i thought there was a forum for off topic but couldn't find it.
anyone else with me on this?

congrats sulu and california!

For now.  Too bad that this is such a derisive issue with respect to religious fervor and, sorry, idiocy.  Um, I hate to tell the Jesus nutters but this is SECULAR law and marriage.  Get the f*** out of my government, please.  Thank you.  Makes me wish we could expedite their meeting with their god (that doesn't exist). ;)

Quote - For now.  Too bad that this is such a derisive issue with respect to religious fervor and, sorry, idiocy.  Um, I hate to tell the Jesus nutters but this is SECULAR law and marriage.  Get the f*** out of my government, please.  Thank you.  Makes me wish we could expedite their meeting with their god (that doesn't exist). ;)

While I somewhat share the sentiment, it's just this kind of public negativity that will get the thread locked. I've already been put on notice at DAZ that the thread I made would be locked if people heated it up with stuff like this.

Really sad that something I see as something to celebrate dreges up this kind of hostility from both sides.

Good for you Sulu and many happy returns! Now where can I find a husband?

A friend of mine said this on another forum, so I'm going to borrow it because she said it so eloquently.

Quote - No matter how against it you are for religious or moral reasons, it does not affect you, so continue to oppose it all you want, but don't stop loving, committed people for being who they are and having the same rights as everyone else.

Being gay or straight isn't a choice - it's just who people are.

With that said, I'm glad to see that some of the US states are stepping into the 21st Century! What goes on between consenting adults is their own business and they should have the right to marry whomever they wish.

If Jim and John down the hall from me get married, it's of no consequence to me. It doesn't affect my life at all, so why should I feel angry or upset that they want to marry one another because they are both men?

In answer to the original posting, no I'm not with you on this.

I hope people take the effort to see the big picture and calculate the ripple effect of their decisions.

If it's acceptance you want, you can count me out.

These kinds of threads are interesting and frustrating at the same time because we learn the lesser-known views of our fellow members - and sometimes end up disappointed in what we discover, as I was after reading this thread.   :|

As for me, I'm for logic, science, and reason - interpret that as you will.

SnowS

Quote - > Quote - For now.  Too bad that this is such a derisive issue with respect to religious fervor and, sorry, idiocy.  Um, I hate to tell the Jesus nutters but this is SECULAR law and marriage.  Get the f*** out of my government, please.  Thank you.  Makes me wish we could expedite their meeting with their god (that doesn't exist). ;)

While I somewhat share the sentiment, it's just this kind of public negativity that will get the thread locked. I've already been put on notice at DAZ that the thread I made would be locked if people heated it up with stuff like this.

Really sad that something I see as something to celebrate dreges up this kind of hostility from both sides.

Good for you Sulu and many happy returns! Now where can I find a husband?

But it has to be said and defended.  I already saw the trucks and signs at the SF city hall on the other side.  Rev. Phelps will show up soon enough for certain.  And, you know, it's nice that we should be celebratory - but don't forget Matt and other countless, nameless people harassed, beaten, and murdered out of stupidity and fear with little repercussion.

Congratulations on the secular court decision to allow secular marriages to gay couples.  But the opposition is great.  We are far from the 21st century.

Quote - These kinds of threads are interesting and frustrating at the same time because we learn the lesser-known views of our fellow members - and sometimes end up disappointed in what we discover, as I was after reading this thread.   :|

As for me, I'm for logic, science, and reason - interpret that as you will.

SnowS

Yeah, there's no shortage of people willing to piss on your wheaties when it comes to this.

Quote - These kinds of threads are interesting and frustrating at the same time because we learn the lesser-known views of our fellow members - and sometimes end up disappointed in what we discover, as I was after reading this thread.   :|

As for me, I'm for logic, science, and reason - interpret that as you will.

SnowS

Same here.  I'm a gay atheistic humanitarian critical thinker here.  What would Jesus do? (the new cliche)  Well, Jesus, according to his supposed words, would embrace everyone who did not harm or deceive others (quoting "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" ring any bells).  It is sad that the meaning of the message is lost in the body of the message (and Paul didn't help much).  I'm not religious any more but that doesn't mean that I can't appreciate quality morals of life for which to strive, especially where they concern social conduct.  One of those that I hold dearly is that people should be allowed to do whatever they like as long as it does no harm to others.  Plenty of religious folk could use a dose of that.

I eagerly await legistlative efforts that will allow a male to give birth and a female to become a world champion boxer. Equality in all things! Accept or die! Maybe I don't appreciate the distinction between "civil unions" and marriage. Is marriage really a step up? Why? Anyway, it would good for the economy. Think of the money the lawyers will make in all the new divorice settlements. (Oh no, I've participated in one of those dreaded AM radio talk threads in the Poser forum…)

Quote - I eagerly await legistlative efforts that will allow a male to give birth and a female to become a world champion boxer. Equality in all things! Accept or die!

Exactly (sort of).  There are distinctions between male and female anatomy in general.  But then there are distinctions in individual anatomy.  If someone wants to do something they can't, at least let them try.  If they suck, sorry, do something else.  If they exceed, support them with every fiber.  And that doesn't even address the glass ceiling put in place due to male-dominated society (and white caucasian rich boy dominated society).  Name me one president who wasn't a caucasian male.  There has not been one in 230 years.  Maybe we'll get one soon!

Quote - Maybe I don't appreciate the distinction between "civil unions" and marriage. Is marriage really a step up? Why? Anyway, it would good for the economy. Think of the money the lawyers will make in all the new divorice settlements. (Oh no, I've participated in one of those dreaded AM radio talk threads in the Poser forum…)

Yes (on divorce)! ;)  The distinction between 'civil union' and 'civil marriage' is a matter of familial domain and legal recourse.  In a civil union, there are some benefits such as medical coverage and shared ownership rights.  But this isn't strong enough legally to prevent the family of the deceased member from claiming rights to the possessions thereof.   So, if two people are in a civil union and they generally own their house, cars, and other belongings, it is usually decided in favor of the deceased's family that anything in his/her name now belongs to the deceased's family wherein the partner (of 1 year or 50 years) is left with only what they can demonstrably show as 'theirs'.  This has happened many times.  Marriage constitutes a familial domain which grants the 'spouse' rights to the mutual possessions.

There are rights and benefits to 'marriage' that are not covered under 'unions'.  And, please, do not provoke the 'but heterosexual marriages produce children' fallacy, please, don't, please.  Only one quarter of heterosexual marriages have children involved.  Are the other three quarters abominations?  There is a general consensus that any couple with children is a 'family' and that is good for the most part - maybe we can use that to advantage.  Studies show that children reared in homosexual families are as normal as (or better than) those reared in heterosexual families.  So much for that myth (that the former will be 'turned gay' or some other crapola).

Wake up, people.  We're all in this horrid boat called life together.  We had better get used to living with each other while the species exists and propagates 'cause, you'll notice, there are no dinosaurs roaming around anymore.  You want survival and perpetuity, get used to compromise and evolution (in more ways than genetic).  Otherwise, get yourself spruced up for that museum display in 50 million years.

Don't understand why you think life is such a horrid boat. My take on this is that it will need to be sorted out very carefully. I have already talked with two couples who have broken up over it. In both cases one person was waiting for it to go through, the other was dreading it. Kind of separates the chafe from the wheat. The other is this. If you get married and adopt or have children through artificial insemination, who gets the child/children, who pays support or alimony and will it be enforced? Will this really protect anyone's rights? If there is a divorce who gets the house? The car? I really don't care if folks get married, I'm not going to waste my time with it. It was bound to happen sooner or later and grats to the folks who are able to make it work. Marriage in any form is a job, no matter how fun it is and how much you are in love. After 30 years of marriage my husband and I still take midnight swims, (now that we cleaned the pool again), and we still work side by side when something needs to be done. I attribute that to love, not marriage. Marriage will help if something happens to one of us, it protects against lawyers and such. But without love marriage is a trap. Hope all folks these days realize that, not just gay and lesbian couples.

Oh and please lay off people who believe in a loving God and who believe in Jesus. Never understood why it's ok for folks to slam folks who believe, yet if we say something we believe in we are prudes or closeminded. You want folks to leave you alone in your beliefs, try to refrain from slamming other beliefs and you may get a surprise. I personally don't care if someone is gay or lesbian, but am getting sick of hearing about it all the time. Turn the page already, get on with just living.

Quote -
Wake up, people.  We're all in this horrid boat called life together.  We had better get used to living with each other while the species exists and propagates 'cause, you'll notice, there are no dinosaurs roaming around anymore.  You want survival and perpetuity, get used to compromise and evolution (in more ways than genetic).  Otherwise, get yourself spruced up for that museum display in 50 million years.

1. We ARE in this horrible boat and the only way out is called DEATH;
2. We cannot get perpetuity because, as individuals, we are going to die in at most a few decades;
3. If you think survival (as species) is so important, please watch next news on TV and then ask yourself whether a species only bent on the savage self destruction and destruction of the environment where it lives is worth surviving;
4. You could not find someone further than me from the stereotypical Bible & Winchester & Noose toting yankee redneck (I hope that to have managed to communicate my visceral despise of such people) but at the same time I do not think that homosexuality is something to be proud of.
5. There is no need for gay marriage: it is sufficient for legal and medical purposes to sign appropriate papers giving to the other one the power to perform all the necessary actions in case one is incapacitated (e.g. telling those professional sadists called doctors to stop playing with someone and let him go the way we ALL will HAVE to go...).

Bye

P.S.: By the way, I think that homosexuality is nothing more than one of our species defensive reactions against overpopulation.

"What goes on between consenting adults is their own business and they should have the right to marry whomever they wish."

Why does the government need to endorse it?  On one hand you want "what goes on between consenting adults" to be their business.  On the other you want the government to endorse it, support it, change other institutions to include it.

Marriage is marriage, why must the gay lobby insist on changing it to fit their vision, and forcing everyone else to accept it?

Based on Holy Scripture, 

**God Instituted Marriage

**“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth” (Gen. 1:27,28). In the same connection, the Bible relates of God creating man in His own image (chiefly in the soul), as well as creating man and woman. Both are basic facts of human existence. We are responsible to God and are created to live in union with each other. This union is realized most deeply between spouses. The creation narrative illustrates this: “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh” (Genesis 2:18–24).

I'm not adding any more to this thread!

Quote - I personally don't care if someone is gay or lesbian, but am getting sick of hearing about it all the time. Turn the page already, get on with just living.

I'm afraid that until society as a whole, including governments, starts accepting the fact that gay and lesbian people exist and that it's not a deviant behaviour, and people learn to just let people live their lives as they see fit without imposing their own moral beliefs into the equation, we'll continue to see people putting their sexuality "out there" for all the world to see. Once that happens we'll no longer see "gay pride parades" and the need to people to publically declare their sexuality, or media scrutinizing the sexuality of celebrities etc.

However we are decades if not centuries away from that ever happening.

Quote - 1. We ARE in this horrible boat and the only way out is called DEATH;

All living organisms die. :)

Quote - 2. We cannot get perpetuity because, as individuals, we are going to die in at most a few decades;

Of course, perpetuity of the species.  But you have to live through those few decades.  I don't think our sentience should allow us just to suffer and scrape a living like other animals and then die. Read up on 'cynicism' - these were really nutballs back in Ancient Greece who wanted everyone running around naked begging for food and shelter to spread the idea of everybody doing that.  Unfortunately, if everyone were running around naked begging for food and shelter, who would provide it?

Quote - 3. If you think survival (as species) is so important, please watch next news on TV and then ask yourself whether a species only bent on the savage self destruction and destruction of the environment where it lives is worth surviving;

No 'species' really survives long any way in geologic time.  The average is about 2-5 million years.  Dinosaurs, as a full group of animals, survived and evolved for 125 million years but individual special types (like T. Rex) only lasted a short period within.  We're at about the 1 million year mark.

Yep, our aggressive tendencies and lack of long time foresight will be the end of us.

Quote - 4. You could not find someone further than me from the stereotypical Bible & Winchester & Noose toting yankee redneck (I hope that to have managed to communicate my visceral despise of such people) but at the same time I do not think that homosexuality is something to be proud of.

Neither is 'heterosexuality'.  It is something to be...  Why can it never be left at that?

Quote - 5. There is no need for gay marriage: it is sufficient for legal and medical purposes to sign appropriate papers giving to the other one the power to perform all the necessary actions in case one is incapacitated (e.g. telling those professional sadists called doctors to stop playing with someone and let him go the way we ALL will HAVE to go...).

Then there is no need for heterosexual marriage.  Please bring up the children fallacy (see my last post).  There are children being raised in single-parent families or in partnerships without marriage or without any parents.  And plenty of marriages with no children.

Quote - P.S.: By the way, I think that homosexuality is nothing more than one of our species defensive reactions against overpopulation.

Records of homosexuality go back to Ancient Greece and they probably existed before that.  There was no overpopulation then (nor for the next two thousand years).  The recent increase of it may be linked to overpopulation but that doesn't make it 'abnormal'.  I love that how a person ends up genetically makes them unique but if it doesn't make them like the rest it is abnormal.

Quote - 5. There is no need for gay marriage: it is sufficient for legal and medical purposes to sign appropriate papers giving to the other one the power to perform all the necessary actions in case one is incapacitated (e.g. telling those professional sadists called doctors to stop playing with someone and let him go the way we ALL will HAVE to go...).

What i get for $40 a gay couple would have to spend thousands of dollars to have written up by lawyers. Even then they would not recieve any benifits (social security, medicare, pensions, insurance, etc). There are many things that cannot be bestowed upon a partner with such a contract.

examples:

The marital communications privilege is the privilege allowing one spouse not to testify about confidential communications made to the other spouse. This only applies to legaly married couples.

In some cases confilct of intrest laws may not apply because the government does not recognize the gay relationship.

Taxes cannot be filed together. Debts to creditors are not shared.

Insurance companies view married couples as safer drivers, rates are lower strictly because of being married. Gay relationships are not recognized.

When one gay partner dies the inharitance is taxed. A spouce inherits tax free.

Private institutions are under no obligation to recognize your private contracts.

I am impressed by those of us here that can actually participate in this discussion in a way that actually gives our posts credibility.

What's the point of posting an opinion if it's done in such an immature and derogatory way that it is nothing but hypocritical?

As for me, I serve the Lord. I find that interesting that suddenly people think they can label me. Holy Roller. Bible Nut. Jesus Freak. Isn't it those same labels and judgements that the opposing side is trying to get rid of? Is it not the same type of prejudice?

I was in SF a few years ago. I happened to arrive when this issue was first presented and was very heated. The person I was staying with, had a gay sister, who happened to be getting married the day I arrived at cityhall. I, being a guest in the city, went with, as it was my first visit to SF.

Out front of city hall were "christians", whom told me my soul was going to hell, that I must turn from my wicked ways, etc, etc. I actually tried to strike up conversation with them to no avail. Because I was not on their side of the fence, I must be on the opposite side.

My own views, whether right or wrong, are this. Jesus Himself never EVER forgot the person. He never made stereotypes based on a given situation.

The Bible is quite clear on this subject. And I follow that Bible. Does it mean I hate gay people? No. Does it mean I won't talk to a gay person? No.

Do I think the Bible is dated? No. Furthermore, I believe the more we stray from God and the Bible as a nation, the worse our society becomes. Don't believe me? Take a really close look at what has been happening the last forty years.

I would also once again like to thank those participating in a mature fashion. Though we disagree, it should not change our opinions of each other.

Quote - Oh and please lay off people who believe in a loving God and who believe in Jesus. Never understood why it's ok for folks to slam folks who believe, yet if we say something we believe in we are prudes or closeminded. You want folks to leave you alone in your beliefs, try to refrain from slamming other beliefs and you may get a surprise. I personally don't care if someone is gay or lesbian, but am getting sick of hearing about it all the time. Turn the page already, get on with just living.

I can't let this go by unretorted.

I was raised in an Italian Roman Catholic family - very religious and some of them still are.  I was even considering seminary to become a Franciscan monk at one point.  But then I learned some life lessons.

See, the problem is that you turn it around so nicely.  Poor religious people - awww.  So, it's only us (a very small minority) berating you (the vast majority).  Religious people never try to dictate my life (sarcasm, big fat stinking sarcasm).  They (and I mean particular groups and not a blanket everyone) try to tell people who they can marry, how to love, work, live.  They force this into legislation.  They sometimes determine if you live.  And it is I who is slamming you?  If we were just to be quiet and let those poor religious folks get on with doing their honorable stuff for us, hmmm, any self-described homosexuals would be dead or imprisoned or institutionalized.
I'll make a pact with ya.  You (general) leave my life alone and I'll stop retaliating in defense of non-stop attempts to legislate how I live.  Sound reasonable?

Short list of laws/programs with religious undertones or under constant attack from religious organizations:

Abortion
Homosexuality
Homosexual marriage
Creationism/Intelligent Design
Stem cell research
Right to die (Kevorkian and Terry Shiavo)
Faith-based initiative
School vouchers
Abstinence programs/Birth control

Except for the first, there is no other 'person' (loosely) harmed (yes, even with chosen right to terminate one's life due to suffering).

One reason that I am easily angered over these types of statements: AIDS.  I remember vividly the coming together and communal support given to the gay community by everyone else when AIDS killed millions.  Paybacks suck don't they.  It should make you (again, general - I hate English) feel ashamed and cry.

I for one have no problem with it, what I have a problem with is why people are so upset over this. I for one hope that people will loose their bigotry towards people who don't have the same belief as they do. Remember California was the first state to recognize marriage between people of different skin pigment.

"Otherwise, get yourself spruced up for that museum display in 50 million years."

LOL! Personally though, I think religion will probably be the reason why we'll be in a museum display a lot sooner than that.  ;)

Again, interpret that as you will.

SnowS

i believe it's important for the government to come around on this because, as many of us forget, homosexuality is not just frowned upon in many places, but outright outlawed.  there are people sitting in jail simply for being gay.  i remember a case in texas about ten years ago that made its way all the way to the supreme court where some guys in dallas got their home invaded just as they were engaged in sex, and thrown into prison for it.  they are not alone in this i assure you.  i don't know this for sure but they probably had their house tapped so as to catch them just at the right moment.

when you deny anyone any right at all, you justify denying anyone's rights anytime.  (gitmo, anyone?)  i believe that the only way to protect your own rights is to stand up for those you don't really agree with so that we all have equal rights in every way.

o and just on the religious side...i figure jesus hated divorce more than anything.  he railed against it quite a  bit.  not that i would outlaw that either...i figure he was simply trying to insure that no women and children ended up starving to death.  our society does make effort in that direction.

Give me a break, maybe catholics treated you badly but I'm sick to death of folks blaming the church for every problem they have. Maybe if you just got on with your life and stopped demanding everyone treat you special because you're gay or whatever then folks would be so worried about it. I have a gay friend who just acts like a normal person. Doesn't have to tell the world she's gay just lives her life. She met someone who insists that EVERYONE knows she's gay, and I'm talking graphic discussions in resteraunts. Obviously being gay isn't her problem getting attention is. I don't hang out with this person because she's embarrassing to be around. I had another friend who is straight. Does the same thing but talks about heterosexual encounters. I don't hang out with her anymore either. It is a LIFESTYLE no matter how you look at it. I don't insist that you live your life according to my rules, please stop demanding that I live according to your rules. I don't have parades to validate my sexual preference, don't know why gays feel they are so special because that is the lifestyle they have chosen. Get over yourselves, you are not that special.

Quote - I don't insist that you live your life according to my rules, please stop demanding that I live according to your rules.

I actually think this is a very common issue for people. For me, as a Christian to tell you my views is "holier than thou", "judgemental" and the like, but if I don't accept your views I am close minded.

I think this is where the circle begins. How do you convince someone you're not being judgemental without sounding judgemental?

Quote - Give me a break, maybe catholics treated you badly but I'm sick to death of folks blaming the church for every problem they have. Maybe if you just got on with your life and stopped demanding everyone treat you special because you're gay or whatever then folks would be so worried about it. I have a gay friend who just acts like a normal person. Doesn't have to tell the world she's gay just lives her life. She met someone who insists that EVERYONE knows she's gay, and I'm talking graphic discussions in resteraunts. Obviously being gay isn't her problem getting attention is. I don't hang out with this person because she's embarrassing to be around. I had another friend who is straight. Does the same thing but talks about heterosexual encounters. I don't hang out with her anymore either. It is a LIFESTYLE no matter how you look at it. I don't insist that you live your life according to my rules, please stop demanding that I live according to your rules. I don't have parades to validate my sexual preference, don't know why gays feel they are so special because that is the lifestyle they have chosen. Get over yourselves, you are not that special.

Quoted for agreement

Quote - > Quote - I don't insist that you live your life according to my rules, please stop demanding that I live according to your rules.

I actually think this is a very common issue for people. For me, as a Christian to tell you my views is "holier than thou", "judgemental" and the like, but if I don't accept your views I am close minded.

I think this is where the circle begins. How do you convince someone you're not being judgemental without sounding judgemental?

In my experience it is less often the subject matter and more often the presentation that is "holier than thou" or "judgmental"

I know some people that can talk about their beliefs for hours without being offensive and others who can barley open their mouths without making you cringe.

Disparaging remarks about "religious" people are almost always addressing the "vocal minorities".

Wow! All I can say is for something that should have been a joyful announcement, people really have gone out of their way to display their anger and hatred over it. You all need to ask yourself if that's really how your God wants you to react to someone elses joyful announcement.

This could have been a very nice thread of congratulatory posts. It should have been just that. If you've participated in the anger and hatred. Ask yourself why you felt the need to be so hateful. Does God tell you to behave that way? I don't think he does.

well, anyway, before they lock this thread, I just wanna mention that, when sulu
came out of the closet, the automatic sliding doors went "WHOOOOOOSSHHH".

Well since it would appear that almost everyone else is venting here I'd like to do the same, also.

SAME-SEX ATTRACTION, CAUSES AND CURES

Dozens of gay and lesbian couples were married in California Monday evening, starting at 5:01pm when same-sex marriages officially became legal in the state. Some of those who rushed to sign up for marriage licenses were from out-of-state; unlike Massachusetts, California has no law requiring residency to obtain a marriage license. All of the new unions may yet be nullified, though. California voters can go to the polls in November to overturn the state Supreme Court’s ruling, and reinstate the state ban on same-sex marriages.

The promotion of gay marriage pulls from two basic assumptions, that:

1. homosexual attraction is inborn and genetic;
2. homosexual attraction, though found in a relatively small portion of the population, is still normal and harmless.

If people believe that homosexuals are normal and are truly “born that way”, then it is easy to argue that gay and lesbian couples should be allowed to marry just as other minorities are allowed to marry. These consider discrimination against same-sex couples as a cruel denial of basic human rights.

The gay and lesbian political machine has been working hard for decades to promote those two assumptions. Neither, however, is close to having been proven. While a significant number of gays and lesbians truly feel that they were “different” from birth, there is little to prove that same-sex attraction is purely genetic. Homosexuality flies in the face of basic laws of procreation, and cannot therefore be considered “normal”, and there is plenty of evidence that the lifestyles of gay men tend to be anything other than harmless.

In July, 1993, the magazine Science announced the existence of the “gay gene.” Of course, what the research actually determined was more like, “There could possibly be maybe a chance that this particular gene could conceivably have an influence on being gay. Sort of.” Unfortunately, many people in the public assumed an actual gay gene had been found, and the idea that people are “born gay” took off.

In 1973, the American Psychiatric Association voted to remove homosexuality from the list of psychiatric illnesses. According to a survey reported in the journal Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality in 1977, though, 69 percent of psychiatrists still considered homosexuality a disorder.
The fact is that the “experts” don’t know exactly what causes homosexual attraction. The APA does see it as a combination of nature and nurture. Certain trends pop up, though. Sensitive personalities, poor relationships with fathers, forceful mothers, trauma in childhood, early sexual activity and/or molestation, early rejection by peers – things that leave small children longing for love or acceptance, or that create an extreme sense of inadequacy – are the sorts of things in the backgrounds of many unwilling homosexuals. Then there is the spiritual aspect, which is even harder to nail down in politically correct America.

Ex-Gays
Perhaps the biggest arguments against the “born that way” mantra are the many men and women who have changed. The process is often difficult and takes a long time and careful, loving therapy. When the foundational causes of the same-sex attraction are addressed and dealt with, however, significant numbers of once-homosexuals have become heterosexual. They have been freed from something that was a chain around their necks and hearts, and have rejoiced in becoming whole.

Former lesbian Debbie Thurman says, “I can count myself among the growing numbers of men and women who have overcome a significant struggle with same-sex attraction. While our stories and the degree to which we have found wholeness may be different, the central themes are often similar. Frequently, you will find we came from broken homes, were alienated from one or both parents, were sexually abused as children, are sensitive by temperament, and suffered from depression.

"…Sticky problems arise when a number of those who have 'always felt' homosexual begin moving along the continuum of feeling less so, and at the same time, actually begin feeling better about themselves. How dare we forsake the gay cause célebrè? Like crabs trying to escape from a bucket, gay activists begin dragging us down.

“Detractors insist that measurable results must be quick, and that change 'isn't change' if it requires a long process. These same people generally see life as a continual 'journey' in all other respects. But if someone gives up during the long process, that is somehow 'proof' that change is a sham. Never mind that overeaters, alcoholics or drug addicts fall off the wagon every day. The standard for sexual identity change remains 'all or nothing'!

“So where are the mental health professionals who will stand up and challenge these untruths? Why do they allow the APA to hijack the truth?”

Regardless of what the politically-charged APA accepts, the Bible consistently condemns same-sex sexual intercourse as wrong. At the same time, Jesus Christ specifically came to save those who were lost. That’s all of us. He loves us. He died for our sins, and through the power of the Holy Spirit working in our lives, we can all be freed from the various chains that hang around our necks. According to Paul in Romans 1:18-32, homosexuality has a root cause in a culture’s turning away from God the Creator. It’s easy to attack people lost in same-sex attraction, but we are all responsible as a culture to truly put Christ first in our lives, and to love our neighbors as ourselves. If we do that, maybe we will have fewer young people falling prey to the lie of homosexuality.

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." - 1 Cor 6:9-11 (NKJV)

one other thing: altho I qualify as a christian (e.g. not jewish, muslim, hindu, buddhist et al.)
I got confused about the part in the bible where apparently eve was the only woman, but cain
and abel musta had kids, so where did their wives come from?

"Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God."

At least the ban on thieves, drunkards, extortioners and adulterers will keep out roughly 100% of our politicians.  :)

SnowS

Quote - Well since it would appear that almost everyone else is venting here I'd like to do the same, also.

After reading your uncited quotation of Pastor Jesse Roland's blog (who intern quotes without citation the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality) I am left with some questions.

Quote - Homosexuality flies in the face of basic laws of procreation, and cannot therefore be considered “normal”, and there is plenty of evidence that the lifestyles of gay men tend to be anything other than harmless.

Abstinence, monogamy and celibacy also fly in the face of basic laws of procreation. How are we to pick and choose which are appropriate? Keep in mind that as a non-christian i do not give much weight to your Biblical quotations.

Quote - The fact is that the “experts” don’t know exactly what causes homosexual attraction. The APA does see it as a combination of nature and nurture. Certain trends pop up, though. Sensitive personalities, poor relationships with fathers, forceful mothers, trauma in childhood, early sexual activity and/or molestation, early rejection by peers – things that leave small children longing for love or acceptance, or that create an extreme sense of inadequacy – are the sorts of things in the backgrounds of many unwilling homosexuals. Then there is the spiritual aspect, which is even harder to nail down in politically correct America.

If we assume that any or all of these "nurture" events are the "cause" of the sexual orientation, why do we need to "fix" someone who has found fulfilment of their needs in a loving relationship? True there are extreemes in homosexual activity, as there are in heterosexual activity, and in sports for that matter, but these cannot be used as the baseline for judging a group.

Quote - They [exgays] have been freed from something that was a chain around their necks and hearts, and have rejoiced in becoming whole.

Former alcoholics say similar things, should I then stop having a glass of wine with dinner so that I can become “whole” and be freed from a chain around my neck?

Quote - one other thing: altho I qualify as a christian (e.g. not jewish, muslim, hindu, buddhist et al.)
I got confused about the part in the bible where apparently eve was the only woman, but cain
and abel musta had kids, so where did their wives come from?

I believe it was "Asimov's guide to the bible" had some interesting speculation on that. If I recall correctly he says that it was possible that the individuals in the genesis stories were not single people but rather groups or societies and the stories represent things that were happening more widely. For example the story of Adam and Eve getting kicked out of the garden of Eden was a representation of the shift from nomadic life to agrarian life. The tree of knowledge was the knowledge of sewing crops which tied the people to one location  and ment they had to work the land. Thus they could not live the free roaming lifestyle that was the "garden of eden".

but then others just say the bible doens't cover everything that happened.

What has religion got to do with anything?
Are people not capable of their own thought without the inclusion of a religious belief?
If someone chooses to agree with same sex marriages or not, it's a personal opinion, end of. 
Who decides whether something is right or wrong?
My personal opinion is do what you will with your life so long as you're not harming anyone.

Quote - Do I think the Bible is dated? No. Furthermore, I believe the more we stray from God and the Bible as a nation, the worse our society becomes. Don't believe me? Take a really close look at what has been happening the last forty years.

The Bible is not only dated (i.e. role of women) but it is also VERY flawed. There are MANY versions of the Bible and there are THOUSANDS of errors - both intentional and unintentional - in the Bible. There are several books - by Christians, Evangelicals and others - that point these items out. We are NOT talking about laypeople writing books, but Biblical Scholars!! Read "Misquoting Jesus" to get a real idea as to what these changes are. Anyone who believes that the Bible is the inerrant word of God really does not know how the Bible came to be and how it got to where it is now.

And have you actually stopped to think (before you stated about the last 40 years) that lifestyles have changed considerably? How many mothers stayed at home 40 years ago? How many did in the 80's? How many today? Perhaps it could have something to do with that? Parents today want their schools to teach their kids everything rather than take on that responsibility themselves. To say that it is because we have strayed from God is very sad. You don't need a god to teach morality.

Quote - Maybe if you just got on with your life and stopped demanding everyone treat you special because you're gay or whatever then folks would be so worried about it. 

Well Marque, it's BECAUSE people will not allow them to be treated "normally." haven't you read the thread? If same sex couples were actually treated the same as their heterosexual counterparts, we would not be having this discussion. Do you honestly think that they want to be treated special? That's not it AT ALL. They just want the same rights and privileges that EVERYONE ELSE HAS.

Quote -  It is a LIFESTYLE no matter how you look at it. I don't insist that you live your life according to my rules, please stop demanding that I live according to your rules. I don't have parades to validate my sexual preference, don't know why gays feel they are so special because that is the lifestyle they have chosen. Get over yourselves, you are not that special.

So it is YOUR contention that they have chosen this lifestyle? It's not genetic? They have chosen to be harassed rather than take the easier "heterosexual route?" Yeah....   right. These people are NOT demanding that YOU live by their rules - they just want to live by the same rules that YOU do. But since YOUR rules do not allow them to marry, obviously they MUST make some noise to try to change the rules. Understand?

Quote - Ex-Gays
Perhaps the biggest arguments against the “born that way” mantra are the many men and women who have changed. The process is often difficult and takes a long time and careful, loving therapy. When the foundational causes of the same-sex attraction are addressed and dealt with, however, significant numbers of once-homosexuals have become heterosexual. They have been freed from something that was a chain around their necks and hearts, and have rejoiced in becoming whole.

Obviously you are not an expert but are quoting others. Taking pieces from here and there does not help. Obviously there are same-sex attractions not based on genetics - some are from child abuse. So in essense they were not "born" gay. But then you are lumping all homosexuals together. Regardless if it IS a choice or IS genetic, consenting adults should be allowed to marry - it does not hurt anyone in doing so.

There are SO many people who want to impose THEIR will on others, it simply boggles my mind. By allowing same-sex couples to marry, they are NOT imposing their will on ANYONE, but just want the same as every heterosexual. The ONLY reall reason people are against it IS religious. And in this country, that should not fly. This will more then likely end up at the Supreme Court and hopefully the Constitution will prevail and allow EVERYONE equal rights.

*quote:"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God."

Wow, as an adulterous, sodomizing, fornicating, idolator who likes to drink while reviling and coveting - it looks like I'm screwed seven ways to Sunday :)

• Rick

Quote - What has religion got to do with anything?
Are people not capable of their own thought without the inclusion of a religious belief?
If someone chooses to agree with same sex marriages or not, it's a personal opinion, end of. 
Who decides whether something is right or wrong?
My personal opinion is do what you will with your life so long as you're not harming anyone.

I agree completely.

The reason why religion is injected is because the religious right (NOT to be confused with the common-sense Christian/Jew/Muslim/Bhuddist, etc.) essentially want to impose there beliefs on others. Some things I can completely understand - such as abortion. There is the issue as to when human life really begins and that will be debated for a long time. But when it comes to same-sex marriage...   there is no reason except that they want everyone to believe as they do.

It's sad.

What about the constitution of the United States? What about the Bill of Rights?? Or do these documents mean nothing anymore? How can you say you live in the land of the free and the home of the brave when you deny other's their rights to live freely and without persecution? Or does the Constitution and Bof R only good for those "certain" few??????

And please save me the argument about the Founding Fathers and their "religious" beliefs if you dive further into their lives and ideals you will see that many of them warned against and "National" religion because they knew this would be just as oppressive as the government they were fighting to break from. The FF also knew there were other religions and people of different mind sets in the world besides their own hence the phrase "endowed by THEIR creator" as a matter of fact Jefferson was interested in Islam so much so he had a copy of the Koran.

I grew up very religious to the point of almost entering the priesthood (I served in the 20 years in the military  instead) and I do not understand, nor will I ever, this need to mix the affairs of God in a worldly government affairs? Paul warned the early church of this and Christ himself made point of this also. It also annoys me that those who profess to be saved by grace are the most vicious, condemning and judgmental and feel they need to enforce the laws of God. God needs no help he and he alone will judge God needs no worldly government, institution or MAN to do this. Do you really feel that Christ himself would not love the very people you stand against? Who are you to do so?

Again, you can't say people have the freedom to choose how they want to live their lives and then turn around and deny them that freedom...kinda sounds like speaking with a fork tongue?
This would be an excellent debate however I see how "Adult" these debates come out here.

I have no doubt this is going to turn a lot of people off to me, but so be it.  I personally do not agree with homosexuality, but niether am I trying to appear self righteous or 'holier then thou'.  I am simply stating Biblical Truth.

**Genesis 19:4, 5
**"Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house.  And they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight?  Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally."
 
Know them carnally meaning that the men of Sodom desired homosexual relations with Lot's visitors.

**Genesis 19: 24, 25
**"Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens.  So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground."

The Bible is not flawed, some translations just may not be 100% accurate as the original writings.  But there can be no mistake about God's position on homosexuality, considering Sodom and Gomorrah (and every single person in those cities with the exception of Lot and his family) were destroyed for their sin and depravity.  This is just one of countless examples in the Old Testament of God's judgement on people for their sin.   

In the case of Jesus saying that "let he without sin cast the first stone", John 8:9 says that those who heard him went away convicted by their consiences.  Only the Lord is blameless and it is to Him that we must give an account of our actions on judgement day.  Man's law is not God's law.  Man's laws can be changed, ammended or updated.  God's law has and always will be the same and uncompromised. 

1000 years ago, people believed putting an onion on your head would cure a headache. Perhaps we shouldn't blindly believe everything our ancient ancestors said.   :)

SnowS

I think that we marry because we fall in love with a person's inside and the exterior gender thing is just a formality. I wish I had a significant other so that I could participate. I am much happier now, gay than when I was a straight. Let me rephrase that - I am happier now that I realized that I was fighting my true impulse in an attempt to appear normal to the outside world.

I was raised in a bible family -  my grandmother is a Doctor of Theology, learned Greek and Hebrew to translate the texts; my mom runs a church with her pastor / husband; my dad's side of the family is VERY Catholic - and I while the bible does state that homosexuality is one sin among many, one cannot interpret the bible literally for two reasons:

• nuances are lost in translation and,
• really folks, can the finite mind of man know the mind of an infinite God?

Besides, why would God condemn me if he made me gay?

I personally don't care if gay couples want to get married or not, it's their choice. If they want to, they should be allowed. As I said before, if no one's being harmed, what's the problem?
This religious issue is pathetic on two counts. Firstly, if there is a God & Jesus, who knows what they said & secondly, why base your beliefs on this, it's not important & it's not relevant. I would hate to run my life by what was wrote in a book. You might as well pick up a Mills & Boon.
If more people thought for themselves there would be less problems in this world.

Quote - 1000 years ago, people believed putting an onion on your head would cure a headache. Perhaps we shouldn't blindly believe everything our ancient ancestors said.   :)

SnowS

The One who said that 'he without sin should cast the first stone' will still be alive long after our current bodies are dead and buried.  I think that makes him more of a living relative than an ancestor.  :D

As for your first sentence, I would think an onion would cause more of a headache with all the eye rubbing and crying it would cause.

Imo, we're going to see a lot more of this in a lot more states and other countries. It's simply a sign of our times and we can't stop it. That's not saying I do agree or do not agree, everyone should make up his or her own mind about these kind of things.

But before one makes up his or her mind perhaps it's a good thing to read this little statement:

Let the one who is doing wrong continue to do wrong; the one who is vile, continue to be vile; the one who is good, continue to do good; and the one who is holy, continue in holiness."  "See, I am coming soon, and my reward is with me, to repay all according to their deeds.  I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

One day Jesus Christ will be coming back to judge each man and woman that ever lived according to their deeds and that means we're all in big trouble. We've all sinned against God, we've all broken one or more of His commandments. If you've lied, stolen, lusted after someone, been jealous, hated anyone, failed to always put God first in your life, dishonered or disobeyed or disrespected your parents in any way, failed to keep Gods day as a special day for Him then you're already in trouble.

God alone, who made the law, can rightly judge among us. He alone has the power to save or to destroy. Those who sin are opposed to the law of God, for all sin opposes the law of God. **God's law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were.
**
Being opposed to the law of God isn't a good thing at all and we've all done it and have to face God one day and that's not something to look forward too.

Unless....... You know that Jesus came to take away our sins, for there is no sin in him. But as people sinned more and more, God's wonderful kindness became more abundant.  So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God's wonderful kindness rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Homesexual or heterosexual it doesn't matter at all, we're all stand quilty before God because we failed to keep His commandments and only one Person can save us from the fate ahead!

This thread is so far off topic that I'm surprised it hasn't been locked yet.

I think it will be soon.

*1000 years ago, people believed putting an onion on your head would cure a headache. Perhaps we shouldn't blindly believe everything our ancient ancestors said.   :)

SnowS*

I've tried that and it really WORKS!!! Do it for a couple of minutes and your eyes hurt so badly that you forget all about your headache!

Anayway I'm glad Rendo allows a bit of discussion on the subject and they're not as upthight as DAZ is. They allow certain people to take a stand for the issues, but remove every comment that is made against it. When you take a stand for the issue you're not political, religious and so on, but when you take a stand against it you suddenly are.