Okay, Ron...this started out as a thread about Marque and you have managed to make it about you and your grievances with PWFW...interesting. Seems you have some issues with PWFW...perhaps in the forum over there would be more appropriate, instead of starting another "griping" session about a different site..use their forum that's what it's for. Shame on YOU Ron. I'm with Kendra on this one. No one should be bashed. Actually this thread should have never appeared here. Marque, I'm sorry you are having download problems. Other then that, has everything been okay with your subscription? What updates have you not gotten, what product? I'm sure Steve and Rena will help you if you just let them know. I don't know what other steps you have taken to insure that it is the server at PWFW and not a bottleneck between your isp and them. It's worth a try :) Rena and Steve. Thank you for your hardwork. I love both of you...I truly do. What you have done for the community and what you are now doing is a wonderful thing. I understand the frustration, and the embarassement that occurs when people post things before they think (and sometimes even after they think) and do not post in the appropriate forums or private mailings. Too much of that goes on. The internet has made large egos bigger and people unafraid to act in a manner that would be inappropriate if it were "real life". I probably wouldn't have called Marque a "whiner"...at least not here. Good customer service? Probably not. But you are frustrated and Marque is frustrated, so you both have inappropriate postings. It happens, you are only human. I do not think of PWFW as another Marketplace. I think of them as another community. I enjoy it over there, when I have the time to visit. I find Rena and Steve much more approachable then any other community with a store and I like that. I like that they think of it as friends and not a store. That's a good thing. Rena and Steve don't have to kiss my butt..I do expect them to be courteous yes...as long as I am courteous to them. But when I start consistently complaining (whining) about something that they have no control over, and think I have the right to tell them how to run their business (because I assume that apparently I know all of the ends and outs that it takes to do what they do of course) and how to spend their money..and think I have the right to tell them what they can and cannot post because they just happen to have a subscription site...and then I post my grievances in a public forum that isn't even on their site. Yeah I would expect to get a little bit of heat. You bet. And this would go for any merchant...not just PWFW, not just Marque and Ron et al.... Personally I think this thread should be locked. Nothing really useful going on here anymore. Or ever for that matter. Pendarian

Hi, Rene and Steve have decided to run Poserworld on a few ideas. Lower cost vs More T1 lines Transpancy on opperations vs Security and critizie (Ex. No comment on Poser 5) Showing a human face vs Showing human failurs of not working 48 hours a day and stasifing everyone Ranting about problems vs Ignoring issues I choose to join Poserworld (under my real name) and am very happy. Needing to save money I was thinking about dropping the account and joining up six months or a year later. But now I will be joining longer. Why? Rene's rant. It shows how many problems she has and I want to support her. They are running a wonderful company and it seems to be working. Thanks!

Just to add my tuppence... I will definitely be renewing my PW subscription...and I have no complaints about the download speeds or the site. I have a pathetic 56k dial up connection, and it all works great for me. Being in a different time zone makes a big difference, perhaps. Not to mention the sheer quality and quantity of what I'm downloading. Steve and Rena have my unconditional support. Ron, there's a difference between customer service and being a doormat. As someone who works in customer service, I have to tell you there are times when "the customer is always right" simply isn't true, and there are times when being blunt saves a lot of future headaches. When people interact away from the workplace, with people who might be customers of the company they work for, they are not expected to stay in "work mode" all the time. Rena spoke for herself, as a human being, and as a member of this community, she has as much right to do so as anyone else here.

"Since it looks I am the one on the spot here, just because I was 100% honest stating what I trully think (and the very first to call it an unprofessional attitude - so READ that line of my post once again..)"

I am not really sure why that is supposed to excuse something - if I was to say "I know this is a copyright violation but..." would that matter.

OK, so you know it's unprofessional... and so do many of us. Glad we agree :)

"Remember that some people will read this thread and think "I'll take my business elsewhere.""

I have been on the cusp of hooking up with PW for a long time - and every time a discussion surfaces here about it I become less and less likely to do it. There have been issues and problems and it seems like in the end it comes down to situation where the people doing the asking get insulted or blown off. Not 100% of the time, but often.

It's too bad that so often with PW and the Poser merchants in general a complaint about a product is taken as an insult to a person.

I have had an eye opening experience with a recent purchase of mine - the vendor is popular and seems to be friends with other vendors and artists, so their products are usually met with great joy when they come out ... but in private responses several of the same people have acknowledged that similar problems are common and  they don't use that vendors product.

Why isn't any of this mentioned publicly? So as not to hurt the vendors feelings or insult them, or hurt the sales because this vendor needs the money. So I guess the consumer is the loser because nothing can be discussed objectively without it seeming like a personal attack.

"PS: Thanks for letting me know though the way you see us.. I'll keep that in mind next time we decide on our subscription fee.. since we "ARE" merchants and not sentimental poser fools, maybe a revision of policy should be due soon! VL sad grin"

And threatened.

So if we aren't nice and quiet and polite the price will go up? All I can say is that I can't imagine depending on PW as a primary source of items if I took a threat like that seriously.

"But the Customer is not always right. Nor does the customer always deserved to be treated like royalty simply because they are spending money."

No one thinks that should have happened, but you can say a lot of things to a customer politely - and you should if it's your business. There is a big difference between "I'm sorry you feel that way, but many of our customers seem satisfied so I think it is best of you don't renew" and calling someone a "whiner".

And I really fail to see how insulting a client is a imperative for good mental health :)

I think the folks at PW are trying to do right by the community, and I am sure for those who can use their products it is a good deal - and I am glad everyone seems to be happy. But i doubt that I would be happy there - and it is discussion in public forums that has let me see that.

"And threatened. " I think that was sarcasm...."And I really fail to see how insulting a client is a imperative for good mental health :)" but its perfectly ok to harm us and our buisness, seems like a double standard, especially in light of your final paragraph :o)...Steve

Well decide on your subscription based on whether the product is right for you, not by what you are reading in this thread or other threads as a perceived lack of customer service. If you do that, then you would have to surmise that the majority of the customers for PWFW are very, very satisfied despite some having slow download times. There are problems everywhere when it comes to downloading on the net, I cannot think of a single online store that does not have those problems. I do not depend on any one store as a primary source. Because frankly, any site for whatever reason could be gone tomorrow. And Soulhuntre, I don't know how long you have been around the 3d community. But Rena and Steve have been "doing right" by the community for a very, very long time. The only reason they decided to go to a subscription site was because bandwidth had become so horribly expensive simply because of the free downloads they used to supply to the whole community. So instead of totally closing up shop as they were going to at first WE the community begged them to stay open any way that they could. I'm not saying that it couldn't have been handled differently because it could have on BOTH sides. This should have never even hit the forums here if all Marque was really looking for was a solution to her problems. And someone is always more then happy to add more negative spins if they have an axe to grind of their own. It's simple...if Marque cannot download what she needs because of the servers, then don't resubscribe. If she finds in her investigation that it is in fact a problem that stems from something other then PWFW server, then she needs to deal with that any way that she can. And then she needs to make that as publically known as she has the fact that she believes it's their servers. But in no way would I make a decision on whether or not to participate in something like what PWFW offers just because of threads around here. I've "known" Rena and Steve for a while now and have seen them handle the volume and the workload as well as they can for what we demand of them. People are louder when they are unhappy then when they are happy when it comes to products. Everyone knows that. Marque did not say she was unhappy with the quality of the products, she's unhappy because the servers at times seem to crawl. Personally, I recommend them. Perhaps you should speak with Rena, Steve or Allen before making a final decision. You've listened to and perhaps even spoken through IMs with various people...perhaps you should also with the PWFW folks. But then again, if you have no use for the products, don't subscribe. Pendarian

Anyone who gets 'discouraged' from subscribing to PWFW because of this kind of thread - boy, you are missing out big! THE REAL ISSUE IS: PWFW HAS GREAT STUFF, WORTH EVERY PENNY IT COSTS - regardless of whether Marque or Ron have some sort of complaint or not, real or exaggerated. I've been a member a couple of months now, and enjoying it all the time - except the first few hours after a big release. Suddenly a thousand members attack the lines and want everything NOW. Then I wait a few hours - and download. Simple as that, see? I mean, geez, this is the web, waiting sometimes, that's life on the web. PWFW, as I understand it, consists of 2 people doing what they love, and do it well (and get better and better all the time, I may add), sharing it with memebers for a decent fee - and that's it. That's PWFW. Along with servers and lines and costs and complaints and 'Oh WHEN am I going to get that pink jacket texture I've wanted for 3 DAYS now???' requests...... And being in different parts of the world, and trying to keep it all together - and trying to go on enjoying it - and I bet, wondering occasionally whether it's worth it...... :o] Ron, that stuff about how PWFW is a business, blah blah, give us a break, OK? And Marque, download the next day, OK? And let's got on with what's fun instead - Poser. OK? :] FishNose I get so TIRED of all of this aggravation and aggression, wind down, people!

If you're running on a Mac, go to www.igetter.net and download their version 1.8 -- works every time! If on a PC, doesn't IE5 support re-starting broken downloads? It used to! Rena and Steve are doing their best, but the server they're on isn't theirs, so do one of the above and leave them alone! Jim Moore

Say what you will, but Renderosity is better than any soap opera. Some people have this one-dimensional quality about them, even before I read their messages I know what they have written. Ok, thats an overstatement, but some pet peeves appear again and again.

My PW subscription is one of the best investments I did ever. Thats all I say about this topic.

@Questor:
You can blame me for the smilies. Like many others who had a suggestion for Renderosity I came to rue it. :P

MadYuri OK, thanks. I'll be visiting you later with two truck batteries, some crocodile clips, lengths of wire, clothes pegs, steel nail pins, a happy meal, two cans of mountain dew, a rubber bung, chains, shackles, tweezers, a thousand fleas and a popcicle stick. G Good idea, poorly implemented. Oh well, I guess that's one of the reasons we can browse with images "off". :)

My last comment would be to agree with the posters just above, that it's a big blow that shouldn't have been. But I would like one thing straightened out for me. I assumed that this being a Poser forum...that ppl would share their experiences with different venders, companies, sites, etc with the rest of us. Both good and bad. Things we could just consider as opinions, and meant to help us out. I'm obviously pitifully uninformed about the synergy between some of the personalities here, histories, etc.... so a lot of this goes right over my head...but... Was I wrong in assuming that we were free to give props to the ones we liked, and say what we found lacking in others without it turning into a big bruhaha?? Frankly, it's what I want and expect out of a discussion forum. BTW..no offense meant to anyone, and I ain't just bein' a wiseass...no underlying meaning...honest..:) Beav

I certainly will be renewing my subscription. Yes, sometimes the downloads are slow. So is most of the internet. I get a download or two going and go do something else; surf, eat, watch a little tv. My life certainly doesn't revolve around my downloads. And Marque, if you aren't going to worry about it, why in the name of anything did you post here?

Beav1 When someone asks for an opinion about something, yes they are entitled to an honest response from the members of the forum as well as the admin and staff. Whether that's good, bad or mediocre feedback. It's all relative and fair. If marque was to post in another thread that she's experienced some difficulty downloading from Poserworld in response to someone saying "is it worth joining" then I see no problem. That's her experience of the site. But, when the same comment is the motivator of multiple threads repeated over a short time when the last one is buried or ignored then one tends to get a little suspicious, especially as it hasn't been brought up in the sub site forums or directly with the people running the place. Bad form all round really. In essence though. People do ask for opinions, this forum is littered with people asking about pworld and many other things and getting feedback, both favourable and not so favourable. That's about it. I question the motives of someone who repeats themselves on a regular basis with criticism and complaint but not someone who gives an honest opinion in response to a question. Other than asking questions and getting feedback, how are you supposed to learn what's good and what's not? So far I have very few complaints about most of the places I visit. They all work very much the same way, sometimes slow, sometimes fast, sometimes not even there. I will almost always go after the people concerned if there's a problem, Rena will attest to that as I've chased her down in the past if I think something is wrong, same with Steve and many other people, but I very rarely take it to a public forum unless repeated attempts at private discussion with them have failed, though I confess I am known in some areas for long and critical posts that are generalised across the board on a variety of subjects. I hold no ill-will towards anyone in this or other threads. Ron I think knows that as I treat him the same everywhere I talk to him, with derision if I think he's being silly and with praise if I think he's doing well. I try to be fair across the board with people and treat everyone pretty much the same except a very select few who have IMO earned my contempt. Who am I to judge? Nobody except an opinionated forumite. But it's my opinion and I will hammer it down someone's throat. [smirk] Now, if you'll all excuse me, I have an appointment with MadYuri. :)

To use your anaology Ron, inappropriate though it may be. If I walk into a car dealership and state from the get go in the lot on a busy day "I'm not going to buy your cars because they really suck, they just don't go fast enough." I'd expect the guy to point me to another garage down the road and get me off the lot as fast as possible. That's real life Ron, not sucking up to everyone because they might have a buck to spend or because you feel the need to ingratiate yourself. If I walk into that same car lot and purchase a car, and find out it won't go faster than 25 mph, I go back to the car lot, get the manager in an office and bitch at him, but I sure as hell won't do it in his front lot on a busy day, and I don't bitch at the salesman in front of customers. If after a while I find that the guy can't repair the speed problem I'll either demand my money back, or, go to another car dealer who can fix the problem. But I don't bitch about it in his car lot on a busy day or at the salesman in front of his customers. If I find that the second car dealer can't fix the car either then I'll scream at the manufacturer because it's obviously their damn fault that the stupid car won't go. But I don't bitch at the first guy in his front lot on a busy day or at the salesman in front of his customers. So, there you go for real life Ron. My real life, not yours, not anyone elses. Same as your real life is yours, not mine, not anyone elses. But we all have different real lives don't we? As to your customer services comments. Well, I'll agree to disagree with you. It's been my experience with this that if you have a troublesome customer you do everything you possibly can to get them the heck out of the way before they upset other people. You don't slime up to them licking their ass, you deal with them firmly and politely if possible. If they're bitching and shouting and getting antsy in your face you deal with them calmly and try to get them to calm down, if they don't and carry on being a pain in the ass then you ask them to leave. But then, staff as well as customers get fair protection here in the UK and it is the right of any service personnel, staff member or customer service councellor to refuse to serve, talk to or even allow in the building an abusive customer. Yes, over here we can have the itinerant escorted out by security or even arrested. So, people tend to be polite in the main, and when they have a complaint they take it up with the management and follow procedure rather than screaming in a busy store in front of other customers. I won't address any of your other comments because quite frankly I have no desire to get into a bitch fest with you though if you really want the gloves off, it can be arranged. :)

Questor just brought up a good point .. Different areas of the country (and the world) have different ways of approaching customer service. My dad has a friend that is a jewelry dealer and he travels all over the country and one thing he said is this, well paraphrashed, :If you use the same approach all around the country you will get middling reactions, If I am really nice in New York they think I am trying to pull something over on them, if I treat people in the midwest the same way as I have to in the South they think I am trying to scam them as well. It is all a matter of location." Just a viewpoint since I doubt I will pop back into this thread.

"And I really fail to see how insulting a client is a imperative for good mental health :)"

Heh, you've obviously never worked in retail. :) Stand behind my counter just one week and you'll see what I see. :)
When I say if you get stepped on often enough to want to step back...I mean I've been stepped on often enough. Often enough to warrent my opinon of customers who walk through my door, leave messes for me to clean up (usually next to a half empty garbage can), are rude and inconsiderate and act like my business is public property and I their own personal servant expected to jump when they snap their fingers.

Oh yes....it's therapy alright. :)

Steve and Rena: You RULE!! Questor: You hit the nail on the head several times :) (and give Mad Yuri a few bruises for me too! LOL) As far as some other stuff... I'm in retail too and sometimes for the amount of aggravation a customer gives you, it's worth everything to say "There's the door" and mumble to yourself "Good riddance to bad rubbish!!" Sassy

Ahh, Owww...nooo...don't hurt me...

Well, I did work in retail in a rather large way. I managed a very large chain of stores from the States which were expanded into Canada. I was the Western Canada manager and as the chain was devoted entirely to direct sales on the floor to walk in customers PR and customer relations were very important to the success of the business. To call a customer a whiner because they are frustrated with your service whether it is your fault or not is definitely not a good idea. No matter how many people here may take the side of Steve and Rena they will lose a certain amount of business because of the responses given in this thread to both Marque and Ron. They have been accused of being trouble makers and out to create problems for Steve and Renas business etc. when to any person who would come in here ignorant of the site and what they offer ( and yes, I mean myself as I do not belong to their site and in fact have never been to it as of yet) when reading their posts would think they have a good reason to complain. Reading the responses to their posts from a lot of you I get the feeling (again because I don't know the site and I don't know most of you here other than through reading a few of your posts in various forums) that there is a certain amount of animosity on the behalf of some who are defending Rena and Steve towards Marque and Ron. This is not meant to either defend or persecute anyone here but to point out how things appear to a person reading these posts who has never been involved before the other day in anything in this particular forum (Poser) and the impression that person gets from reading all the posts above. Remember, one unhappy customer will cost a business more revenue than 50 happy customers. The reason being that people will definitely spend more time and effort to let others know their displeasure with a service or company than the 50 happy ones will to let people know of their satisfaction with the same company.

Hmmmm.... well ok.... if you promise not to make any more suggestions like that!! LOL

I'm 100% sure we will lose members over this thread, i'm also 100% sure we would no matter how we replied. Wasn't that the whole point of it??......Maybe folks will wonder why 2 members feel insulted yet the rest seem happy, most can and will think for themselves (not a dig at you there just a theory)..Steve

steveshanks "And threatened. " I think that was sarcasm...."

To be honest with you, dead honest, I couldn't tell.

steveshanks "but its perfectly ok to harm us and our buisness, seems like a double standard, especially in light of your final paragraph :o)...Steve"

Again, being honest nothing that person said about the site being slow is the issue. It's generally been the tone of the responses. A public complaint is a chance to win people over (not the complainer usually) or drive them away. You can bet potential customers ARE watching.

Besides, several people have mentioned that as a result of this thread they will be joining, so you came out ahead :)

pendarian "Personally, I recommend them. Perhaps you should speak with Rena, Steve or Allen before making a final decision. You've listened to and perhaps even spoken through IMs with various people...perhaps you should also with the PWFW folks. But then again, if you have no use for the products, don't subscribe."

If I had a specific question I absolutely would. Steve in particular seems like a helpful chap. However the reasons for my choice are complex, some having to do with the product itself and some with my opinions on the level of professionalism.

That being said, if I ever see something on PWFW that I absolutely need for a client I might subscribe if one of the vendors I currently use couldn't provide it for me... but I am extremely picky about the fit of the clothing I use so I tend to be very slow to add new vendors to my purchase list.

I always look at the update previews posted here, and I look at the renders with that clothing and I look at the free section at PWFW to keep tabs on it - but I still haven't seen anything that I want to have enough to subscribe, and I won't subscribe "just cause" for the other reasons.

That isn't to say they aren't great people - I don't know them, it's just a business decision.

FishNose "PWFW, as I understand it, consists of 2 people doing what they love, and do it well (and get better and better all the time, I may add), sharing it with memebers for a decent fee - and that's it."

And I think taken as that it is a fine, fine resource! I wish them the best and I am glad they are doing well... I just don't think it fits the needs of those in the professional arena as well.

beav1 "Was I wrong in assuming that we were free to give props to the ones we liked, and say what we found lacking in others without it turning into a big bruhaha?? Frankly, it's what I want and expect out of a discussion forum."

Umm... yes, you're wrong :) You can say a lot of good things, but you will find a distinct lack of discussion of things that are not so good. It tends to be taken personally and run afoul of politics because so many Poser vendors are one person shops.

Soulhuntre.. thanks for the smiles you've brought to my face! Your sense of humor accompanied by Poser clothing history ignorance is indeed unique! Bless you! :o) Rena

To steve... Drop it buddy.. doesnt take a genius but just a regular forum visitor to understand my motivation at contradicting certain people to this thread as well as the motivations of others Ive been to Poser since 1998.. the only people Ive ever exchanged verbal abutions with all these years, were Ron as the very first in the past few months and Marque in this very thread.. Ron has been around for a very short time.. but archives prove the long list of people hes had serious contradictions with already.. I dont know how long Marque is around.. but her list of complaint posts and contradictions with vendors, programs and services is also quite a long one Statistics speak for themselves.. A special thanks to Renderosity for the archives and database!

MadYuri said: Ahh, Owww...nooo...don't hurt me... ----- But, but... hurting you is soooo much fun and for those, those, those.... things! You deserve it. But, I promise to ease off on the torture if you promise not to make a suggestion like that again. :) ***** Soulhuntre said: Umm... yes, you're wrong :) You can say a lot of good things, but you will find a distinct lack of discussion of things that are not so good. It tends to be taken personally and run afoul of politics because so many Poser vendors are one person shops. ---- I disagree with the first sentence because there was a lot of threads here that did discuss bad things about products, but unfortunately the forum for this was deleted and no evidence can be found. Poser forum isn't as popular for complaints as "usually" anything that resembles a complaint gets moved over to another forum. However it is still possible to get honest opinions on a product, people who don't want to post into the forums for fear of retribution from vendors use Instant Messaging (IM) it can be just as effective and more private for voicing an opinion and carries a lot less risk of getting flamed for actually not liking something. I agree totally with the last sentence though.

renapd "Soulhuntre.. thanks for the smiles you've brought to my face! Your sense of humor accompanied by Poser clothing history ignorance is indeed unique! Bless you! :o)"

Well, by all means educate me ... can you clue me in on how "Poser clothing history" is in contradiction with something I said?

In looking at my posts, the only line that could possibly be the one your commenting on is this one...

soulhuntre "And I think taken as that it is a fine, fine resource! I wish them the best and I am glad they are doing well... I just don't think it fits the needs of those in the professional arena as well."

I am not sure how you managed to find reason to attack me from a line that has 3 positive comments in it, one of them wishing you luck. Is it because I don't find the fit of the clothing (what I see from the preview images) to be usable for the work I do? I certainly know others I have corresponded with who agree.

Nothing in my comment indicated that you don't have professional users, I am sure you do... but I doubt the match is as good for them as it is for the hobbyists. I just don't think the fit is there to be honest.

::shrugs:: If that is somehow in conflict with "Poser clothing history" (whatever that is) then I am all ears fro my education.

Personally, I think my post was extremely polite, wished you luck AND mentioned I think many people will benefit from your site. I am not really sure what I can do to keep you from being insulted and insulting except maybe not criticize or give my honest opinion at all...

But then, that might well be the point.

Ah well, not my issue. I am not a subscriber, I won't be one in the future and I will continue to give my opinion on the topic when asked. Once again, best of luck.

First of all..my comment was sincere, not an insult! I did laugh at that line! Honestly! :o) Why I found it so amuzing? There's no other way to respond to a comment aiming at steve that he's not a pro when it's common knowledge he's been one of the very first involved with the subject, if not the very first since Poser3 early days, who's taught so many others! :o) Does this clarify why your post sounded so amuzing to me? :o) Don't jump to conclusions that one wishes to insult you once he's just enjoying a few of your lines and says so! :o) Rena

To make this more precise! You can call ME an amateur, a lousy renderer, totally untalented, a bitch, a loud mouth..whatever you wish and I might not respond.. BUT to hint steve's work as non pro.. don't expect it to pass by with no comment or a thunder of laughter! :o) Rena

Well, both would be a fat lie... you and Steve are as pro as they come with a talent that is just awesome! And one of these days I can afford a sub, LOL!!!

"And I think taken as that it is a fine, fine resource! I wish them the best and I am glad they are doing well... I just don't think it fits the needs of those in the professional arena as well."... Oh come on Soulhuntre don't take me for an idiot, you compliment with one hand then insult with the other LOL, Renderosity, 3Dcommune and DAZ have no problem with the quality of our items, neither do the Atlanta braves baseball team or many other studios that use our stuff...so yet again we have someone insulting us based on zero knowledge, but thats ok we just have to smile and take it ;o)......Steve

oops :o) neither does most of our members :o) slap on the wrist there folks sorry :o).....Steve, who is not taking this thread serious anymore ;PPPPPPPPPPP

Talking of double standards.. that little devilish whimp inside me just keeps wondering.. "Hello moderators!!! Wake up!" VL grin How come my very own complaint post of last week, titled "I'm no sort of a cattle to put a tag on me" was immediately moved to the News and Contact forum & disappeared from newbies to read, and yet this one still hangs around here? VL mischievous grin Rena

LOL buddy! Glad to see we're feeling the very same! Mind reading again! LOL

This is pretty amazing. OK, I'll try one more time.

renapd "There's no other way to respond to a comment aiming at steve that he's not a pro when it's common knowledge he's been one of the very first involved with the subject, if not the very first since Poser3 early days, who's taught so many others!"

Funny, I didn't say Steve wasn't a "pro". Since clearly a large (I would hope) part of his income and job involve Poser then I would think he IS a pro :)

What I did say was that in my opinion (I am allowed to have them I think) the fit of much of the clothing simply isn't good enough to use for professional work. Now, clearly all of that is subjective - and I did mention that no doubt you have members who do use the clothing in a professional capacity.

I am allowed an opinion, at least I still think I am. It's hard to tell around here sometimes.

Short of telling you I think all the stuff on PWFW is the best thing ever I don't really know how I can be any nicer. I think it's great stuff for hobbyist use, and no doubt you have some pro's who use it too. From what I can see without joining it simply isn't up to the standards I need.

If that means I am firmly in the minority on how I need things to fit, that's OK too. That doesn't change my opinion.

Your happy with it, Steve is happy with it, your subscribers are happy with it - fine, great, cool - once again I wish you the best.

steveshanks "Oh come on Soulhuntre don't take me for an idiot, you compliment with one hand then insult with the other LOL"

I don't think you're an idiot, and I am completely sincere in both my praise and my critique. I hope it all goes great for you and I am sure your membership is by and large extremely happy. I gave you the compliments I could because when you deserve them then you deserve them and I am trying to make sure I comment ont he good AND the bad.

I was trying to be fair... and all it seems to bring me is insults.

On the other hand I will be honest. I don't think the stuff on PWFW is generally speaking stuff I could use. That's an opinion, and I am allowed it :)

I'm sorry your so insulted by all this, it certainly isn't intended personally. Maybe that is the problem... it seems that it is impossible to be honest about a product here without it being taken as a personal insult on the creator.

I am sure you work hard. I am sure the vast majority of your subscribers are happy. I don't think your the #1 modeler in the Poser community for clothing. I am sorry that insults you.

Now, if I am supposed to just stroke everyone and tell each and every single vendor that all their stuff is perfect and that there isn't any flaw in it at all then .... well, then toss me off the system because I simply won't lie.

Could I just say "I don't like the stuff, don't join!!" and leave it at that? Sure, if I wanted to be a jerk. But I was TRYING to say something positive as well. I suppose if your determined to be offended you can always find something.

As for the Braves and the other studios, great! Good for you! Best of luck to you. Maybe I am simply extremely picky... it's probable. Of course we are also pushing Poser really to the limits in what we do, doing tight close-ups and flybys rendered in Max and so on at HDTV resolutions... so it might be that our environment is extremely demanding ::shrugs:: don't know what to tell you. There are many products for sale here that simply don't hold up in our environment that lots of people seem overjoyed with.

Doesn't change my evaluation, the stuff on PWFW is good, many people like it but it doesn't look like it's good enough for what we do. Once again, an opinion I am allowed to hold and that I will share when appropriate.

If the only type of opinion that won't insult you is a glowing one, then I guess I'll never be anything but a pain in the ass from your POV.

Ron.. I serve under belt punches only to the ones who repeat themselves over and over and over again.. yes, that does make me blow up! :o) If I have fantasies or not about conspiracies behind my back, I also happen to have logs and emails that prove me otherwise but no, I don't plan to make the mistake some good friend of mine did once around this place to post them to prove me right! :o) If you read that thread carefully you'll notice that I've been harmed but have harmed myself NOBODY! ;o) I've jumped on you at he shirt thread simply because you had raised the same issue too many times in too many places and kept blaming me ignoring the fact so many others were using it successfuly and had told you so in the very first thread! Marque did the very same thing, repeating herself and ignoring previous replies to her original complaint! :o) Actually Ron, I think you know better than what you claim as to who I really am and if I know how to apologize.. you have email logs in your inbox I gather to proove that! So do I happen to have yours! :o) What I have to say is very simple but true! You can think of me whatever you wish Ron! Just because you're a PWFW member doesn't give you the right to shut me up as a member of this community whenever I speak up my honest opinion and no, I don't have to bow at whatever you say! And frankly.. I honestly don't give a dime about this thread as it's definately NOT serious anylonger and only makes me laugh at how pathetic we can be sometimes around this place! :o) So feel free to orate as much as you wish from this point on as I won't bother any further to reply or defend myself! :o) Have a wonderful evening tearing off my fleshes if you wish but not at my presence! :o) I'm planning to enjoy Poser instead of politics and silly threads tonight! :o) Enjoy yourselves any way you find suitable! :o) Rena

enough already why not take this into an Email flame war and spare the rest of us? will an admin please close this... sigh

Why, may I ask, do Steve and Rena not have the same right to get angry with someone who happens to be a customer? Why should a customer have more rights than the person behind the business?

Something I've had to tell people on occasion, "Have some consideration for my problems and I'll have consideration for yours".

No one should put up with insults and crap and deliberate attempts to undermine their business under the falshood that the "customer is always right" and ones opinion of what customer service should be.
Customer service does not mean being a doormat to the every selfish whim of a "customer".

It's called mutual respect. As a business owner, if I don't get it I'm not likely to give it, no matter how many people think I should be a doormat for them.

I applaud Steve and Rena for not taking this thread seriously anymore. It's beginning to sound like a last word contest.

Feel free to tell them what you wish Ron we all 3 live in free countries and i'll feel free to tell them my side of the story....Soulhuntre yes i'd rather you'd said "I don't like the stuff, don't join!!" coz the way your putting it its like your twisting what i say like "I don't think your the #1 modeler in the Poser community for clothing. I am sorry that insults you." good i'm glad, i never said or thought i was, i just thought it a little odd that you can express an opinion on our stuff yet you've never used any of it...thats a bit like me saying XXX cars are crap even though i've never driven one ;o).......Steve

steveshanks "i just thought it a little odd that you can express an opinion on our stuff yet you've never used any of it...thats a bit like me saying XXX cars are crap even though i've never driven one"

A fine point. It is possible I am wrong about it for that reason - but I don't think so. The only thing I have to go on are the free items and the renders of the updates that get put up here. I'll have to assume that the renders put up here to advertise the website and the product probably show what it looks like? All I can say is that it doesn't look like it is what I need or could use based on the promotional material you put out.

I am not sure how I can make a choice on a product if NOT by the promotional material from the company that makes and the discussions in forums like this. I would love to have the money to buy things that don't looks like they will suit my needs on the off chance that I am wrong and they do, but I don't have that money.

**steveshanks ** "Soulhuntre yes i'd rather you'd said "I don't like the stuff, don't join!!"

OK, but I think I'll still wind up expanding it a little to say "You might find it a good value, many people do. Unfortunately the products don't seem to be quite what I need to use... but out application is pretty demanding."

Which is basically what I do say.

Will someone PLEASE lock this thread so it can die a merciful death? All this friction can't be a good thing for the community here. :(

Sorry Ron, I've had to join the hundreds of other people on Renderosity that have requested multiple times an "Ignore Ronknights" button. However satisfying it would be to take you apart and deep fry the remains, a close and respected friend has asked that I don't and I will respect their request. For the simple reason that in your puritanical daydream you are unable to see anything beyond the tip of your nose and your own gripes. So as was said somewhere else today, quit yer griping. Kaibach: The reason admin will not close this thread is that it suits their purposes to see someone like Ron continually insult people that the admin here consider to be competition. This thread will remain here, unlocked, undeleted, untouched because their purpose is being served. Ronky is having his day at the soapbox and is insulting two people, and one in particular, that are highly respected in the communities and this is perfect for them, because if Ronky manages to get the combination right Rena might just pack up and leave, which would be perfect for them - oh dear, memories are short, she doesn't do things like that. Then they'd only have the very last in competition to deal with. RuntimeDNA and DAZ3D. Until of course, Curious Labs open their Poser store, then things will get somewhat entertaining. Eventually the rosity admin will have what they consider to be the Renderosity Utopia, a place where they have the controlling fraction of a large market with absolutely nobody going anywhere except their store to buy stuff. Unfortunately, things don't usually work that way, but it'd be a shame to spoil the surprise by telling them that. :) Kendra: I think the answer to that is simple. They're not part of the worship Ronky congregation. As they have not fallen on their faces at his feet to worship his "support" (note he completely disregards over a thousand other people who support them and also aren't worshipped) they must be very bad people. Just like all the other vendors, freestuff contributors and members here who aren't on the Honky Ronky bandwagon and subscribing to the "Hug a tree today" sermons. The desire for acceptance at any cost can sometimes be rather a strange one as the motivations for some actions are not always clear. Also, unbeknownst to the planet at large, these two enthusiastic contributors to the Poser user base are in fact Bill and Hillary Clinton and must act in accordance with certain accepted principles. Meaning they have to take all the abuse thrown at them with a broad smile and a thank you, later I guess Steve will have to have an intern bend over a desk to chop the end off a cigar. I guess in a twisted way you could say that certain people are giving Steve and Rena a "Lewinsky". LOL Anyway, I'm out of here as I have some things to attend to, including the construction of a Mr. Smiley voodoo doll and the consecration of some long and very sharp needles so I can torment the hateful things.

I think my comments have been taken out of context. I am not condoning or condemning anyone. Im not on anyone's side. I was only saying that you dont snap at a customer. Its easy to put someone in their place without snide comment or calling names. Occasionally your temper will get the best of you. Lord knows it has me at times,and later I wish I'd counted to 100 instead of ten before replying. Best way to keep your foot out of your mouth is to re-read what you type before pressing 'reply'. Im in the medical profession. This is a place where people come to you for help..but yet they expect you to fight them to help them. Ive seen some employees lose their temper and curse and ask why they came. Ive seen those same employees fired. I learned long ago, that you can easily make a comment such as "you dont have to be rude, you're refusing, I'll put it in the chart" or and the patient will either let you do it or soon either the doctor will discharge them for non-compliance or they will be declared incompetent and be restrained. Its no skin off my nose either way. I want to help, but if they want me to fight them..psshhhaaaa..I have better things to do. Im a lover not a fighter..lol and questor is right, this string wont be locked for the exact reasons he stated. Ive been thinking this for days, I'm just suprised someone actually said it. anyhow, the string title could have been phrased much less harshly, as could the 'whiner' response and the other things. Shoulda never been brought up here. Im sorry it did cause its just making bad impressions of people..that really arent deserved. BT

OK, as long as the thread won't be locked I'd like to request my "killfile ronknights" button. Questor, are they really going to be introduced? Geez a million people will be relieved. I want one like the little smileys but I'd like it personalized...I'd like a garbage can complete with flies hovering about s The question was rhetorical. Only trying to clear up the confusion. I've rewritten my response many times trying to make sure nobody would be confused. I was going to double space but got sick of myself at this point. g

Questor, who is making suggestions now? Believe me, you won't like the result if Rosity implements them. :P BTW can somebody beat me unconscious, this thread is getting boring.

ronknights want Man, I was away for some day and everyone seems to go mad here. I would have guessed that the thread ended shortly after my first comment. Here are my two cents: **************************************************** Poserworld has fantastic stuff for low prices. Most people have no problems with the downloads. **************************************************** I do not think that Marques post was appropriate. I certainly do not think that calling him a whiner was appropriate. But I would call me a fool to cancel my membership because of this. Rena & Steve: What both of you manage to do is marvelous. I respect the huge amount of work, which can easily be seen when it comes to the updates. Both of you work with a fully professional attitude. This thread should stop here, there is not much left to be said here. You surely will not loose me as a subscriber. I will support you in any way I can, just because your fantastic site deserves it. Anyone who want to cancel his membership because of anything told here may do so. I, for myself, would not even think about it seriously. Now let us hack each other elsewhere, will we?

Wow, this has gotten to be one long thread which mysteriously enough hasn't been moved yet :) While I'm not one to generally join the usual ruckus (too busy munching on cashew nuts and watching the mudslinging) when I see such blatant and insistent attempts at provoking reactions from people I consider friends I have to speak! Marque, I don't know if you're still reading this thread or not, I don't know you, but excuse me if I'm biased concerning this matter as I can recall a time not too far away when Anton Kisiel was made the target of your accusations and complaints to the point where the poor guy had to ask you to stop buying his stuff! Seems to me you're quick to jump the gun at the slightest thing that goes wrong for you when everyone else doesn't see it quite that way. Ronknights, I read other forums here too so please don't go dragging past threads or you'll probably open up a can of worms. Seems to me that you've had your share up to the point where you were asked by another vedor (Dendras) to stop harassing him. As I recall you even made another account to continue attacks in a certain thread. I can't for the life of me see why you've felt you had to make this your own little crusade when you don't have the same problem with the downloads. Anything else could have been taken to the private PWFW forum which is intended for the subscribers. Unlike you though, I won't be posting threads that portray you ... let's say in a bad light only because as an educator I still care to set the good example. I hope any newbies still reading this thread see it for what it really is and not let it stop them from making a free choice of their own whether to join or not based on sample freebies and previews. I'm willing to bet though that they won't regret it :)

"and questor is right, this string wont be locked for the exact reasons he stated. Ive been thinking this for days, I'm just suprised someone actually said it. " Someone might as well have said it BT - I'm sure more than a few people were thinking it. ;] I'ma gonna second Quest on the "ignore this user" button. This board definately needs a Killfile.

Want me to liven it up with a pic of a nude Vicki in the temple with a helmet? :)

MadYuri said: Questor, who is making suggestions now? Believe me, you won't like the result if Rosity implements them. :P ---- Erm, [innocent expression] It wasn't a suggestion it was a, err, erm... concept idea, that's it. Yeah. :) OOps. :) **** and then he said some more: BTW can somebody beat me unconscious, this thread is getting boring. I can do that. No problem. :) [picks up baseball bat and three glass bottles.] Oh Yuri... Yuuurrriiii, come out to playaayyy...

Want me to liven it up with a pic of a nude Vicki in the temple with a helmet? :)