I ... on the other hand ... look forward to you making Poser content again.  Even if it's not as enjoyable for you as making DS content.

Quote - Afterall...lets face it....making stuff for poser is about 5 times the work as it is for d/s.Wether you like daz or not, you can tell by their software that they come from a content creation background and really do give great tools to make content creation a much more streamlined process.....whereas for poser most of the methods of doing things are hacks that need alot of independantly created apps to even start to do effectively, and even then it often requires a ton of hand editing to get just what you want.

I am really not looking forward to going back to make poser versions.

 

Rawn

Since Poser has introduced weight-mapping, maybe it'll be easier for you guys to make things for Poser now. 

LROG -- thank you for the requirement sheet from HiveWire.  I, for one, appreciate you keeping me/us/everyone updated on the latest developments.  That means I don't have to scour FB or the HW page.  I can get my info here. 

Laurie, I think Dawn's arms look great, too. 

Another beautiful day in the neighborhood, I see.  :biggrin:

Weight mapping doesnt really make things easier.

Since the weight mapping is still different in each program, they will likely need to be made seperately as well.

The ways of applying morphs are different

The shader set-up is different so textures have to be made independantly

Sp they really are completely seperate animals when it comes to making content.

Quote - LaurieA,

Start by viewing these five videos about Rigging and Content Creation,
http://www.4colorgrafix.net/blog/2011/09/03/daz-studio-4-the-missing-manual/

Thank you vintorix...I wasn't aware of these :).

Laurie

Rawnrr , "The ways of applying morphs are different"

This is funny, is it doom and gloom day or? Are you sure the you rose with the right foot first from the bed today?

The way you CREATE the morphs are exactly similar with both programs. In your external modeler. You use the same morphs in Daz and Poser. APPLYING morphs take only a few seconds in either programs- big deal!

With Dawn it never has been so easy to make content for Poser. Do not use the fitting room, that is for adapting cloth not originally made to the target figure. If you have the correct mesh you use the setup room, with the Dawn ClothingResourceBase as donator,(Project Template in Daz parlance). Fneadjust with weight maps but to tell the truth it is very seldom you need to adjust anything.

The shaders I am sorry to say, have mostly been misused by the Poser people. The way the pros make texture is that they build up a master file in photoshop, from which they extract diffuse, bump and displacement. (or ambient/spectacular etc etc). And/or they make maps with ZBrush.

The shaders are applied last, as they are only the icing on the cake. Unlike the shaders the maps can be reused in both Poser and Daz.
 

Quote - Weight mapping doesnt really make things easier.

Since the weight mapping is still different in each program, they will likely need to be made seperately as well.

The ways of applying morphs are different

The shader set-up is different so textures have to be made independantly

Sp they really are completely seperate animals when it comes to making content.

While there are differences, its not that bad. Both programs have an arsenal of features and tools and utilities, built-in and external to make it easier. 

In my case, i used to spend a good chunk of rigging time on making JCMs to make nicer bends and add functionality. Weightmapping eliminated the need for a good percentage of those, opening up time to consider dual rigging at aporoximately the same production cost.

I dont know enough about DS to say for sure, but I cant see how the textures would need to made differently.  Especially for something simple like cloth.  recreating the shaders is one thing, but I would expect the lions share of colour, bump, displacement and specular maps would be the same.  Perhaps DS may require you to bake in certain things if its shader system cant replicate the same effects as poser or vice versa... I would hope that would be the exception rather than the rule though...

like I said though, I dont know that much about DS yet

Quote - Weight mapping doesnt really make things easier.

Since the weight mapping is still different in each program, they will likely need to be made seperately as well.

The ways of applying morphs are different

The shader set-up is different so textures have to be made independantly

Sp they really are completely seperate animals when it comes to making content.

If you're working in Studio,  there's a pretty easy work flow to get it into Poser with most of the work done for you...

1. Either export your studio work as a .cr2 or DSON it and then resave it in Poser as a .cr2.

2. If you have Poser2014/10, use in the "Figure" menu tree the "Copy joint zones from..." Dawn to your clothing content.  "Copy morphs from..." works fairly well too.  I found that simply copying the Dawn Poser WMs gets you pretty close.

"I would expect the lions share of colour, bump, displacement and specular maps would be the same"

Just so.

"Perhaps DS may require you to bake in certain things if its shader system cant replicate the same effects as poser or vice versa"

Remember that vendors usually provide several sets of textures and there are no reason why all the shaders should be exactly similar in the Poser vs the Daz version.

Quote - I dont know enough about DS to say for sure, but I cant see how the textures would need to made differently.  Especially for something simple like cloth.  recreating the shaders is one thing, but I would expect the lions share of colour, bump, displacement and specular maps would be the same.  Perhaps DS may require you to bake in certain things if its shader system cant replicate the same effects as poser or vice versa... I would hope that would be the exception rather than the rule though...

like I said though, I dont know that much about DS yet

I think bump maps are handled differently.  Studio, a value of 0 is the largest negative bump, 128 is normal, and 255 is the largest positive bump.  Poser 0 is normal and 255 is the largest positive bump.  Unless this has changed recently.

So a poser map would not work as expected in studio, and vice a versa.  A poser map could be altered in photoshop easily to work in studio, but a studio map that used the negative bump would not convert to poser.

I believe that this applies to displacement as well, but I'm not sure.

ncamp

Quote - I think bump maps are handled differently.  Studio, a value of 0 is the largest negative bump, 128 is normal, and 255 is the largest positive bump.  Poser 0 is normal and 255 is the largest positive bump.  Unless this has changed recently.

So a poser map would not work as expected in studio, and vice a versa.  A poser map could be altered in photoshop easily to work in studio, but a studio map that used the negative bump would not convert to poser.

I believe that this applies to displacement as well, but I'm not sure.

ncamp

Thats no problem. Poser shader system has math nodes that can adjust this without having to fiddle in photoshop or make separate texture maps.

Sorry to go slightly off topic, but anyone who does clothing models... Do any of you use 3d-Coat?

yes yes, the strength of the bump and/or displacement may need to be adjusted but the main work can be reused. This is my last post about that subject I am not so much for nit-picking. My opinion is the same as Kitteh's.- it is faster to make two versions for Dawn that it was to make one version for V4 before.

Quote - Afterall...lets face it....making stuff for poser is about 5 times the work as it is for d/s.

Wether you like daz or not, you can tell by their software that they come from a content creation background and really do give great tools to make content creation a much more streamlined process.....whereas for poser most of the methods of doing things are hacks that need alot of independantly created apps to even start to do effectively, and even then it often requires a ton of hand editing to get just what you want.

I am really not looking forward to going back to make poser versions.

 

Rawn

I'm sorry, Rawn, but this just goes to show you've spent no time rigging in PoserPro2014.  Quite frankly, base rigging has never been so easy nor fast.

I've done the base weight mapped rigging on 2 outfits within minutes in PP14 in the last 24 hours.

Do the maps require some refinement?  Of course they do, but if one isn't bothering to refine and customize, then they are producing inferior products.

At any rate, I couldn't just let this incorrect post stand without commenting.

Quote - Do not use the fitting room, that is for adapting cloth not originally made to the target figure. If you have the correct mesh you use the setup room, with the Dawn ClothingResourceBase as donator,(Project Template in Daz parlance). Fneadjust with weight maps but to tell the truth it is very seldom you need to adjust anything.

Sorry, this, too is incorrect.  You can rig in PP14 using the fitting room or the setup room.  Also, weight map refinements are going to be required to release a quality product.  Are they close?  Absolutely!  But they WILL need refinement to produce a quality product.

Have a look at those characters that are on here that are both for Victoria 4 and Genesis.

If ya have a look at FWPD Nadia by P3Design and FWArt both V4 and Genesis versions of the character use the exact same texture files. The only difference is in the pose folder there you have .ds (Studio) and .pz2 (Poser) files for the texture application to the relevant figure.

Quote - If you're working in Studio,  there's a pretty easy work flow to get it into Poser with most of the work done for you...

1. Either export your studio work as a .cr2 or DSON it and then resave it in Poser as a .cr2.

2. If you have Poser2014/10, use in the "Figure" menu tree the "Copy joint zones from..." Dawn to your clothing content.  "Copy morphs from..." works fairly well too.  I found that simply copying the Dawn Poser WMs gets you pretty close.

Poser Place's Outfitter (free at RDNA) is more versatile, as it will allow you to exclude actors from the joint zone transfer processs.  This is useful for hip and thigh actors of dresses and skirts, or the toes of shoes...

http://www.runtimedna.com/Outfitter.html

"But they WILL need refinement to produce a quality product."

Especially if you use the fitting room.. !

;)

Seriously, how much fine adjustement you have to do depends on your skill as modeller.

Quote - "But they WILL need refinement to produce a quality product."

Especially if you use the fitting room.. !

;)

Seriously, how much fine adjustement you have to do depends on your skill as modeller.

 

Using the Fitting Room or the Setup Room has no bearing.  They're exactly the same.

I demoed 3DCoat on couple occasions and wad quite impressed by it. I ended up not buying it only because I already had zbrush and couple other programs that gave me about the same capability so i decided to stick with what I have and learn it better. Last time i demoed it was just over a year ago. I imagine it has only goten better since then.

Othe then that, im afraid I cant be of any more technical help with it. If i didnt already have zbrush and 3d studio, i would have snapped up 3d coat. Part of me still wishes I got it.

Quote - Seriously, how much fine adjustement you have to do depends on your skill as modeller.

 

100% agree..

Quote - I dont know enough about DS to say for sure, but I cant see how the textures would need to made differently.  Especially for something simple like cloth.  recreating the shaders is one thing, but I would expect the lions share of colour, bump, displacement and specular maps would be the same.  Perhaps DS may require you to bake in certain things if its shader system cant replicate the same effects as poser or vice versa... I would hope that would be the exception rather than the rule though...

like I said though, I dont know that much about DS yet

One word....satin ;). In Poser can be made entirely with a shader and I'm nearly certain it won't go over to DS. Of course, I know nothing about DS but with two speculars and two reflects and a host of noodles in between it probably won't ;). Not saying that DS can't do satin...very likely can, I'm just pretty certain it doesn't do it like Poser does. LOL.

Laurie

Quote - Rawnrr , "The ways of applying morphs are different"

This is funny, is it doom and gloom day or? Are you sure the you rose with the right foot first from the bed today?

The way you CREATE the morphs are exactly similar with both programs. In your external modeler. You use the same morphs in Daz and Poser. APPLYING morphs take only a few seconds in either programs- big deal!

True that how you create morphs are the same...if you use an external modeler.  But there are some folks that make morphs using deformers or magnets.  So the methods can be different.

What Rawn means is that the method of saving a morph as a distributable file is different.  I haven't done any morphs in Poser for a long time and I doubt the saving process has changed much there.  In DS some steps are similar while others are very different.

Basic rundown on morphs in DS...

*bring in the morph using morph loader/morph loader pro - give it a name & do any reverse deformations needed.

*the morph is now listed in the parameters section - go into the morph settings to adjust settings, add thumbs & path settings (for example you creat an elf ear morph you would set the path to figure/head/ear/fantasy scifi).

*now you go to File>Save As>Support Asset>Morph Asset(s) - this saves the morph into the My Library/Content folder...you select the folder you want to save to, put in your vendor & product name.

Morphs not saved as a support asset will be saved in a scene so if you forget to save as a support asset but saved a scene with the morph you can go back to save it as a support asset at a later date.  

Quote - > Quote - I dont know enough about DS to say for sure, but I cant see how the textures would need to made differently.  Especially for something simple like cloth.  recreating the shaders is one thing, but I would expect the lions share of colour, bump, displacement and specular maps would be the same.  Perhaps DS may require you to bake in certain things if its shader system cant replicate the same effects as poser or vice versa... I would hope that would be the exception rather than the rule though...

like I said though, I dont know that much about DS yet

One word....satin ;). In Poser can be made entirely with a shader and I'm nearly certain it won't go over to DS. Of course, I know nothing about DS but with two speculars and two reflects and a host of noodles in between it probably won't ;). Not saying that DS can't do satin...very likely can, I'm just pretty certain it doesn't do it like Poser does. LOL.

Laurie

I was afraid to mention this because I didn't want folks to get the wrong impression, or to unintentionally start an app war.

But yes, the shaders and the appearance of shaders between apps are quite different, and there are many effects that can be done in Poser that don't quite have the same effect in DS. Most notable IMO are "ooooh shiny's" and rich velvety fabrics that really seem to "pop" and come alive in Poser but which look more subdued in DS. And I will admit this might be personal preference ...  

Either way, this is an area that I think there will need to be some collaborative effort ... perhaps having someone(s) familiar with BOTH shader systems to offer some good tutorials and advice that explains "this node in Poser is this brick in DS ... this node in Poser doesn't have an equivalent in DS, but if you combine this brick and this brick it gets close".  That kind of thing.  This would help folks on both sides. 

Quote - One word....satin ;). In Poser can be made entirely with a shader and I'm nearly certain it won't go over to DS. Of course, I know nothing about DS but with two speculars and two reflects and a host of noodles in between it probably won't ;). Not saying that DS can't do satin...very likely can, I'm just pretty certain it doesn't do it like Poser does. LOL. Laurie

The two render engines are as different as night and day.  While DS can read basic information from Poser shaders and can output basic poser shaders, the more complex shader setups in both are not compatible with one another.

Yep, knew that. And the problem is, I'd LIKE to get as close to the Poser ones as I can for DS and have NO idea how to accomplish it. I fear Poser users will get crappy shaders by primarily DS vendors and vice versa. Not intentionally of course, but because they aren't familiar with the other software. Or, worse yet, they'll dumb down the shaders in BOTH in the name of simplicity.

Laurie

So much better to sit back and watch others.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - > Quote - If you're working in Studio,  there's a pretty easy work flow to get it into Poser with most of the work done for you...

1. Either export your studio work as a .cr2 or DSON it and then resave it in Poser as a .cr2.

2. If you have Poser2014/10, use in the "Figure" menu tree the "Copy joint zones from..." Dawn to your clothing content.  "Copy morphs from..." works fairly well too.  I found that simply copying the Dawn Poser WMs gets you pretty close.

Poser Place's Outfitter (free at RDNA) is more versatile, as it will allow you to exclude actors from the joint zone transfer processs.  This is useful for hip and thigh actors of dresses and skirts, or the toes of shoes...

http://www.runtimedna.com/Outfitter.html

WandW, does Dawn show up in the Outfitter menu?  Sorry, probably stupid question, but I haven't thought to try the outfitter.......

on edit:

I'm talking about on the 'Select Package' submenu.....what does one select there?

And, I can't remember...will it copy weight maps on ghost bones?  I know it does the bones, but WITH weight maps?

Strange, I perused all the big newspapers in Stockholm today and no mentions of Dawn.

?

Quote - Yep, knew that. And the problem is, I'd LIKE to get as close to the Poser ones as I can for DS and have NO idea how to accomplish it. I fear Poser users will get crappy shaders by primarily DS vendors and vice versa. Not intentionally of course, but because they aren't familiar with the other software. Or, worse yet, they'll dumb down the shaders in BOTH in the name of simplicity.

Laurie

In a way, you cant go for identical look. You build shaders in each program to make it work in their relative environment and for the renderer. Even diffetent types of ligting within the same renderer will often affect shaders a lot.

Not sure I will give this away, but it was nice to play with a new "toy"

Quote - And a different pose.

Nice Dress

Nice work, same with me, I have decided to keep my project for myself to use.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Interesting how people are determined to tell me I am wrong, by trying to attribute details to the generalities I was saying.

But the reality is that there is currently no way to make products for both poser and d/s that wont involve significant work..and people should brace themselves that pricing may affect that.

That is really all I was saying.

Quote - > Quote - I dont know enough about DS to say for sure, but I cant see how the textures would need to made differently.  Especially for something simple like cloth.  recreating the shaders is one thing, but I would expect the lions share of colour, bump, displacement and specular maps would be the same.  Perhaps DS may require you to bake in certain things if its shader system cant replicate the same effects as poser or vice versa... I would hope that would be the exception rather than the rule though...

like I said though, I dont know that much about DS yet

I think bump maps are handled differently.  Studio, a value of 0 is the largest negative bump, 128 is normal, and 255 is the largest positive bump.  Poser 0 is normal and 255 is the largest positive bump.  Unless this has changed recently.

So a poser map would not work as expected in studio, and vice a versa.  A poser map could be altered in photoshop easily to work in studio, but a studio map that used the negative bump would not convert to poser.

I believe that this applies to displacement as well, but I'm not sure.

ncamp

You're not a fan of my 10,000 posts explaining how to use bump and displacement maps in poser properly? (Math Node:Subtract .5)

Yes, Poser and Daz Studio are different.  Fact of 3D life, nothing earth shattering, lol

As for packaging products.... I would personally vote for the CA's who choose to support both, to sell a package for each software program, and a bundle for those who use both. 

 I don't use DS anymore, had to give it up when it outpaced my machine, but I could use Poser. 

 I understand the extra work, but why should folks who only use one platform pay for both? 

Not trying to start trouble, just asking, lol :)

back to lurk mode......

Sits in nice comfy chair and just views whats going on.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote -
You're not a fan of my 10,000 posts explaining how to use bump and displacement maps in poser properly? (Math Node:Subtract .5)

I have been looking how to do that for so long... and like the clouds parting, I can see the sun... /dramatic

Thanks Bagginsbill, I have really been trying to figure out how to do that!

This discussion is ridiculous. There are no way in the world you can make a render exactly similar in another package in another render engine. I am really sad that this is not understood. What we are after is to minimize the time and effort, no more.

Then will BB of course take the matter in his hands, and after three days come up with something that is pretty close. That doesn't change a thing as we want something that is practical. Shaders are the icing of the cake, the final glitter. Nothing more. The heavy lifting is done by maps.

clayphd, I tried the 3DCoat demo.  It is nice!  It's good for lots of tasks, but I think its purpose is retopology.  And unless I use Zbrush, I don't need to retopologize.  :-)  I also tried Topogun, and love it, but again -- it's mainly for lowering poly count, and if you make your base model low poly to begin with...no need to re-do.  :-)

But as a content creator, you'll have to make your own choices.  Thing others might NOT use, you might find lots of uses for.  Everyone has his/her own style.  DarkEdge uses 3DCoat, and he's one of my favorite artists.

Quote - This discussion is ridiculous. There are no way in the world you can make a render exactly similar in another package in another render engine. I am really sad that this is not understood. What we are after is to minimize the time and effort, no more.

I do think the intention as cross-platform content creators is to make the two versions as similar as possible, not exactly the same (as that, again, would mean reverting to Poser 4 tech only).

Quote - Weight mapping doesnt really make things easier.

Since the weight mapping is still different in each program, they will likely need to be made seperately as well.

The ways of applying morphs are different

The shader set-up is different so textures have to be made independantly

Sp they really are completely seperate animals when it comes to making content.

Right.  :-)  And if you really don't like making things in Poser, why not team up with a talented Poser vendor, who can translate your items to Poser format?  I'm sure there are plenty who'd be willing to work with you.  You're a popular artist.  And HW did say that artists were encouraged to make items for both DS and Poser.  HW didn't say that was a requirement.  So why not do what you do best, and forget the rest?  :-)

Afrodite-Ohki, "I do think the intention as cross-platform content creators is to make the two versions as similar as possible, not exactly the same.."

If you use the same maps, with parameters adjusted, you are close enough and you have saved an enormous amount of time and money.

Quote - Felt the urge to create, thankfully most of the work was done with my right hand (Left dominate but I mouse with my right) as my left is acting up and touching things, like keys on a keyboard, feels something like pins and needles right now. It's also rather stiff.

 

Not sure I will give this away, but it was nice to play with a new "toy"

That's a very pretty dress!  Sorry you're having problems with your hand.  Hope it gets better soon. 

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - I dont know enough about DS to say for sure, but I cant see how the textures would need to made differently.  Especially for something simple like cloth.  recreating the shaders is one thing, but I would expect the lions share of colour, bump, displacement and specular maps would be the same.  Perhaps DS may require you to bake in certain things if its shader system cant replicate the same effects as poser or vice versa... I would hope that would be the exception rather than the rule though...

like I said though, I dont know that much about DS yet

One word....satin ;). In Poser can be made entirely with a shader and I'm nearly certain it won't go over to DS. Of course, I know nothing about DS but with two speculars and two reflects and a host of noodles in between it probably won't ;). Not saying that DS can't do satin...very likely can, I'm just pretty certain it doesn't do it like Poser does. LOL.

Laurie

 

I was afraid to mention this because I didn't want folks to get the wrong impression, or to unintentionally start an app war.

But yes, the shaders and the appearance of shaders between apps are quite different, and there are many effects that can be done in Poser that don't quite have the same effect in DS. Most notable IMO are "ooooh shiny's" and rich velvety fabrics that really seem to "pop" and come alive in Poser but which look more subdued in DS. And I will admit this might be personal preference ...  

Either way, this is an area that I think there will need to be some collaborative effort ... perhaps having someone(s) familiar with BOTH shader systems to offer some good tutorials and advice that explains "this node in Poser is this brick in DS ... this node in Poser doesn't have an equivalent in DS, but if you combine this brick and this brick it gets close".  That kind of thing.  This would help folks on both sides. 

That would be really nice, to have some tutorials out there which gave clues on how to get similar results in both apps.

DS base materials (without any special shaders applied) are pretty drab.  However, many shaders have been made, many of which are free, which greatly enhance materials in DS.  I think the difference in quality is only due to the difference in understanding on how to get the most out of each app.  My textures that I make and set up the materials for consistently look a little better in DS than they do in Poser.  Is it because DS materials are better?  No!  It's because I understand DS materials better.  I try really hard in Poser and sometimes I luck out and they turn out about equal in quality, but most of the time, my DS materials look just a little better.  I think each app has its strengths in the materials department.  I really don't see one as being superior to the other, just different.  I know how to get very vibrant velvet results in DS.  I struggle to do the same in Poser.  It's all a matter of which app works the best with the way our individual brains work.  I don't agree with bashing either program or the people who prefer them. 

Quote - Yeah, yeah, she looks good! But what I want to know is ... did I get my seperate MAT zone for the hip that I asked for?

Yes, yes you did...

:D

By the way, that project I did with poser materials, they all worked in studio as well.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - I think the difference in quality is only due to the difference in understanding on how to get the most out of each app.

...

I know how to get very vibrant velvet results in DS.  I struggle to do the same in Poser.  It's all a matter of which app works the best with the way our individual brains work.  I don't agree with bashing either program or the people who prefer them. 

Exactly! With you on all counts!

Yes Paganeagle, we know that already because you told us so, a couple of pages back.

Quote - Okay, this is going to take a while but.....

The materials I used appear to be working in Studio!!!!!

Now I have 300+ options to check, so as I said, this may take a while!!!

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

But since you've decided to keep this project for yourself, this is just useless information.

Quote - Nice work, same with me, I have decided to keep my project for myself to use.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Have a nice day.

sp

(edited to add quotes)