I agree with the others about getting rid of the Renda thing, wiping it off the books, along with the subcontractor(s). Perhaps Daz will also agree to having the Renda figure pulled once they realize nobody will buy it or use it, hence there will be no possibility of any kind of compensatory income from it.

"Additionally, while I have absolutely nothing against 3rd party characters, historically these have not done well, even with a LARGE amount of backing from heavy hitting merchants. Again I ask, why did you think this would be different?" hisminky, um, er, well, uh, DAZ figures are 3rd party figures, and, um, well, I'd like to think they did fairly well. "At the very least they were using YOU to market their product, counting on YOUR customers that YOU worked hard to acquire, so that their product would sell." Absolutely. All the posts about her dysfunctions were, ultimately, not bad things. They served a simple purpose, which was to make more people aware of her. The more posts people made, here and at different sites, the more exposure she got. THe more exposure she gets, the more "buzz" is created. It doesn't matter if the exposure is created by a bad thing or not. If the issues with her had been anything but the jcm and Eula probs, this figure might have had a rocky start, but would have gone one to do rather well. For the simple and single reason that she had a hell of a lot of people talking about her. "...what is the next step for the merchants who have taken a hard hit? They have to somehow repair their relationship with their customers. " Hardest hit I've seen is Blackhearted -- and a large chunk of that is his own fault for being vocal. He, however, will recover reputation wise fairly easily from his association with Renda. He does good work. More of it will do just fine. The RTE coding of the figure is an error to do. Pull her, and then do the rigging properly. For cryin out loud, Clint's on the team -- and while he may not be the greatest thing since bread mold, he's got the ability to rig her himself if he would put himself to the task. Take the time to do her properly -- if that's 3 weks, fine, if its 3 years, just as fine. At this point, all you have to do is fix the damned cr2. Without opening V3 to do so. So do it. oh, and mahna mahna.

This isn't happening right. Clint is supposed to announce his resignation, along with some other high up mods, then Tim is supposed to announce his resignation, then Clint is supposed to say okay, if Tim resigns he'll come back. Then Clint is supposed to resign anyway. Then merchants are supposed to start pulling their stores in droves. THen DAZ is supposed to buy the site for 20 grand. Then two months later Tim is supposed to come backand say he's sorry, and it was all because he was on drugs. THAT's how this is supposed to happen. Jesus. Do you guys always have to be pointed at PoserPros to know how to get things right?

Lol @ Dodger. Well, it is 3 months early for the usual upheaval, give it time. :)

.

..

I can honestly say that when Renda was initially released I was surprised at how fast she was done, learning about her creation back in April I was VERY surprised to hear that she was released only two months later. As a person who has worked on a completely ORIGINAL figure, I can tell you that a two month development time for anyones first go of it is unheard of and certainly is an omen for disaster. Victoria and Michael by DAZ (all versions) took months and months worth of work by a nice sized staff. Dina V by DSI took a little over nine to twelve months to complete from scratch. Max by Anton has taken several years of development and work by Anton ALONE to make that figure what it is today. Natalia by Dcort took a good while before she was released, dont know the actual time limit, but knowing Dan and the perfectionist that he can be from working on Dina, I am sure it took a good while for her figure before release as well. I know of another figure that will be coming out in the near future that has been in development for almost a year now My point is, there is absolutely no way that a two month turn around for a figure is sufficient to completely test it, work out the bugs, assign Joint Parameters without it exploding in your face Hence the reason why I didnt buy Renda upon her release and for sure wont be now. What I have seen of her release is what seems to be the standard practices of many companies today. Release the product in less than perfect format, capitalize on it at the expense of your customers and slowly work on it and release updates (Poser 5 for example). This sort of thinking is what is going to kill this Community and any business for the merchants in it. Frustrating your customers and pushing out crap product is NOT A GOOD THING!! Now many of the merchants here and elsewhere are feeling like theyve been screwed and for all intents and purposes they have been. They invested their time and effort in the hopes of a return that just wont come. And that sour taste is going to be there when others come along with a new figure and looking to get support for it and because of that, they will suffer for the idiocy that has occurred here. My suggestion to you, remove Renda. Compensate the merchants who have worked on the project and created product for an unusable character. Pay them not as brokers but as work for hire employees for their time and hard work and THEN get out of the publishing business, because you obviously have very little regard for your customer base by selling her as screwed up as she was and that is going to affect any future products, sales or support towards any other product that you had in mind in short, you killed your publishing business. Stick to running a website/brokerage store while you may not do that perfectly, you arent blatantly taking money from your customers and members at such a personal risk to yourself by selling unfinished product that was created in bad faith. My next suggestion would be that you listen to your staff and the merchants, because if you had, you wouldve avoided a good portion of your current headache and probably wouldve been more successful. Nuff said by me. Jack

"This isn't happening right. Clint is supposed to announce his resignation, along with some other high up mods, then Tim is supposed to announce his resignation, then Clint is supposed to say okay, if Tim resigns he'll come back. Then Clint is supposed to resign anyway. Then merchants are supposed to start pulling their stores in droves. THen DAZ is supposed to buy the site for 20 grand. Then two months later Tim is supposed to come backand say he's sorry, and it was all because he was on drugs. THAT's how this is supposed to happen. Jesus. Do you guys always have to be pointed at PoserPros to know how to get things right? " Larry The Cable Guy Voice Now thats funny,...I don't care who ya are.

Interesting. Has the zeal for marketing, making the quick buck, cashing in on today's force-fed, Hot Item undermined the diligence on the part of the Marketplace product approvers?

I haven't waded in on any of the various threads going on at the moment about Renda, but I for one will be deleting her from my hardrive. Lord knows she is definitely damaged goods and no amount of backpeddling is going to change that. The concept was good...the realization was not so good, IMHO :-( I must admit I was never all that impressed with her from the beginning....she's a worse fiasco than the infamous Judy! But at least Judy came with the content...you didn't have to pay beaucoup bucks for her. I know...I am a itty bitty fish in a great big pond...but we itty bitty's have opinions, too :-)

ROFLMAO@Dodger!

someone to actually use renda with all her faults and make some scene with her being "tainted goods" in some dark alleyway somewhere trying to score a trick with the Mike character, or even with her dumped in the trashbin or somesuch.... just for the laugh!... :+P cheers Sean

When will people learn? In the past few months, we've had copyright problems with products from 3D Commune, PoserPros, and now Renderosity. Do you want to keep getting a customer's money? Get it right the first time.

How do you know it was Dodger that posted that? Could have been any of us. Me, for instance. "As a person who has worked on a completely ORIGINAL figure, I can tell you that a two month development time for anyones first go of it is unheard of and certainly is an omen for disaster." Not necessarily, JDK. We could do it. THe mesh would take about a month to finalise, and then the morph set and some starter clothing. Half the mesh is the UVMapping. It's all doable. But it would have to be done by people who know what they are doing and actually develop content hardcore, not people who sell it for others and farm it out to anyone who comes along.

Why is Renda still in the store being sold to unsuspecting people? Why has the read-me not changed indicating you will now need RTE-ENcoding. Not good at all >:(.

Oh, the next time you all do this...please don't create an online person with the models name for the sole use of promoting her/him...That is lamest thing I've seen in a long time. Thank God I have good eyes(saw immediately she was severely deformed)...at least good enough not to be sucked into this debacle.

Message edited on: 06/29/2005 20:05

I've read this announcement a couple of times, and come back to this thread several times, and all I can do is shake my head and sigh. I have lots I could say, but I think it'd be mostly pointless, and many others in this thread have already expressed my own sentiments about testing prior to release and actually listening to the feedback of your merchants. bonni

"Not necessarily, JDK. We could do it. THe mesh would take about a month to finalise, and then the morph set and some starter clothing. Half the mesh is the UVMapping. It's all doable. But it would have to be done by people who know what they are doing and actually develop content hardcore, not people who sell it for others and farm it out to anyone who comes along." Well.....You SOUND an aweful lot like Dodger. :-)

All of this mess underscores what people forget about this entire marketplace (Renderosity, Poserpros, etc.)...that many of these sites are owned and run by people who aren't trained to be professional business operators. Many of them have accidentally stumbled into this relatively young source of revenue and they haven't got any education in how to properly run a business or deal with customers. It's a home-based hobby gone wild. I especially felt this during the whole Poserpros fiasco. Any one posting from the beleaguered Mehndi confirmed how unprofessional and amateurish she was in handling the unfortunate affair. Therefore, we should always exercise an attitude of "buyer beware" when dealing with anything having to do with the Poser aftermarket. Renderosity isn't operated by Harvard Business School geniuses, despite their fancy online storefront and pretty masthead. But, that said, it IS part of the charm of this whole Poser aftermarket that it's run by reg'lar folks, so you have to take the good with the bad. For every Renderosity Renda blunder (or even the 3D Commune "Sarah" hiccup, etc.) there's a PhilC & Kamilche with their Wardrobe Wizard success. I say that we quit pontificating and being indignant, slap Renda and the 'osity on the wrists for bad behavior, consider the deed done and keep stumbling forward. Life's too short. -jjsemp

they haven't got any education in how to properly run a business or deal with customers. You don't need a degree to realize that it's just plain good business practice to release a quality product, or to make sure things work right before you sell them. >> For every Renderosity Renda blunder (or even the 3D Commune "Sarah" hiccup, etc.) there's a PhilC & Kamilche with their Wardrobe Wizard success. True, very true, which is why I feel this won't affect all Poser merchants. It may however make it harder for new merchants to break into the market. Products will have to stand out more to be recognized. And that means creating content that is original and innovative, instead of more of the same.

You don't need a degree to realize that it's just plain good business practice to release a quality product, or to make sure things work right before you sell them.<< No, but it helps. A little education in HOW to run a business properly is a good thing - not always necessary, but good. I think education and training are highly undervalued in today's push button society. But I hold out hope that it will make a strong comeback as things continue to deteriorate. Believe it or not, it really DOES make a difference. -jjsemp

Apologies ... I do realize that you learn a lot about running a business in school (didn't mean to dis the need for a degree); however in this instance a common-sense decision was the way to go. 8-)

" All of this mess underscores what people forget about this entire marketplace (Renderosity, Poserpros, etc.)...that many of these sites are owned and run by people who aren't trained to be professional business operators. Many of them have accidentally stumbled into this relatively young source of revenue and they haven't got any education in how to properly run a business or deal with customers. It's a home-based hobby gone wild. I especially felt this during the whole Poserpros fiasco. Any one posting from the beleaguered Mehndi confirmed how unprofessional and amateurish she was in handling the unfortunate affair."

Totally true.

Message edited on: 06/29/2005 20:45

...which is why I feel this won't affect all Poser merchants Going a step further, I don't feel it will affect much of anything, least of all Marketplace sales. It may sound obnoxious of me, but I bet the vast majority of poeple who purchase models, textures, whatever, here don't really care one way or other, so long as they have that receipt showing where they bought it, in good faith. Proof there's someone to point the finger at, if need be. Then again, I bet alot aren't even concerned about that.

"Products will have to stand out more to be recognized. And that means creatng content that is original and innovative, instead of more of the same." Now if THAT is the result of this nasty episode I'll be very happy. A store with fewer items, but all of them high quality and non-redundant, I'd call that a definite improvement.

Yup, same here. It's something whose time has come, I think, eh?

they haven't got any education in how to properly run a business or deal with customers. The exception to that is the Renderosity is RUN by a COMPANY and owned by a successful corporate business man who owns a company outside of this website and retains a fulltime attorney. He is NOT inexperienced to the ways of business or conducting business, he is very intelligent and skilled. So that excuse, if it could or should be one, doesn't apply here. If you are going to run a website that sells product to the public, home-based hobby or not, it is STILL a business and should be ran and maintained as such. Inaction or ignorance isn't an excuse to sell bad product, harm the reputation of others working on that product, or take money from customers for half finished product. And if you think it is okay to do that, then you deserve to be treated like sheep and fleeced. Jack

XFX3D >>"Not necessarily, JDK. We could do it. THe mesh would take about a month to finalise, and then the morph set and some starter clothing. Half the mesh is the UVMapping. It's all doable. But it would have to be done by people who know what they are doing and actually develop content hardcore, not people who sell it for others and farm it out to anyone who comes along." If you say so, I guess we will see in the near future won't we? ScottA >>Well.....You SOUND an aweful lot like Dodger. :-) I agree and if so, then my above comment should hold some bearing... Jack

0_0 Jack yer scarin me

I just wanted to say that everyone who had the chance to work with Clint, like I did, is 100% sure that he and Renderosity have nothing to do with the infringement. Their only fault was to trust a person (or a team of persons) who obviously did not deserve their trust. I just wanted to say this publicly because I think that a person like Clint deserves it. Orio P.S. I would like that the identities of the infringers are made public, I think it would be fair to everyone.

Orio, I agree that Clint and the 'sity didn't intentionally release a product that has such obvious copyright problems. They did release and continue to sell a new figure with inherent problems that as far as know haven't been fixed. Problems they knew about before it's release. Ultimate responsibility for her release and sale go to the owners of Bondware. The 'sity and RPublishing are divisions of Bondware. There were threads pointing out the problems with Renda before the copyright issue became apparent. I'm glad the 'sity has decided to offer a full refund to those who bought Renda. It's nice of Tim to offer an apology. However, continuing to sell a flawed figure on top of the copyright issues raises issues here. Quality control on the 'sity's own figure seems to be lacking, and that can reflect on every other product in the store. Frankly, I think it'd be a bad choice to spend money an an encoded figure that has known problems. I think it's bad business sense not to just refund the money to everyone and pull the figure. BTW, there is no notice in the Product Showcase thread announcing Renda about it being RTE Encoded. Renda's product page doesn't mention it. I know there hasn't been enough time to fix the page, but there should be something posted by the 'sity in the PS thread. Also, I think the product should be at least temporarally pulled until the new RTE version is available, and the product page is updated to reflect this. There are people who don't read the forums who do buy here, and they don't know they're purchasing a product with known problems.

Actually just to clearify something Jack said, Apollo took 6 months to do. I started it late October 2003, I put it down and moved, relaxed for a year etc. I kept track and it added up to about 6 months for me. 1/2 the time was in test,experiments and tweaks. Not that that matters or is relevant. Just a factoid.

The exception to that is the Renderosity is RUN by a COMPANY and owned by a successful corporate business man who owns a company outside of this website and retains a fulltime attorney.<< Just because an entity calls itself a "company" doesn't mean that the many people who work there know what they are doing. As for the owner (I assume you mean of Bondware), I doubt that he's actively involved in every aspect of the day-to-day operations of Renderosity. >>He is NOT inexperienced to the ways of business or conducting business, he is very intelligent and skilled. So that excuse, if it could or should be one, doesn't apply here.<< If you read my post, I never indicated that inexperience was an "excuse." Just something for us buyers to be wary of. >>If you are going to run a website that sells product to the public, home-based hobby or not, it is STILL a business and should be ran and maintained as such.<< I never said otherwise. >>Inaction or ignorance isn't an excuse to sell bad product, harm the reputation of others working on that product, or take money from customers for half finished product.<< I never said otherwise. >>And if you think it is okay to do that, then you deserve to be treated like sheep and fleeced.<< I never said...oh, never mind. You seem to be having too much fun for me to stop you. But I will admit that I don't think that these periodic upheavals in the world of Poserdom are the "major global disasters" that some people take them as being. I seem to recall SOME people in this forum getting all worked up about Poser 5 upon its release. It was, as I recall, the end of the world, a blasphemy against nature, and the root of all evil and representative of the dark side of the Force. Now, today, many people are CLINGING to their copies of Poser 5, deathly afraid of abandoning them in favor of Poser 6. You really DO have to keep things in perspective and let things work themselves out, which is all I AM saying. -jjsemp

Tis a Very sad thing when this Happens... Maybe more websites should encourage pre-finished Pics that show a Characters Building thru the different stages of its Creation...

"Maybe more websites should encourage pre-finished Pics that show a Characters Building thru the different stages of its Creation... " That would blow any possibility of a big, hyped release and allow competitors to plan counter-moves. But then, could that be any worse than this scenario? When I first saw Renda I thought she was flawed. And expensive. I didn't realise the was a flawed expensive copy of V3. And now she's a flawed expensive copy of V3 with a tarnished reputation. That's not an ideal position. I think her short life is over, same goes for any add-ons for her.

Actually just to clearify something Jack said, Apollo >>took 6 months to do. >>I started it late October 2003, I put it down and moved, >>relaxed for a year etc. I kept track and it added up to >>about 6 months for me. 1/2 the time was in >>test,experiments and tweaks. >>Not that that matters or is relevant. Just a factoid. Hey Anton, I know that between your old job and working at DAZ that you were kept quite busy to really work on Apollo as much as you would've like too. Please understand, that I wasn't speaking ill of your abilities, because I wasn't. I was just trying to point out that there is a lot of work that goes into making a figure which you've verified in regard to your own figure... it just isn't a two month process from start to finish... there is a lot of work involved. Jack

"RTF encoding spells the death of a product." (Blackhearted).

Speaking as a pure consumer, not a producer, of marketplace items, I have to say: I don't agree with this statement. For example: Dodger's Aeon figures are all RTEncoded, but I have been more than happy to pay the prices to acquire them, because they add functionality beyond what I already own. They increase the usefulness of the Unimesh figures they are based on.

From everything I have seen, this is not true of Renda - Renda appears to be nothing more than a V3 clone, and I haven't seen anything that Renda can do better than V3, so I have no interest in paying for Renda, whether she's RTEncoded or not. While some segment of the potential market might indeed be frightened off by RTEncoding, I'm skeptical that this potential segment is larger than the potential market segment that avoids Renda simply because there's nothing that Renda does that can't also be done with V3 or other figures we already own, for free in many cases. In other words, forget the RTEncoding: What do I actually gain by purchasing Renda?

Jack, hehe I know. hehe. I got what you meant. Figures are alot of work. I have seen too may rip offs, copies and skinjobs over the years. I have often thought of doing a tutorial on how people rip off figures so everyone knows what to look for. Problem is that the people who cheat think they are being clever and don't realize how easy it is to see what they did andhow they did it. This renda issue is so very very very important. It establishes copyright beyond mesh. It represents that even when using an original mesh, copyright into design can be violated. There are very few who know all the subtlies of figure making. To people who aren't into modelling, rigging, and 3d on a daily basis, all figures tend to look alike. I am always sympathetic to inncoent people dragged down by those who have misled them. And I have always been sympathetic to people who have been ripped off. I'll be honest in that I am very worried that now that Apollo is released, and after 7 years of the same figure design, I am about to be ripped off in the next generation of figures. I would like to think it isn't going to happen, and time will tell if the their next generation becomes more Maximus than Millenium. I certainly remember Eve. She was an original concept. Now we use that concept every day in our figures. I am sorry but I still see no difference between someone reverse-engineering V3 and someone reverse engineering Poser. I don't think either one is right. Or what then can be justified in the name of business and making $$$. I have often wondered if we were manipulated years ago regarding the P5 Eula at PoserPros. I feel it might have done it to for unrestricted access to the file formats. Funny word "Eula" is. Original mesh or original code, a skin job is a skin job. Design is a hard thing to protect. Like religion, people seem to pick and choose what rules apply to them oppose to others.

Jack D. Kammerer: Who says that there is too much work? It doesn't take long at all. Take the V3 Mesh into MAYA or 3DS MAX. Start modeling your character over it's mesh with a little difference, but following its verts. Then group it over V3's groups. Then take V3's *.cr2 and use on it. How hard can it be? If it takes more than 2 days you must never have even tried to model it at the first place. Because it is very simple. Try it and you will see. :). Now I never said a word about this entire issue. But I will like to say it now. Clint or any Admin will never violate copyrights. I am very sure that they never new about the copyrigth issues. How ever they were wron about releasing this product with know problems and the rush. However, as far as I know Clint, I don not think that neither Clint or the other admins were the people who decided on it's release date. I think there was a higher power telling them to release it. Anyways, I just wanted to tell what I think. Best regards, Umut B. Aydin

jjsemp, Forgive me, I wasn't directing my post and comments towards you in particular, I was merely replying collectively in regard to some of the Community's attitude around that particular subject. Many times now (situation with Mehndi immediately comes to mind, as well as, this one does) where some of the members try to defend the owners of websites such as this one by saying things like: "Well they aren't professional business people, so cut them some slack... etc." What I was trying to do was state my opinion in regard to comments like those, because I seriously believe that once the owners of a website decide to conduct "business" where money is exchanged for product or work... then they should be considered as a business and if those individuals have a lack of regard for their customers or don't know how to run a business, then they really shouldn't be IN business. Sure it is fine to excuse some mistakes made, but there are some mistakes that should be intolerable and in instances like this one or the one involving Mehndi, well, damn those should be pretty hard to overlook or forgive and forget. Now, I don't know how it is for anyone else here, but I am lucky to have what little money I happen to have and darn lucky if I have a little extra to spend now and then. My money is important to me and if I am going to spend that money on something, I darn sure want to be assured that it is worth that money I spent... and if it isn't, I am going to question why it isn't, not make excuses for the individuals who sold that crap to me. No offense, but I have to wonder as a customer here (which I am, as many of the merchants here can attest too) if Renda could be passed and put into the Online Store with the glaring flaws that she had and she was supposed to be a name brand, flagship product for the company and individuals who own this website... well, god, just what sort of real testing is being done here in the online store for customer quality assurance in products that aren't directly related to the reputation of the owners here? And if Im off base then my next question would be... WHY wasn't Renda held to the same standards of quality as opposed to any other product that goes into the online store? Maybe it's just me and the fact that I consider myself lucky to have what little money I do have to spend and the fact that I can't spend it frivolously, means that it is going to bother me when I've felt that that money has been wasted. /shrug To forgive I can do, sure, but to forget would be to give up an experience... one that I really wouldn't care to go through or relive again if I can help it. Jack

"well, god, just what sort of real testing is being done here in the online store for customer quality assurance in products that aren't directly related to the reputation of the owners here?"

They check everything from vert 1 to vert 11000. Trust me, I am a merchant here. If they did the same testing which they do to our products, RENDA would have never been released. I just wanted to inform you, nothing else.

Best regards,
Umut B. Aydin ---Edited for spelling mistakes---

Message edited on: 06/30/2005 04:39

I agree Anton and I even remember you stating those same concerns to me many years ago when you first told me that you were working on Apollo. :o) As for manipulated... I think that is a concern and a topic that will probably need some attention in the near future and in a thread of its own. I certainly think that there needs to be some way in which to educate the Community for things in which to look for. Not just for model makers, but also for people who are interested in purchasing products to avoid becoming innocent victims. In just this year alone, with my very limited activity in the Poser Community, I can think of five instances where customers have been screwed because of situations like this one, because they've (the products) made it past store testers and sold... so, yes, something definately needs to be done to prevent this from continuing to happen. Jack

If they did the same testing which they do to our >>products, RENDA would have never been released. I just >>wanted to inform you, nothing else. Understood :o) So the next thing people and the other merchants here should be asking is why wasn't she held to the same standards of testing?? Jack

I haven't experimented her yet, so I don't know anything, pnglib is killing me!. Anyway, one time there, one time here, one time elsewhere and so on......

"It establishes copyright beyond mesh. It represents that even when using an original mesh, copyright into design can be violated." Hmm, DAZ sells Victoria2/P4 and Stephanie/P4, very different and all original meshes but both morphed into Posettes exact body shape and using her (Or ate least VERY similar) JPs to make them able to wear Posettes clothes. Sooooo, isnt DAZ by selling these meshes violating E-frontiers copyright the same way that Renda violated DAZ copyright ? (Even though I dont doubt that none of the DAZ modellers took any shortcut by creating the P4 versions) Just curious, but IS there a legal way at all to design a (new) mesh that can wear V3s clothing ? stahlratte

It's not quite the same. DAZ (or the company they used to be part of) created the P4 figures, and I believe they still own the rights. So they can rip off their own work all their want. :)

I think the only way to design a new mesh that can wear V3's clothing is to get DAZ's permission and/or RTEncode the mesh.

I think Renda will not recover from this, and sadly has hit the 10 merchants who supported the new figure quite badly. I agree with others that Renda should be consigned to the bin and a new figure created, otherwise i don't think anyone is going to take any other Rosity figures seriously, I know i wont buy into any Rosity figures without seeing public reaction in future, unless remove renda.

"Just curious, but IS there a legal way at all to design a (new) mesh that can wear V3s clothing" You know I think there is... and it won't violate anyones copyright as that no V3 joints or topography would be required for it to work. Would be as harmless as Dynamics and clothing convertors. I need to do some experiments.. If it works I'll try to incorporate it into Venus.

(This man never ceases to amaze me! LOL)

Tim, your statement was right and proper. Thank you for being upfront. My concerns about the model itself are something outside this thread, therefore, no other comment.