want to bring people down? No. I'm posting because I want CL to know we're not fools or suckers...that we know what they did (and are continuing to do with that buggy, problem-causing protection scheme). Cresent, you state above: "There's been a lot of posts where people have tried to offer solutions and work arounds to problems, or asked if others have noticed similar issues so a compresensive and coherent report could be sent to CL so the issue could get fixed sooner. I think that's very representative of this community." I have done the same as often as possible. Even with my limited experience I think I've helped a few. I also worked closely with Brian from CL on the XML bug that was causing people to reinstall. Together, with one other guy (can't remember his name), we found the cause and the solution in a couple of hours. That does give me a feeling of community, just like the feeling I have in my own town. If someone dumped a huge load of trash in the middle of my street, I'd be pissed. Even if it wasn't in front of my house and even if I could drive around it effortlessly, I'd still be pissed. And if Poser 5 worked flawlessly for me, I'd still be pissed that CL did this to my community.

Well spoken Jackson my man! I also believe if you look to the square root of the problem it is and always has been CL. Yet somehow, interestingly enough, in some people's minds they are always portrayed as saints. This faulty a product, I believe, is totally unacceptable. I also believe that eventually the wheel will come around and if CL doesn't look after the market place, the market place will take care of them. But in the meantime some of us are left with a real mess to sort out. We will keep trying to sort it out even though we shouldn't have to. Jackson, here's a question for you. Would you have bought P5 knowing what you know now?

Lapis...my 5 cents, (inflation, you know).... There is no way in hell I would buy Poser 5....maybe after the bugs and kinks are worked out, but even then I think I would be very hesitant...mainly because of the way it was released.... By the way, I voted for Nader myself in the last election. "The death of democracy is not likely to be an assassination from ambush. It will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference, and undernourishment." Robert Maynard Hutchins

I'm Canadian, but if I lived south of the border Nader would have had my vote too! And actually my 5 cents is worth less than 3 on your soil. Yowch! I'm kicking myself over this purchase. Live and learn. But after dozens of software purchases, I've never been stung this bad before. Your wise to keep your money for now.

Good heavens this thread ran on didn't it! Sorry not to have come back to reply to postings. Yes, I do feel for my friends who feel they've been ripped off, but at the time the red mist was descending. When P5 was first released Americans had the first try, we Europeans had to wait on the sidelines hoping for some tid-bits to drop our way. Remember that time, it wasn't all that long ago. The impression I got was that the program just didn't work and it does! It's been said that there's nothing for animators well, I've just spent most of today playing with the cloth room, I've successfully converted old P4 stuff into useable clothes in P5, made several useful animations that involve many interactions that would have taken days to do in P4, made and styled hair, perfected reflections, and so on... What surprised and disappointed me was the American reaction, one of the most memorable was a virtual illiterate criticising Anthony's manual. Up until now we've always given the benefit of the doubt for appalling English to those who we thought were not English speakers. So, the standards of education aren't all that high over there then? Some of the criticism has been constructive but the majority, and it's been mostly Americans, the majority has been vitriolic, destructive, downright cruel and incredibly badly spelt. If you guys, living as you do in the wealthiest country on the planet can go to those sort of lengths over a few quid and a piece of software no wonder you have guns and state execution. I've been labouring over the misconception that America positively revelled in free enterprise and that small business can thrive in an environment conducive to it. Seems I'm wrong, seems the American dream is, well let's be kind and just say it's gone back to sleep....

Jackson - "Try to look at the big picture: We, as a "community" were screwed; we were lied to and used by CL."

I simply don't see it that way. Poser5 was a substantial increase in our abilities. Some bugs were shipped in the release version because there wasn't time to fix them... and some bugs slipped through due to various issues (including mistakes on CL's part).

I am not sure what happened to "the community" because I am not sure what "the community" is. I know us as a collection of individuals - and a whole bunch of us have been using the software with much happiness. So "the community" wasn't screwed... "the community" has a legitimate complaint... one that CL has been busting ass to remedy.

I don't see that as being used either.

***Jackson - "*They used us to get money fast and they are using us as beta testers."

Actually they HAD beta testers, and I have a strong belief that none of the problems that are "show stoppers" showed up in that testing. By CL's own communications with us here we know that several bugs slipped in during the manufacturing process, long after testing ended.

I am not insulted by this, nor an I freaking out because I ship software for a living and I KNOW that on release day there is always a list of bugs that are simply not critical enough to prevent release. That's just the real world. The critical things in Poser 5 worked for the vast majority of users, and the bugs that lipped through have been addressed by the patch in large part.

• Is it perfect? Nope.
• Could it have happened better? Yup.
• Was I misled? No.
• Was I "used"? Nope.
• Do I feel like the release was intended to use people as beta testers? Nope.

Jackson -  Soulhuntre and other happy users, you are the lucky ones, but don't you realize you could just as easily been the unlucky ones?

I don't think I am "lucky" - I think far, far more people are using P5 without serious problem than are represented here on this website. I think those with problems are very vocal - maybe with good reason - and the perceptions are skewed.

But let's say I had a system with stability issues - I have P4 available to me and I know CL would have a patch available. I would have gone about my life using P4 and working with their tech support to get it running. My production path would still have been running and I would have been upset but not freaking out.

Jackson -  After all these threads about probelms, you must realize that CL just threw this program out and let the chips fall where they may; they got their money.

No, I don't. I see a problem with some compatibility problems on some systems and I see a program that shipped with some bugs that were mostly addressed by a patch that among other things doubled it's speed. hardly the act of a company that doesn't "care" or just "threw it out there".

There is a reason MS tests on 10's of thousands of systems - and CL doesn't have the resources for that.

Jackson -  So much for "caring" about their customers. And if the issues in my post about the protection scheme are true, that's proof positive CL could give a rat's ass about you or us."

The protection thing is working just fine for me.

If someone computer is having a problem I am happy to try and help... but if they say that "it doesn't work" it is completely legitimate for me to say "yes, it does... it works fine for me".

And yeah, I said >me<. That isn't a bad word ya know. I am not really sure what exactly I am supposed to be doing "for the community".

• Am I supposed to not use a program that works fine for me?
• Am I supposed to turn down the extra productivity?
• The extra features?
• The extra money I can earn with this thing?

What, exactly, am I supposed to do to demonstrate my caring for "the community" on this topic? "The community" can expect me to give up Poser5 in a show of solidarity when the community pays my rent. Until then I am going to keep using the best tool for the job.

I sympathize, I help and I contribute. All well and good - but if you expect me to  join in a lynching for something that seems to be working well for the vast majority of users from a company that seems to be working hard to get the other issues fixed as a "community" activity then you can count me out.

Lapis, thanks. And, no, there's no way I'd buy P5 now...or anything else from CL. Dave-so, nice quote. Probably very true. Soulhunter, "...some bugs...due to various issues..." Heh, "issues," the exact word CL always uses. I believe all of their patches back to at least P4 addressed "various issues." I understand you can't see it and that's fine, a lot of people can't. I'm glad it's working well for you.

Saxon, the "American reaction" was from a handful of people.
How you went from "seems to work well for me.... " to "the standards of education aren't all that high over there then?" is beyond me.

I'll think twice before defending you next time.

Kendra, I have to admit to a little 'tongue in cheek' there. However, initially the entire criticism was coming from just your country and it wasn't pretty. Maybe my impression was wrong and that it was just a handful but, what a vociferous lot they were. If I'm in the wrong about something then I would expect to be left to my fate but, if I'm in the right then I would still expect, and appreciate your support....

I realize that it may be fashionable to bash America these days, but frankly, I've seen too much of it here, it really has no place here and I'm getting tired of it. People who feel the need to vent/complain are ALWAYS more vocal about it than those with praise and since P5 was released in the US first, Of Course the complaints were coming from the only people who had it. It's a simple logic problem, not some new platform to bash Americans from... I've seen plenty of vitrol and venting from Europeans since they were able to buy it - so let's stop the stereotyping, eh? And as for the crack about gun ownership - If you're truly interested in the facts, go look up the statistics on crime-rate and violent crime in countries that institute gun control and remove guns from it's law-abiding citizens (hint: Britain, Australia and others). You can have my guns when you pry them from my cold, dead hands. - Keith Proud to be an American and card-carrying member of the NRA.

People are people no matter what country they may reside in. I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate it if I insinuated that all Europeans are rude and crass and completely lacking in class based on a handfull of people, would you? Well you're in luck because I see the person and not the country.

"If I'm in the wrong.."

You are wrong. To bash a country, stereotype people and rudely suggest that the education system isn't 'up to par' is wrong. That you can't see it over your ego isn't my problem.

And like Keith, you can pry my gun from my cold dead hands as well. Is it because I'm some un-educated lunatic? No, it's because where I live, a call to emergency services wouldn't result in anyone arriving at my door for at least 30 minutes. A bear once wandered into an area of my business that could have seriously endangered my kids. And don't try to tell me America has more crime than anywhere else. I could bring up the stories of the children who couldn't attend their school in Ireland because adults would throw rocks at them based on their religion... and that's just one that comes to mind. Like I said, people are going to act like people no matter where they live.

Let's get back to the facts. Poser 5 was released in America first. For a month the rest of the Poser world scrutinised every single posting, a considerable number of these postings were not only vitriolic but illiterate. We are all guilty of tyhe odd typo, the odd grammatical error, occasional outbursts even but for one month we were able, with precision, to identify where the posts where coming from. Maybe that's revealed an unpleasant truth. With hindsight perhaps my final paragraph could have been a little more subtle. It was intended to demonstrate the effect that the plethora of insults being hurled about was having on people's perception of your country. As to your guns, I really don't want them, so you can keep them in your cold dead hands especially on Mondays....

You've definitely lost my support. Your ego and lack of class is astounding. Do you honestly expect to be able to insult a group of people, lump them all into a category that exists in your little head and not be brought to task for it?

We are all guilty of tyhe odd typo..."

Thank you for proving my point. You go right ahead and keep your very large head burried in the sand. You aren't doing yourself (or anyone you seem to be claiming to represent) any favors by criticizing "vitriolic" posts by posting a "vitriolic" one. (while you have your dictionary open, look up "hypocrite")
Was the concept of mutual respect for others taught in your education system? You seemed to have skipped that day.

The concept of intelligent debate about matters that may be controversial was taught in my educational system, so was the concept of ego-centrism. We also learnt that once a debate had sunk to the level of personal insults then useful discussion was at an end. I consider this discussion to serve no further useful purpose.

wow..this thred has bekome kwite a demonstaytion ov the intolerancez that seeems to still bee manifest in hour societee. I believe the saying, "don't throw stones if you live in a glass house" is appropriate here. We all have quirks which are really only percieved as such out of pride and ego. Our individual perceptions of reality are fashioned out of are own unique experiences. Without tolerance(which is really an extension of love), we are truly alone. Without judgement we thrive. We all have bad days; we all make mistakes. Lets pick each other up and move forward. You can actually "feel" the difference when you let tolerance or love flow through you. Ghandi knew it. Mother Teresa knew it. We all knew it at some point but many of us have forgotten. Its a soul thing; it is a heart thing. If you don't yet grasp this its okay, the lesson will just repeat!

"We also learnt that once a debate had sunk to the level of personal insults then useful discussion was at an end."

Which means the disucssion was at an end by post 33.

The lesson repeats....

Kendra do you have p5 and if so is there a simple way to move file around within the program? Saxon can you help with this one?

Do you mean, to link to another runtime folder? Or the ability of Poser to be able to utilise conforming clothing as dynamic...

Actually what is happening is this. I don't have p4. It seems as I install clothes, mats,etc, by unzipping into runtime or downloads into p5, the "items" or files end up all over the place. I wondered if there was a way to sort them out with in the programm or do I need to sort them out on the "back side". Thanks for responding.

Lapis, sadly, that's the way Poser works. Saxon, I don't know that the posts were all that bad. I certainly don't remember a "plethora of insults being hurled about." I mean, some people got mad here and there, but that's normal when people argue, isn't it? From Jackson, who doesn't own a gun but has a big dog. (Loud noises scare me).

Seriously! Do any of the software programmers/designers use the program from a user/artist standpoint? It seems strange that a basic file sorting issue like this wouldn't be dealt with. I just want to use the program, not spend all my time having to sort files.

If you trawl through the utilities section of the Poser freebies you'll find PInstall by MarkDC...

As with P4 you have to sort them out after unzipping the files. This has less do with poser than third partys not perserving the directory structure when they zip up. pdo explorer in free stuff can help with this as well. Kagato posted a thread on this recently.