I do not wish to bash CL (they are not alone), but I can not find "the answer". The beta test team supplied us with great imagery before the release. I saw fantastic hair and spectaculr dynamic effects. The face-room tantalized and at one level I was sold. In fact is, it's only because CL doesn't deal with AmEx that I am not a part of the "frustration club". It gave me time to return to reality. I have been watching the forums for many years and at each release simular "rant" posts occur. The difference is that this time I'm waiting to see how it all pans out. I have used Poser as a tool since its Fractal days and find it very useful. I remember the "c-exeption" error from... was it P3 or 4? I've dealt with Posers development, but I simply no longer have the time to install/uninstall/reinstall/patch/fail/uninstall/reinstall... I have work to do and CL doesn't provide me with a paycheck. What I don't understand, and I hope someone can explain, is why any business would expect its users to pay for software and beta test it. Are we generally a creative community or are we technical troubleshooters? It is true that with today's tools we all have to be a bit of both, but it looks like the scales are a tad off-balance. If I buy a table saw and it doesn't work, I'll return it. I won't take the time to tear it down, call the maufacturer, and put it back together before I use it. The software business is a different model, but I can think of no viable excuse for releasing software that is as "buggy" as P5 seems to be. I will invest in P5 when it becomes a stable package and I hope that CL is still around for another revision a few years from now. Until that time Vicki, Mike and I will sit in the P4 bleachers and let the rest of you figure it out. Hopefully watching and waiting, Visque

My p5 is working well from day one,the sr1 did some improvements nothing else, and the sr2 will iron out some minor bugs. there are some things that cause trouble( lightsets,props) that were working in p4 Only thing i miss is a more detailed manual.Sometimes it takes time to get all the new features working.

"What I don't understand, and I hope someone can explain, is why any business would expect its users to pay for software and beta test it." why? because it works! because it saves money and time for real beta testing and gives an impression as if the company cares about it users. but this time it's gone too far. it must be the buggyest software release ever. i've been using poser since release 3 and spent literally thousands of bucks on it and various content, so the price for an update didn't hurt me that much - relatively speaking. it was more the attitude of cl that annoys me. i'd gladly have waited for another 6 months, and payed according price, for what everyone expects an new version to be: faster, better and more stable. it's none of it. funny thing is, that this six-months-mark will be here none-the-less when p5 runs as expected after sr7 or sr8... to me it seems that the marketing stuff at cl (or egisys) got confused. they didn't know where to place the product: at hobby market (ridiculous mickey-mouse-interface - trying to imitate analogue tools) or professional markt (relatively powerful, though unfinnished materials and render settings, something studio max had years ago). yet they missed to implement modern hybrid-scanline renderer, not to speak about global illumination, plug-ins for hosting poser files in other applications or plug-in system with free sdk.

I just don't have the patience to deal with the problems that are occurring with P5. I have a friend who bought it and she hasn't been able to get one render from it so far. Just last night I read a thread in which someone pointed out that the highest resolution in Firefly was far inferior to the P4 render setting and proved it with example renders. I've seen far too many thread complaining with only a tiny handful of satisfied customers coming in to those complaint threads to argue in favor of the program. I remember when P4 first came out. There were complaints about it. No one could figure out the magnets, get the spotlight to work right, understand transparency, etc. But I've never seen complaints and gripes as strongly worded about any version of Poser as I have with this new release. It only makes me glad I haven't bought it yet. thgeisel, I think you're one of the few lucky ones who has had no problems, but most of my life has been governed by Murphy's Law: If anything can go wrong, it will. I know that I would be joining that "frustration club" with the rest of them. I find it sad that a company can do itself so much harm by producing such an inferior product. Granted, MetaCreations had lousy customer service, but at least their products worked for the most part. It's unfortunate, they gave this up. I'll be there in the P4 bleachers with Visque and the others until CL does something about this fiasco. In some ways, I feel badly for CL as well, because of what they've done to themselves. Just imagine how many more sales they would have made if they had put more thought into what they were doing. Melanie

Maybe more don't come out in favor because we get attacked when we do. What was proved in that thread about the renders was that there is a bug in the way firefly handles textures that aren't an even power of two, ie 256x256, 512x512, 1024x1024, etc. That should be fixed in the next patch due in about a week. There certainly could be more than a few that have no problems. We just aren't as vocal as those that do.

well, if whoever started that thread wasn't as vocal as he was, the solution to the bug would still be unknown.

Maybe more don't come out in favor because we get attacked when we do. >> Yep, I'm even hesitant to offer help afraid I will get yelled at. Shouldn't be like that, reiss-studio just proved the correct attitude, the community exists to help each other and the best thing is Curious Labs is an extremely active and dilligent part of it. Nothing comes from being overly pesimistic and yell at each other. If we keep working together we will end up with a hell of a stable amazing package. If Maya & 3D Studio which cost more than ten times as much as Poser have had similar troubles with their new releases why do we have to be so negative about Creative Labs which is a much smaller company. I have heard jokes about Hash, the creators of Animation Master not being able to run their upcoming releases in demo shows and when they finally release their software is extremely buggy, still I think they have a wonderful accesible tool that I'm glad is available to artists. We have to put things into perspective, you would need to have the resources of Adobe or Microsoft in order to have something that stable. Not only that but of all the types of software 3D software is the most demanding in hardware and resources and the one most prone to have problems once released into the real world.

you would need to have the resources of Adobe or Microsoft in order to have something that stable Sorry, that's utter rubbish. Winzip. Paint Shop Pro. Rhinoceros (McNeel) and a multitude of other programs from small production houses that are perfectly stable and almost completely error free. As for people who have no problem getting shouted at. When you look at the number of threads where someone has a problem with poser 5 and some smart alek posts "I don't have any problems at all" with NO helpful suggestions I have to wonder WHY they bothered posting. The person starting complaint threads wants a solution to the problem NOT some prat telling them they're obviously an idiot with a crap computer. Which "works fine for me, no problems here" indicates. Sorry for the rant but it's getting a bit bloody annoying. Reiss might have sounded like a CL apologist with some of his comments but at least with his input a solution to the texture problem was found. But posts stating "I don't have any problems" are NOT constructive, NOT helpful, NOT finding a solution WHY there's no problem and basically rather insulting. Fine. So Poser 5 works like a dream. Skating along at lightspeed without a single glitch. So rather than gloating - as some seem to be doing - how's about exploring WHY? Maybe there'd be less shouting if that was done. Oh well... perhaps the example set by Reiss will catch on and we'll see more help and less gloat.

This stuff about being "attacked" has been gone over before. The people posting problems were labeled "complainers" and "whiners." They were also called inexperienced and lazy. So, I'm sure there are many who aren't posting their problems for fear of being attacked as well. I don't mind being attacked ... not so much that I won't speak my mind, anyway. I love Poser but hate what CL did to it and how CL treated us. People should speak their minds here. I'd just stay away from blanket statements that people find offensive and stating an opinion as a fact. An example of both would be, "85% of all P5 'bugs' are caused by inexperienced users."

I had lots of fairly friendly goes at CL in this forum, because I pre-ordered yet must have been one of the last to get my copy, considering the date of my pre-order. Now having got it, I am having problems. OK... now I say it was my fault for wanting to be in the forefront of things. I wanted P5, and I got it, before it has really been tested out. I didn't get P4 until it was a CL issue at 4.03. maybe my system isn't up to it, maybe we all pushed CL to issue before they really wanted to, lots of maybe's. And I still have P4 on my system, so I can still play, and carry on experimentating until I get P5 sorted. I waited a long time to get it, and I can now wait to get it sorted. I won't even bother to download the first patch, partly because I am on a really iffy dialup, partly because now I am prepared to wait until CL get to the stage that they would rather have been at before even releasing P5. People pushed, now look what has happened.

Simonwm, Are you saying that we should set are expectations low and be happy for what ever might exceed those expectations? I've been through the Autodesk/Kinetix/deiscreet bugs with 3D Studio DOS all the way to Max and have lived with the facts of hardware and software incompatibilities. I've "shelved" software that never operated as advertised. I had a pre-poser package called "Humanoid"(not even worth further comment). Perhaps it's me, but I expect to be able to use my time learning the tools and integrating them into creative efforts... not fixing problems. Perhaps it's the industry as a whole that's the problem. Maybe it's we consumers who have enabled the industry. It seems as if companies find dealing with "damage control" easier than comprehensive pre-release testing (not a good long-term strategy). I don't have the answer, but it seems to me that the release of P5 might have been a bit premature. As I have said; I will invest in P5 when the number of problems diminsish and I thank all of those who are taking their time to debug. If not for the members of this and other forums CL might sell more initially, but their outlook would be dire. My expectations are high and I expect them to be reasonably met. Visque

I agree. We should work together to find answers to the problems that exist. I also think that one of the reasons that someone might post a "well mine works well" comment is to at least show it isn't universal. That doesn't necessarily help the problem at hand though. It also doesn't mean the intention is to gloat. Maybe it is an opening to discuss the differences of configurations that may eventually give a better understanding of the problem so that it can be fixed. In my dream world, nobody would have problems with Poser 5. The fact is, some do. People on both sides have gone 'over-the-edge' at times. There was a series of posts that said that P5 was crap. However I don't remember that poster actually asking for help in resolving any issues. It is nice to see the rare objective thread concerning the problems rather than editorializing it, or taking it as another opportunity to make a pot shot. Hopefully we'll get there soon.

Winzip. Paint Shop Pro. Rhinoceros (McNeel) and a multitude of other programs from small production houses that are perfectly stable and almost completely error free.>> Questor Paint Shop Pro and Winzip are not 3D application, they are much simpler pieces of software and Rhino had an extensive public beta period, perhaps a good idea for Poser 5 but I don't think Curiouslabs financial situation would have allowed them to go in that direction. It would be fantastic if every company could do it like McNeil did with Rhino. Visque, I would never dare to post about software I have never own and experienced by myself but that's just me. I also bought Humanoid and at the time it was a wonderful application, nothing could stand besides it when it was first released, of course today its totally obsolete, but I used Humanoid with 3D Studio DOS and don't know how you can badmouth the great grandfather of Poser which I must have never read a bad review at that time. With the hardware of the times it performed wonderful and did as advertised. Now I have said my pace, I'm not going to become Curious Labs lawyer, my purpose in coming to these forums is not that but to learn how to use the software from more experienced users and help other with what I learn.

SimonWM. Adobe only produce Atmosphere which is a 3d web realisation tool not, as far as I know, a cgi development tool (like Poser) and requires the use of external applications such as Avatar Lab in order to be used properly. I'm not aware of anything else 3d from them. Microsoft produce no 3d Applications at all. So, seeing as you're picking a hole in my answer, how's about you use relevant examples yourself rather than two of the largest software manufacturers around? Last time I checked, Adobe were primarily 2D graphics, and Microsoft were also primarily 2d based with Office, Windows etc etc. No, I'm not counting games in this. Unless of course I missed something and they both now produce 3d development software? So. If you want answers relevant to something, perhaps you should generalise less yourself. As for McNeel. They hardly set a precedent did they? Microsoft did it from early days with Windows allowing a very broad spectrum of users to "test" the software before dumping it on an ususpecting public. Several other companies also allow broad based beta testing. Curious most likely did not have the time to indulge in something like that - doesn't mean they couldn't have though. Every company "could" do that. Most choose not to. JCleaver: You're right, some people have gone over the edge, perhaps because of complete frustration. As was pointed out elsewhere the majority or people on this site are not technically savvy, they're hobbyists and artists. The Pooser threads were not looking for help, just apparently an angry person venting. But, I think you'll agree that they were somewhat unique and it hasn't been repeated since.

Beta testing? Nope. It is unfortunate that there seems to be a compatability bug causing problems for a number of people, but the reality is that for many of us Poser5 is working well. While there are bugs, and it could have been more stable for more people the implicaiton that the software was shipped with the critical crashes known is simply false... this was not dumped out there and left for the users to clean up. Obviously CL knew about some bugs before the shipped, but I have fairly good information that there were no unknown crashes or "show stopper" bugs common during the beta test. In other words, the bug first manifests itself "in the wild". Me? I am happy to help some, but I am a little tired of the endless screaming and complaining. There are bugs and as another thread showed working together to find them and identify them will help get them fixed. But what the other thread ALSO showed was that many people have no interest or urge to learn anything. They expected to jump into a fairly modern render engine without taking any time to understand it or the options and "hit the button" and get the result they wanted. It simply won't happen that way. Moderately powerful renderers need to be tweaked. There are a LOT of settings that effect render quality and speed... and many of them are dependant on the scene you are rendering. But >some< of the people screaming (not all, some) don't want to hear it ... and it is getting old. You want help? Cool. Many of us will be happy to help. Youw ant to start a new thread every day ranting? Fine by me... but eventually people will ignore you.

What would be really interesting to see, then, would be an anonymous survey of all Poser 5 users as to whether they feel they have had major problems with it, both before and after the first patch. Then there shouldn't be anyone afraid to share their experiences, one way or the other.

soulhuntre: i fully agree to what you say !!!

"but I have fairly good information that there were no unknown crashes or "show stopper" bugs common during the beta test. In other words, the bug first manifests itself "in the wild"." And naturally, since any beta testers would be bound by NDA and unable to contradict or verify that, you're reasonably safe in making the assertion. Valid or not. Fairly good information eh? From.... ?

I wonder if the beta testers used a protected version. If not, they weren't exposed to the biggest bug in P5...Pace Interlock.

Oops! My last statement is just my (and many others') opinion.

"And naturally, since any beta testers would be bound by NDA and unable to contradict or verify that, you're reasonably safe in making the assertion. Valid or not." I was a beta tester and I can verify that. from what I saw during the beta program, we beta users did not have these problems. there were no known show-stopper bugs in the software when it shipped. and thanks for the good words from all. I've been trying to keep a can-do attitude towards just seeing what the problems are. what I'm seeing from last nights thread is that if we can identify the problems. then they get fixed.

No Jackson. I have fairly good information that they all had to wear a full body condom and likewise protect their computers before introducing BugWare 5 to their systems. I also have fairly good information that the cd came in and was required to be left in a cd condom so that "things" wouldn't transfer between system and disk... There is a vicious rumour going around at the moment, that some people didn't leave the cd in the special cd condom and have now caught anti-social bugs from irresponsible use of an unprotected cd. :) Now. Where did I put my meds....

Well I'm fed up with the crashes, the errors and instability of Poser 5 so like many other ppl, hi ho hi ho it's back to Pro Pack I go until Curious Labs manages to straighten out the mess that they've created. Like you Visque, I haven't got the time to root around with installing, uninstalling and all that waffle. .[S].

"I was a beta tester and I can verify that. from what I saw during the beta program, we beta users did not have these problems. there were no known show-stopper bugs in the software when it shipped." Oh really? raised eyebrow

And naturally, since any beta testers would be bound by NDA and unable to contradict or verify that, you're reasonably safe in making the assertion. Valid or not. ::shrugs:: Take it for what it's worth. I am certainly not going to incite anyone to break an NDA in order to convince anyone of this at all. I reported the information I have, in the only way that I can under the current circumstances. Like all information, it is to the reader to decide whether to act on it or not.

Oh, BTW - I DO understand your skepticism :)

"Oh really? raised eyebrow" har, good vulcan move. yes, there were none of the "will not run bugs" these really did develop when the program was released into the wild

FWIW, I distinctly remember a post by Steve Cooper that stated there weren't any show-stopper bugs that they were aware of until after it was released. I do not remember whether I read that here, or at PoserStyle.

shrug Based on all the posts over the past two years on what would and wouldn't be done in P5, including the: "we won't release till it's ready", "we're not rushing because we want it to be stable", "we cant fix poser 4 because it would detract from making sure Poser 5 is stable" etc... if Cooper said the sky was blue, I'd look out the window.

shrug Oh well, I guess Ironbear's opinion's going to be set in stone, despite all. "we're not rushing because we want it to be stable" as said from multiple beta testers and cooper himself, there were no instability bugs in the large beta test group. We've tracked down all the known stability bugs for BodyStudio in our beta test group. If another is found once we release, are you going to call me a con artist. I'm also excited about my software, just like all merchants here are excited when they release a new poser item. If I get excited about it and a problem is found after release are you going to say I'm running a scam? even if I release patches quickly like CL because I care.

My opinion's amenable to change when I see evidence proving contrary to what the opinions are formed on. You so far haven't shown me any. I'm not real impressed by warm fuzzies and fuzzy logic. Nor has Coop. I'm not seeing "from multiple beta testers". I'm seeing one - you, now being extrapolated to multiple. Is that the royal we, or the we of people with MPD? ;] Only other testers I've seen post that they were were PhilC and Kammerer. Phil's been a bit close mouthed, and Kammerer wasn't exactly glowing. "If I get excited about it and a problem is found after release are you going to say I'm running a scam? " Depends. You planning to make outrageous pre-release hypes, statements that won't hold on examination, and then huckster all the pre-release orders you can before it hits the shelves and reviewers so that people won't get a chance to see the flaws [if nay], and then post long teary sob stories about how you had to shill it for all it's worth and release it with known bugs because you were sleeping on couches with no pay? ;] If not, no worries. You're probably safe.

if nay = if any

"I'm not seeing "from multiple beta testers". I'm seeing one - you" and soulehuntre's post above. guess twas skipped! ;] oh, yeah, and jcleaver's post about cooper posting the same, but I know you're opinions keep you from thinking the pres is speaking the truth so just keep it to 2 for now.

I read both. Neither soulhuntre nor jcleaver stated they were beta testers. Are you sure you read them? Soulhuntre - "Obviously CL knew about some bugs before the shipped, but I have fairly good information that there were no unknown crashes or "show stopper" bugs common during the beta test." Nothing in that says he was a tester. Nothing skipped either, it was read and understood for what he was saying. Jcleaver - "FWIW, I distinctly remember a post by Steve Cooper that stated there weren't any show-stopper bugs that they were aware of until after it was released. " I read the same posts she did, we obviously came away with different impressions - however, she stated in her reccollection. No probs with that. "but I know you're opinions keep you from thinking the pres is speaking the truth " And I can see that yours keep you from thinking. Soulhuntre at least has a tendency I respect a great deal - he reads, thinks, and tends to document his thoughts where he can.

If anyone here was one of the beta testers can he (she or they) please respond to my question: Did you test a protected version or not?

"And I can see that yours keep you from thinking." disagreeing with your extreme views is not "not thinking." "You want help? Cool. Many of us will be happy to help. Youw ant to start a new thread every day ranting? Fine by me... but eventually people will ignore you." I'm going to go with soulhuntre on this one. Are there bugs whith p5, yeah sure. but every time we get real information to CL they fix the bugs. quickly.

I tested a protected version

Well, I don't seem to remember the sex change operation. I know I must be getting old if I forgot that! LOL! Boy will my wife be surprised. Probably a little pissed as well!

Rats. Sorry J - there's just something about your nick that brings "Leave it to Beaver" to mind, and it goes from there. ;]

I'm not a beta tester. I'd like to echo what soulhuntre said though. :) And also when I say I am not having such and such a problem, I don't mean it to gloat. I mean it to tell you that it is not a universal bug and so you should go ahead and report your system config to CL so they should go and do testing on a comparable system to yours, especially for you! That's what I would expect if the situation was reversed and I was the one having problems that others are not getting! If I find most other people are having the same problem, then I would report that as a software bug. This process will seperate software bugs from compatibility software bugs. It's just a nice to know piece of info. :) I have skimmed through all the rooms and putzed around in all of them in the last 2 or 3 weeks... haven't had any troubles yet. I've only just started delving into each room more now and actually saving renders. I am posting my poser 5 diary here. http://www.poserpros.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4936

Looks around, scratches head and wanders off into the sunset chuckling... Arthur Conan Doyle would have been proud of this place.

Sherlock's Quote of the Month: "It is of the highest importance in the art of detection to be able to recognise out of a number of facts which are incidental and which are vital. . . . " Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes, (1893). (lifted from http://www.infomrt.com/Sherlock/)

Nice one April. Not the one I was thinking of, but nevertheless a good one. :)

Ok questor, I'm rusty on the Doyle, what's the quote! :)

the Doyle? ... the Doyle? Heathen. :)

LOL, would ACD have been better :D (probably not, eh!?)

ACDC? "But how was I to know That she'd been shuffled before Said she'd never had a Royal Flush But I should have known That all the cards were comin' From the bottom of the pack And if I'd known what she was dealin' out I'd have dealt it back " - ACDC from The Jack Probably not. ;]

ACD? Erm, no, probably not. :) "You see but you do not observe." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Adventures of Sherlock Holmes, The Scandal of Bohemia Hate to leave people in suspenders for too long. :) ACDC? One of the best rock bands to come out of Australia. Never quite liked them as much after they lost the original lead singer. and finally... So may the outward shows be least themselves: The world is still deceived with ornament. In law, what plea so tainted and corrupt But, being seasoned with a gracious voice, Obscures the show of evil? In religion, What damned error, but some sober brow Will bless it and approve it with a text, Hiding the grossness with fair ornament? There is no vice so simple but assumes Some mark of virtue on his outward parts. Merchant of Venice, Shakespeare.

Heh heh. I can do Sir Doyle also: "On the contrary, Watson, you can see everything. You fail, however, to reason from what you see. You are too timid in drawing your inferences." --The Adventure of the Blue Carbuncle, Sherlock Holmes

"I wonder if the beta testers used a protected version. If not, they weren't exposed to the biggest bug in P5...Pace Interlock." The beta testers were issued key's for the software, and they had to go through the online "unlock" process. So I believe that the beta test was a protected.

From what I can gather reading these various threads - and not having P5: Assuming the people who say they are having few or no problems are not lying. Assuming the people who can't get anything to work aren't lying. I find both to reasonably credible. The only logical answer is that P5 is a program that is particularly sensitive to its environment, software and possibly hardware. OS versions, service packs, DLL loaded, runninf processes, memory and a dozen other things, any combination of which might cause problems in any unique configuration. One person see a reasonably stable, useable application, another person sees a piece of crap, the two are not mutually exclusive. So, did CL knowingly release a fatally buggy product, hoping to get some cash and skate by 'til they could get it fixed? Possible. More likely, they got generally good beta reports, a few bad ones and hoped that this ratio would be the same in the real world. Would they have held off release or had a larger beta test program if they'd had more money or if the clamor for P5 hadn't reached deafening levels? Probably. Do they need better tools, better QA or even better programmers? Definitely. Will endless public reports of problems (as opposed to informative bug reports to them), accusations ane people afraid to even install the patches help them fix the problems? No. Will public reports from people having no problems help? No, it will only make the people having problems angrier. Will CL even survive to fix P5, much less create a P6? I hope so.