<< Personally, I think it is much better to have the site owner take responsibility for what is sold in their store>> Hi Diane! I totally agree with you there. I would think that if a site is going to commit to an online store, then inventory responsibility (including quality) should definately be their baby also. Otherwise, the site would become known more for their bad store rep instead of the good forums. The customers are members and if they don't care about the customer, then do they really care about the member? I purchase a LOT of stuff from here, some from 3Dcommune. Heck everyone has seen my credit card at one time or another :) I was taught by one of the best (Diane) on how to test and what to look for. And I'm going to say this and I'll probably get hit on the head for it BUT...if I had a choice..if all things were equal as to the products in the online stores between here and 3dcommune, I would pick the 3DCommune in a heart beat... Know why? Because I know what the testers put those products through, I know how freaking picky they are (I'm one of them) there is no one there that is afraid of hurting a vendor's feelings by asking them to improve their product. We don't necessarily take everything that comes to the store either, we have turned things down because the craftmanship was not there...and I see it turn up here and wonder why. Plain and simple...I spend more here simply because most of the vendors that I buy from are here, unfortunately..why they are not over there too is beyond me...but that is a different subject. All I'm saying is this...the store needs to take responsibility for what it allows in....whether it be customer service, refunds or whatever. It just seems to me that for the past six months it has been more concerned with "how much stuff can we get in here to sell no matter what the quality is and by the way let's tell the vendor that they aren't charging enough and they need to change the prices before we will put it up in the store." (that happened I know for a fact, I have friends that are vendors to and they talk when they are pissed off trust me.) Anyway...I'm probably going to get blasted for this, but it's all the truth. And if I have to go down in flames, at least I can go down knowing I've told the truth :)

Okay, so I can't go back and edit the post. Mehndi, I'm not sure if a "guild" of sorts is a good thing, maybe maybe not. Takes a lot of planning etc as I'm sure you are finding out. I just hope your heart is in the right place for doing this, that's all. But consider this...if an online store is doing it's job, then a guild such as this really wouldn't be necessary. Vendors SHOULD have confidence in the store that they sell their wares at, because they also have a stake in the store's rep, good or bad. They should have faith in their beta testers and the store testers. If they don't then they either need to get new beta testers or a new store, simple as that. Mayhaps with all of the talent at this site, they should turn their energies into doing what you are proposing here, and helping the site that everyone seems to love so much. Just a thought.

{{{{you are talking about gathering a group of talented individuals together who have at one time or another been a victim of the past political structure that haunts this Community even to this day. I can assure you that there would be some of those artists that would completely object to my being in the Guild because of past feelings... and as a result, come a time when you will have to reject a potential artist, or be pressured to do so, by another artist... or some wont accept your invite, simply because "so and so" is already in your Guild.}}}} Jack. smiles You and me babe, go way way back. Few here are ignorant of our past, since we both are most talented at shouting at the tops of our lungs and issuing rallying cries like few others out there. Unfortunately only a few may know, though there is also ample evidence of it out there, that some time back, you and I made our own peace that we found our way to. I consider you my friend. There, said it at last, and out in the open too, so shoot me somebody! You have great skill at organizing people to goals, and moving people forward. In any effort such as this, those skills would be needed. I hope we could have you amongst us in this effort, since we actually DO intend it to be "neutral ground" where all may come together in the name of Quality and bettering ourselves as vendors, artists, members. You would be welcome. Diane. chuckles The days you and I spent, early on, when the store was naught much more than a twinkle in our eyes were some of the best for me ever. We actually DID stand for values and quality, and we stood for them together. You are one of the best testers out there, I know, since I worked with you. Though I know that it is very early on to see how this initiative will all work out, I also know you too would be wanted, and welcome, among us. The past is the past. Let it remain dead and buried.

I cannot see why anyone would be adverse to quality testing of products. I thought, as artists, we were all interested in improving what we create. I thought, that we really wanted "helpful" comments, on our gallery pics. Some of the folks who contributed to this thread have been, understandably, apprehensive about rejection. But, you know, a rejection...and, the necessary redo...is a whole lot better than a bunch of dissatisfied customers, clients, if you will. I saw a question about items being rejected because they were "simple". Simplicity is very often beautiful. In modelling, well simplicity means a low poly count, and that is important to many. It also means less of those obnoxious ugly bumps and ridges that one sees in some models. If there is a group of "friends" behind this movement...Well, don't all movements start that way? Maybe, it is just me, but, I have never started a movement by myself....(well, just a joke here, a bowel movement.) I would like to sell, here, in the r'osity market. But, I have my standards. There are so many things that I consider beyond bad items, that I have wanted no part of the commercial side of this place. And, to the last bit...the ugly part... This grabbed me....Why, because it was sort of what I envisioned when picturing the "secret" vendor forum...Not gossiping about us plain "members". Nope, something far more sinister...Something along these lines. "how much stuff can we get in here to sell no matter what the quality is and by the way let's tell the vendor that they aren't charging enough and they need to change the prices before we will put it up in the store." (that happened I know for a fact, I have friends that are vendors to and they talk when they are pissed off trust me.)

Yes Poppi that last part is ugly.. Ugly because it is based on untruths.. Unless you were in there you can not say it is fact.. I would suggest you chose your friends more wisely, because the ones who told you this have no concept of the truth.. They bald face lied to you. Yes admin will tell us if they think we are under valueing our work but the final decision on price is the vendors... No force is exerted by the store admin.. NO the store admin do not tell us to fill the store with crap. That statement is totally ludicrous. Think about it.. If you want to find out the 'real' truth, then I suggest you put your money where your mouth is.. Put something in the store, see how the process works. Instead of spreading unfounded gossip. I get so pissed off when people who are know not of what, they speak cast doubts and aspersions on anything.

I wasn't going to post in this thread, but the temptation has grown beyond my ability to resist. I'm not going to knock anyone because the concept behind this guild is perfectly sound. A group of known, achieving, established artists testing files prior to sale or free publishing. Brilliant idea. The idea of reviewing products as introduced by Eric I thought was exceptional. An independant non reliant group of people who take an item test the heck out of it and review it. I like that idea a lot and over time the reviews would grow large enough that it would be possible to make an informed judgement on what's purchased based on those reviews. What I don't understand, and please excuse me for my stupidity here is what are the guild offering that isn't already in place? Let me elucidate. The guild will help and publish "tricks of the trade" "secrets of the creators" - in other words, those successful and popular vendors will tell everyone exactly how they do something so that everyone can do better. WIP, Tips and Tricks, Tutorials (all currently existant on Renderosity and 3D Commune, PFO and I believe on Renderotica) There's also the addition of Poser 101 and Bryce 101 (beginners forums) at 3D Commune and the Art School at 3D Commune. There's the Poser forums here, and on all the other sites, 3D modelling forums etc etc. So my question is. Why form a guild to offer services that are already in place rather than using those existing services to achieve exactly what this guild is going to do? Now, my next question. Freestuff. Is it fair to judge that on quality? A LARGE amount of freestuff is from people who are new to the communities. These people are learning and are eager, nay, extremely enthusiastic about sharing what they do. I personally know people that get a HUGE kick out of sharing their stuff and seeing it used in an image, I know I certainly do (though my stuff is gone for now thanks to my site getting shut down). Helping freestuff loaders to learn to make better things is easy. Use the existing infrastructure put in place by 4 online communities to do this. Helping them make better stuff can be done in the aforementioned forums, why "judge" them? Am I misreading that? I have a problem with making a better version of a crap store item and putting it into freestuff. No, really I do. That's nasty. It is. Someone made something to sell, "someone" let it into the store and now someone else is going to judge it and give away a better version? Ouch. Can anyone else see the vitriol and rows that are inherent in this? I do NOT have a problem with a bunch of artists, especially skilled artists who are willing to share knowledge and that skill to help people make better products. That is probably the single most shining example of generosity around. But it's already in place. Why haven't these leading examples of wonderment, these people desperate to share their knowledge and their skill already done so? PhilC is making a cd of his knowledge and including a bunch of in progress files. Steve Shanks is committing what he knows about making clothes to record for others to use. Brycetech has made a huge effort and now there's a new project Posertech in order to address a whole bunch of ideas, problems, tutorials and other stuff to help people. Kozaburo shares his knowledge freely and without complaint. The infrastructure is already here. Why not use it? Why create a "new" guild to do that? I don't get it. Now. What are the ramifications of a guild of artists, a group of "elite" artists testing stuff. None. It would be a great bonus to an item, free or store, to know that it's been approved by the likes of Traveller, Jaager, Steve Shanks, PhilC, Anton etc etc etc. I know I'd be chuffed to bits if one of them turned round and said "Hey I like that file Quest, well done." I'd be proud enough to bust. A seal of approval for goods. Yep, like that too. It means that a group of people we all know for quality goods have looked at that file and said "Yes, that meets the standard we would set for ourselves." A good point of reference I think for purchasing quality items. I like that. But. I can speak for the 3DCommune because I sometimes test goods for them, and I'm hard on them. I know the others are too. It's not a matter of "does it work", it's "Does it work well, does it look good", and a whole bunch of other stuff. There's no favouritism there. For example I recently rejected an item from someone there who I hold in the highest regard because of something I thought would cause a problem. Friendship, respect, doesn't enter into it. Money is at stake, as is the satisfaction of a customer. And that's paramount - especially seeing as I might be that customer. I don't see that the guild is offering much in the way that is different from that. Don't get me wrong here. I approve of the idea of artists gathering to help others achieve the standards they have achieved. I don't understand why the existing infrastructure can't be used. Mehndi, please understand I'm not attacking your idea at all. It's a damned good one. Perhaps as Eric suggested, you focussed like a laser on your primary motivation - quality testing of items - and stayed with that until you were established it might be better than to explore what actually looks like another budding site war. Some of the things your talking about doing with this group of elite artists is here and on other sites already. Please, consider using those facilities to share your skills and knowledge rather than creating further rifts between forums. By all means, gather artists under a Guild banner and follow this dream of quality, it's a good one but it won't mean anything if this blows up into another rift or site war, it will just hurt the community more. There is so much that could be achieved and so many people that could be helped by people like you, Thorne and many other accomplished artists and modellers it would be a shame to see so much talent taken away from this and the other sites and circled around another series of wagons in another site in another set of forums when the existing ones aren't being used to their full potential. Go for the quality control. Let other vendors and artists know that there are respected artists in the guild who will be testing the files. By all means produce a guild "stamp of approval" and discuss this with the existing stores and sites - I'm sure that some of them at least would be willing to listen to you on that subject. But please, don't start tearing the forums apart again. Use them. If the vendors really want to share their "trade secrets" then do so in the existing places. Everyone would appreciate that far more than having yet "another" site in the community. Quality good, splitting of community into elitist sections bad. Did that make sense? I hope so.

So not true Helen. It was a fact, I have no reason to believe that this person would lie. They sell here at Renderosity and do quite well in fact. I didn't say that they decided not to do it, and I didn't say that it was stated to them in the vendor forum either. So, before you start calling people liars perhaps you should get the the full and complete story before you post about something that you know nothing about. It didn't happen to you, but it did happen to someone that you know and have spoken very highly of yourself. You have no clue as to what each individual vendor goes through in private. I would be more then happy to discuss the circumstances with you, but not in a public forum. I do not lie, I have no reason or motive to. I am a customer here as well as a member and have on more then one occasion purchased your products..but you know what? After what you just said, I think you've just lost a customer. Not that you would care anyway, but if you treat me like this in the forum, if I have a complaint or a question about your products, how are you going to treat me then?

To me you made very good sense. When you mentioned pride...well, that is a flaw we all may have. I do think that hurt pride causes alot of problems, in this place. Positive stuff...there is alot that can be implemented in this community. I, for one, would like to see..."classes". Shoot, all the forums have chats, now. I know that I am relatively "new" here. I did not go through the "flame wars". I squawked and squawked, about things that I perceived to be unjust, only to be given some kindergarten style justification by one mod or another, as to why I was wrong. I did not believe....I KNEW the hot 20...Sorry, folks.....Well, if you get 300 hits in a day and a half, and so do a few of your nearest neighbors in the gallery....and, well...hey, now...they make the 20...they have names that are well known...actually, they are vendors...check out old threads in c&d from like, feb., and march, if you think I lie..just type in Poppi. But, I was given the normal, ridiculous, mundane explanation on how the 20 works....Right...my nudes got more Papa Joe Greasy..D's than all the rest. (Even, my friggin CLOWN...omg...too funny.) I am so happy about this guild. I think the playing field should be based on talent, and, quality. Also, I am so tired of people lying to me. It wouldn't make me so upset, if, the ones who do it were at least clever. That last paragraph felt soooo good. I give it a Pop...pop...pop!!!

I wasn't going to post again but... pendarian I do care about my customers.. I care a LOT.. "I have a complaint or a question about your products, how are you going to treat me then" If you have a complaint or question with my product I will do my whatever I can to help resolve the problem I value my customers and if anyone has troubles or concerns with anything I make they are more than welcome to contact me. I do not shun my responsibilites.. Heck I have been known to throw in bonus stuff when people have had downloading problems.. And that is something I can't be held responsible for and out of my control. My way of saying sorry for your inconvenience. However Read Poppies post she implies this is common practice with in the vendor forum.. "Why, because it was sort of what I envisioned when picturing the "secret" vendor forum...Not gossiping about us plain "members". Nope, something far more sinister...Something along these lines." Then you post 'and I didn't say that it was stated to them in the vendor forum ' I see now I was wrong with my statement about the choseing friends and calling them liers and for that I apologise. If what you say is true then it is 'Wrong' very wrong.. Poppi's post does imply this is common practice within the vendor forum.. I have NEVER seen this.

Helen...you seem to have a problem with me. So sorry. However Read Poppies post she implies this is common practice with in the vendor forum.. "Why, because it was sort of what I envisioned when picturing the "secret" vendor forum...Not gossiping about us plain "members". Nope, something far more sinister...Something along these lines." If something is secret...Well, bust my britches....I will just go along and draw my own conclusions, as to why it is secret. Anymore questions? I mean you no harm...honest. I just want things to be a little more equitable, honest, forthright, here. I hate it when folks lie to me. I have been lied to everytime i posted about a "serious" issue, here. If you don't want to be part of the solution...Oh, my...fill it in. Poppi

Oh, and, since I am not in the vendor's forum...Some of this is simply what I copied and pasted from others. Sorry, if I confused you, helen.

Well, I'm not going to argue about this, but to me..Poppi's post doesn't imply that it's standard practice, only that she is afraid that it may be so. Be that as it may, even if it only happened once, that is one too many times. Not everything that goes on between admins or mods or whoever and the vendors is in the vendors forum. The same goes for any of these forums, not everything goes on in the threads. As I stated before, I have no reason to lie, I am not a liar by nature nor do I say things for the shock value or to stir the pot. I do not gossip.(at least not unfounded gossip) I would not have even mentioned the incident except I felt it was relevant to what was being discussed. Next time I won't say a word, I don't like being called a liar in a public forum. I did not say that anyone told any of the vendors to put crap in the stores...none of the vendors I buy from would do it anyway, they'd tell them where to put it if they tried to coherce them into doing that. I was merely stating that this is what appears to be the mentality of the marketplace, anyone can sell anything it seems. I am one of the fortunate ones, I have so far seemed to steer away from most of the less then quality items..but then I investigate as best I can the vendor before I buy. But some of the newbies don't have that luxury, or don't think about it, they assume that because it is in the marketplace and someone is asking money for it, that means it's good. Not any different then going to a store and paying money for a product, the customer does not think that the store would intentionally sell them something that is of substandard quality. It's a matter of trust and it's rapidly eroding in the marketplace and it's very hard to get that trust back. I could speak volumes about quality control and how important it is to a store, no matter where it is. It is important that the store and the vendor work hand in hand, they are on the same team. Every vendor is important, I don't care if they sell one item or ten. Everyone should be held to the same high standard of quality and if they can't, then they need to hone their skills until they can and then be excepted into the marketplace where people spend their hard earned money to support a hobby or a livelihood. Everyone should be given the same consideration, the same treatment the same perks no matter who you are or how much you sell. Anything more then that and then you are pandering to egos and creating resentment and suspicion among other vendors...and that resentment and suspicion spreads to the customers as they hear the complaints of the vendors. It's a vicious circle. I'm sure I'm not saying anything that those that are interested in this thread don't already know. One last thing and I'll close... sharing of knowledge is a wonderful thing. It is what turns a community into a family. Sharing what you know about your craft, whether it be modeling, texturing or how you created a particular render is a gift, not only to those that you share it with, but to yourself also, as you realize just how lucky you are that your talent is such that people want to learn from you. Sharing should come from the heart and not anyone's pocketbook nor should it be reserved just for those that are deemed worthy. It should be for all that thirst for the knowledge. Questor, I think I've been hanging with you way too much :) I agree with what you said..all of it. Pendy

Pendy, so nicely stated.

heya, pendarian! Gotta agree with what you and Questor both said. I think that we DO already have plenty of places for people to share their knowledge and help people along in all the many forums that are already there. I also know that I, too, try to point people in the right direction when I find something that is not quite up to par in their products. And I NEVER play favorites. Everyone misses things sometimes. Even the best of the best. And yes, even the testers miss things sometimes! I don't always have all the knowledge to solve a problem for someone, but there are plenty of places to get that knowledge right there for the asking. Most artists are more than willing to help other people learn, just as they were helped in their learning stages. This community is incredibly generous despite what people seem to be saying about the stores destroying that. What they don't want to do (I've heard this from more than one of the big names) is hand people solutions on a silver platter. Those who are willing to look for the answers themselves (with a little guidance) are going to become the best of the best in their own time. Those that don't want to work at it won't. Poppi, I have to say something to you about the "secret" vendor's forum. There is a good reason for these forums to be private (all of us have them). There simply are things that need to be discussed between vendors and store owners that just don't belong in public. For instance, a question about when the checks are going out. That's just one example. There are other things that should be private, and because these are internet businesses with people spread out all over the world, having a meeting or making phone calls just isn't an option. A vendor's forum just makes it easy to communicate with everyone at once. These are businesses. And no business shares every little thing it does with the public. Not because there's something evil or underhanded going on. Just because it's really not the public's business. Do you share your tax returns or your family meetings with the world?

In answer to the last few posts from Questors on downwards :) Questor, if our goal was to form a new site that competes with the existing sites, I could understand your fears and worries. That is not our goal. Our goal is to form a body of people from all existing communities who share a strong belief and committment to quality levels in all they do :) Indeed, there are existing tutorials out there. I have learned so much from them, and will forever feel gratitude for the time others took to write them. The only problem I have with the current way tutorials and other knowledge shared is handled is it is spread all over the place throughout many seperate tutorials, and seperate sites, and so is rather hard to find and use. Our idea is a bit more comprehensive than that, as you will see once we manage to get a small demo made that I think Dmentia and I will turn our hands to over the next little while. Also it is to be noted, that I will plan to compile pdf versions of the work and place on the various sites. This is not therefore an effort to not use existing sites or draw folks away from those sites. Something to consider, is that we who are speaking, are speaking of our own knowledge that we have, which we have not shared. I have my own style, and some of my own tricks I have developed over time when I craft my work that has never been shared with a soul. It is "proprietary trade secrets", and I have viciously guarded my knowledge of how I do most of it, since frankly I need the money I make from my work to support my son. Dmentia and Thorne also have their own trade secret tricks that have never yet seen publication. So when we were talking amongst ourselves at our own frustration with the quality of work we see, at a certain point we came to the sudden realization that people might not be able to do better unless we ourselves stopped whining about how bad this looked to us, and tried to document what we know, and get others to work with us to document some of their best tricks and techniques, and out and out show people how to do better work. So, I hope that you all see. Our aim is to create something new. Not a new community, but a guild within the community. A guild focussed on Quality concerns, and since one cannot in good conscience judge quality without being willing to reach out and at least try to help folks learn to do better if they are willing to learn, it is also focussed there right now too. As to being willing to review work done by those who do not sell, and instead like to place work in free stuff, why would we ever wish to turn those people away? They are amongst our most noble in the community. If they want their work "kid tested and mother approved" why I'd sit up nights and lose sleep myself to do it for them. I applaud the free stuff artists, they are my heroes, and the heroes of the community, and no one should ever think to want to say they cannot have their things tested if they wished it, and wished to be in the guild with us :) One last note. When one worries about folks who have in the past placed things in free stuff to compete against someone doing a bad job and selling the bad job in a store, you are worrying about ANCIENT history, things that are NOT a guild goal, but were being done before Auntie Mehndi with the Big Stick came along to ride herd on the wee eager band of adventurous and energetic and passionate vigilantes I discovered one day, and harness that passion and power into something good. Forget acts of passion and focus on organized thoughtful efforts.

where to begin.... this is a monster thread, and i became aware of it because there is a link to it posted in the merchant's forum. i guess i'll start there. merchants don't do anything terribly interesting in that forum. honest! it's mainly as (sorry, so many posts ago, i can't remember now G) someone has stated above: vendors questioning admins on if the item they've uploaded 8 days ago is in pending/testing/whatever...or calls for beta testers among other merchants.... or, oh goodness, a cry for help on something. so. nothing sinister. but none of the public's business, either. it's our BUSINESS, our job, our own financial affairs. you wouldn't offer tidbits of personal information to a stranger on the street, about your bottom line, or business practices. why should we? just because y'all can't see and you want to? sorry. poppi? i'm not a terrorist, and i do resent the implication, even if you didn't mean it how it reads :) there are problems with the store, it's not perfect. but i happen to like it better than DAZ, because it's about money, yes, but it's also about community. it is!!! letting people submit stuff to the store, even though it's not the best of the best of the best, sir, is good! the stuff might be bad, but then they don't sell. the good stuff still sells. it's the consumer who seperates the wheat from the chaff, no matter if it's online or not. instead of starting a new guild, efforts should be made to refine and perfect our community. we have great resources here, and so many talented people! i don't want to say anything i'll regret here, so bear with me, please. i've been a member, for a long time. i am not boasting about that, but i have been. i have always been more of a silent active member though, and i've tried very very hard not to step on anyone's toes. if i had a penny for every time i've refrained from saying something, because i knew it would eventually turn around and bite my ass, i wouldn't need to sell anything here G i've made lots of friends here, but more importantly, (as far as i know) i haven't made any enemies. i have probably clashed with mehndi more than anyone else here, though there are no hard feelings on either side... (and mehndi, this whole post that i'm writing is not directed entirely to you, okay? G i do support the quality issue) so, with that said, i'll move on to the guild. i agree wholeheartedly with quality standards. just look at my store, and you'll know this is true. i am not one of the "biggies" here, though i am well known to some. there was a statement made (i'm really sorry, mehndi, but i think we are going to disagree YET again G), about the "little in-house version of a guild" here, and how certain someones would NEVER be part of that, ever ever ever. um, forgive me, but i thought you WERE part of it, and were quite proud and supportive of it, when it first started. i am a member of the 'rosity guild. so? it's not a horrible elitest society, but then, nor is it a true guild. i've already made my thoughts on that public, so i won't reiterate them here, because my fingers are already getting really sore . this new "by the artists for the artists" guild... what do i think of it? well... a couple of things really. Questor has it bang on when he says that the existing infrastructure should be used. it's so true! i honestly don't want to send my stuff for extra testing just to get a seal of approval by people i may/may not respect (and a side note: blind testing? impossible! readme's have artist's names, and are necessary... duh). the idea of copying an existing sale item and making one for freestuff to hurt that person's sales is incredibly abhorrent to me. that's all i'm going to say about that, because i can feel my temper slipping it's leash. if a person, like myself, has already established a rep for quality items, but doesn't send to this guild for their approval seal.... does their stuff suddenly become shit? to those loyal customers, no. but to any new ppl looking, probably. so, in essence, if i want to keep selling, i must bow down and grovel for yet more approval. it's putting vendors between a rock and a hard place, and i for one, refuse to be so bullied. i'm not saying i won't take part in this guild, but i'm not saying i will either. it depends on how it's run, and who's running it. because we all know, (and if you don't, clue in!) that it's not going to be an equal thing here. a guild can't be, there is a hierarchy, no matter how candy coated it is. if the guildmaster is anyone other than someone i know i can trust implicitly, then it's not something i'll take part in, even if my sales do drop. i could say lots more on this, but i promised myself i wouldn't :) i can see this whole thing getting out of control, and quickly. i can see it causing more problems than it's hoping to resolve. helen, dear friend, you are braver than i, and i highly respect you. you once said that you were honoured to call me friend, and i now return that to you twofold! bravo, dear :) finally, i trust the administration of this site enough that for a moderator to lose their position, it would have to be very serious, and that there is much more to the tale than is being volunteered - by anyone. mehndi, i'm sorry you've lost that position, because you have always tried to help people... but i will trust the admin's decisions until and unless every aspect is revealed. oh! and about the pricing? i don't know anyone who was told to change the price of their goods... i was encouraged once to raise the price of one of my characters, and i didn't... though i sure wish i had listened! the store staff are in a unique position, where they can see trends, and can speculate on what the market can bear. because i didn't raise the price, i underpriced one of my later characters, lost lots of sales because of it, and was flamed for starting a "price war". if it has happened that someone more than encouraged, it was very wrong. it should have been brought to russ or tim's attention at the time, so to become a non-issue. pariah... are you sure our daughters aren't twins? G mine has done stuff like that, and i laffed my butt off reading about yours! she sounds absolutely precious! okay. enough for now. there's SO much more that i want to say, but since i had to type the word 'much' 4 times before getting it right G, i think i'm done for tonight. it's waaaay past my bedtime.

i'm going to bed, so any posts regarding my posts aren't being ignored... i will respond if it's necessary :) boy, the temptation's there to say lots more, but... well, dammit, i WILL hold my tongue (fingers G) until tomorrow. peace, and good night!

{{{{there was a statement made (i'm really sorry, mehndi, but i think we are going to disagree YET again G), about the "little in-house version of a guild" here, and how certain someones would NEVER be part of that, ever ever ever. um, forgive me, but i thought you WERE part of it, and were quite proud and supportive of it, when it first started.}}}} Styxx old friend... you have read me wrong. Go back and read it again more carefully this time. What I am saying is that this guild is NOT the in house guild. It is NOT the Renderosity Merchants Guild, which is sales and dollar value focussed, and is closed to anyone who is not selected by admins to be there. This is the Free Market Guild. Two seperate entities. You see, the reason I have had to distinguish this over and over, is that many people seem confused and fearful that it is the Renderosity Merchants Guild we mean when we say "the guild" so blandly without clarifying. Vette too seemed confused since she posted threads asking if people arent happy with the Guild, when she heard about our guild in the making. She was asking about hers. We are talking about ours. Horses of a very different color. It started there, and the confusion has spread outwards. Just trying to keep reminding people this is NOT that guild, wont be, is not, hasnt the same goals, and there are certainly room for many guilds with many goals in any online community ;) Go ask the MUD folks if you don't believe me ;p

Ah one more thing Styxx, when you say this: " i'm sorry you've lost that position, because you have always tried to help people... but i will trust the admin's decisions until and unless every aspect is revealed." Does this mean that you would like me to post to someplace or another all the documents that do reveal everything, totally raw and unedited and captured by Adobe Acrobat? Indeed, it would be clearer to you then. I have held back my hand on doing so, other than to issue a warning to this community, at the cost of my job, that there is a person inside the administration, JeffH, who has ill will toward anyone who would become involved in this guild, and has said so, and has even stated his wish to ban these people. This is true, he said so in front of many many witnesses, twice. Anyone who is telling you it did not happen is lying to you. For revealing the danger those of us who participate in this guild are in, they say I have violated admin privacy and moderator guidelines. You see, administrators are allowed to threaten you in private, but no one is allowed to tell you that you are being threatened :)

Styxx: it depends on how it's run, and who's running it. because we all know, (and if you don't, clue in!) that it's not going to be an equal thing here. a guild can't be, there is a hierarchy, no matter how candy coated it is. Also WHAT it does exactly... which is not even decided yet. I wish this had been a bit more formed before making it out into the open. Unfortunately, everything that gets posted at Renderosity recently is taken in a negative light. The same thing posted at 3dcommune is taken positively and encouraged. I don't know why, it just is. (Example: kupa's post on registration.) Even as I type that, I'm tempted to add cynical comments here! Instead, I'll try to be supportive in case this does produce something good, and why should it not? What are the chances of it becoming a positive thing? Only as good as you're willing to give it! You guys planning on starting this guild, go for it, let us know when people can join in and where, and see how much good we can do :) Goodluck! By the way, Cake1 started a beta tester's database... I don't know what's happened to it but it might help somewhere along the line. It's still at http://www.cakeone.com/test/ Ok, now stop bickering about stuff and go MAKE stuff! ;)

I agree April. It was not our intentions to bring this to light just at this time, since we wished to get organized and have a properly written up FAQ of our basic ideas first :) But poopie happens ;p I confided in my boyfriend rcook, who mentioned it into the administrators forum, where JeffH and others took alarm and began to watch for this happening, then when I mentioned that there were people about to work on making some radical changes around here in the moderators forum, I was pounced on like a junebug by a duck, trying to get me to reveal more, and what is more, reveal who was in this effort. Vette next began threads querying the vendors to try to see who is in this effort. So at that juncture, I decided to go public and field questions as best as I could, as fast as I could for a long as I could, before this idea gets thwarted before it can even begin. We will be organizing a place where proper discussions by anyone interested can join in, sort of a meeting place as it were, and maybe some live online meetings if anyone has interest in those. I will announce where those will be soon. Waiting to hear back from Thorne on an offer we have had to give us a place to host discussions on this matter for all who might like to come discuss :)

Thats nice to hear Mehndi. Very nice. Because I can't think of anything more criminal than the collection of knowledge away from those who need it. I'm a firm believer in sharing what I know and I go to great lengths to help people sometimes. I have never held with the concept of charging for my knowledge or keeping my knowledge to myself, that is in my opinion selfish. Knowledge does not make an artist, a builder, a pilot, a trucker. Skill does that. You say you've kept tricks to yourself that help you. OK, keeping those tricks to yourself may have hurt others who could have done with that knowledge. Sharing your knowledge will not create clone Mehndi's selling in the store, not everyone will have the skill for that. Same with other artists. Only a very few can make hair like Kozaburo, and he shares his knowledge and tricks enthusiastically, yet I don't see any hair anywhere remotely like his. Each person is individual. The sharing of knowledge helps a person discover their level of skill and their individuality. I like that you would want to post a file of the combined knowledge of all in the guild. Erm, what's stopping anyone doing that now? In the tutorials sections of here, 3DCommune, PFO, Renderotica? I was concerned because of what you said early on. But the guild didnt want to stop there, the guild also wanted to offer the best possible resources to new artists...A place where the artist could go to learn all the tricks of the trade before venturing out into the market...A place to all learn together These references to a place that went through your posts... What other conclusion could I draw than you were going to form a site for sharing that would later charge people to enter so only the more wealthy could learn. That bothers me on a deep level. Your last paragraph is interesting because I wasn't referring to the past, I was referencing something you said. The goal is simply to release into free stuff excellent quality merchandise by the guild artists, as they have time, can afford it (since so many of the artists actually derive their literal money they live off of from making products for Poser), and feel like it. If these items released to free stuff happen to be a better crafted solution that saves customers from spending money on a product which is being sold somewhere that is inferior, then the goal has been served, as well as the community. Not "ancient" history at all, it's a threat of future action. There seems to me that there is a lot of thinly veiled threats there. As in. When "we" (the guild) judge your store item inferior and it is sold, we will release better product in the freestuff to teach you a lesson. Maybe I'm seeing boogeymen where there aren't any, and excuse my paranoia, but surely you can see what "could" be read into some of these guild concepts you are telling us about. I appreciate this is early stages and ideas are being hashed out. But in all honesty I don't see anything except the "seal of approval" - and that in theory is answered by Eric at InDepth and their reviews - that the guild is offering that can't be answered in the existing infrastructure. Collation of knowledge and tricks of the trade. Yes, but that too can be done in the existing infrastructure. The forums, tutorial and art class areas, beginners forums and current facilities are all in place without a need for a guild to contribute. All the individual artists could still share their knowledge, their skills, their tricks and tips. Of course, the existing infrastructure doesn't have in place any facility to charge for these things, but isn't that the whole point? Colleges and Universities that offer an industry level qualification charge. Are you going to do that? If not, what exactly is the possibility of a future charge being discussed for and what benefits will be accrued by paying said possible future charge? I can only ask questions based on what I read. So if I'm getting things wrong, I apologise. There are aspects of this "guild" that I do find distressing. The primary one is that of elitism. This is something that gradually destroyed the medieval guilds. They became very choosy over who could join and what position they could hold, the guildmasters became wealthy powerful individuals who also became extremely selfish, so I'm not sure the parallel should be drawn with your guild if it's intentions are as honourable as you suggest. I don't think that the seal of approval is a bad idea, unless there is the possibility that certain items because they're produced by certain people will be refused or rejected just "because" - another problem that was created by the medieval guilds leading to the so-called secret societies like the Stonemasons etc. Again, parallels can be very dangerous when they're used. I can see how some people would consider this yet "another" barrier to overcome. Beta testing, store testing, reviews, then guild approval then it can be sold with confidence. That's a heck of a lot of hoops to jump through. I agree that no one person is perfect. One person might miss something in an item they are testing for the store that another might pick up. But that is where standardised check lists come in. All manufacturers of goods follow this procedure. I have no idea if the testers for 'rosity goods do because I have no involvement here in that respect. I do have a check list for goods for my own use and that check list has been created over time from my own experience of making characters, textures, static props etc. And this is another thing. Everything I learned, everything. I taught myself. The tutorials I desperately needed - like joint parameters - were not available. So, like so many other people at the beginning I learned the hard way how to do it. Since then I've done what I can to share the knowledge and skills I've acquired. I like to think I'm doing a good job of that and I never turn someone down if I can help. I also never turn someone down if they ask me to make something. If I can do it, I will, and it is their's free to do with as they will. This is backed up by evidence so I am not telling lies here. I do not charge for anything I do. Because when I did need help there were people who helped me to the best of their ability freely. I really hate the thought of paying for knowledge and that is the one thing guaranteed to get a hostile reaction from me. I know I'm not perfect, nor am I highly skilled. I muddle through the best I can. People do sell their work through the stores and I have no objection to that at all. Some for pocket money, some to buy other store goods, some to live. Whatever the reasons for selling items is not for me to analyse and I care not. I will buy what I perceive to be quality and what I "need" that I either can't make, can't get free somewhere else, or can't do without. I'm one of those stingy sods who has to justify every penny. :) You have some grand ideas which quite frankly are already addressed and are not being utilised. I approve of the "seal of approval" but for obvious reasons this creates it's own problems and will generate claims of cliqueism and elitism. I'm not asking you to stop, I'm not asking you to give it all up as a bad idea. I am asking that you consider your position and motives and investigate the existing systems that are in place for helping, guiding, advising and sharing. Perhaps I am being paranoid, and perhaps I'm reading words that don't actually mean what they appear to mean, but your proposal of a guild worries me. It worries me as much as the introduction of the store worried people all those many months ago, and the introduction of "pay to enter" sites bothered people more recently. The community. By that I mean, Renderosity, 3DCommune, PFO and Renderotica are here to serve people. Serve them with goods in a store, goods in freestuff, free advice, help and a friendly atmostphere. In the main this is working and is successful. I don't understand why you and the other "best of the best" can't use these systems. As I said. Quality good, splitting of community into elitist sections, bad. The creation of a guild is an honourable idea and one that's been tossed around for a lot longer than 3 weeks. I'm aware of that idea being thrown around at the PFO before Renderosity was born and I also remember who was involved in that idea. It didn't happen for all sorts of reasons. What bothers me is not the creation of the guild, but the implications of it's creation and the implications of it's future condition. I will reserve my judgement on your attempts to form a guild until you've got a more defined policy in place and have some firm facts and documentation to hand out. Until then, while this is the only place I can discuss the thing, excuse my worries.

mehndi: i didn't confuse the two guilds. i was tired, but still not that stupid. i'm saying this: POST#30"Invitation Only? Why NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! I would NEVER be involved in anything like that, ever ever ever. " you are/were involved in the in-house guild, and proud and supportive of it in the beginning. this guild is by-invitation-only, sales-related membership, so this above statement by you is hypocrisy. (the in-house guild really has no goals, which i think could be remedied without too many problems.) and ABSOLUTELY NOT, would i EVER ask for details on something so private, mehndi. it was none of the public's business (until you made oblique references about it to the public). i don't expect to have to share private business with others, nor do i expect it in return. why you were removed from your "office", i truly, truly don't even care. but the way you've referred to it makes people distrust the administration. russ and tim and the rest are good people, overall, faced with a difficult job. they've never broken the faith with me, and until/if they do, i won't break it with them. that's really all i care to say on that. if that's naive of me, so be it :) and i still agree with questor, who says basically everything i want to say, only better.

Ooooooh you guys should see it! There's gold lining the floors and the walls and we eat lobster thermador and we puff on cigars while we chuckle in our elitest way about how much better we are than everyone else and how we should pay no mind to the crowd gathering around the guillotine and the pounding on the door below....

Questor, we have never once said we will charge anyone for anything. In fact earlier in this thread, someone asked how we would plan to have testers paid for their time, and it was a new thought, a new idea, since honestly it had not occurred to me that testers should or would need to be paid ;) I would not be asking to be paid. But as I said then, way up the thread, if someone wished to keep a model of mine they had tested as their payment, I personally would not object to that. I am sure others too feel that way. As for again, your fears that the guild would encourage people to Free Stuff, notice I said, "if someone happens to..." meaning I will not condemn it, nor encourage it. It is not my place. Nor will I personally knowingly target someone my own self. Have I the ability to understand why some here are doing this, or have done this? You bet your boots I can understand it, but I am offering a way to make a real contribution to the community as an alternative to vigilante activism. A way to achieve the same ends (one can hope in time), without resorting to need to Free Stuff. In all movements there are revolutionarys. They generally start out independent lone wolfs, acting almost as vigilantes. We have a few in the community. I found a few, and I can understand how they feel. I can even understand thinking of Free Stuffing. But I have not personally done so, choosing instead to think of a way to turn the energy and frustration towards good. When I mention a place, a site, etc, yes, no doubt we will form up a small website someplace, with our FAQs, our tutorials, etc also on them. Membership rosters maybe. Perhaps even a list, gallery, whatever, of things that have been tested and approved, since right now, quite frankly, we do not even know if any community out there will let us post our knowledge base, or let anyone use the Free Market Guild Logo. Many people and organizations have small websites. They do not in any way detract from the communities. Do not be so evil your own self as to assume our right to have such a website about our activities would be an evil thing on our part. You speak in ignorance and in fear, on what you do not understand yet. As to not sharing what I know, that is not quite literally true. I think if you check back through this forum, and the merchants forum (assuming you can get there), you will find I am fairly active (around 2500 posts in the last year alone) and alot of that effort in posting is trying to help everyone I can help. What I have not ever had time or energy yet to do was to write many tutorials in a formal sense. For that you would condemn me? I come now to offer to do so, and I am condemned because I have not already done so ;) I am amazed. With treatment like this, do you see where one could indeed turn all snobbish and want to keep ones energies for ones own self and owns personal friends? Thank god I respect the community more than that!

One more point I forgot to address of yours Questor, your point of how you give away things folks need you to make for them. So too do I. We have in the store a lady selling a faerie, whose source of wings for her faerie fell through on her. I made her wings so that she could go on selling. Lost sleep to do it. Did not charge her. Take no money off her sales. We had people here needing a decent non-adult texture for their Millenium Kids models, I have made them one and given it to them freely when they write and ask. I cannot post it, since the same texture is for sale on a product at Daz, and my redistribution of it is by special arrangement with Daz, thus it is not in free stuff, though I may make an effort to get with Daz on permission to post it. We have a lady who needed a very fancy arch for a render, I have been working on making it for her, simply because I CAN make it ;) (not done on it yet Debbie M, sorry, got waylaid by a spate of depression over the WTC and Pentagon mess... but Im back at it)... etc. So NEVER dare to judge me... because frankly, you don't know me.

And now to you Styxx old pal. {{{{you are/were involved in the in-house guild, and proud and supportive of it in the beginning. this guild is by-invitation-only, sales-related membership, so this above statement by you is hypocrisy.}}}} No dear. I was put into it the same way you, and everyone else was. Just told we were there. That we should be proud, great things were coming down the pike. I was NOT involved in the formation of it, the idea of it, the basis of it's membership status, being invitation only. This is what I am referring to. I would NEVER be involved in choosing to make something invitation only, if I were the one doing the planning. I fought a VERY hard fight to make that guild NOT invitation only, in the Administrators Forum, to no avail. The decisions on what it was were made by tammymc, Vette, and whomever else does these things. I was not listened to, nor consulted. Still... just like us all, I waited to see if great things came of it, if it had some real purpose, if it grew into a good thing. That is no crime and it is no sin, patience, and waiting to see. Unfortunately, another than what I told them it was at the time they announced it in the admin forum, just another best sellers list, it has not been anything. So... stop looking to pick a fight, it profits you and me nothing :)

Hmmm...a note about sharing trade secrets...its a noble idea and all, but its not un-noble to not do so...look at Colnel(sp?) Sanders(kfc) several restraunts do it, probablly because being a chef is alot like being an artist...if you tell everyone exactlly what your secret ingredient is, it kinda looses its novelty...Look at that masked magician guy?...he kinda ruined all the old illusions for the old school magicians...because he shared "trade secrets"...if doing that were such a noble thing, then why does he still wear a mask?...I mean realistically what is the point of copywriting work, ideas or inventions if everything should be common knowledge?...What is the point of bothering to learn things on your own and push the limits of what ever you're working with if everyone should be given everything at birth?...I'm not saying sharing is wrong, I share plenty, but I am saying telling me I'm bad for not sharing something is kinda ludicrious...

Well said Dmentia. A point that I should have made. Thank you :)

There are things you've said Mehndi that settled some unease I had. However. First thing Mehndi, before I answer your other comments, you ever call me evil again and you are going to have a really serious problem. You don't know me, don't ever make that judgement again. I have not judged you, nor accused you of anything and I fully expect an apology from you for that statement. HOW DARE YOU ACCUSE ME OF EVIL. I am asking questions that concern me, if you think that asking questions is evil you're in the wrong place and your guild idea is worthless. I fully expect a public apology and retraction for that. Damn you for that. I made the comment about how "I" do things so that you could better understand my concerns with the way you were phrasing your "guild". Nor did I voice any opinion about how YOU do anything, I made no judgement, no accusation, pointed no fingers nor did I name any names. So where again did I deserve that rebuke? Again I want an apology for an unfair and inaccurate accusation. I am very concerned about the elitism this threatens. I did not say it WOULD happen nor that you were promoting it. All I'm concerned about is further fracturing of the communities and a resource pooling of skill and knowledge that is inacessible to people. You addressed that, what a shame you had to result to deep and personal insults to do it. This site, 3DCommune, PFO, Renderotica already offer what you want to do, yet you steadfastedly refuse to utilise this structure, rather prefering to refer to a guild absent from all this, sharing when possible through it's beneficence. The only thing nobody offers, except Eric at InDepth is any form of review or quality level. If you read back over my posts you'll notice I'm quite enthusiastic about that and your idea of a guild stamp of approval on goods. As I have repeatedly said, I don't have a problem with your guild, so get off the high horse. Seeing as you obviously can't have a conversation or answer questions without twisting a person's motives I will wash my hands of this entire affair. I do not feel I desesrved to be insulted in such a despicable manner for voicing concerns and asking questions. I didn't insult anyone, nor did I point any accusatory fingers at anyone. Thanks for showing yourself in your true light. Is this the future? Someone shows a little dissent and would like clarrification and you insult them? Some guild that's going to be. I'm sorry Mehndi but you were way off base, and I am not impressed in the slightest. Evil? Judgementary? Who's making the accusations and judgements here madam? I dearly hope you will never repeat this nonsense if your guild gets off the ground with anyone else, because this is a sign of what went wrong with the original guilds. Thank you for opening my eyes.

Questor, I have not actually called you evil (or was not meaning to do so at least). I am asking you to not resort to the very evil you fear we are resorting to, by judging us and looking for flaws in the system that are not yet there. Thus my wording to not be so evil your own self as to think us evil. It was clumsy wording however, and it has not been my intent to insult you in any way. I am exhausted, as are we all here, with wrangling with this turning into some war some are seeking to make this into for their own private agendas. I have not even been bothering to deign to address the ones anymore who seem to be warring on a private agenda basis... only the people who seem to have valid and real questions, and are seeking real truths. Thus my answers to you in the latter posts. I know it does not mean much to you right now, but that I have been making an effort to answer you specifically is a sign of respect. Forgive me for being more aggressive than was my intention, and for hurting your feelings, since that was not my intent. So, one more question to answer. Why we are not using the communities as they stand for this? We are. It is from the very communities as they stand that we believe we can find enough artists who share our beliefs and want to be one of us. But we cannot confine this to the communities as they stand, since this is neutral, and it is not beholden to a community for its existence, and primarily and most importantly, we the founders are Daz artists... neutral artists without a community grounding as such.

I'll answer you Mehndi, because you deserve an answer, and were gracious enough to offer an apology in the form of a request for forgiveness. I offer that and I am grateful for that. Thank you. As I said earlier, and I think a lot of other people who haven't responded to this thread but are reading it will agree, I will reserve judgement on your guild until such a time that you have a more firm agenda and documentation to present to the communities. I do not, have not and am not objecting to your formation of a guild of artists. I AM voicing my concerns and concerns that I feel are shared by others who don't want to get involved in this. I do not know of any war being fought on a private agenda, but I am not privvy to what is happening behind the scenes or in your private mail box. Nor do I wish to know. I have my own concers, and as I said, while this is the only place I can discuss them then I will have to resort to this. Once you have somewhere - as you mentioned earlier - then I will be more than happy to take this discussion elsewhere and talk to you on a different level where perhaps you'll have a firmer idea of what exactly it is that you intend to achieve with your guild, how it's going to work and what the future is. I do have strong, and I feel valid concerns about this process. I will do you the honour of bowing out of this thread until you announce or tell me of this other place we can discuss this, or don't as is your choice. It is not my intention to further a personal agenda or any other kind of agenda. My intention is quite simply to set my own mind at rest that this is not another build up to yet another site war and fracturing of the community. I don't care what other people think about the guild, I really don't. The intentions of a guild can be quite honourable and can be a great service to the class of artisan they serve. The structure is all important, as is the honesty, integrity and fairness of it's heirarchy and leadership. Those are points of discussion for another time. Anyway. I will leave you in peace. For now. If given the opportunity I will be happy to contribute or simply discuss this idea of yours. If not, I will continue with my life as I have been and simply wish you luck. If you truly are intending to do as you say then this is certainly a shining beacon for all current and future new members. Excuse my pesimism, I have seen too many great ideas twisted by a few strong willed individuals. I look forward to your presentation of a discussion forum and a set of documents detailing the guild, it's aims, it's agenda and the future vision of it's staff.

Just a few more questions. 1.) Why is it important to seek a global solution to a what is by all visible signs a localized problem? 2.) Do you think that this will cause consumer product confidence disparties in products that never attempted to be rated under your system? 3.) Do you plan to draw up a public list of non-subjective rating qualifications so that artists can dispute your findings if the appear to be at odds? 4.) Do you plan to have variable ratings, or one size fits all? 5.) Do you intend to purposely seek out products, as a guild, you find to be lacking in quality in order to have the guild replace said products with freestuff, or stuff of lesser price? (which as a side note is against the law for any organization with busniess ties to the market in question.) Thanks.

smiles Questor, you have asked fair questions, and thought provoking ones. When I manage to get us a discussion board set up just for this very topic, you will be among the first I notify of where it is, and you would be most welcome. It has been a hard last couple of days. For your understanding and your patience toward me, I thank you :)

Oh and two more questions. Sorry to bug ya. 6.) A lot of content developers like myself do a considerable amount of private testing before release. Do you think that the testing-process duration of the guild would severely impact the release dates of products?Coordinating a test panel could be complicated when the test panel is made up of artists who are developing their own products. 7.) How do you plan to deal with issues of "conflict of interest", where and artist submits a product to the guild, but one of the panel members is developing a similarly themed product?

Heya Mallenlane, a few answers as best as I can :) 1) I am not sure what you mean by localized problem, maybe if you define that better for me I can get you an answer that does not make me sound like a doofus ;p 2) Our aim is to give consumers more confidence in what they purchase. Not less. 3) Yes, first we will hold a public discussion where all may contribute ideas on what are good things to check for, what good quality means, to help us to build a checklist as it were, off of :) Then this checklist as it were, will be publically published, and if anyone wishes us to test their work for them, they will get a report card that is easy to understand, going right down the checklist, with hopefully helpful comments on how they might better do something, if there was anything we thought they might do a bit better on, and in time, links to a knowledge base on how to do it, but at the least being willing to point out to the person how to achieve this in communications with the person. Following those suggestions would be their own choice. These tests will be communications, so that the person may then even respond, "ah but you misunderstood, I meant it to be that way, and this is why... it is a feature..." etc, which would then be taken into account before a "final grade" was issued. 4) I have stated in the mechants forum when asked a similar question that in art, as in all things, there is no one size fits all. Sometimes one will need to actually think and use ones wits when scrutinizing something. To give you an example. Last night I made two blocks. One with bevelling, one without. Technically the one without the bevelled edges should have shown a rendering artefact inside Poser. However, in my tests, suprisingly enough, it rendered clean with sharp edges. Now, if that block came to me, and I was going down the list, and got to the part that says, "Are the sharp edges of a model beveled so as to produce clean sharp edges upon render inside Poser?" I would have to conclude that in this case, it had been found it was not necessary, since with my very own eyes I could see it had all worked out fine, even without the bevelling, so no points would be counted off for that. See? 6) As I said to Questor, and in other threads higher up, several times already, no. I won't stop others who do so. I won't try to hunt them down. I know some are out there. We offer them a way to vent their frustrations with the quality issue in a constructive manner, and I hope in time anyone who is doing so will turn their energies and passion toward the Guild and a way that we can improve quality in a good way that hurts no one :)

Eeks, got my numbers out of order. Mallenlane, #6 above is answer #5 to your question #5. Sorry. On your other questions: 6) I hope that it would not be too much of a holdback, not much more in fact than the holdback in how long testing takes out at Daz. But alot of that depends on how swamped we get with testing, and how many testing volunteers we have to draw upon, so it is hard to answer at this point. One is not prohibited from going to release on something just because it has not yet been tested in fact, just like my things over at Daz are selling nicely despite the fact I am still waiting my turn for In Depth Artist to test and review them :) All things take time. How long you wait for release is your own choice. 7) Someone who is charged with such a duty would have to be tidying up things submitted so that identifying info like names in readme files and such is not included, and just giving a product a number instead, etc, before passing it on to testers. So that part has been thought out, trying to create a double blind system, where as much as can be possible, identities of submitters items are veiled, as are identities of who tested your work. As to other conflicts of interest that could arise, we will cross that bridge when and if we ever get there ;)

ok a rehash ;) 1.) I meant the problem appears to be centered around he renderosity store. Other stores don't seem to be affected with the concerns that guild is being formed to respond to. Shouldn't the focus therefore be on the problem? Local solution for a local problem. 4.) I meant in a more factual and accountable sense. Such as 1 - 5 numerical ratings, or bronze, silver, and gold stars? Or will it simply be approved or not approved?

and again on question 7. =) 7.) The concern was not so much that they would know the identity of the person sumbimiting. my concern was with the possibility of: a.) the panel member's review being colored by comparisons of their own product against the submitted one. b.) the panel member's product design being influenced by the product they are reviewing.

1.) Why is it important to seek a global solution to a what is by all visible signs a localized problem? Its not really as localized as it seems, and the solution isnt as narrow as it seems...Not only would the guild help to insure quality for customers, but it will also help customers to find sites that often get overlooked...Lesser known artist who do quality work will deffinatelly stand to benefit from the additional exposure...Customers may be more inclined to trust individual artist rather than being "forced" to trust the more established business'... 2.) Do you think that this will cause consumer product confidence disparties in products that never attempted to be rated under your system? I hope it doesnt cause customers to loose faith in artist who are already established and choose not to have thier products tested, that is not the intent...Instead FMG will be geared more towards the developement of "universal" standards which may be above or below some "personal" standards...So artists who already set high standards for themselves shouldnt loose business other than in the respect that there will be more "qualified" competition... 3.) Do you plan to draw up a public list of non-subjective rating qualifications so that artists can dispute your findings if the appear to be at odds? That is the plan eventually, no negative review will ever be posted publiclly without the creators consent...This isnt about making people look bad, its about allowing those who do "quality" work to shine... 4.) Do you plan to have variable ratings, or one size fits all? The plan at the moment is fairlly variable and objective, like a report card some what...but it could change as this is one of the many things that still needs work...something that members will probablly work till CG become obsolete, as standards change to keep up with progress... 5.) Do you intend to purposely seek out products, as a guild, you find to be lacking in quality in order to have the guild replace said products with freestuff, or stuff of lesser price? (which as a side note is against the law for any organization with busniess ties to the market in question.) This has been addressed and but for the record, no...the intent of the guild is to allow quality work to shine...not to make any one look bad...or to hurt any one...(I'm curious as to which laws you are talking about though, because I'm thinking just about every company on the planet competes with competitors in exactlly that way...wether they admit it or not...A couple in particular that come to mind is Microsoft and AOL)

Ok, let me try again here too then :) 1) Well... it is not our place we feel, to point fingers to which places may or may not have a problem. If Renderosity does have a problem and wants to work toward fixing it, that is a very good thing. Seeing such a grass roots effort rise up amidst them from artists on the calibur of Thorne, Dmentia and myself should be a wakeup call for any store, and personally were I managing it, I would be doing some serious change making and doing it fast, since their tailfeathers are afire and their ass is acatching ;) 4) Yes, there will be hopefully a checklist, but you add it up in the end to get points. Like "Cutesy ABC Blocks" achieved 80 points, + the fact that it actually did not need bevelling to look good upon testing, so a FREE 5 points as if it had been bevelled since it still looks great, brings it to 85 points, and we can proudly say that most folks out there will be satisified :) 7) People are humans. This occurs everywhere :) It occurs at Daz :) I know for a fact ;) I submitted two adorable child models at the very second poor Chad was proudly getting ready to roll his out. We worked out a solution, and we are both pleased as punch ;) I rely on honor, integrity, decency, maturity, and mostly posted and clear ethics, and commitment to those ethics. It is not our place to resent someone elses product that might compete with our own and let it affect our ability to do things. I also rely on people having the good sense to voluntarily refuse to test something, if they are asked, then discover it is something giving them a conflict of interests in any way.

Last word on it in this thread I swear.... I live in the same city as EdgeNet, Bondware, and the Renderosity Forums. I have met personally, face to face with both Tim and Tammy Choate at different times. My personal opinion of these people is that they are very likeable and courteous, they work hard at what they do and they take pride in their work, which is something to be commended in itself. The fact that I may disagree with some of their business practices does not take away whatsoever from the good light in which I hold them personally. Being something of a rogue around here, my well intentioned mischief making doesn't sit too well with some of the administration I'm just sure. Tim and Tammy have always treated me with the highest respect and I appreciate that from them. Some of the statements made seem to indicate that many of you believe that this very real community here at Renderosity is a democracy. It most assuredly is NOT. While they do attempt to listen to ideas and suggestions and implement some of these, the bottom line lies always and forever with the people who operate this system and no amount of posts, flames, begging, pleading, or appealing to reason is going to change some things once they have been declared THE LAW OF THE LAND. The recent uproar over the quite [adjective here] ruling on nudity is a case in point. Though the vast majority of members, at least the ones who speak out publicly concerning such things, disagreed with the sweeping scope of this rule. No one was ever told, to my knowledge, exactly where the rule originated. Howver, the rule still stands. Though to the administration's credit it was re-worded to be more generic as it applies to store merchandise. As the non-democratic status applies to the store, HA!!! No amount of goading, prodding, complaining, glorifying, praising, or cussing is going to change some things. One of those things seems to be to let anyone who can claim a copyright to any old thing put that in the store to sell for whatever price, as long as it is packaged according to the guidelines. Some people here seem to be worried about the poor vendors who are selling this lesser quality (I'm being nice) merchandise, even to the point of calling it 'despicable' that someone would DARE to try to make something better and give it away free as an alternative. Your loyalties are honorable, though misplace. What about the poor buyers who may end up with something that doesn't work correctly or is just plain poorly constructed in the first place? What is this I'm hearing from vendors?? Let them (the buyers) BEWARE??? Beware of what? What do you think the buying public here thinks about a vendor with that attitude? Lastly, this is a grassroots movement in a large community. It will survive despite the efforts of some to mow it down with ridiculous statements and accusations of 'elitism' and greed... I say the following to the good of my cause, but to my own disfavor and likely detriment of future opportunities- If I was about greed, I would release everything I have in my quite extensive personal character inventory, along with all the props, textures, the old Poser3 characters, and every single little odd and end good or bad piece-O-crap 3D THING I have ever concocted sober, drunk, asleep, or otherwise over the past 3 and a half years, and release to the several brokers around here who regularly write me REQUESTING that I do so. The sad thing is, I could release all of that stuff HERE. IN THIS PLACE. Because even the stuff that I made myself but wouldn't pass my own inspection, would pass HERE. We'll be back with some examples and a hardcore set of standards for you, soon. Thorne =};-}>

Thorne... you make stuff in your sleep... now THAT'S impressive. :) I need to figure out that trick... will that be one of the tutorials that you'll make once you're all up and running... "3D Modeling in your sleep, in 3 easy steps"? (I am joking in case anyone thinks I'm being serious, and I'm not trying to belittle anyone's posts... just trying to inject some humor into a rather hot topic...) running and hiding now

grins good one Cin ;) Humour is always a joy at times like these, keep it up :) And don't worry about the old Pooka, he has a broader and vaster sense of the fine honed prank and joke than most ;p

Damnit I haven't posted here since the split with 3dCommune.However I can't let this crap go on without putting in my 2 cents. While having a group of "totaly Bipartisan" group placing a "SEAL" of approval on a model could be benificiant to the community as a whole. I question the MOTIVES of the so called impartial jury whom have APPOINTED themselves to this endevor.All I can say is follow history on ALL of the Poser sites, and let that be your guide, some of these so called Freedom Fighters for justice and "high quality" goods have shall we say a TARNISHED record. Enough said!!!

I must give credit to the owners and admins of this site for their patience and support of free speech. I see three people openly undermining the Renderosity Marketplace and suffering no consquences. Dementia, Mendhi, and Thorne publicly denounce the quality of merchandise in the store, Thorne admits to releasing higher quality versions of items in the store for the sole purpose of undermining sales. I mean, if that's not an attempt to sabatoge the store, then what is? I see what's coming here, what's coming is a split between these three and Rosity, only they want to make it public and as nasty as possible so they can steal as many members as possible, create a new site, which, even though don't say it now, will contain all of their products and only the products they deem good enough. By combining their assessts, they will be able to reap 100% of the sales of their items and not the standard 50-50, 60-40, or whatever else there might be. This is an attempt to make more money cleverly diguised as community concern. Thorne pulled all of his free faeries because the realisation struck him that he missed the "Gravy Train", so to speak. Dmentia - you complain about lo-q merchandise hurting your sales, ever think that the fact that you havent released anything new since June might have something to do with it? And a $25.00 texture set for P4? How about that $142.00 cd. That's only $7.00 less than the whole Poser Pro Pack. (well at one time anyway.) Mendhi - I like the way you openly brag about how great your sales are. I went through the last 30 days best sellers list. Sorry you're having such a bad month. Must be a fluke or something. Word has it your are conferring with JDK about this guild. Some may like Jack, some may not, I'm indifferent, BUT, Jack is a shrewd businessman with a great talent in making money. He's also the top drama queen for nasty site splits. hmmm..... Thorne - I remember you saying something a while back about building all of your faeries around one base model, just a little tweek there and a little tweek here, change the clothing...bingo! "New" character. I mean instead of going out of your way to CYA, why don't you all just come out and admit you are going to start a new site, with a new store, and save everyone the trouble of yet another mindless site war. Really, 2 out of the 3 have been accused of intellectual theft. Yah yah I know, I know...you were both cleared of all wrong-doing....but so was OJ, baby. Like I said, I give the admins and owners of this site a lot of credit. Id have site-banned the three of you a long time ago. I mean conidering how bad you think everything is over here, one would think you'd be grateful to have the out. I don't come here often because I can only use a comouter when I come to visit my brother as my faith prohibits the use of electricity and running water. It is always fun to come and live in the new world. Cheers, Karl "Leggs-Akimbo" Stoltzfus The Digital Amishman

Heya Leggs Akimbo... I always did wonder that about Amish folks, why they will use technology so long as they are not owning it? Like running over to use the neighbhors phone instead of owning one ;) It was a very mysterious thing to me. Be that as it may, I have more respect for your faith despite it's mysteries to me, than you evidently have toward us. Let me address a few of your points. We all sell at Daz, and we sell damned well there :) We have old products here, and have not placed any new ones in a while, though if things could ever improve here as far as sales of new products, no doubt that would change. Since you mention referencing the 30 day list, it must mean your brother is one of the people who sells here. Is he feeling threatened by our Quality movement? Perhaps in fear that somehow this would cut him out of his own ability to sell? He should not be. We are not attempting to stop anyone from selling. We are working toward making an independent testing service as part of a guild geared toward high quality and education of how to achieve high quality. As to your oblique reference to intellectual theft, I havent a clue what you are referring to really, unless you have gone on rumours that are turned up on end and backwards. You see, I was not accused of intellectual theft of anyones product ever, but someone else was accused by members quite openly of intellectual theft of my product. I did not help to "prosecute" that person in public, in fact, when things were too far out of hand, I begged them for mercy for her, as a favour to me, if nothing else. So try to get your facts straight before you speak. Since you visit so infrequently I will forgive you this time ;) Again, get your facts straight. There are no discussions with Jack D Kammerer. Whether one likes or dislikes Jack is not my concern. When he comes into this thread and expresses good will towards people and the idea in general, but also expresses sorrow that he feels that he might not be let in, the only decent thing to do is reassure him fast that indeed, we would let him in. This is neutral ground, our guild. We would let all in who want to be there. He has not ever responded, but at least he knows now he is welcome :) Sometimes, that is all that matters. Our goals are not to start our own site selling our own things, and all that, at this time. Our goals are to start a small quality movement. Anyone who cares about quality is welcome to come learn from us, join us, be a part of it. Why is this so threatening? I haven't a clue. And lastly, we are not going anywhere...except standing right here, standing our ground, and asking artists to be cognizant of the quality they produce, work to produce better stuff, get involved with their work as a passion, not as a way to make 5 dollars extra. Bring to their work the same quality they would want in what they buy. Learn to do better work :) You have a nice day now :)

you dont have to be a vendor to see the bestsellers for the last 30 days.

hehehe.... Amish... wooooo!!! I gotta know Bast ol' buddy why whenever anyone questions your motives you always attack them as being afraid of your "standards"? I can see it's a well rehearsed scheme because your partner used the same tactics on me earlier. See, I am so totally unmoved by your "guild" and you that what you think about my products means nothing to me. "Our goals are not to start our own site selling our own things, and all that, at this time" AT THIS TIME... well that says it all.. Start a site, judge competitors works as unworthy, put them into free stuff instead, break their spirits, and AT THE RIGHT TIME, start your own store. You and your mindset are easier to read then a "Dick and Jane" book.

Well... now I don't want to get anyone upset at me... anyone who knows me knows that I'm a pretty nice guy and pretty easy to get along with... I guess I see things from a little different perspective than a lot of people who've posted here... a lot of you (not all, but some) are vendors as well... I don't sell anything here, or anywhere for that matter... I thought about it once, but then I realized that what I wanted to sell wasn't very good... of course at the time I thought it was great, and I thought, "Wow, I might be able to make a couple of bucks." I even put up a picture and asked if anyone would want to buy it... of course no one said anything about it, and I thought everyone just had BAD TASTE!!! Just kidding... but honestly, I went back and looked at it wondering why there was absolutely no response, and I realized that it just wasn't very good, and I kind of don't blame anyone for not wanting it... I would've felt ripped off myself if I had bought it... but now I'm way off topic... so my point... I guess I see this as a good thing from a consumer stand point... it's a reassurance that what I'm getting is worth my money... If I had gone ahead and tried to sell my stuff before people probably would've bought it, and they may or may not have liked it, but if something like this were around, I could've put it "through it's paces" before it even got that far, and I could improve both the quality of what I wanted to sell, and my own modeling skills in the process... frankly, I'd love people like Mehndi, and Dmentia, and Thorne to tell me what I could do to improve my skills... and while I may not like everything about the way they do things, they are good at what they do, I don't think anyone would argue with that... Additionally as a consumer, I would feel better knowing that something I was thinking about buying had been tested and found to meet certains standards, I would feel better about buying it, and again it wouldn't stop me from buying something that hadn't been tested, if I wanted it, and I thought that it was a good product, I'd still buy it... Wow this message took me like an hour to finish writing... silly people I work with kept interupting me... sheesh ;)