so I'm not moaning or anything but i feel like the photo gallery is becoming a bit of a buddy system.
meaning there isn't any constructive crit going around these days and this is a place that ppl come to hide.
it's just how i feel and basically wanted to know: is there a ceiling of learning? like you get to a point where learning the basics is good and well and then ppl are scared of giving crit worth learning off coz it's like giving away secrets of their trade or they don't wanna lose friends by hurting their fragile feelings.

i know the site is open to beginners and learners and exp and opinions of all shapes and sizes. i just find that i ask spec for crit on what could be better i an image, i'll post something that i know isn't quite right and what comments from all opnions big and small but all i get are the "WOW" comments. look i'm not moaning, i like getting those but to be very honest they feel like they are pregen so that i might feel obligated to return the "favour".

does anyone feel the same way?
I know the forum is a good place for construct crit but most ppl are in the galleries and to me that's where alot of help could be tapped into but ppl don't offer their true opinions. i feel like if the whole gallery is getting pos comments all the time - why the hell are we all not pro's by now? plus i wish ppl would se the snap gallery for "my latest badly taken holiday shot" or "this is my best friend shot".

ARGH, I know I sound like I'm moaning, sorry -

I do here Vera! And thank you for this thread...

There is totally nothing wrong with what you did just mention! I felt the same, and i didn't wanna ask the same questions because i had the feeling that other members would get mad at me!

In fact i noticed all this about one and half month ago! I don't know why! Could be the members are busy! Or it could be just time has changed! You know what I mean!

I will wait for more answers.

And oh! You ain't moaning tho!

JOE

Attached Link: Constructive crit...

I think the thread i linked to is a good way to receive constructive critique if you are actively searching for it... and what you just said was the main reason i actually suggested the feature.  Apart from that if you select the critique option when uploading and also include in your description a blunt statement along the lines of:

"Please lay into this photo for any valid reason you can come up with, i want constructive critique"

You may get one or two who would just leave a "wow" comment actually thinking about it and leaving something more...

Also realise that a lot of people dont feel confident enough to give constructive critique as they dont know how to, or even if they are "qualified" enough... personally i think anyone with an opinion is qualified enough (as long as they can justify that opinion of course).

Y just beat me to it Rich, was about to post that very link,and I agree with your stance re: critiques....when you go there you know there's good stuff going on and everyone is there for similar reasons...not that it can't happen in the galleries as well but doesn't seem to unless someone specifically asks for a critique...folks are afraid of being called flamers I guess, tho constructive critisizim is anything but flaming IMHO.. ...

hee hee - i like the suggested comment - i might have to start paying royalities for it

i'm happy for even the "happy snappers" to comment honestly - if you like the colours but not the subject content say so, I mean everyone that buys art or pics has a personal taste and it's nice to know if you are or aren't catering for that and at the same time it's nice to learn and get honest open feed back from the "addicted happy snappers" to improve yourself/skills.
I know I ALWAYS give honest comments and don't do this gyneric "WOW, what an awesome shot, I really like this. Spectacular" - I know ppl who give the same comments over and over and over - and I mean literally copy and paste comments, personally I think that should be stopped, it's in sincere and actually a bit demoralising, you feel "geez did you even bother to take more than the 2 sec to look at the thumbnail before you pasted that".
personally i feel like the photo gallery is losing it's edge. but I'm really interested in the views on the topic

and tx for the link - i've added my piece :D

I totally agree with you and I have been asking for constructive critique - and receiving it from a few people - I look forward to my email that says X Y or Z has left a comment on my picture 'cos I know that they will have given an honest opinion with which I can learn from (two of these people have already left a comment in this very thread!!! :)

I find that if I don't like a particular photo in the gallery, I tend not to comment - that is the wimps way out I suppose as I don't like to say anything negative - I'm one of those people who doesn't feel "qualified" to critique, however, the comments I do leave, I genuinely mean and I learn from them too.

I can now look at pictures and know what DOF and compo are, and know whether I like the way they have captured those elements, so yes, I truly believe everyone should be honest - if they feel they can't in the gallery, then maybe a quick IM could do the job??

These are just my opinions though. xx

When I was taking classes in photography, the first thing I learned was to allow the other students to critique our work without getting our undies in a bundle. It was hard, especially if you felt the other students weren't as good as you or were SO much better, but we all dealt with it. Everyone has a valid opinion on a photo or any work of art. It doesn't matter if they like it or not BUT what appeals to them and how they would change it IS important. It helps us keep an open mind. You're not moaning! But, I've been here since 2003 and I gave up mostly because it didn't seem like people were willing to be critiqued. Plus, the people that get the most comments are the ones that make the most stops at other peoples uploads. I asked many people if there was a solution and I received no workable answers. Thanks for listening. Jodie

if you don't like a shot and don't feel "qualified" it's not a problem speak from your opinion and leave the technical/ruley stuff out of it - just say what you do or don't like. I'm a comment addict if I click on a thumbnail, I feel the need to say why i did and that might be a positive that's turned into a neg, coz some ppl make their thumbnails attractive and the pic is terrible, it's like movie trailers that show all the good parts of the movie in the trailer....

@ odie, I'm glad you had the balls to say it.

i think we all know that there are ppl that drop comments on every image that gets posted just to get a view or a comment back. I view and comment alot but don't get  lot back ad I don't really worry but I wonder if my honest opinion and help or "maybe doing it like this would work" is putting ppl off and like you say making ppl get their nuddies in a knot...

and odie - you can crit me any time see? i got broad shoulders - I find I've learn so much from here and all of a sudden it's STOPPED.

Very intersting tread Vera!

I have a same feeling....I uploading cute, ugly or horrible , underexposed, wrongly composed shots. I got a same attitude coments on all type of shots...and none or 1-2 actually tell me "hey what you doing is should be done this or that way"  I would be a most happiest person if somebody would open  my eyes to things what to do to make my shots better. OK, some might say get a book and learn or go to the photo course and listen. This is one way to get better taking fantastic and rightly composed shot, I choosed to share / show my work here and hoping for critiques. 
Other hand, I am not a good photographer just "taking a shot in a dark"  if you know what I mean. I have no knowledge of photography so I can not say what is wrong with a picture or what should be done different. Most of the time I include in my coment what I like on a picture, what is hold my attention or interest on a shot. This is a way I say I like a picture or not. Sometimes I realy have to say WOOOW! Those picture beyond my talent, those picture a dream for me, one day I might be able to produce art like that...untill then I just " dropp dead " on them!

seeya  Tunde

Well, Vera, I can understand what you're saying... But tell me: generally speaking, if I see an image that has absolutely not one bit of artistic or photographic quality, nor relevance, where do I begin my constructive critique... especially when that image has already gotten 30, 40 or 50 comments, saying how fantastic it is..? Frankly, what's the point? Personally, I find the whole thing so terribly ridiculous... too ridiculous for words. Sometimes I even find it hilarious to read those comments and to see who writes them... and sometimes I wanna say: okay, if you just want to say hello or comment back, just talk about the weather or something (some actually do), but don't go saying how fantastic an image is when it stinks like hell. I've seen people making the same horrendous mistakes on their last 200 or more uploads, and nobody's ever mentioning what's wrong... all they say is: "super-fantastic"... even the people that are supposed to 'know' what they're talking about. What they don't realise is that this attitude undermines the credibility of the whole system of giving and receiving valuable and constructive critique. I think there are some people here who know what they're talking about, but when I see some of them praising an image that's got nothing to be praised for, I'm really scratching my head, you know... and it has made me loose all faith in the 'critique' here. And me... I almost completely stopped commenting because it has become so stupid, empty and ridiculous. I'm not here for that particular buddy-factor. And another thing: it seems that what the majority are striving for (or what they want to see) is 'picture-postcard-perfect' images... Since when is there any photographic or artistic relevance in that..? I mean, if the purpose is selling, we can as well go selling candy or lemonade... This 'non-diplomatic' reply will probably hit me back in the face, but I had to write it one day or another... It's how I feel about it at this moment; and it will probably and hopefully change...

To give a critique there has to be something there to critique in the first place.
Perhaps it is what is not said that is more important than what is said.

As a complete novice in Photography, I would certainly appreciate honest critique and suggestions- I need the input to get better, but I am not getting it.

Unfortunately the culture here (and I am also guilty of it, I will admit) has become a bit of a scratch your back, scratch mine. I think a combination of the competitive nature of "most commented, most viewed, etc.." might have some relevance in the culture shift.  Sure, its always been here in one shape or another, but now it is in your face on the home page- forced to view.

Coming from the 3D realm initially (Poser, Lightwave, Vue) I see this all the time- artwork that comes from those that pat the back of everyone else, despite their own content, gets huge ratings and hits because people feel obligated to return the favor. One artist in particular comments on every render with "Fantastic Work!!!!!!" or something similar (no comment on content or anything) and receives massive return adulation, despite the repeated common theme for every one of their works. Like a template machine bent on receiving ratings- with no regard for true commentary on other artists works.

In other words, its like a popularity contest: If you give everyone possible a pat on the back, the return investment is huge ratings on your work. 

I noticed a huge drop off in views and comments on Photographs I posted vs. nude renders from Poser. Sex sells, even if its digital mannequins.

I do not think there is much a few can do to steer the rampaging cattle- but one good comment or suggestion can really help another artist or photographer. So, while I see no solution at hand, I do think that taking the time to set the example and comment honestly will help some. 

Also, I think another contributing factor to the "hug club" is the fear of offending someone. With so many cultures represented here, and language barriers inherent to an internationally populated site, people are hesitant to offer critique.  One would hope that we are all adults here, but living in the real world we know this is certainly not the case. 

Just my two cents, and a plea for the experienced photographers out there reading this to take a quick gander at my few recent photographs and tell me what I can do to improve.  Unfortunately at this stage, my personal experience is not at a level that I could offer critique or helpful advice in the realm of Photograhy- I could at least comment on the aesthetics of an image or the technical quality.

@ jde - see that's the attitude I like - you ar ewilling to comment on an image astetically coz you feel you are 'qualified' to comment technically. and that's fine.
I have commented on many ppl's shots after they've gotten the WOW comments and said - you know what this is just plain boring and of no interest or technical relivance. I think it prob get me alot of hate. I really like it when I give a crit and ppl IM me to say why they shot in a certain way - coz you know what they if you had a point to proof and I knocked on that good, that point was proved. But if you were playing about hoping for pat my back comments to make you feel good after a shitty day of work - post in th mysnaps gallery, that's what it's there for.

basically i wanna see the photo gallery restored back to it's learning naturing talent state...

Attached Link: ultimatedream

the point is even though am a learner like so many others here, i would only comment on an image that i feel has some kind of artistic feel to it, speaking in terms of colours, composition, exposure e.t.c  & not those point & shoot type.

And i just want everyone to know that  i do not consider my images to be flawless, so if u want to live constructive comments or critique, pls feel free to. it will not change the way i feel for ur images or u

Thank you AKPE and Richard for your answers... And I agree with you both 100%
I wish all these opinions were on the posts and not here tho.. But again, AKPE mentioned several true points...

For example.. I do have about 2 pages full of favorite artists in my page... Well half of them never posted actually since a very long time.. And the others are in and out.

I receive tens and tens of bots everyday. I have to go through them one by one to see whats new, and what was uploaded from those artists i am watching...

If i see something really important/interesting and needs my con. cri. i will right a way.. And there some other posts that doesn't really need anything! Sigh! I mean they are totally perfect and by the time you see it! You just WOW! And your mouth will get shut!

Now about the third type of art, that i would say that they don't have anything related to art or such community. I don't know what to tell..

Again, like AKPE said, i've seen recently the most voted/commented features were added to renderosity! I also saw how many members are racing each other so they can reach the rank! While just browsing the galleries, of those i know or i never saw in my life! I found something very interesting tho!

I've seen people who faved+ more then 10 pages of artists!!! I just don't get it, why! Is that really helping in anything! Or its a favor which is traveling from artist to another!

I also noticed recently, there are some uploaded low quality images! I am not sure about the policy or rules around here to upload art.. But i am pretty sure that in the top art communities online they allow only the highest quality, otherwise they will flag/delete the poor ones.

Now with these here, i was totally in shock to see how many comments they did receive!!

Anyways.. I just wanna tell, this won't help in anything.. People/artists will remain the same, I just like this place, more then any other one out there! And hope it will remain like this at least.

Now me off to browse some 3D stuff around

Have a nice weekend all and happy easter guys

JOE

No on should feel their opinion - if honestly intended - wouldn't count. If your only experience with "art" is buying it only at your local department store, you opinion counts. You have every right to look at an image and say "ya know, that "red shirt" is just glaring - I can't take my eyes off of it, and it feels like it's just dominated your actual subject and  can't appreciate the image as a whole." You don't have to have any formal training and years of experience to know that something in this image doesn't work for you - and that's valid.

I actually only comment on images I really like - unless I see they specifically ask for critique - and even then I make sure to say something I DID like about it - I realize they wanna hear what does NOT work, but they also need to hear what DID work.

And yeah, the copy/paste method of comments is almost insulting - it's merely a "hey, here's my name, click on my gallery" tactic, and it's just silly.

When I peruse, I admit I pretty much only click on thumbnails that look promising - and it's almost always in the 3D galleries that I specifically choose (C4D, then Max, then Vue - sometimes XSI). My time is usually pretty limited during the week so I only really go to specific galleries.

I almost never actually peruse the Photography gallery - please don't take this personally - I'm trying to learn 3D. So my only interation with "photography" is within the Forum (here) as far as photography is concerned.

Enter your images in the Critique Threads - I think it was a fantastic idea (Inshaala - I seem to recall you had it). You'll get honest feedback - and even if it's not YOUR image, you can pick up some things about composition, lighting, angle, etc. Technical as well as creative.

One final note - back to the copy/paste comments - my last image was actually kind of a test (I think I'm about to get shot for telling you this, but here goes...). It was an image I was pretty sure only I would appreciate as it's a friend of mine and just something I did for personal fun for me and my friend. I loaded it to specifically see if I would get "Bravissimo!! HUGSS!!!" in my comments. I swear this person would copy/paste this comment on EVERYTHING and so far they've proved me wrong :-(

Let the flaming begin... Yes, I can take it, I'm a big boy.
-Lew ;-)

it's funny thou that the ppl who copy and paste have so far avoided this thread...
WE KNOW WHO YOU ARE! and it is most insulting as Lew has mentioned - so if your comment doesn't have your heart in it, stop the copy and paste crap!!!

I've also noticed that the ppl who use the buddy system of scratch my back and I'll scratch your have too stayed away, i suppose it isn't nice to be ousted. plus we wouldn't wanna add hypocrite to the list of "should not do's".

guys I'm really glad see that I'm not alone in my feelings, thanx for all the feed back.

I bad I know I most the time just say "that super " and go on. I rush for time at times. many times i see images that I do not know what to say but "Super" 
then there is time I do see something and I IM the person to tell them what I think will help. Some got mad at me. 
 I know a lot of comments I get is the "WOW" type too. I like it but at times I wish someone tell me it " junk and I do not understand what you doing". I go back into my gallery and look at images and see a lot of things wrong with them. 
I not mad I know I grown and I know a lot of people is like me just do not know what to say at times. And the times I do say something it most the time a IM. sometimes it on the comment but rare. 
Peewee I know I do say "super on most your work and I sorry for it. I know you looking  to see if this the right way to go. I do not know at times. I do not know what to say at time. I saying this now for I do know what to say. When I do know I will write it ok. 
@ **babuci I saw your photos that was blown too but did not have the heart to tell you and that goes with a lot of photos too. I SORRY I haves failed all in the comment  constructive crit 
**hope I did not lay this on too heavy. i was in the '60's live happenings and I was out of it. guess i make no cents here lol [live theater] nothing made cent back then. lol

I mean to say that i have not the heart to a lot of other people photos too @ babuci
lol I think I wrote it backwards
it hard to write down stuff and tell what you mean ;plus everyone is looking at the RR cops too on the TOS

I tend to comment on the images that I like, I am guilty of the "beautiful work" type comments, but I will give constructive comments if I feel I have somthing to offer.

@Jocko and Viper - don't worry guys - there's nothing wrong with repeated simple comments. The ones that I have a gripe with are VERY clearly non-sincere, but trying to get you to look at their gallery.

One in particular... And not from the Photography crowd... I'm sure you've gotten at least ONE from them, if not a bunch...

Constructive comments are also hard to give sometimes as this is an art site, so what may be a over exposed picture to you could very well be what the photographer intended. I have noticed some pictures that just really werent up to par with what the member had posted in the past and I had to make a comment on those pictures as he was receiving nothing but the standard "OMG what beautiful work" I looked at it and was like "what is this its out of focus and pixelated, this is terrible" now I didnt say it that way as that would not have been constructive.

At viper - I think jinet is the best at constractive crit. he is honest and realy knows what he's talking about. the thing about art is it's still gotta follow rules, painting, drawing, photography all of those. and if a photographer meaningfully over exposed a photo for effect they need to state why in their text and what the perpose of that was so that we who like to comment can understand the 'art' much better.

plus most ppl over expose or puch the editing too far ad are to scared to admit failure are that they are still learning.

you've gotta comment on what you see to your eye and if you don't like it say so and why.

if you submit a pic to a photo mag for crit the first things they look at are compo, exposure, thirds, other rules and technical areas and last interest of pic. coz the picture can be as boring as shit but if all the photographic skills are mastered and colours are exposive then those could be the factors that turn the whole shot around...

I've been hesitant to join in this conversation because I'm such a newby about the art world. 

but

I have always felt that the "Gallery" was for displaying a persons artwork. People could browse at their leasure and say (or not) what they wish. I LOVE to recieve critiques on my photos but I don't expect them any more than I expect a comment at all. While I hope that people will view and leave comments I don't want anyone to comment out of a feeling of obligation.

I still feel that the best place for a critique would be the photography forum but I'm afraid that since the start of the critique sticky thing that now people don't know if they can drop a picture in to be scrutinized on the spur of the moment....maybe they can't (?) .

@ Firesnuffer - you can upload any image you want to have scrutinized in the gallery. The difference is that you've gotta tell the viewers in your comments section - "Hey, not sure this image works and I'm looking for crit/advice" kinda thing. The Critique Threads are a more formal critique with interaction. I think there's 2 a week...? Just let Danob know about it, and he can tell you what to do as far as procedure.

And don't worry for a second about being a newby - anyone who would make you feel unwelcome just because of that shouldn't be part of a community. I kinda feel there should be no room for elitists. Okay, there's no "kinda" about it - there should be no room ;-)
-Lew ;-)

When I feel a critical comment is needed I will do that..don't do it often enough likely.  With me, this has nothing to do with pat my back and I pat yours..that means nothing to me.

While newbies and developing artists(I am developing muchly because of this place) need critique, I am not going to flame them and beat them down.  If the image really needs helpful advice and I am able to offer that, I prefer to use the IM and "discuss" the image more than blast into it.  Then, I will offer more advice if the poster wants that, like "how I would have done it".

I have sometimes IM'd members who do really great work and asked them to look at a shot of mine and get back to me with thoughts.  This process has been likely the MOST beneficial.  When sincerely solicited, most will respond with honest and valuable thought.

Then...what is the purpose of galleries? A critique zone or a place to display what you consider your better work?  Or both?  Both, I would hope but I still reserve most critique for IM contact of a more personal sort.         TomDart.           

You can pat my back if you really like something I do..and critique if you desire..no probs from me there.  Afterall, I can easily decide to accept or reject the critique.

People, please look at my stuff and tear me a new one, okay? ;'P This issue has come up a lot in the past and probably will again in the future. I am with Tom in feeling there is a place for all kinds of genuine comments. Renderosity is a community with people of all skill levels and many languages. Serious artists post here as do people just putting up a gallery for fun. There is room for all sorts of comments in the galleries. I think many are here to browse around and if they see something they like they say so, or if they see a friens work they comment as a way of saying hello. Also, some people are new to Renderosity and perhaps their chosen art arena as well, and some encourage is greatly appreciated by them. If you are really looking for constructive feedback, sadly you have to be very clear about asking for it. I know that I don't have time to examine every image and express my opinion in great detail -- nor do I know if it is wanted unless specifically asked for. You can't make everyone happy. Perhaps always leave the type of comments you want to recieve, and be very clear about they type you want in return. Otherwise, skim through the fluffy stuff and glean what you can from the few precious nuggest you get left! :)

Thank you, Kort.  Very well put and diplomatic, as usual.
Jodie

Kort, what you're saying is basically that Renderosity is an entry level art gallery and that people who are serious about photography should specifically mention that they are, to get the serious feedback they want... Well, I believe the purpose of this thread was just to 'suggest' that it doesn't seem to work somehow... And yes, that has been suggested many times before, and it has always been answered by the cozy sedating covers of diplomacy (like in Jodie's remark). And I believe it will be discussed many more times after this thread...

That is not exactly what I am saying Gert. I am not sure what to classify Renderosity as, but perhaps entry level art gallery is appropriate. All I can say is that there are all different sorts of people here for many different reasons. For some, it is to be social. Does that make it wrong? No, but it may not be what you want out of it. Believe me, i am frustrated with comments that are non-constructive as well. To be clear, just because a comment is all positive, does not mean it is isn't constructive. But a generic "love it" doesn't really do much either. I only suggest that if you wish to get constructive critique on an image, make it clear and be specific. There is a work in progress gallery but is underutilized and a bit to broad in my opinion. I think most people posting images feel that they have reached a point where they can proudly put it in their gallery, whether that is truly the case or not. So I think they view other's work in the same light. If you can think of a way to get people to put more thought critique into their comments, I'm all ears. Until then, I think you have to make it very clear when you post your image that you are looking for helpful feedback, or post it in the Forum in a thread like the Constructive Critique. If you know of any web sites that only criticially review posted works, I think we'd like to hear about them.

I have stayed out of this thread until now but I think one other point should be thought about. Way back when this subject came up before, a lady had posted a few photos that were not very good in so far as the focus was off and a few other things were wrong. She was criticized by some at the time, no I don't remember who but what I do remember was this lady was very upset by what was said. It turns out she was suffering some debilitating disease and some days could not even get up never mind hold a camera. The poor photos she had posted were to her a great achievement and she wish to post them in her gallery for all to see.
She was crushed by the response she got, and while the people concerned didn't know of her problem, it just goes to show there are many people here from all different walks of life and with different problems to over come. We do not know when we comment what the reason for the imperfect photo is. All I say is not everyone is fit and able, so have a little thought how you tell someone their photo is rubbish, you may be destroying someone's hope and pride.

Just some thing to think about, I am not pointing fingers, life is too short. Be kind to each other it doesn't cost anything.

Pat makes a good point. That is why it is so important to try to find the positive in an image as well as the areas that need work. Always present your critiques in a kindly manner, not in an abuse way. I am sure that no one here would do that anyway, but it is not always easy to critique without sounding harsh.

Thank you Tom and Kort!

You just said everything needs to be said! And i guess that how we should manage with each other in the communities, either here or some where else..

Now me off this thread, because its getting really bigger, and bigger.. And i don't have the brains to calculate such things and issues!

@ Jodie!! You also said the right thing honey..

So thank you all and have a nice day

JOE

It is a sore point for us ppl wanting to learn and share wisdom that we can't share openly or that the ppl with knowledge don't have time to share.

I think my main thing is the buddy system, there is no way to prove it's happening, ven thou we know it is, hence that is no way to stop it.

I mean I had my head bitten off once for posting a very simple, short opinion and honestly I'm wondering whether to even carry on commenting during my views other than saying I like a shot. It just seems that we don't have enough ppl taking comments good or bad as adults. And when one friend sees another friends picture that has a bad comment on it, they jump into defense of the friend and come purposefully bash your images or send you IM's. And I feel that this should be upto the original poster to IM if they need clarification.

Basically I've got broad shoulders and learnt a long time ago that you don't need the whole world to love you, and guess in just tired of feeling like the galleries are abit like high school...

Yes Vera, it is a sore point in that respect. My photography teachers were twenty times as cruel and hard as any critique I've ever seen here on RR... but the thing was that you made sure not to come up with the same mistake twice. And you really learn something that way, and quick... make a mistake and learn from it straight away... and if you take that for what it is, it's really helpful... if you really care for it... But I guess we don't have 'respected' authorities like that here ;o))) And people think that you're bashing other people's works, when you're just trying to help them improve...

hello PeeWee !

i agree with you ! i want constructive critiques too ! I think we are a little group of people here who want it... I've made Art School (i begin when i was 10yo, i'm 31 today)  So, i know what a critique is, i know how some people cannot accept it !!!

Some people here are just posting for fun and are very happy when 'wow' & 'fantastics' appear...

Sometimes  i don't dare to really criique a pic, sometimes like others here, i just don't have enough time :o(

Why don't just put a sign or a little phrase with '! PLZ - CRTQ !' by example ?? Like that, everybody here know that you are really searching for critique and you are ready to hear it ...

see ya ;o)

Off the top of my thoughts, directly to the keypad...first, I don't see that "lack of critique" makes this a "beginners" site.  That is a leap beyond me.  As a  beginner at first, flaming critique would likely have put me down so far I would have been quite down and hesitant to post again.  I did not then know the difference in honest critique and well disguised self serving cruelty.  What did I do? I looked around in the galleries. I saw wonderful images done much better than mine..yet at the time of posting my first stuff, I was proud of it feeling accomplishment.   I do have empathy for the others who now are in the same shoes I wore then.  I do not critique beyond what is asked or is obviously needed.  Then, the honestly needed is spoken kindly and generally by IM and not on the posted comments.  I keep it pretty much between me and the poster and that does quickly give the option of recourse to that poster as desired.

Read a play review.  One critic says, "Wonderful presentation" and another flames every member of the cast and the production crew.  Each critic comes from a different stage in the same venue.  The same holds true here.

Part of the so called "problem" is that photography is grouped into >photography>genre, not in a critique gallery.  That would seem an unworkable solution and the critique thread is not a bad beginning at all.  There are so many images..who sees all and has the opportunity(it blessed by the time) to critique all they see?  And without regular vistors to your gallery, it is a hit and miss as to who will happent to see your thumbnail while looking things over.   

Again, the likely best solution is to ask for critique and even IM a few proven members to let them know you poste and to take a critical look! That is not a difficult task.

As for some photos, I might see an image that grabs me from the first view.  At that point, I see less of the technical detail and see the emotion and "speaking" of the image to me.   Then, the critic comes along and says "that leaf is distracting and the dof should be such and such".  Likely true...but did that critic see the image and feel the emotion and hear it speak? If not, the critic is stuck to tecnnical detail and that frankly misses the artistry of any image to some extent. I do not dismiss the technical because that is what makes or breaks most images...but the content should not be missed. Unfortunately, as two men sitting on a hill watching a city below, one crys then laughs...the other does not understand and only speaks of the wails not being woeful enough or the laughing not jovial enough.  I would rather be able to laugh and cry with those others thant to not feel that empathy.  Some critics miss the point and speak from only techincal ivory towers.  Some, some few do give merit to the speaking of the image and are also able to give kind and helpful criticism of the technique.   So much for that speech! Take it as you might.

Develop the thought of asking for criticism and not expecting it automatically and the 'rosity site is easy to live with and very satisfying.   Ask those you respect to view and critique your image when they have the time.  Most will do just that.  This is a work around but it does work.

Allow the beginners to get their feet wet and learn as did I and as I still do...with the mostly friendly atmosphere which is acceptance of the novices and respect of those who have proven their stripes.

Just a thought or three or four or more.  Hoo boy..I am done with this keypad for a while.

Yes, this kind of discussion can go for years and be lost and resurface with much the same sort of comment.  We live with what we have and I am glad to have it.  There are work arounds if we make use of that.                 TomDart.

I just posted an image and asked specifically for criticism of the use of "selective color". We will see what happens.  At the same time, I don't feel the galleries is the best place to find contructive critique..we will see how this one pans out.   Likely, the image will be deleted after a while of viewing.          TomDart.     

As a beginner and untrained picture taker my opinion is there seems to be a need for a page with some basic rules.  I seemed have been ticking off a lot of members and not knowing it.  My apologies for not specifically asking for critique, it must have been very agonizing not to be able to add a constructive comment. I checked the box on the upload page.  The mission statement of this gallery provides some guidelines but seems to be mostly ignored.  And I can't help but wonder what kind of thoughts go through your heads when you see my thumbnails.  Of course my last upload speaks volumes to that and the buddy system point of view of this thread.

The views in this type of  thread have  been educating and eye opening.

Many thanks for taking the time expressing your opinions here,  I know that it is very valuable.

Mike

And as a postscript, I was viewing an upload of a very established photographer this morning and thought something just didn't seem right to me.  So as I was reading the posted comments I ran into a critique that expressed what was bothering me about the photograph.  However the next comment blasted this view essentially saying the reviewer didn't understand a thing about this type of photography and the picture was perfect.  There were about a dozen other comment saying how great it was also.  Buddy system.  Tough on a newby to pick up whats needed for an acceptable photo to post here.

Mike. I appreciate your thoughts here from the "newbie" point of view. Let me just express a thought or two. I don't believe there is such a thing as an unnacceptable photo if it somehow speaks to you or expresses something for you. Even a "poorly taken" photograph can be a valuable learning tool. Not everyone here is looking for a critique and I agree that it would be great if there was an easier way for ones who wanted that to get that message across. You could check only the "critical comments are welcomed" button only when you upload your images but I fear most people ignore that little message. There is no easy solution here but specifically asking for pointers and asking for assistance in the Forum is a good place to start. In the end, all you are getting are opinions. Some from beginners and some from educated, experienced artists. People are free to disagree with each other, as long as it is kept polite and civil. Time to upload an image...let's see what I get! ;']

Having just seen a similar photo to the one mrmadmike described i just have to add that critical comments are worth a substantial amount more than "buddy system" comments. So to those in this thread complaining about it you will realise that you come out on top in the scheme of things if you only get one critical comment because the "buddy system" posts really dont mean much from a critical/artistic/analytical perspective and only offer (sometimes misguided) encouragement and not pointers.

I have found in the past that if you explicitly say Hit me with constructive critique, i want some, dont be shy now... you will get people trying to be critical - except maybe for those who are doing the copy paste thing and probably dont read the description anyway.

Just my two pence.

Oh and as an idea - maybe follow what dpchallenge does - it has a "critique club" where member volunteers sign up and have their own mini forum/page to handle posting critique on other member's work who have submitted it to the group. The critique is then posted on the person's upload in the comments section.  I'm fairly sure that there are some kind souls out there who wouldnt mind offering some constructive critique - say 5-10 a week? Obviously (like the CC thread) people would have a limit on the amount of times you can submit.
Anyway - it might be difficult to 1. implement 2.get off the ground. 

On the same note - where is yesterday's CC thread? :(

I think that constructive criticism is great as long as the person doing it can can come up with some ideas to recitify the criticisms.  Joe (Nattarious) does this and is willing the share his knowledge with others.  Jinet is another who will only comment on images which he thinks are really good.   This, in itself, has the knock-on effect that no so many people comment on his images as they used to, which I think is a shame, because he is an extremely talented artist. 

I must admit that I am a bit of a 'pussy cat' and cannot bring myself to be too critical of people's pictures, especially when they have gone to so much time and effort.     What do they say,  "If you ain't got anything good to say, don't say it"!!!    I know this does't help in the critique stakes but at least I won't hurt anyone's feelings!

I enter competitions at my Photographic Society and have to sit there and listen to what judges say, good or bad, and you have to be prepared to accept criticism when your images are up for judgement.  In a sense, this could be the same with Renderosity.

Anyway, I am always up for critique and advice.   We are none of us perfect!!

Eileen

@ mrmadmikie - I think that's an excellent idea about the photo rules page...

come on mods and admin, get on it in the community page or something

:b_grin:

Hello guys...

Did any one answered TOM on his REQUEST!

Well that is another thing here, sigh! I guess to solve these kinda problems is just simple!

The admins/mods of the community should add a new GENRE in the art's posting page! For example:

I am a photographer and posting a photo, it goes under the PHOTOGRAPHY GALLERY now in the GENRE should be new one added as: CRITIQUES NEEDED!!

That will help a lot and will makes things much easier. Also it will take 5 sec to add this GENRE/UPDATE from any admin or site coder!

By adding this, the poster and the others, who is really looking/reviewing/commenting/ or just copying and pasting some bla, bla cause they just wanna return a favor or wanna get the same result/comment form the other party!

If that will help, then do it please, and do it fast..

Thank you and regards..

JOE

Tx Yaguar for adding light - sorry dude, I've been reading so much I missed to add it on to the big grinning face post, cheers mate for that

:)

I have had several critical comments on my recently posted image.  This showed at least one way to accomplish that purpose.  Not all who commented are on this thread, I believe.  They would have responded to the text asking directly for critique.      Thanks.

I say what I had too on Tom's image. 

I know we all like to know what is really on people minds when they look at our images. But I do not think it possible. and even if it was it may be the wrong stuff. I had a judge say he judge some one work and the preson enter it into another show without changeing iot and it won first place. Guess it all up to the person and what what they wish to see in art.

Which brings up another subject. What is Art?

Most know Van Goah and his art. He was not like when he was alive . His own mother who show him how to draw thow away cases of his art. His brother wife went and find what she could of his art. Of couse his brother was about the only one who bought his work. But his brother die six months after the painter died. Now he world know.

He talk to other artists in Paris and they did tell him to lighting up his colors and this he did and his art became even better.

I know this is a painter but we all know his story. Where I going with this I got no ideal now. Just something to think about.  I got no anwers

Jocko, you make a very good point.  It is easier to judge the techincal parts of an image that to decide what the image "says".   To each his own...and art critics have their points of view and each may vary.  Some use a standard rule book, it seems, using the same standards for all they see.  Much is in the heart of the one viewing.  To me, that is where the picture is valuable, what if says to me in joy, comfort, shock, fun or whatever.   Another person may see none of this at all.  

I work with one man who loves nature. He sees birds and trees and rabbits as I do..lovely and appreciated creatures and living things...others see none of this and think little of the beauty and power of destruction around them.  I feel sad for those who cannot or do not see and feel the life of nature or the life of a piece of art.   Thanks for your words.       Tom.

art = interpretation in my book, put quite simply.

Someone told me not to have made reference to Franco Fontana in one of my uploads as an inspiration for the shot, saying it was unoriginal and "pretentious".  I say: no-one is truly original, merely developing a thread picked up from those who came before, and to be honest about why you took the shot and why it is presented as it is, is merely accepting that fact... not being pretentious...

So yeah - art is what you want it to be... i had fun in a spanish class today creating a piece of Barroque writing, in which the language is heavily convoluted* and laden with metaphors on various levels, it was close to prose verse - almost a poem.  Is that art?

*we were set the task of describing a student's room, and we only managed to describe the placement of the door, the door itself, the poster on the door and the locks on the door - we didnt even enter the room and we were already half a page worth of writing (and yes, it was all one sentence) - yet from just those descriptions you knew the character of the occupant, and his outlook on life.

I'm a little scared to post a reply here since I just posted a pic that I suspect deserves some pretty serious constructive criticism.  Not that I don't want any - I welcome it, but the idea of fifty fired up people all hammering me at the same time might be a little overwhelming.

I think there needs to be another option on the comments pulldown for "No seriously, I encourage constructive criticism.  I'm not kidding.  I really do.  Go ahead.  It's ok."

And finally, I catch myself using some generic "wow" comments, but that comes from a lack of technical vocabulary.  I know what I like, but can't always articulate why.   I only comment on pics that catch my attention, never out of obligation, so please no one comment on mine out of obligation.

Thanks.  David.