Attached Link: bite the hand

"Surprised I’m still here? Surprised I’m defending DAZ 3D?
They have done so much for me and many others here, where would one assume that we would go?
Someplace that charges more money for less quality?"

And my responce is at the top.

I'm sorry but the biggest thing in C8.5 was genesis compatability, but it was done so poorly, and is so buggy it adds no value for me; and many others, to carrara.

If DAZ wants me to pay $285 for a freaking .5 update it had better have the triax tools to work with the new content, that Studio has, and have them working as well.

Compatability with a dead figure, and an autofit that most of the time doesn't or requires a lot of work to fix; that DAZ seems hell bent on preventing you from doing, has no value.

***Quote -***I still read the DAZ forum regular even though it is 90% DAZ propaganda by Dazzers, not carraraests.

• Interesting, so even though I have used Carrara since version 2, because I personally feel that C8.5 was a good deal, and I like using Genesis (both versions), you would then consider me a Dazzer? Hmmm, interesting point of view, but not one I agree with. But then, I also don't consider myself to be "Carraraest"  either if I have to be a Carrara/DAZ basher to be one.

Actually, I'm just a guy that enjoys 3D, and Carrara is just one of the tools in my tool set, but Carrara is my favorite 3D tool. I do however understand that it can't do everything I would like it to do, and probably never will, so I have to use other tools in creative ways to do what I want. I would love for Carrara to have all of the features of C4D Studio, Vue infinite, and DAZ/Poser content compatibility, at the price DAZ currently asks for it! But, having been it the Technology/IT industry for almost 30 years now, I know that simply is not possible. I can’t afford $5,000+ for C4d Studio with InterposerPro, Vue Infinite, and the annual maintainance of it all (which is more than buying a full new license of Carrara Pro every year), so I'm quite happy that there is a great all round 3D app that uses DAZ/Poser content and is affordable for me.

At least the Dazzers over in the DAZ Carrara forum are actively trying to show/use the tools found in Carrara. They talk about the good and the bad of Carrara. For example in the modeling thread, people are actually learning how to do things in Carrara, instead of just gripping that it's not Modo, Zbrush, C4D, Maya, etc.

I realize that most of the people posting here seem to think all the b****ing and moaning will get DAZ to change their ways, that it won't hurt the sales of Carrara, and if it does, that's good, because it will force DAZ to sell Carrara. Unfortunately, that is pretty flawed logic.

First, if I had never used Carrara, and read all the posts in this forum, I'd never give it a second look. If I read the posts in the DAZ Carrara forum, then I definitely would investigate further. Not everything is positive, but there is a lot of good information to be found, and some great examples of what Carrara, and the tools found in Carrara, can do.

Second, the idea of DAZ selling Carrara because it’s a losing endeavor? Highly, highly doubtful. DAZ has put a lot of their proprietary tech into Carrara, IMHO the only way they would sell Carrara is to sell the whole company. If that were to happen, look for prices to go way UP.

Instead of bashing the "Dazzers", you should be thanking them for showing that it is possible to do some great things with Carrara, and generating renewed interest in it. This might actually boost sales to where we actually will see a C9.

The negativity is so strong in this forum, that I actually started doing some serious research to see if there was an acceptable replacement for Carrara. Guess what? I couldn't find one. The only other app that does good landscape work with integrated plant generation is Vue, but it doesn't have a lot of the features that Carrara has, and Genesis use is pretty iffy (yea, I know y'all hate Genesis - but this was for me, and I like Genesis). Shade has Poser compatibility, but no landscapes, and no Genesis. I could go on, but to get everything we have in Carrara, I would need to get C4D Studio, Interposer Pro, Vue Infinite, and forget Genesis. At $5,000+ just to get started, I'll stick with Carrara.

Oh, I forgot to mention, I’m really glad we have people like Dart in our little community. He really does a lot to inspire me – that’s for sure!

***Quote -***I'm sorry but the biggest thing in C8.5 was genesis compatability, but it was done so poorly, and is so buggy it adds no value for me; and many others, to carrara.

If DAZ wants me to pay $285 for a freaking .5 update it had better have the triax tools to work with the new content, that Studio has, and have them working as well.

Compatability with a dead figure, and an autofit that most of the time doesn't or requires a lot of work to fix; that DAZ seems hell bent on preventing you from doing, has no value.

As I note above, I like using Genesis, it very impressive technology, and IMHO it's great to have it available in Carrara. I was prepared to pay between $100-$200 for the upgrade (at discounted introductory/PC pricing), so to get it for under $80 (with my monthly PC coupon), I'm really happy with the C8.5 upgrade.

Could Genesis integration in C8.5 be better? Definitely! But, let’s keep in mind that DAZ brought that technology into an application who’s roots are quite old. I'm sure that Carrara's code has to be pretty fugly, considering it's a hybrid of merging of Raydream and Infini-D. IMHO it's pretty amazing that they were able to do it as well as they did.

General Rant Warning!!!

I've seen so many post in this forum lately about how horrible Carrara is, how DAZ has completely borked it, how expensive the upgrade is, and how Carrara should have all the features of Maya, C4D, etc. - while keeping it at the current price or less. 

Seriously??????? 

Programmers don't work for free, and 3D programmers make more than programmers in most other fields. I've seen speculation that over the last two+ years that DAZ should have been able to completely rewrite Carrara. OMG! Really? Does anyone here have any sort of idea what kind of undertaking that is?? A general rule of thumb for me when I'm planning a new project - take the time I think it will take, increase that by 200% and multiply be 10 (or simply multiply by 20), and I might be on time/budget. When staff gave me time estimates, I multiply by 10-20 (depending on the person), and can usually get pretty close. 

Someone here put forth the idea that Embree could be added to Carrara in a day or two? Seriously?? Come on, you do realize that implementing a new render engine into Carrara will require either programming a shader translator for all the possible combinations of shaders in Carrara, Or the creation of a new shader system that isn’t compatible with the current render/shaders? The render engine and the shader system are co-dependent on each other, changes in one will affect the other. Integrating Embree would no doubt be no trivial undertaking. How much do C4D users pay for software maintenance/upgrades? One look at those prices and you can see that they have the financial resources to pull of such a big project. At what, $80 to maybe $150 per upgrade for C8.5, DAZ isn’t getting a fraction of the cash flow from Carrara the Maxon is getting from C4D. Botton line ….. if you’re willing to pay PRO prices, then your get a true “Pro” software, and regardless of the pricing of the software, you will get features that the company can afford that fit into their business model.

Remember TrueSpace (one of the main competitors to Carrara)? They tried to re-write their base code to improve and modernize it, after several years they still didn't have a completed product, sold out to M$, and it's dead now. What about NewTek and their attempt to do the same thing?? Didn't turn out so good for them either (but much better than TrueSpace).

If you want Pro tools - you have to either pay the Pro price, or maybe go to Blender. In most cases, you will lose good Poser/DAZ content compatibility, and in all cases you will lose the level of Poser/DAZ integration we currently enjoy with Carrara. Why? Because most of the small studios (and all of the medium to large studios) rely on in-house created 3D assets. Figures rigged for DAZ/Poser simply do not have the features that larger animation studios need. Poser/DAZ figures are great for the 3D prosumer market; because of the time/cost/talent it would take to develop our own simply is not something most of us are able to pull off.

Do I think DAZ is perfect? Not hardly, they have a history of shooting themselves in the foot more than any other company I know. But, the general negativity in this forum is not helping to move Carrara forward.

If you want features in Carrara that aren't there now, or certain bugs put on priority to be fixed, you need to present your argument in a professional manner building a case that will make business sense for DAZ within the context of their business model. Saying that this app or that app has this feature and I want it isn't going to even be considered. Or saying that features x,y,z will make Carrara a pro app and will be an immediate hit with the studios and sell umteengillion licenses isn't going to work either. The Pro market is a very well defined market, that is already the realm of the big companies (i.e. Autodesk), and studios aren't going to dump their in house asset inventory investment (or spend thousands of $$$ to convert them for use) for a software that is untested in their industry. To get the attention of product development at DAZ, you need to present a business case where the development of feature X will obviously improve both the sales of content (where DAZ makes their living) and sales of Carrara to the DS/Poser users in their current market niche. If you do this, then they will listen. 

Take it from someone who had to deal with users and staff complaints on a daily basis for years, incessant complainers who don't provide a good business case for why they need feature x, y, or z, or why we need to adopt a new software app (other than Joe uses it and it's really cool), gets ignored REALLY fast. 

Honestly, if y'all hate Carrara and DAZ so much, just make your life better and go use something else. Blender is free, and pretty darn impressive, oh, did I say it’s FREE!!! 

If you like Carrara, then maybe it would be good to start having a real dialoge about it's strengths and weaknesses. Show examples of both, and workarounds for the things that need them. More users will mean more $$ for the bottom line at DAZ, which in turn will mean more support from DAZ. After all, they are a for profit business.  

Rant Off (I feel better now)

OK, running back into the shadows and lurk mode before I get totally torched by the flames.

And a BIG cheer for Dustrider. Absolutely nothing is more annoying or easier to ingor than constant complains from people who give absolutely no thought to what it takes to create, support and integrate...anything in any 3D app.

When I had my own business selling micros, it was always amazing how many people complained. They wanted the best and fastest for free, and premium service and support for free just because they bought something from me. And the biggest complainers were the ones who didn't know a damn thing about the App they wanted to use and refused to pay for training (I don't work for free). In a number of ways MAC did it right, they charged a premium, had very tight controls and nothing was free.

Few points I would like to make.

I challenge anyone to show me a recent thread that asks for Carrara to have ALL the features in Maya or C4D.

Actually I started this thread:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2873410

to discuss about simple features, or featurettes, that would not take too much development time to enhance Carrara.

I don't expect Carrara to compete with a $5,000 package. But I expect it to at least compete with packages in its own price range like:

1. Shade, (www.mirye.net) which has a world-class renderer as good as VRay and supports Daz/Poser contents and sells for $499.- in its pro version.

2. Cheetah 3D (http://www.cheetah3D.com) which sells for only $99.- and has done right all the things that Carrara has done wrong,

1. Electric Image (http://www.eias3d.com) which sells for $900.- and is used by some prominent production studios

 This is what I stated in another thread regarding some features I'd like to see in Carrara:

What I would like to see in C9 is more accurate processing of light, flawless blending between NLA clips, native support for sketchup models, a renderer using Embree, a professional camera, a better, faster and easier to use particle generator comparable to Particle Illusions, a better spline modeler, an overhauled mataball modeler, a polygon modeler comparable to Hexagon, improved landscape tools, an HDRI lighting that resembles Lightwave's, a scripting language like XPresso in Cinema 4D, a storyboard room that actually works, a flawless live physics engine, better rigging and weightmapping tools, live preview renderer that even Poser has, tons and tons of improvements to the UI, and I could go on for another 10 pages.

Other than a scripting language similar to XPresso in C4D, all the other features I am asking are just rejuvenation features, nothing otherworldly.

If Daz3D's board of Directors decides to sell the company, none of its software products (Studio, Carrara, Hexagon, Bryce and mimic) will weigh much as assets on their balance sheet. Maybe $500K at most for all 5 of them combined.

I do not accept the 'If you don't like Carrara use something else' line of reasoning. Learning and using efficiently a 3D app is a long haul process and cannot be done overnight. I started with Carrara when it was called RDS 3.0, came back to it during Carrara 6.0, and since then it has been disappointment after disappointment.

A couple of examples of unacceptable developments by Daz that look more like a waste of time:

1. Smart Content: Does it even work? When I buy content I don't even install the Daz part, only the Poser part. So much for the Smart Content. AFAIAC the Poser library manager does a far better job than Daz's smart content, and I do not expect Poser dev team to spend any more time on it because it has all the features I would ever need.

2. Studio 3's multiple styles of interface (Carrara, Heaxagon, etc). What's the point for this, other than a useless exercise in style? Studio still doesn not have a decent timeline editor (you must buy a plugin for that), and they spend their time offering me multiple interface styles? How's that for disappointing waste of development time?

What I see in Daz3D is a company that cannot get the fundamentals right, and is engaging in a forward escape as a mean to correct the deficiencies of its products.

Lastly, you do not succeed in this market, or any market for that matter, by offering superior technology. You succeed by offering what customers need, by caring and giving them tools to solve their problems, by responding to their demands. The 'Hey, look what I got' approach seldom works.

"Dead Figure"

That is so funny that it's not funny.

DAZ 3D has developed an amazing figure. A real treat. They improve upon it and decide to release Genesis 2 in both Male and Female versions. This will make it easier for those of us whom enjoy collecting every single morph shaper we can find. Now we won't have the female dials mixed with the female. It will truly help clothing designers - not having to make certain that their products work with all morph shapes.

But does this mean that the original Genesis died?

Why don't we have a nice browse through this marketplace and also at DAZ 3D. Does it look dead to you? I hope not!

The original Genesis has some heavy-hitter DAZ people shapes, monsters galore, and a pletora of other great addons, shapes, and textures. This is going to continue.

DAZ 3D has some really impressive (to me) technology in the works. Although I am not at liberty to disclose what I know, I can say that I am very excited about the brilliant future that the company has going for it. I just don't understand the rationality of how improving upon their developments can translate to them being the bad guy. They sure seem to be doing the right thing to those of us whom create for them - and now, with the new developments on DAZ Studio Pro (still free? How nasty of them!) giving us some of the finest tools for creating this sort of content around, and published documents on how to get started with it.

Carrara 8.5, like I've mentioned before, is truly the best Carrara to date.

Dustrider did a great job of illustrating how Carrara now stands all by itself in what it can do for us. This individuality that Carrara holds just got a lot stronger with the new upgrade - and I really look forward to seeing what they're doing to it now!

On a side note, which follows through to earlier versions, since they've added the ability to model in the assembly room, I have really been getting fantastic results in the vertex modeler - but not within the modeling room... in the general workspace of the assembly room! This makes it possible to create models while other (as many as your memory will allow) models are present in the scene - so we can model around and into other objects. While in edit mode, you cannot select anything outside of the mesh being worked on, so it's very efficient and easy. And I've never once wished for a tool that Carrara doesn't have, while creating my mesh. It is a great modeler.

Carrara's render engine - I'm really glad that Dustrider is right about the difficulties involved in porting over to new engines. I love the render engines included with Carrara. One of my favorite aspects about Carrara is how I don't have to wait forever to get my images. Sure, you can slow it down. That part is easy. But when you compare similar scenes in Carrara with other software, it just rocks!

Carrara's Shader possibilities are what help to turn a crappy render into a perfect one. Carrara actually helps you to get beautiful renders by being so easy to work in. You aim that lights in a real manner. A manner one would expect to work with lights in the real world, yet as with all 3d rendering, we also get to break the rules of the real world. Carrara's shader functions, like everything else in Carrara, is set up with terminology that makes so much sense towards the outcome you're looking to achieve, that we can look at our renders, determine what needs adjustment, and go in and fix it. Sure - this goes for any 3d software. But Carrara's friendliness is evident throughout everything within it. So you can drag your feet and drudge along... or you can spread your wings and fly. Carrara is not biased as to how you wish to use it.

Carrara is doing the opposite of dying - no matter your negativity. This totally pleases me. More and more people are buying Carrara. The gears of development on Carrara are turning. While I might add to the wish lists for new features to see in future versions, I really love Carrara for what it already has - but I know already that I'll just continue to upgrade. I know DAZ 3D, and they make me feel good! I am a Dazzer!

Quote - DAZ 3D has some really impressive (to me) technology in the works

Please explain, to the extent you are allowed to, in what ways these new impressive technologies will help me solve my problems.

Please note, I do not consider something like 'You will be able to design hi-def lizards very easily' as an acceptable answer.

Quote - Someone here put forth the idea that Embree could be added to Carrara in a day or two?

@DustRider: Since I am the one who first mentioned Embree in this forum, could you please show me where I have stated, or someone stated, that Embree could be implemented in Carrara in a day or two?

Sorry For making 3 consecutive posts. No spamming intended. The edit time limit for my previous post has expired.

A clarification regarding Embree:

Embree is not a full-blown renderer like Lux or Octane which need their own shading or lighting systems. Embree is a set of fast raytracing routines to be incorporated into a renderer, to replace the renderer's slower raytracing code, the rest of the renderer remaining unchanged.

It's like a heart transplant. You take the ailing heart out and replace it with a new healthy heart, the rest of the body remains unchanged.

Implementing Embree inside a renderer is not a trivial task, but it is not a multi-year project with huge resource requirements.

Intel has done it very intelligently, i.e. give 3D app developers a set of super-fast raytracing routines whose implementation should have minimal impact on the rest of the renderer.

At least this is my understabding of how Embree works.

Sorry again for these multiple posts. I an only trying to give as much info about Embree as I can. This is verbatim from Intel's web site:

Quote - Embree is a collection of high-performance ray tracing kernels, developed at Intel Labs. The kernels are optimized for photo-realistic rendering on the latest Intel® processors with support for the SSE and AVX instruction sets. In addition to the ray tracing kernels, Embree provides an example photo-realistic rendering engine. Embree is designed for Monte Carlo ray tracing algorithms, where the vast majority of rays are incoherent. The specific single-ray traversal kernels in Embree provide the best performance in this scenario and they are very easy to integrate into existing applications.

http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/embree-photo-realistic-ray-tracing-kernels

"Interesting, so even though I have used Carrara since version 2, because I personally feel that C8.5 was a good deal, and I like using Genesis (both versions), you would then consider me a Dazzer? Hmmm, interesting point of view, but not one I agree with. But then, I also don't consider myself to be "Carraraest"  either if I have to be a Carrara/DAZ basher to be one". DustRider  

Dazzers, as in DAZ cheerleaders that seem to spend most of their time trying to convince people DAZ can do no wrong. Some one comes on to the forum with a valid issue and practically the next post is to tell them how wrong they are. That is if the post isn't pulled out right.

"Actually, I'm just a guy that enjoys 3D, and Carrara is just one of the tools in my tool set, but Carrara is my favorite 3D tool. I do however understand that it can't do everything I would like it to do, and probably never will, so I have to use other tools in creative ways to do what I want. I would love for Carrara to have all of the features of C4D Studio, Vue infinite, and DAZ/Poser content compatibility, at the price DAZ currently asks for it! But, having been it the Technology/IT industry for almost 30 years now, I know that simply is not possible. I can’t afford $5,000+ for C4d Studio with InterposerPro, Vue Infinite, and the annual maintenance of it all (which is more than buying a full new license of Carrara Pro every year), so I'm quite happy that there is a great all round 3D app that uses DAZ/Poser content and is affordable for me". DustRider  

Agree. But how many times has DAZ broken a feature in carrara then left it that way? When you ask DAZ when they are going to fix dynamic hair so it doesn't react to objects in the scene DAZ will tell you to remove the objects, how is that a fix to dynamic hair? I'm not upset that carrara doesn't have all the features the big apps have, I'm upset by DAZ halfassed development of carrara; as in braking feature then leaving them broke.

"At least the Dazzers over in the DAZ Carrara forum are actively trying to show/use the tools found in Carrara". DustRider

When they actually work.

"First, if I had never used Carrara, and read all the posts in this forum, I'd never give it a second look. If I read the posts in the DAZ Carrara forum, then I definitely would investigate further."  DustRider

You mean the fascisly moderated DAZ forums which truly only presents one side, DAZ's. So when the new user starts using carrara then starts getting slapped in the face with issues they never read about on the DAZ forum they can think "what am I doing wrong".

"IMHO the only way they would sell Carrara is to sell the whole company". DustRider

Hopefully. My big issues with DAZ started when DAZ really wasn't DAZ any more. The new people running DAZ are what is ruining DAZ.

"Instead of bashing the "Dazzers", you should be thanking them for showing that it is possible to do some great things with Carrara, and generating renewed interest in it. This might actually boost sales to where we actually will see a C9." DustRider

What would boost the sales for carrara would be DAZ sticking to what they had been telling us for 2 years, C8.5 would be a nominal fee. $285 in by absolutely no definition, nominal. So basically DAZ lied to us for 2 years and we are some how now supposed to believe anything they say? More over DAZ also promised us we wouldn't have to have CMS to use DAZ content in carrara, then at release they made it mandatory if you wanted to use autofit, so yet again we were lied to.

"The only other app that does good landscape work with integrated plant generation is Vue," DustRider

Who's atmospherics lay carrara's to waist because DAZ hasn't done anything to improve it since they bought carrara. It is always at the top of my requested features list.

"As I note above, I like using Genesis, it very impressive technology, and IMHO it's great to have it available in Carrara. I was prepared to pay between $100-$200 for the upgrade (at discounted introductory/PC pricing), so to get it for under $80 (with my monthly PC coupon), I'm really happy with the C8.5 upgrade". DustRider

Which is free in studio plus the tools to work with genesis that carrara doesn't have. And one more time FREE IN STUDIO. So if I want to really do something to Genesis I have to do it in Studio because carrara is incapable. As I said if C8.5 had had the triax tools that are in Studio, and genesis/autofit had worked as well, yes it would have been worth the asking price. As is? No.

"I've seen so many post in this forum lately about how horrible Carrara is, how DAZ has completely borked it, how expensive the upgrade is, and how Carrara should have all the features of Maya, C4D, etc. - while keeping it at the current price or less". DustRider

Those point shouldn't be lumped together.
No, carrara isn't horrible. I love it and use it practically daily and some time all day.
Yes DAZ has borked it as much as it has advanced it. Every time DAZ adds something new they brake something old then never fix it.
Yes considering DAZ had told us for two years the upgrade would be a nominal fee then release it at $285, it is leaps more expensive then anticipated.
I don't want carrara to have all the big boy features. I want the feature that are there fixed and working as they should. The only really new feature I request regular; and have been requesting since C5 is dynamic clothes.

"Do I think DAZ is perfect? Not hardly, they have a history of shooting themselves in the foot more than any other company I know. But, the general negativity in this forum is not helping to move Carrara forward". DustRider

Agree. But if you look 99% of my negativity is directed at DAZ, and DAZ's handling of carrara, not carrara.

"If you want features in Carrara that aren't there now, or certain bugs put on priority to be fixed, you need to present your argument in a professional manner building a case that will make business sense for DAZ within the context of their business model". DustRider

If that worked we wouldn't be here now ;) I stopped filing bug reports because it was a waste of my time. I've been requesting that the shadier list stop the rollback since C5, shadier list still roles back to the top every time, and I can't believe it would be that difficult to stop it.

"If you like Carrara, then maybe it would be good to start having a real dialogue about it's strengths and weaknesses." DustRider

Done that repeatedly. Seems those sort of threads are like chewing gum, tasts good but doesn't fill your belly.

"Show examples of both, and workarounds for the things that need them". DustRider

That is the last thing you want to do on the DAZ forum. Once you post a work around for an issue DAZ will never fix it. Why fix it, there is a work around.

"OK, running back into the shadows and lurk mode before I get totally torched by the flames". DustRider

Please don't, I like arguing with people that don't get all personal and bent out of shape.

"Absolutely nothing is more annoying or easier to ingnor than constant complains from people who give absolutely no thought to what it takes to create, support and integrate...anything In any 3D app". ldgilman

I know you aren't talking to me.

"And the biggest complainers were the ones who didn't know a damn thing about the App they wanted to use and refused to pay for training (I don't work for free)". ldgilman

Still not talking to me and I am the biggest complainer.:D

""Dead Figure" That is so funny that it's not funny". Dartagnon  

No it isn't at all funny. DAZ released genesis over 2 years ago and never did another thing with the figure. It is out of development. With on 3 months we had all the morphs for the mil4/3 figures and genesis was done. By dead I mean the figure it's self is no longer in and hasn't had any development since.

"DAZ 3D has developed an amazing figure. A real treat. They improve upon it and decide to release Genesis 2 in both Male and Female versions". Dartagnon

Oh come on, you know as well as I do DAZ isn't responsible for G2F or G2M. Not at all sure why you want to give them the credit. Doesn't that slight the PA that actually did the work?

"The original Genesis has some heavy-hitter DAZ people shapes, monsters galore, and a pletora of other great addons, shapes, and textures. This is going to continue". Dartagnon

Lets see some links to any of that that has come out in the last 2 years. PA items don't count, we are just talking DAZ developments. Just because PAs still support genesis doesn't mean DAZ is still developing it. PAs still make clothes for mil4 figure, and I have seen new items for mil3 figures. Are you going to say DAZ is still developing them?  

"They sure seem to be doing the right thing to those of us whom create for them" Dartagnon.

Well dah, how are they going to make a profit if not off the backs of the PAs?

"More and more people are buying Carrara". Dartagnon.

Ahh, no. Lets step in to the way back machine and look at the forum after the release of C8. It was full of new users asking questions and old users asking about new features. Jump forward to the release of C8.5, it took what days for people to realize autofit doesn't work with out CMS running. If it had been the same as the C8 release people would have known this in a matter of minutes. I'd be whiling to bet C8.5 was the biggest flop since carrara was first released. And the problem wasn't carrara.

"I really love Carrara for what it already has - but I know already that I'll just continue to upgrade. I know DAZ 3D, and they make me feel good! I am a Dazzer!" Dartagnon
Oh ya, you are. Whether that is a good thing or not is debatable.

If something is free is has no $ value. Genesis compatibility and autofit are free in Studio, yet we are expected to pay for it in carrara. Why? We have already established it has no $ value. That said .5 update at $285 when a full upgrade was only $200, makes DAZ's asking price for C8.5 highway robbery. $285 for some feature tweaks and light icons? I think not.

Genesis compatibility and autofit are in carrara for no other reason then to sell us content, I am not paying for the privilege of buying content. Simple as that. If C8.5 had come out at the promised for 2 years nominal fee we would all be on the DAZ forum having as much fun as we did after C6, C7, and C8. As in, we wouldn't be here now.

DustRider  you see all this negativity here because DAZ would delete it from the DAZ forum. Fact or truth has nothing to do with it. As in I got banned for pointing out facts. It's like fascism, what do you call a truthful report for a fascist newspaper? Inmate 5487563876573467.

Wow, don't know that I can effectively respond to all this :blink: 

I'll start with some of the easy ones, and slowly work through it (still having fun with Octane).

ManleyStanley said: "If something is free is has no $ value. Genesis compatibility and autofit are free in Studio, yet we are expected to pay for it in carrara. Why? We have already established it has no $ value. That said .5 update at $285 when a full upgrade was only $200, makes DAZ's asking price for C8.5 highway robbery. $285 for some feature tweaks and light icons? I think not. "

IMHO, extrapolating that integrating Genesis into Carrara provides no value for Carrara users and should be integrated for free simply because you can use Genesis for free in DS is a bit od a stretch. The practice of providing a program with a given level of functionality for free, than charging for a program with similar base functionality and additional more advanced features is quite common. For example, you can get Avast anti virus software for free, but if you want the additional internet security features you will need to pay for them. True - this isn't exactly the same thing, but this is a common practice.

What would have been the response of Carrara & Content users if DAZ hadn't integrated Genesis into Carrara. It would have been ugly - very ugly. I can attest to my own experience - DAZ didn't hold a gun to my head and make me purchase the upgrade. I did so of my own free will because it had features that I wanted. If it didn't, I wouldn't have upgraded. If I decided not to upgrade, I would understand that it was MY decision, and would not have gripped about it for the next few months/years. I would have evaluated my options, made a decision, and moved forward either with moving to a different software, or being content with hat I had.

If having Genesis support in Carrara is of no value to you, I say then why upgrade, unless you want to support the continued development of Carrara? DAZ is a business, you get the opportunity to make the decision, and vote with your $$$.

The Carrara 8.5 upgrade at $285 ???? Seriously??? Common Stan, you know that's only the price for people who have never shopped at DAZ and don't know how things work there.  $85.50 (PC Price) + ~$25.00 (quarterly PC membership if you aren’t a current PC member) = $110.50 for owners of C8 (you do have to go all the way into your cart to see the $85.50 price though). I realize that by using the $285.00 price help's to support your view of injustice and overpricing, but for those who know better, it only makes you look bad.

ManleyStanley said:  "DustRider  you see all this negativity here because DAZ would delete it from the DAZ forum. Fact or truth has nothing to do with it. As in I got banned for pointing out facts. It's like fascism, what do you call a truthful report for a fascist newspaper? Inmate 5487563876573467."***

Seriously?? Fascism??? The last time I checked, DAZ3D is a business, not a government, dictatorship, or any form of sociopolitical regime that controls a given/defined area of land and the people who are within the borders of the afore mentioned area of land. Why is it so difficult to understand that DAZ pays the bills for their forums, and they have the right to control their forums in a many they see fit. Freedom of speech is not a right on private forums on the internet. You either abide by the rules, or you aren’t welcome there.

I say the following only in hopes that maybe it will help in some way. I mean no malice, and only hope that you will see some value in what follows. I knew before you got banned form DAZ that is was going to happen, and honestly, I'm surprised they put up with your behavior as long as they did. It's sad, because you have some great talents and a lot of knowledge that you could (and often do/did) share with the community. But instead you decide to go on your own personal crusade, to almost irrational levels. If you take a good, objective, and honest look at it, you will realize that the only person you have to blame for getting banned from DAZ is yourself. You refused to follow the rules, and as a result you got "invited" to leave.

ManleyStanley said:  "If that worked we wouldn't be here now ;) I stopped filing bug reports because it was a waste of my time. I've been requesting that the shadier list stop the rollback since C5, shadier list still roles back to the top every time, and I can't believe it would be that difficult to stop it. "

I tend to agree here ... to a point. I don't have any insights on this beyond my own programming and IT experience. But, it is very possible that this seemingly simple modification is not as simple as it would seem to the user. I don't have any idea how the underlying code for Carrara is structured, other than the obvious things that any user could surmise (i.e. if I perform this modification in module x - then the values are passed to module y), and I seriously doubt anyone on this forum does either. It is very possible that changing that seemingly simple and really disliked behavior is truly a large undertaking that would require numerous modifications to the underlying code for both the UI and how the UI passes information back to the materials program.

Here is where the programmers and product development managers have to make a difficult judgment call that makes perfect sense to them, but is not popular with the user base. The dialogue would go something like this:

Question 1 - Does this problem cause the program to crash, create unexpected results, or dose the core program still function as intended (i.e. you enter/change a value - does it work)?

    Answer - Yes it does still work properly, but it is an inconvenience and very annoying for the user.

Question 2 - How long will it take to fix this behavior?

   Answer -  ?????? (no one on this forum has a clue - lets just guess at 3 days)

Question 3 - Does this problem make it impossible for the user to work with the program?

  Answer - No it doesn't, but when the users are editing complex materials like we have on V4, it is extremely annoying and inconvenient.

Question 4 - Is this a big enough issue that it would be a good bullet point to attract current users to upgrade, and entice new users to purchase?

  Answer - Many current users would love it, but it seems like they are more interested in features x,y,and z. Prospective users wouldn't have a clue what we were talking about.

Decision - Let's put this feature on the top of the list of annoying issues that make the user go crazy. We will work on features in this list after we have completed the new features for version XXX, and addressed all the new/old bugs that make any features or the program unusable. Hopefully we will have time to fix all of the features on the annoying list prior to the release of the new version.

Of course, this list may never get addressed because 99% of the time, the new features take longer and cost more than expected, so the annoying but usable problems list seldom receives any real attention.

Yes, to us, the users, this seems like a very callous and .... well .... stupid way to do business, because it isn't improving the software that way it should be improved (at least to us). But on the other side, they only have a given amount of $$$$ to work with, and have to try to maximize the return on their investment. Of course, not addressing the usability issues can be a big negative over time. It's a very difficult balancing act when your dealing with limited resources, because there are always users who are unhappy with your decisions.

@dr_bernie - Sorry if I was wrong about the time that was speculated on the inclusion of Embree into Carrara. Bottom line though on any new features, or featurettes, we, as users really have no clue as to how difficult or easy it is add things to Carrara. I do know from my own real life experience that working with someone else’s code, especially code that has been through several different owners, and is a compilation of two programs is no simple task.

My comments in this area reflect my own increased sensitivity to people without a clue who think programmers and IT staff can easily do things that actually are quite difficult. So if I was a bit over the top, I apologize.

Now back to your regularly scheduled DAZ3D and "Dazzer" bashing party.....

dr_bernie,

from that long list of wants, and it seems that you are rather passionate about the fact that this list is not yet a part of Carrara, it just seems to me that you might not have looked into what Carrara is and does before purchasing it? Don't get me wrong here, but it just seems to me that you already know the software that does what you want. Why should Carrara do it too?

Please understand that I'm not trying to make light of your wishes... it's just that, when I looked into Carrara, I was looking all over the web, as far as I knew to... which at the time was rather limited, I'll admit... Carrara (6 Pro) had all of the things that I wanted. I wasn't able to buy it until nearly the release of 8, which I got free for buying 7 Pro during their promo.

Actually (finally) using Carrara for the first time and ever since, it does exactly what I want. Like all forms of design and thought into this sort of thing, we all try things that need tweaking or re-thinking, perhaps even an entirely new direction on how to tackle the issue at hand. You'll get that with any software. But if I was looking for stuff that specific, I would look for that. Actually, from your posts above, it looks like you already know where to get what you're looking for. I know many 3d artists whom build a toolbox of several applications to meet their needs.

Of course... you already know all of this...

I think it's funny that you seem to blame DAZ 3D for not entirely redesigning the software from ground up. They bought "Carrara", not all of those things you mentioned. The vast majority of Carrara users bought it for what it is capable of - not just in the hopes that some day it might include stuff that it doesn't.

As far as Carrara development that might help you out - at least according to the 'wants' that you mention above... hmmmm...

from the quote of me that you've included before asking that, I was not aware that you were going to add an entirely unreasonable list of demands that, personally, I hope do not get implemented. For those wanting to use different render engines, I would truly prefer that they contact the developer of the engine. They might need to contact DAZ 3D on a professional level to build the plugin. Carrara's render engines, the photorealistic engine specifically, is one of my favorite aspects of Carrara. I love it. I know an enormous amount of people whom also prefer to use it over many others.

As Dustrider pointed out, these sorts of demands are certainly not reasonable wants for any upgrade, simply because you're looking for an entirely different piece of software. Asking Cheverolet to use Ford starters on their vehicles within their system for requesting features is just a waste of time to the person that has to weed that sort of request out of the real list of true feature requests. An example of Professionals requesting their needs might actually include files of the attempt to complete something specific, but there is a road block in the software keeping them from finishing it to their satisfaction. "I want you to put LightWave's xxx feature into Carrara" is similar to my ridiculous Chevy/Ford example above.

As for my being a DAZ 3D Cheer Leader, I'll admit it any time - proudly.

Anyone following your conspiracy theories about the company should really understand the major flaw in your design, which uses the model where DAZ 3D actually has control over what everybody buys, and when they do it. That's simply not at all how it works. DAZ 3D works very hard to maintain the status that they hold in the market. That work doesn't include having somebody pay you a visit and force you to make purchases. It does include paying close attention to what is available for use in further, future development of their goods. Turning DAZ Studio into what it is today doesn't come from accident or luck. It takes immense knowledge and research... it takes genius. Any one of use can make a mesh and rig it. DAZ 3D welcomes you to submit what you create for potential goods. They send the call out across the globe and beyond to whom ever might be listening. This is how they get the published artists that they have. Renderosity, too. I buy a lot of stuff here, too. Genesis is one top-of-the-line figure base. How do I know that? From those in the thousands that say so, and from using it myself. I'm no major judge of what is the best - except when it comes to what "I" want to use. And "I" chose to use Genesis 1 and 2, and I also chose to use all of the previous generation figures, Predatron's LoRez figures and amny more.

Nobody is forcing industry standards except for the masses that wish to use it. If it flops, there goes a lot of hard work. How do they get it right? Through talent, knowledge, open ears, and solid development. Genesis comes free. Nobody can force anybody to load it into a scene. Michael, the Millennium Man and Victoria, the Millennium Woman are still in the store with plenty of excellent support products. Renderosity has an excellent selection of goods that works solidly with all generations of DAZ 3D figures. Poser's Content Paradise is loaded with support for DAZ 3D products. This doesn't come from being wrong all of the time. Belittling DAZ 3D is belittling anyone whom supports them. I don't understand how you could possibly attract a following - especially here!

Hogwash, I tell you!

There.

Gone.

"IMHO, extrapolating that integrating Genesis into Carrara provides no value for Carrara users and should be integrated for free simply because you can use Genesis for free in DS is a bit od a stretch. The practice of providing a program with a given level of functionality for free, than charging for a program with similar base functionality and additional more advanced features is quite common. For example, you can get Avast anti virus software for free, but if you want the additional internet security features you will need to pay for them. True - this isn't exactly the same thing, but this is a common practice." DustRider

Oh I'll give you that it's a bit of a stratch. But I don't think it gives carrara the value DAZ put on it; especially in it's preset state. More over I refuse to install CMS so I wouldn't be able to use genesi/autofit; which was unnessary through out the beta.

"What would have been the response of Carrara & Content users if DAZ hadn't integrated Genesis into Carrara. It would have been ugly - very ugly. I can attest to my own experience - DAZ didn't hold a gun to my head and make me purchase the upgrade. I did so of my own free will because it had features that I wanted. If it didn't, I wouldn't have upgraded. If I decided not to upgrade, I would understand that it was MY decision, and would not have gripped about it for the next few months/years. I would have evaluated my options, made a decision, and moved forward either with moving to a different software, or being content with hat I had."

Actually the responce to genesis not being carrara compatable was, well not much ;)
Yes, your desion was to buy, if I had thought the price was reasonable I would have too. But I used the beta for 2 years, it wasn't worth what DAZ is asking for it to me; and that was before they made CMS mandatory. And it is just my nature to stay at an issue till it isn't. Problems don't get solved by pointing them out, then walking away.
And if CMS is still manditory in C9, I guess; regarless of how much I love it, I wont be upgrading carrara at all. DAZ is not going to stick a gun to my head and force me to use CMS to use genesis/autofit, it was unnessary in the beta it shouldn't be nessary now.

"The Carrara 8.5 upgrade at $285 ???? Seriously??? Common Stan, you know that's only the price for people who have never shopped at DAZ and don't know how things work there.  $85.50 (PC Price) + ~$25.00 (quarterly PC membership if you aren’t a current PC member) = $110.50 for owners of C8 (you do have to go all the way into your cart to see the $85.50 price though). I realize that by using the $285.00 price help's to support your view of injustice and overpricing, but for those who know better, it only makes you look bad." DustRider

Sorry, but the discounts are nothing but smoke and mirrors in my opinion. None the less $110 is still way over priced as far as I'm concerned. My price point is $50, that is all C8.5 is worth in my book. Now when C9 comes out and CMS is unnessary, and DAZ doesn't play some "you didn't get C8.5 so C9 is full price" game. I'll upgrade to C9; dependent on new features, if DAZ offers it at the price I value it at. If it is just C8.5 with a bit more guilding......

"Seriously?? Fascism??? The last time I checked, DAZ3D is a business, not a government, dictatorship, or any form of sociopolitical regime that controls a given/defined area of land and the people who are within the borders of the afore mentioned area of land. Why is it so difficult to understand that DAZ pays the bills for their forums, and they have the right to control their forums in a many they see fit. Freedom of speech is not a right on private forums on the internet. You either abide by the rules, or you aren’t welcome there." DustRider

Oh I never said DAZ doesn't have the right to do what they do. But the DAZ forum just shows people a single side, DAZ's. So if you have a gripe you have to do it else where. All that accomplishes is concentrating all the bad DAZ sentament in to one place where DAZ has no control. So of coarse that other site is going to look like a snake pit. This is like the golog for DAZ nay sayers.

Hey, some one has to counter balance a certain persons head in the clouds optimisiam, so I get a bit extreme too ;)

"I say the following only in hopes that maybe it will help in some way. I mean no malice, and only hope that you will see some value in what follows. I knew before you got banned form DAZ that is was going to happen, and honestly, I'm surprised they put up with your behavior as long as they did. It's sad, because you have some great talents and a lot of knowledge that you could (and often do/did) share with the community. But instead you decide to go on your own personal crusade, to almost irrational levels. If you take a good, objective, and honest look at it, you will realize that the only person you have to blame for getting banned from DAZ is yourself. You refused to follow the rules, and as a result you got "invited" to leave". DustRider

Yes, and isn't funny how those rules cover pointing out facts. I got banned for pointing out the fact that DAZ is not developing genesis. The DAZ forum is a commercial site, you can't say any facts that might curtail sales. For DAZ it's much easier to ban some one then actually do something about an issue, especially if it has something to do with anything DAZ is trying to sweep under the carpet.

True incident. When Dawn was released on Hivewire {where pretty much all the old DAZ crew is} the download demend was enough to crash the server several time. Some one had posted about it on the DAZ forum so I jokingly posted the lip bizzkets "sabatoge" video. It was a joke, nothing but a joke. A certain other forum poster had made a comment about the cast in the video, I responded. The mods pulled all of it, it violated absolutly no rules. And I was threatened with banning then. I will reiterate, I violated no rules with the posts.
I'll also point out I had a watch dog on the DAZ forum, I had posts pulled for little to no reason with in minutes of posting. Like some one had some radar and knew the second I posted. Yes, one of the DAZ forum mods had it in for me; in my opinion. So I was going to end up banned regarless.

"I tend to agree here ... to a point. I don't have any insights on this beyond my own programming and IT experience. But, it is very possible that this seemingly simple modification is not as simple as it would seem to the user. I don't have any idea how the underlying code for Carrara is structured, other than the obvious things that any user could surmise (i.e. if I perform this modification in module x - then the values are passed to module y), and I seriously doubt anyone on this forum does either. It is very possible that changing that seemingly simple and really disliked behavior is truly a large undertaking that would require numerous modifications to the underlying code for both the UI and how the UI passes information back to the materials program". DustRider

Oh I'll give you that. But would it kill a DAZ rep to say as much?

" Answer - No it doesn't, but when the users are editing complex materials like we have on V4, it is extremely annoying and inconvenient". DustRider

Oh I wish some of the models I worked with had as few a shaders as V4 ;) lol

"My comments in this area reflect my own increased sensitivity to people without a clue who think programmers and IT staff can easily do things that actually are quite difficult. So if I was a bit over the top, I apologize".

I spent 3 years converting papyrus race tracks from various papyrus car racing games to GP500; motocycle racing games. I know all about "well it should be easy" lol

"Anyone following your conspiracy theories about the company should really understand the major flaw in your design, which uses the model where DAZ 3D actually has control over what everybody buys, and when they do it. That's simply not at all how it works". Dartagnon

But DAZ does. DAZ controls it all with pricing, sales, and advertising. DAZ stopped me from updating to C8.5 with the price. DAZ could just as easily sold it to me by pricing it right. DAZ had all the control there. I'd bet if DAZ had dropped the price $30 in your cart, they would have tripled the units sold. That would have tripled the number of people using genesis in carrara and as such boosted genesis items sales greatly. You; as a carrara PA, count have actually made more money. So DAZ overpricing the C8.5 update actually cost you money. Or didn't you realize that?

"Through talent, knowledge, open ears, and solid development". Dartagnon
I laughed so hard at that I almost wet myself. If DAZ had open ears and did some solid developing.. well... it's another case of we wouldn't be here now. :D

"I don't understand how you could possibly attract a following - especially here"!

Why on earth would I want a following? This isn't a popularity contest.

And you do realize those people with the "talent, knowledge, open ears" that made DAZ what it is, aren't there any more, right?

"Belittling DAZ 3D is belittling anyone whom supports them". Dartagnon

No, I'd never belittle a PA ;) . Because, after all it is the PA's that support DAZ. Think about it. 

dr_bernie wrote: "

I don't expect Carrara to compete with a $5,000 package. But I expect it to at least compete with packages in its own price range like:

1. Shade, (www.mirye.net) which has a world-class renderer as good as VRay and supports Daz/Poser contents and sells for $499.- in its pro version.

2. Cheetah 3D (http://www.cheetah3D.com) which sells for only $99.- and has done right all the things that Carrara has done wrong,

3. Electric Image (http://www.eias3d.com) which sells for $900.- and is used by some prominent production studios”

These may be in the same price range, but they definitely don't have the same feature set or the same target audience.

1. Shade does have a very very good render engine, and some very good modeling and animation tools. However it has no landscape or plant creation tools - but you can export your shade models to Vue and animate/render there. It also doesn't have native Poser/DAZ content support, it has PoserFusion, which means you need to have Poser, and you do your posing, animation, etc. in Poser then host it in Shade for rendering. You can't pose or use Shades internal animation tools for Poser figures unless you want to import and re-rig them in Shade. For now, I'll stick with using Carrara.

2. Cheeta3D looks really nice, and I've heard a lot of good things about it. Unfortunately it's only for Macs - that means I'm out. It also means their cost of development and support is MUCH less than companies who support both Wn/Mac platforms. Once again, if you want to use Poser content in Cheetah 3D you'll have to import static obj files from Poser or DS, re-rig them there for use in Cheetah. Landscapes and plants will also need to be modeled or imported into Cheetah. I don't use Macs, so I'll stick with Carrara.

3. EIAS is and animation and rendering software - period. Bring your own modeler, because it doesn't have one. It has no Poser content support (other than static OBJ import - or maybe collada/fbx??), no landscape creation, no plant editor, and is what, $900? No thanks, I'll stick with Carrara.

Of the three applications listed, Shade is the only one that has any form of Poser support. Carrara had hosting with Transposer. It was nice because we could render Poser cloth in Carrara. but it was also a pain because you had to do everything in Poser. If you needed to adjust a pose, you had to do it in Poser and then update the scene in Carrara. Transposer died because Eovia, then DAZ could no longer get the SDK for Poser 7 or later.

If I was to go to a different application - you can't beat the bang for the buck of Blender. But for now I'm happy with Carrara, and be even happier when the Octane Render plugin comes out.

Carrara 8.5 sold more copies than any other version to date. DAZ 3D pricing is very low. You cannot buy Poser Pro for what you'll end up paying for Carrara. Well... not you, because you don't want it. And you really don't. Because Genesis is really cool. And it just won't work properly at the moment without cms. People who have never tried Carrara before are now joining in and seeing why we're such a happy bunch. Carrara is simple, it's powerful, and no matter what sort of 3d design you fancy, Carrara has tools to help you do it.

We're even getting Octane support now. That's a real screamer.

Your getting booted, I think, wasn't just a simple moderator thing. I think you said the wrong things to the wrong individuals just two too many times, or something. I mean... I never thought you were all that bad. It doesn't have to be all giggles, but I can see where they don't want people coming into the forum for the first time only to see five signs on the front page saying "Do Not Enter... this place is Bad... Go somewhere else"

I know that's not literally what was going on - but darn close. When the new forums came on line, many of us didn't even want to post it was so freaking anti-DAZ 3D. A little here and there is one thing. But these folks deserve much better than that. And when you say that there's something wrong with us standing up for what and who we believe in, well then perhaps it's not us who are in the wrong place. Personally, Renderosity here is all about supporting DAZ 3D and Smith Micro and AutoDesk, Adobe, C4D... these things are all incredible. Read any professional animation text book. None of the people creating or upgrading these applications deserve to be having rocks thrown at them. These people have a job to do. A job that's not even close to being described as easy. They even tried to answer some of your reports just for you! I saw it happen right in the beta forums. You got all thankful for a post and then you turned around the snubbed another insult at him. He finally returns after being accused of not posting in the forums any more and he gets insulted again... for what? Trying his best to give it his all towards what he's told to do? He's good at his job  and he has an excellent team. That was incredibly uncalled for. But that wasn't around the time you got the boot... that was quite some time ago, like when he first left the forum. He probably went to his boss and said: "I don't need this horse shxt!" and his boss said: "You're right - get out of there".  I've always liked you - I still do. We butt heads, but that's fun. But I'm not going to say "Oh really? You got banned? What on earth for?"

It was sort of like going to someone's house and telling them that they made the wrong thing for dinner. The chairs are too freaking soft, and we need more beer. Shut that TV off. All that is is propaganda and ...

Who really puts up with that? Complaining is one thing. But respect should always be placed back when and where it's due. And they deserve a round of applause and some thanks - even if you have no interest in 8.5 upgrade. Why? Because it marks the beginning of the Carrara 9 development cycle - that's why.

Sorry for laying it out like that. Someone in the stands at a basketball game bitching because people are playing basketball is simply out of line, and out of place. It's really funny at first - but then it needs to remain done. I'm only responding to this particular part because you mentioned above that the DAZ forum is all one sided, DAZ 3D's side. That's not even close to being accurate. We're all answering our own questions through our own expertise, experimentation, tests, and civility amongst our fellow Carraraists. The Carrara forums has a lot going for it right now. I can almost see that it can be fun to just open up and, instead of looking for ways that you can get something done, look for reasons why you cannot figure anything out - and blame the creator. Those negative thoughts are what eventually leads to the dark side. Balance is good. Gloom and doom... well... it's gloom and doom! lol

Sorry if you feel offended. And I'm sorry for you that you feel so upset about how things went for Carrara. Personally, if I was still using Carrara 6 or 7 Pro - or even 5 Pro... I'd still be praising it - because it did what I wanted it to back then! If you've had it since version 2 and you still don't like it... argh... I thought that I left! Forgot to uncheck the 'notify me' box.

Have fun in AutoDesk's Nine Grand verion of Max. I think that if you spent that on that... you'd really be upset - because you'd want your beloved Carrara back. Maybe not - because that is one amazing toolset that is. But from looking at whay dr-bernie wants, I doubt he'd be happy with the lower priced versions. When you want everything to be the way you want it - you often have to code it all yourself - like they do at the very largest of movie production houses - if they even still do that.

Carrara is amazing for the tiny price it costs and to disagree with that is, well... only in my opinion... thick. 8.5 was said, from the very beginning to be the support for Genesis and that it would not be free. Genesis has amazing value and it's only free because DAZ 3D allows it to be so. At a time when the whole country felt an enormous financial hit, and we would all have to put our 3d hobby endeavors on hold, DAZ 3D comes up with the incredibly cool idea of giving away three, beautiful software packages, a wealth of starter gear and, now I really like this one, starter instructions on how to build stuff for Genesis so that you can sell it. The instructions are incredibly simple, only because of the genius engineering they've put into their gorgeous DAZ Studio Pro. Over $200 (and worth it) software... and it's still free!

Wow... I'm still babbling? I better go to bed.

Dustrider,

Excellent points that, I guess, I was trying to say to dr-bernie as well. If you really want Shader and Vue and Cheetah and... nobody is stopping you from adding them to your toolbox.

Carrara's render engines have enormous possibilities. I really began to notice this when I built my eight core work station. Just clicking the "Best" boxes doesn't automatically set your image to be the best. Most of my renders are at very low settings in that regard - as I endeavor to optimize my shaders and lighting to cank out the look I'm after at very high speeds. I am in this for the animation. And Carrara is my all time favorite animation gymnasium.

I really do say that Carrara is the best, I guess. But that's because it's a true statement when it comes to me - what I need to do. The folks that I know whom use Maya or 3ds have to pave their own ways with that as well. Tools are constantly being created to aid us in our efforts - but the only way to have it completely done automatically is to hire someone to do it for you. But you gotta be nice to them or the cash just won't be enough to hold 'em.

Quote -  

@dr_bernie - Sorry if I was wrong about the time that was speculated on the inclusion of Embree into Carrara. Bottom line though on any new features, or featurettes, we, as users really have no clue as to how difficult or easy it is add things to Carrara. I do know from my own real life experience that working with someone else’s code, especially code that has been through several different owners, and is a compilation of two programs is no simple task.

My comments in this area reflect my own increased sensitivity to people without a clue who think programmers and IT staff can easily do things that actually are quite difficult. So if I was a bit over the top, I apologize.

Thanks DustRider for this clarification, much appreciated.

For the record I would like to quote what I said in post #4 of this thread:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2872177

Quote - Replacing Carrara's scaled-down and outdated Monte-Carlo routines with Intel's state-of-the-art implementation should not take more than 6 months for a developer who knows what he/she is doing, especially since Embree's source code seems to be really small.

I would like to add that Intel is most likely very willing to provide all the free consulting that a developer needs to implement Embree in a 3D app, thus actually absorbing some of the development costs.

This is really an opprtunity for Carrara not to miss.

"Carrara 8.5 sold more copies than any other version to date".

I don't beleve that. Are you saying all those people that bought it knew how to use it, and needed no help? Because the number pf posts from people needing help was very, very few compared to the release of C8. I think DAZ is feeding you a line of BS. Now I certainly wont argue the it was the best selling .5 update for carrara. Certainly can't argue with that. ;)

"DAZ 3D pricing is very low". Dartagnon

Compared to what? 3DS max? C4D? Houdini? If you use them as a comparisen, my car was low priced too. My point, the one you are missing, is DAZ promesed us for years C8.5 would be a nominal fee, which it certainly isn't. $110 is not a nominal fee. Especailly considering the last full upgrade was only $200.

"You cannot buy Poser Pro for what you'll end up paying for Carrara. Well... not you, because you don't want it. And you really don't. Because Genesis is really cool. And it just won't work properly at the moment without cms. People who have never tried Carrara before are now joining in and seeing why we're such a happy bunch. Carrara is simple, it's powerful, and no matter what sort of 3d design you fancy, Carrara has tools to help you do it". Dartagnon

Why ever would I want poser pro? I want a real CG app, not a dolly staging app. If that is what I wanted I'd use Studio.
Funny with CMS genesis works no better then it did with out. It was completely unnessary and DAZ forced it on us because they couldn't get many of us carraraests to use it any other way. Simple as that. DAZ wants their DRM on your machine. Not going to be on mine.

Dartagnon I got banned simply because I spoke out agains DAZ, I told the truths as I saw them. You just can't do that on the DAZ forum. Now if I had just went at fellow forum posters I never would have gotten banned. And you know just what I mean. On the DAZ forum it is ok to attack your fellow posters it isn't ok to attack DAZ. Simple as that.
I never spoke out against carrara.

"And when you say that there's something wrong with us standing up for what and who we believe in, well then perhaps it's not us who are in the wrong place". Dartagnon

Supporting a company you love is one thing, blinding youself to actual issues and carrying like DAZ can do no wrong is quite another. As in fan is good, fanatic is bad.

I'll also point out we had a new DAZ_ with the release of C8.5. He was active till the questions got too poignant and he had no answers. He's gone now and I had nothing to do with that. That is what happens to DAZ carrara reps, they get painted in to a corner and have no answers or explantions so just quit. And as far as Spooky, him and I have had personal issues for a few years.

"All that is is propaganda and ...Who really puts up with that"? Dartagnon

My freinds when I am at thier house and the news is on. I mean really; off topic, news is just politically bias misinformation any more.
None the less your argument there is apples an pomaganets. DAZ isn't some ones private home, it's a busness entitiy.

"Because it marks the beginning of the Carrara 9 development cycle - that's why". Dartagnon

DAZ was working on C9 long before the release of C8.5, and said as much.

"Sorry for laying it out like that". Dartagnon

No need to be, I love these civil conversational debates.

"Balance is good". Dartagnon

Agree, too bad the DAZ forum isn't. It's all rainbows, puppy dogs, and unicorns with no gloom and doom to balence it.

"Sorry if you feel offended. And I'm sorry for you that you feel so upset about how things went for Carrara. Personally, if I was still using Carrara 6 or 7 Pro - or even 5 Pro... I'd still be praising it - because it did what I wanted it to back then! If you've had it since version 2 and you still don't like it... argh... I thought that I left! Forgot to uncheck the 'notify me' box". Dartagnon

No ofence taken at all. But I am not that person, as I said my issues aren't with carrara, I love carrara, DAZ is what I have issues with, and DAZ's handleing of carrara is my issue.

"Genesis has amazing value and it's only free because DAZ 3D allows it to be so". Dartagnon

Genesis is free to sell you content for genesis, it's a marketing stratagy, not DAZ being magnanimous. Most all the DAZ figures I have were free, or I got very cheaply. Chris Creek knows this stratagy works, why do you think the Dawn base was free? Give you the base figure for free and now you need to buy the morphs, skins, clothes ect. it's a marketing stagy that works, and works quite well. Don't try to build DAZ up as being some magnanimous, benevolent entity when they are simply useing a tried, true, and succeful marketing startagy.

"At a time when the whole country felt an enormous financial hit, and we would all have to put our 3d hobby endeavors on hold, DAZ 3D comes up with the incredibly cool idea of giving away three, beautiful software packages, a wealth of starter gear and, now I really like this one, starter instructions on how to build stuff for Genesis so that you can sell it. The instructions are incredibly simple, only because of the genius engineering they've put into their gorgeous DAZ Studio Pro. Over $200 (and worth it) software... and it's still free!" Dartagnon

DAZ has done this right along, it's not new nor does it have anything to do with the financial crisis. DAZ has include free content with carrara since they bought carrara.

Of corse DAZ is giving instruction on how to build content for sales, that is how they make their money, off the backs of their PAs. It's in thier best interest to have as many PAs as they possably can, it's certainly not for your benefit. Me giving you the tools to make something for me to sell benefits me, not you. You do the work, I make the profit.

Now I am not at all trying to belittle anyone's content, I'm not putting carrara PAs down, but aside from the plugins made by some real geniouses, carraraest can do anything a carrara PA can. You, Ringo, even Howie aren't doing anything any carraraest couldn't. It's simply a matter of understanding the tools and having the ambition to do it. Now for me, since I have been using carrara for years, the only carrara content I am interested in buying it Howies. And that is simply because I am too lazy to spend months setting up a scene.

I say that like I haven't spent months setting up this swamp scene, but then I used lisa's plants so not something I could, or would be inclined to sell. Yes I could spend another month replacing the plants with carrara made ones and have a marketable swamp scene. I may need the money, but I wouldn't be selling it at DAZ {not with it's new management}, I'd be selling it some place where I like and know the people, and suport the brokerage. As I have said, with the lackidazical way DAZ has been developing apps the last couple of years, it is little more then a brokerage house now. DAZ makes their money from the PAs they broker, not from the one app they actually sell.

@ Dartagnon, quoting verbatim from your post

Quote - from the quote of me that you've included before asking that, I was not aware that you were going to add an entirely unreasonable list of demands that, personally, I hope do not get implemented. For those wanting to use different render engines, I would truly prefer that they contact the developer of the engine. They might need to contact DAZ 3D on a professional level to build the plugin. Carrara's render engines, the photorealistic engine specifically, is one of my favorite aspects of Carrara. I love it. I know an enormous amount of people whom also prefer to use it over many others.

Let me state that my  'demands' (which are actually wishes) were stated BEFORE you mentioned the impressive technology Daz is working on. I then asked you to explain how this new impressive technolgy will help me solve my problems. I also said that drawing hi-def lizards is not an acceptable answer.

 What I said was:

Quote - What I would like to see in C9 is more accurate processing of light, flawless blending between NLA clips, native support for sketchup models, a renderer using Embree, a professional camera, a better, faster and easier to use particle generator comparable to Particle Illusions, a better spline modeler, an overhauled mataball modeler, a polygon modeler comparable to Hexagon, improved landscape tools, an HDRI lighting that resembles Lightwave's, a scripting language like XPresso in Cinema 4D, a storyboard room that actually works, a flawless live physics engine, better rigging and weightmapping tools, live preview renderer that even Poser has, tons and tons of improvements to the UI, and I could go on for another 10 pages.

But since you are calling my wish list unreasonable and expect that none of it gets implemented, let me return your 'nice and professional' comment by saying that I have gone into all the pages of the 'Post Your Renders' thread' on Daz3D's web site, as well as your product page, and I haven't seen anything done by you that truly stands-out. Nothing that could even remotely qualify as material for the cover of 3D World magazine. You should come-up with significantly better work samples for me to take your opinions seriously.

I would like now to step through my wishlist and see which one is unreasonable and why none of them deserves to be implemented.

I am asking for more accurate processing of lights. Why is that unreasonable? 70% of any CG work is accurate and imaginative lighting, because you can hide modeling or texturing defects, but you cannot hide lighting imperfections.

Are you saying that you don't want better lighting in Carrara and would rather run the risk of letting a customer walk-away because of your work's poor lighting quality? Please explain why.

You don't want accurate blending between NLA clips? You'd rather let a contract with a local TV station slip into your hands, because your animation is jerky and unwatchable? Seriously?

You don't want native support for sketchup models? So Carrara can't use the vast resources of Google 3D Warehouse? I can't believe it.

You don't want Embree to be implemented in Carrara? By my estimate Embree could speed-up Carrara's renderer by as much as 30 times. You'd rather wait 30 hours for a render instead of just 1 hour? You can't be serious.

This is what Mark Bremmer said anout Embree in post #7 of this thread (emphasis added by me).

Embree

Quote - C4D r15 has engaged Embree and it has made a huge difference in my render times. It would be nice if Daz followed suit.

If I were Carrara's project manager trying to decide on a course of action for future developments, I would much rather rely on Mark's advice than yours, because Mark has been in this industry for many years and has positively contributed in jump-starting the creative talents in many of us, while you seem to have just started.

You want no professional camera? No fStop, no shutter speed, no aperture, no iso, no backlight, no white balance, no ability to simulate at least a couple of film grades? Oh my! Am I having a bad dream or what?

You don't want a better, faster and easier to use particle generator comparable to Particle Illusions? Not even something similar to Timeline FX Editor? You don't want your renders to stand-out with flashy FXes? You don't want to impress the customer and have him sign the contract on-the-spot? You are truly doing Carrara a disservice. FX are what make commercials, animations or even billboard ads eye-catching. FX are what keep the viewer awake and focused on the meassage you are trying to convey. FX are what motivate the customer to cut the fat check for you, and you say you don't want it? Man, this is getting worse than I thought!

You don't even want a better spline modeler, an overhauled mataball modeler, a polygon modeler comparable to Hexagon and improved landscape tools? You are doing modeling in Carrara, right? You don't want your workflow to be improved for the better? You don't want getting results faster so you are more competitive in pricing your products and services?

How about HDRI? You are not planning to use HDRI and Image Based Lighting ever? Oh well! You're missing 90% of the fun, that's all I can say.

No scripting language too? Something that would let you write routines like: 'If Victoria's X coordinate is less than 2 meters away from the gate's Y coordinate then open the gate and turn-off the alarm, else keep flashing the alarm.' Think of the possibilities that this would open to create animations blazingly fast, instead of laboriously creating them keyframe by keyframe.

You are against a storyboard room that actually works? So you can show your potential clients a quick proof-of-concept, so they don't run for the Maya/XSI shop next door? Have you ever heard of someone who shoots himself in the legs? Well, that is exactly what you are doing, no sarcasms intended.

I think I'll stop here. You don't want a flawless live physics engine, you don't want better rigging and weightmapping tools, you don't want a live preview renderer that even Poser has, and you don't want tons and tons of improvements to the UI, etc, etc.

I believe your standing-up for Carrara in an obsessive and uncompromising manner is more hurtful than useful. You are not helping Carrara become a better, more successful product attracting more customers, you are contributing to Carrara staying in the dilapidated state it is right now.

Carrara has many strengths, but also numerous weaknesses that need to be addressed, some of them are actually long overdue. Opting firmly against these weaknesses being corrected is counter-productive, and looking at users who mention these weaknesses as enemies makes talking to you, well, what can I say, a waste of time.　

"You don't want?"

Yeah... I do want improvements. But I don't let short-comings keep me from doing what I want to do. I don't make renders for the covers of magazines and the products are requests that have been getting very good feedback.

Manley mentioned about Carrara products being nothing that anybody with the ambition and know-how could do. That describes all content. It's how people became home-builders, too. Why do it yourself if you can buy one that was made by someone that already knows how.

I was asked by people I don't know to help create more presets for Carrara. It was a pleasure for me to do it and now I use my products myself, and really like them. I'm sorry if you feel that I might have led you to believe that I should be some highly-respected professional that you should pay attention to. I do not frequent these forums, and your list didn't show up in this thread until after I mentioned my excitement for new technologies coming. And, yes, I do respect Mark Bremmer.

I really don't mean to say that what you're asking for is unreasonable. But from the post I read above, the first one you added with your list, you mentioned that you "expect" Carrara to have This: xxx

I am relatively new in this field. I began by helping a team of people that I've never met before. Some simple textures I made for some models, and they contacted me and asked if I wanted to learn 3d. I was trained in some basic modeling in 3ds max 5. At home I practiced what I've learned on Gmax. I made clothes, hair and body parts for them - all very low poly-count, some had to have special modifiers painted on to blow in the wind correctly in the game engine. This was all very fun. I loved it. I made custom character models for use in the game and made one, specifically for my own use. I started posing the character around and shooting renders. The guy I was helping bought me Poser 5 and gave me a link to DAZ 3D. Not long after DAZ released the beta version of the first D|S. I still have the version 0.70 beta installer! :) Poser was fun. It gave me more time to pose and animate, since I didn't ave to model the people first - which I liked. Eventually the time came where I really needed a modeler to make the clothing and hair do what I wanted it to. Sure, there were some tools that could quasi-manipulate the mesh - but nothing like what I could do in Gmax or 3ds (Gmax is a dumbed down version of an older version of 3ds, made back when Discreet owned 3ds. Gmax was (and now is, once again) a free modeler specifically for editing game assets for the popular games back then).

When I found Carrara 6 at DAZ 3D, I was amazed at how inexpensive it was - considering all that one could do using it. I would definitely be needing the Pro version or I'd be left wanting what it doesn't have. Inexpensive as it was, it was not something I could afford. I tried saving, but I suck at that. It was my wife that eventually made it happen. Yeah... for poor ol' me, Carrara 7 Pro was expensive - but reachable. By the time I bought Carrara 7 Pro, I got the Carrara 8 Pro beta to try, and the official release for free once it comes out. The beta had a 64 bit version, so I barely touched 7, and just kept using the beta. The forums made it quite clear that Carrara's vertex modeler is a waste of time. "Why can't it be more like..." Finally delving into the modeling tools in Carrara taught me not to pay attention to the negativity surrounding Carrara on the forums. They do no good and are often the words of someone whom has given up too early.

Carrara has its weeknesses. I can agree with that. The developers have a long list of things that need to be fixed and more of things that people would like to see added. I have submitted both. I still do, as they come up. I am not opposed to the developers making Carrara all it can be. But I'm also grateful for what they've been achieving. What I mentioned about future technologies that I cannot divulge was not directly targeted as Carrara development. Just the future of DAZ 3D.

Now that I'm getting more active into modeling again, I am more impressed with Carrara than I was before. I have two friends that still use Carrara, whom used to work for Eovia - and I never hear either of them bash Carrara. But I'm sure that they submit constructive feature requests and bug reports.

Woe dude, dr_bernie you just don't go at others art work like that; unless it is actual load and shoot drival, that just isn't right.

More over I may argue with people, but it isn't hostile. Your post is belligerently hostile. There is no need of that in a conversational debate.

I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying but there is no need of all the hostility.

As I have said, I don't need light icons, they are nice but what I really need is better lighting. Whether DAZ can actually deliver that is questionable.

What you really need to look at, and what I question is is DAZ capable of delivering any of it? 2 years to deliver a .5 update that amounts to little more the tweaks and compatability with the latest dolly leads me to believe they aren't.

Now for me, I tried to work with genesis in the C8.5 beta, but inevativly I ended dropping it from the scene in favor of the much easier to work with mil4 figures. Which is why genesis compatability adds no value to carrara for me. Not only does genesis needs to work much better in carrara for me to use it, genesis needs to have all those little issues fixed so it works better over all. But I have no faith that will ever happen. DAZ has done nothing to fix any other issues with genesis since release, and appears to have done nothing to improve autofit since the first C8.5 beta.

And I'm sorry Dartagnon, I can't take your word about how suposedly impresive C9 will be because I know you are pretty easily impressed ;)

I recently had a discussion with over on the Daz forums about their EULA, specifically commercial use of 2d renders. It seems 2d renders are excluded from certain restrictions, such as redistribution. Not surprising. Commercial use of 2d renders allows people to earn a living by producing ads or animation.

But wait, they don't tell you that there are some uses that are restricted, and you will never know until you have done something you are not supposed to? Reading the EULA makes none of the statements I have recently been given.

One obvious thing you can't do with a 2d render is redistribute textures. That is covered by the EULA in another location.

So why would a company tell everyone that they can use 2d renders of their products commercially and then behind the scenes indicate that certain specific use is not permitted?

If they know what the use that is not permitted is, and it seems they do, otherwise they would not be able to say what it is, then why don't they put it in the EULA. I was told that there is certain usage that is not a logical inference from the EULA. This mean that they can essentially make up anything they wish if the EULA does not cover something.

How convenient.

You are ALL hereby warned. If you are selling your work produced with Daz products for ANY use, you will need to contact Daz for specific licensing. I am not posting this "over there" for obvious reasons.

@ ManleyStanley

I returned a 'nice and professional' comment with a 'nice and professional' comment. You call it what you want. It's your privilege.

 Now if we could for a moment focus on the topic at hand.

Look at this 3D app. It's called Project Messiah. It sells sometimes for as low as $299.- in its full-blown 64-bit pro version.

A couple of samples of work done with it:

http://www.projectmessiah.com/x6/vids/gallery/taron_pron_divx.avi

http://www.usefulslug.com/files/Xerxestest5.mov

You can see more samples in their video gallery.

Can the new technologies developed by Daz come even close to what the $299.- Project Messiah can do? So far I have not seen any animation done with Genesis or G2F to substantiate this claim.

Regardless, even if it's possible to create such animations with G2F, you still need a renderer capable of rendering the animation with a high degree of realism, otherwise all the work done on Genesis or G2F goes to waste.

In other words you need to incorporate a technology like Embree into Carrara to fully bring-out the details of hi-def meshes, otherwise hi-def meshes are useless.

And if anyone thinks that I will pay upwards of $500.- for an Octane renderer whose Carrara plugin will most likely never be developed beyond a 1.0.1 version, they're sadly mistaken.

Aniblocks; that carrara can import{badly}, will work on G2f; they screw up genesis though.

Now If I had C8.5 and was still on the DAZ forum I could show just what it is capable of. After all I ran it through it's paces with genesis during the beta; and found it sadly lacking.

Now I wont argue that some carrara features need updating{badly}. My argument is are the DAZ devs that working on carrara capable of doing it?

Or possibly more relevant, can it be done?

It could be a situation much like my hand writing. I only know 3 people that can read it and one of them is me. Could be a similar issue with the carrara codeing. The DAZ devs are having such a hard time figuring out how it's coded that they spent most of the C8.5 development cycle figuring it out.

There are questions that need to be asked that are more pertinent for making any sort of judgment like that. Like:

Are the devs that are working on carrara now the same one/s that were working on it 3 years ago?

Was the C8.5 beta so protracted because they had a new team on it? {although I'm hesitant calling 2 or 3 guys a "team"}.

Since we are well aware that the dev team at DAZ, for carrara, are none of the original developers of carrara, do they have enough understanding of the carrara coding to make these changes? If the coding actually allows for it.

My point is we shouldn't worry about the "I wants" till we know just if it is possible. I'm not as worried about the improvements needed to carrara as I am worried that the present development team is incapable of making them; for multiple possible reasons.

I mean really, I did the beta for two years, they had to be doing something besides just working on C8.5 for that 2 years. My opinion they started on C9 about 6 month after the first C8.5 beta release so C8.5 pretty well became secondary. So C9 may be impressive, but I can count the number of times DAZ has impressed me on one hand and not drop my cigarette.

But dude, really, you don't go at some ones art, that is just wrong. I feel it's every bit as bad as going at some ones mother. Now I may critique some ones art then follow up with suggestions on how to improve it, but you just don't go at someone's art like that.

dr_bernie wrote: "Look at this 3D app. It's called Project Messiah. It sells sometimes for as low as $299.- in its full-blown 64-bit pro version.

A couple of samples of work done with it:

http://www.projectmessiah.com/x6/vids/gallery/taron_pron_divx.avi

http://www.usefulslug.com/files/Xerxestest5.mov

You can see more samples in their video gallery.

Can the new technologies developed by Daz come even close to what the $299.- Project Messiah can do? So far I have not seen any animation done with Genesis or G2F to substantiate this claim.

Regardless, even if it's possible to create such animations with G2F, you still need a renderer capable of rendering the animation with a high degree of realism, otherwise all the work done on Genesis or G2F goes to waste."

This is actually a piece of software I own and have used. I bought it when it was on sale for around $60.00, as did several other Carrara, DS, and Poser users. It's an extremely impressive piece of kit .... for animating. Like EIAS, it's for animating only, that's one of the reasons it has such good support/integration with Modo, Lightwave, etc (plus it was created by ex-Newtek employees, as was Modo). The other reason for the great integration with other applications is that the render engine isn't as fast as some of the products that are used with it (about the same speed as Carrara).

What I, and many others who bought PM (Project Messiah) during their great sale found out is that it doesn't play well with Poser figures. For V4, M4, S4 etc. you can pretty much forget it. You need to weld the mesh, re-rig it, manually import all the morphs, and do the same with all the cloths, hair, etc. Also, V4 is simply to "heavy" to be used effectively use in PM. Genesis is a bit better story as far as performance, but you still have the problem of rebuilding most everything in PM. So for Poser/DAZ content users, it really isn't an option. For Carrara uses who don't use content (i.e. model their own characters), and want to upgrade their animation toolset, it's a great option (just don't expect faster rendering without an external rederer).

PM has the specific tools and scripting capabilities required for efficient animation. If you want fast rendering with PM, you'll need to either set up a small render farm (like many do with Carrara), or go to an external render engine. Of course you will also need to have additional support software for modeling your assets - Modo and Lightwave seem to be the two most popular companion packages.

For those who like to use Poser/DAZ content, our options are pretty limited. Genesis actually has the potential to open up some other venues for using DAZ content due to its lower poly count and use of subdivision surfaces. Unfortunately, Poser content is really designed for posing, not for animation. Meshes for animation are designed and rigged  much differently than Poser/DAZ content. They are also a lot more complicated than Poser figures (but simpler in many ways if that makes sense).

*** ***

dr_bernie wrote: "In other words you need to incorporate a technology like Embree into Carrara to fully bring-out the details of hi-def meshes, otherwise hi-def meshes are useless.

Embree would be a great technology to incorporate into Carrara, if possible at a reasonable cost. There is one large probable downside to this, especially for a company that caters to the hobby 3D market. Embree is an Intel tech, and may either not work, or work much less than optimally on AMD processors, which a lot of Carrara users have. Here is where Management at DAZ has to make another difficult decision - do they incorporate Embree, and by default endorse (the users would call it "force") the use of Intel processors, or not. Of course, Embree may work on AMD processors, I really don't know, I haven't been able to find any information on it.

However, I don’t have any problems bringing out the details of hirez meshed in Carrara, it’s just a matter of setting up proper lighting. As with any software, except for zBrush, 3D Coat, and maybe Modo, extremely hirez meshes will cause serious system/display slow down due to the amount of RAM required.

dr_bernie wrote: "And if anyone thinks that I will pay upwards of $500.- for an Octane renderer whose Carrara plugin will most likely never be developed beyond a 1.0.1 version, they're sadly mistaken."

That is of course your option, and you have a every right to your own opinion. However, if you want pro level tools, typically you have to pay pro level prices. The only real exception to this rule being Blender. Speaking of Blender - the licensing on Cycles (Blenders equivalent to Octane) just changed to Apache - which means that third party developers can now develop plugins for Cycles, or the software developers themselves can integrate cycles support in the products. So, it may be worth your time to contact SphericLabs and request a Cycles plugin similar to the Luxus plugin for Carrara.

I find it interesting that you are so dead set against purchasing a plugin to a professional render engine that will give you’re the speed you desire while requesting professional features in Carrara. Look at the professional packages like Maya, 3DS, Lightwave, C4D, etc., thee all have plugins or direct support for multiple external renderers. If you purchase Octane Render (the majority of the expense) and you have the option to purchase plugins to use it with Maya, 3DS Max, C4D, Lightwave, XSI, Rhino, Revit, Archicad, Poser, Inventor, Blender, and DS. Hardly a dead end purchase even if the Carrara plugin doesn't go past your guess of "1.0.1".

Many of the pro level tools that appear to be in the same price range as Carrara require that you purchase other software packages before you get to equivalent levels of functionality. True, by the time you do so, you'll typically far exceed the capabilities of Carrara, but you'll also far exceed the initial cost, upgrade pricing, and training requirements of Carrara.

I think that is where Carrara users experience so much frustration, Carrara is so close to being a true competitor to the big boys in so many ways, but falls a bit short in direct comparison. 

***Manleystanley wrote: “*But dude, really, you don't go at some ones art, that is just wrong. I feel it's every bit as bad as going at some ones mother. Now I may critique some ones art then follow up with suggestions on how to improve it, but you just don't go at someone's art like that."

Got to agree with Stan on this. Attacking someone at that level is simply uncalled for. This has been a very good discussion without any big pesonal attacks. Lets keep it that way. Besides, Dart does some really great work. It may not be what you like, but like any art form, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Giving a thoughtful critque of his art is perfectly fine - he he askes for it. But IMHO your comments were way over the top.

@dr_bernie - Sorry, I just looked at your gallery, and I can see why you might not be interested in Octane or other GPU based renderers. Your large scenes with multiple figures might take a bit of work to fit into GPU limitations :blushing:

Quote - I recently had a discussion with over on the Daz forums about their EULA, specifically commercial use of 2d renders. It seems 2d renders are excluded from certain restrictions, such as redistribution. Not surprising. Commercial use of 2d renders allows people to earn a living by producing ads or animation.

But wait, they don't tell you that there are some uses that are restricted, and you will never know until you have done something you are not supposed to? Reading the EULA makes none of the statements I have recently been given.

One obvious thing you can't do with a 2d render is redistribute textures. That is covered by the EULA in another location.

So why would a company tell everyone that they can use 2d renders of their products commercially and then behind the scenes indicate that certain specific use is not permitted?

If they know what the use that is not permitted is, and it seems they do, otherwise they would not be able to say what it is, then why don't they put it in the EULA. I was told that there is certain usage that is not a logical inference from the EULA. This mean that they can essentially make up anything they wish if the EULA does not cover something.

How convenient.

You are ALL hereby warned. If you are selling your work produced with Daz products for ANY use, you will need to contact Daz for specific licensing. I am not posting this "over there" for obvious reasons.

 

Well of course you can't extract the textures to use as textures. That's pretty standard. DAZ has a separate game developer's license if I recall. Maybe that's what you need?

The texturing is just an example, my end use is different. I think along with Stan, that is is unfortunate when pointing out the truth, Daz may not like what is said, but it is an opportunity for them to make corrections rather than take it as hostile criticism and shoot the messenger so to speak. Other users may benefit from the info.

Telling users what they can and cannot do with the product is needed if there are other restrictions that apply that are not stated. I am not trying to abuse the the system. I though that what I wanted to do based on a 2d image is fair use, since it is clearly stated in the EULA that commercial use of 2d image is permitted. Unfortunately this is only true up until it is not.

Any company that represses truthful info about their product or practices treads dangerous ground. 

@DustRider:

Thakns for your clarification regarding Octane. Actually the fact that Octane might not be able to fit a large scene in the GPU was what was holding me back. Since my main point of focus is animation, I would prefer to use a renderer that is native, super-fast and super-high-quality rather than use an external GPU based renderer, thus my insistance on having Embree built into Carrara.

Regarding Embree and AMD: your point is well-taken. I will ask in Embree's forums about it.

Embree is open-source and the source code is surprisingly small. I do sure hope that Intel has done it right and designed Embree in a way that it runs flawlessly, or at least can be modified easily to run flawlessly, on AMD processors as well.

Regarding Project Messiah: This is the kind of software that I would like Carrara to evolve into. Project Messiah has all the features that I could wish for. Its interface is nice and pleasant to work with, but the small font size and the small icons they are using causes eye-fatigue quickly, I wish they could address this issue.

I looked at their expression system and how relatively easily you can build complex procedural animations with it. I wish Carrara's formula system could be extended into a full-blown expression system similar to Ptoject Messiah's.

At this time my wish for Carrara is, if I can express it in a formula:

My ideal Carrara = Project Messiah + Embree + Daz/Poser content support + Weight-mapped V4/A4/M4/H4 (No Need for Genesis, at least not at his time) + Hexagon + Rejuvenated metaball and spline modelers + Some of Bryce's features + A storyboard room that actually works + Offered at a non-discounted price of $549 to $749.

I think it's doable and, at the prices I mentioned, it will be a profitable top-seller to the prosumer market.

Whether Daz, the Software Company, can do it is another story though.

One of the biggest on going and most dificult to stop crimes on second life is texture theft. I gave up on it. One of the things I do best is making textures with Genetica. I figured I could make a bit O coin on SL selling textures. With in a month of me releasing my first texture pack I found it as a freebie at one of those freebie box sites on SL. 

At one time I had 12 texture packs up on the SL merchant site. Before I quit SL you could find most of them free someplace "in world".

When DAZ released the last version of Hexagon it came with SL scuptiy tools. And I will admit aside from a couple of minor bugs, it worked great. DAZ stepped in to SL at that time, but was there very shortly as they watched people trample all over their copy rights. In fact you can find people selling mil2 and 3 skins all over SL. They drop the resolution, change them enough to match the SL character UVs, then start selling them.

So yes I can see why DAZ would be quite pareniod about texture theft. But this is nothing new. You've never been able to post screen shots of textures on the forum. I had a couple pulled where I was trying to show some seam mismaitches. So I don't see this as any sort of DAZ underhandedness, I see it as a sound busyness practice.

The issue is not with textures, that is understandable. I think that is pretty clear in the EULA.

What I want to do involved using heightmaps obtained from rendering posed figures to create reliefs (essentially sculpture viewed from one side only) for CNC machining. There are no 2d textures involved. Any surface patterning would have to created in the geometry.

The geometry from the original figures is not used, or transferred, to make the relief. So the 2d render only is used and the result, while superficially similar, is not at all the same. The is true for ads, illustration, animation, or whatever anyone else is doing commercially with their renders. They are not reselling the product, they have used it in a different form.

So I asked Daz to correct their EULA to reflect this new information that they gave me about heightmaps used to produce 3d models violating their EULA. They refused to acknowledge there is a problem with it.

So if they are not serious about correcting problems, then they must want the EULA to be non specific. Companies try to do this all the time, particularly in the area of patents, where they try to get the broadest interpretation patented. However, proprietary work requires specifics, and if they can't specify it, they can't own it or claim rights to it.

Therefore, their EULA is flawed. They certainly can't make up new conditions afterward. If they want to correct the EULA to state these limitation as they come up, thats fine, make it clear to users. But don't go charging anyone with violating the terms if the terms are not there to begin with.

I used to drop by Renderosity quite often to see what others were up to and get ideas. Just lurking mostly. Last few months I find that more ( not all ) posts are of a negative tone and I tire of it. Guess I'll check back in a few months to see if it has changed.

Quote - I used to drop by Renderosity quite often to see what others were up to and get ideas. Just lurking mostly. Last few months I find that more ( not all ) posts are of a negative tone and I tire of it. Guess I'll check back in a few months to see if it has changed.

You do know that this is only one thread. There are many other threads, including challenges and the like. You might want to try one of those.

I guess the software is working to your liking. That's wonderful.

@ManleyStanley

Quote - I still read the DAZ forum regular even though it is 90% DAZ propaganda by Dazzers, not carraraests.

Agree. Sadly, they're beginning to leak in over here.

Quote - I'm sorry but the biggest thing in C8.5 was genesis compatability, but it was done so poorly, and is so buggy it adds no value for me; and many others, to carrara. If DAZ wants me to pay $285 for a freaking .5 update it had better have the triax tools to work with the new content, that Studio has, and have them working as well.

Agree. Considering it doesn't work right, $50 (which I was expecting to pay) is too much.

@DustRider

Quote - Carrara is just one of the tools in my tool set, but Carrara is my favorite 3D tool. I do however understand that it can't do everything I would like it to do, and probably never will, so I have to use other tools in creative ways to do what I want. I would love for Carrara to have all of the features of C4D Studio, Vue infinite, and DAZ/Poser content compatibility, at the price DAZ currently asks for it! But, having been it the Technology/IT industry for almost 30 years now, I know that simply is not possible. I can’t afford $5,000+ for C4d Studio with InterposerPro, Vue Infinite, and the annual maintainance of it all (which is more than buying a full new license of Carrara Pro every year), so I'm quite happy that there is a great all round 3D app that uses DAZ/Poser content and is affordable for me.

Carrara is MY favourite 3D tool AND I have C4D! I love Carrara (I'm running C7Pro), I use it professionally and it's great.

Quote - At least the Dazzers over in the DAZ Carrara forum are actively trying to show/use the tools found in Carrara. They talk about the good and the bad of Carrara.

People over here do the same thing. It DOES help when the tools work correctly, though.

Quote - I realize that most of the people posting here seem to think all the b****ing and moaning will get DAZ to change their ways, that it won't hurt the sales of Carrara....
First, if I had never used Carrara, and read all the posts in this forum, I'd never give it a second look. If I read the posts in the DAZ Carrara forum, then I definitely would investigate further. Not everything is positive, but there is a lot of good information to be found, and some great examples of what Carrara, and the tools found in Carrara, can do.

I can't trust a damned thing in the Daz forums because I know they are so heavily moderated. And THAT hurts sales more than anything people "b*tching and moaning" will ever be able to do.

I have a few friends in the "real world" who, after hearing me rant about how GREAT C7Pro is, heard about C8.5 being released and decided to lurk in the forums over at Daz to see what the deal is. What scared them off from buying wasn't the "negativity." It was the fact that the software didn't work! It was the fact that they SAW negative posts removed or the few that remained being shouted down by Dazzers. They put their wallets back in their pockets.

I told them to lurk over here and one of them is actually giving the software a second look because this place is more balanced. Shocking.

Quote - Second, the idea of DAZ selling Carrara because it’s a losing endeavor? Highly, highly doubtful.

I am not personally an advocate for Daz selling Carrara. To Daz's credit they have kept the old boy alive and I'm afraid someone else may not even do as "good" a job as Daz has.

Quote - The negativity is so strong in this forum, that I actually started doing some serious research to see if there was an acceptable replacement for Carrara.

I don't see the negativity you're speaking of. I see a LOT of people stating the reality of the situation. THAT builds trust. When I see forums that have almost 100% support for everything, I KNOW to run the other way quickly.

It reminds me of Saddam Hussein. He had elections and the opposition only got ONE vote. So, that means the other guy's wife didn't even vote for him. So, does that mean the support for the "Butcher of Baghdad" was that strong OR that the election was rigged?

Further, I don't let other people sway me that much. If, as you say, Carrara 8.5 works well for you and you're getting the results you want, why look elsewhere?

Quote - Oh, I forgot to mention, I’m really glad we have people like Dart in our little community.

Damned right!

Quote - I've seen so many post in this forum lately about how horrible Carrara is, how DAZ has completely borked it, how expensive the upgrade is

Well, the LATEST version of Carrara IS horrible, because it doesn't work properly. If you had a car that you spend more time under the bonnet than you do behind the wheel, that lets you down when you need it most, that strands you periodically, would you smile and say nothing's wrong or would you at the very LEAST say something to try and get it fixed?

Daz HAS borked it. If the big "improvement" is Genesis compatibility and Genesis barely works (autofit, etc.) it IS borked. Pretending otherwise doesn't make it so.

The upgrade IS expensive. I'm a PC member. We were promised a nominal fee for the upgrade. No one was really happy about being charged for bug fixes and Genesis compatibility (considering it's free in DS4), but we pretty much "grinned and Beared" it. Nominal is $15 to $50. Not $85.

Quote - If you like Carrara, then maybe it would be good to start having a real dialoge about it's strengths and weaknesses. Show examples of both, and workarounds for the things that need them.

I LOVE Carrara. My favourite software.
People are having a real dialogue over here. Workarounds are about the LAST thing we need because most workarounds are only partially effective and extremely difficult to implement for many users. Further, if you create a workaround Daz won't take the time to fix the problem, because there is a workaround (no matter how convoluted).

Quote - Do I think DAZ is perfect? Not hardly, they have a history of shooting themselves in the foot more than any other company I know. But, the general negativity in this forum is not helping to move Carrara forward

There is no "general negativity" here. There are people stating there are problems. Frankly, if you stop seeing "negativity" here, that means one of 2 things. A). Daz has fixed many of the problems and C8.5 is a joy to work with OR B).The moderators here are deleting posts OR C).People no longer care enough to say anything.

Let's pray we option C never comes to pass.

Quote - "If you want features in Carrara that aren't there now, or certain bugs put on priority to be fixed, you need to present your argument in a professional manner building a case

Uh, I think that's what filing a bug report is supposed to do. Also, there is (or was) a place to send in product suggestions. Bugs going back several versions are still present.

Quote - Now back to your regularly scheduled DAZ3D and "Dazzer" bashing party.....

No one is bashing Daz. They are bashing some of Daz's bad behaviour. I think Daz does a lot of good things, when they aren't aiming that bazooka at their feet.

"Dazzers", on the other hand...
Nothing is worse than someone complaining about complainers. The general attitude is if no one says there is a problem, that means everything is okay. "Dazzers" attack anyone who doesn't say Daz can do no wrong. I remember it got so bad at one point before Daz just started deleting almost any negative post, the "Dazzers" would come in and post tons of smiley faces and cats after even the most mild complaint. THAT was disruptive AND not at all helpful.

@Dartanbeck

I'm going to respond to a few things. I mean no offence.

Quote - Carrara 8.5, like I've mentioned before, is truly the best Carrara to date.

Huh? The main reason for the "upgrade" is Genesis integration and it doesn't really work properly. Autofit doesn't really work and the CMS issue is a big problem.

Quote - Carrara 8.5 sold more copies than any other version to date. DAZ 3D pricing is very low.

This doesn't sound right at all. C8.5 has sold more copies than C7 or C8? Not likely, if you look at the state of the forums. I remember the release of C7 & C8 and the forums were abuzz with activity and people trying to learn the new features. Plenty of threads with renders, etc.

All I see now are a bunch of posts of people who can't find their content or to get autofit to work or whatever, and I'm not seeing nearly as many of these as you'd expect if sales to new users were so good.

When Daz told us about the upgrade, we were told it would be a nominal priced upgrade. $85 at the low end is NOT nominal. Especially for software that doesn't work right.

Quote - When the new forums came on line, many of us didn't even want to post it was so freaking anti-DAZ 3D. A little here and there is one thing. But these folks deserve much better than that.

When the new forums came online, people weren't anti-Daz, they were anti messed up forums. They were anti messed up marketplace. They were anti-security problems (for awhile, I would login and the Daz site would think my name was Jim or Bob or whoever). People were upset that we moved from a site that worked well (albeit with a few problems) to one that didn't work AT ALL. Then when it was obvious to everyone that the site was borked,(even Dazzers, who had spent time trying to convince everyone that the site was the best thing ever),rather than revert to the old site, they soldiered on with a site where nothing could be found, purchases couldn't be made, and forums that couldn't be used. THEN it became obvious they hadn't paid whatever company they bought their lemon of a website from for additional tech support to help them fix the disaster. No one was anti-Daz. They were anti-stupidity.

Quote - At a time when the whole country felt an enormous financial hit, and we would all have to put our 3d hobby endeavors on hold, DAZ 3D comes up with the incredibly cool idea of giving away three, beautiful software packages, a wealth of starter gear

This had less to do with the financial hit (which professional artists had been "hit" by years before the rest of the planet) than it did with the desire to sell content. They give away the software and you'll buy the content. Even at $2 here or there from casual users, that starts to add up to big money. Plus, If you get a few hardcore fans out of it and one or 2 professionals to add the software to their workflows, you've done well.

Quote - I was not aware that you were going to add an entirely unreasonable list of demands that, personally, I hope do not get implemented.

Doc Bernie's list was not of "Demands" but of wishes. Things he'd like to see implemented. He asked us to join in and add to his list. Some of the things on his list are not important to me. MY main wishes are they would fix what was broken in earlier vesrions of Carrara,and get us full Genesis compatibility (plus no CMS).

Quote - Carrara's render engines, the photorealistic engine specifically, is one of my favorite aspects of Carrara. I love it.

I love it too. I also love the Batch render feature.

So Dartan, I mean no disrespect to you and I don't believe anyone else here does either. Please accept my comments in the spirit in which they were given.

Best of luck!

Thanks, Tsarist. You said about all I have been itching to type about this subject. Save me a lot of typing. :)

I'm just beginning my professional journey and I'm taking Carrara (8.1) along for the ride along with an assortment of other tools to get the jobs done.

No one here is bashing the software. We all think it's great or we wouldn't be here. Our problem is with broken promises and an apparently broken update. I have no use for Genesis in Carrara. Some do and more power to them, but I don't. I also don't have the money to throw at a .5 update that gives me virtually no value. If 9 ever comes along and it has some meaningful improvements beyond Genesis compatiblity I'll probably bite, but if not then I will stick with 8.1.

Notice I didn't say I would find a new software if 9 is not to my liking. I will stick with 8.1. I've had a great time with the software, and I can accomplish most of what I need to do in it with power to spare. In fact, now that I've got a few pennies to spare I'm starting to acquire some of the awesome Carrara plugins out there to enhance Carrara's already awesome capabilities.

Other than that, Tsarist said it all for me pretty well.

What was the topic of this thread anyway?

Quote - The issue is not with textures, that is understandable. I think that is pretty clear in the EULA.

What I want to do involved using heightmaps obtained from rendering posed figures to create reliefs (essentially sculpture viewed from one side only) for CNC machining. There are no 2d textures involved. Any surface patterning would have to created in the geometry.

The geometry from the original figures is not used, or transferred, to make the relief. So the 2d render only is used and the result, while superficially similar, is not at all the same. The is true for ads, illustration, animation, or whatever anyone else is doing commercially with their renders. They are not reselling the product, they have used it in a different form.

So I asked Daz to correct their EULA to reflect this new information that they gave me about heightmaps used to produce 3d models violating their EULA. They refused to acknowledge there is a problem with it.

So if they are not serious about correcting problems, then they must want the EULA to be non specific. Companies try to do this all the time, particularly in the area of patents, where they try to get the broadest interpretation patented. However, proprietary work requires specifics, and if they can't specify it, they can't own it or claim rights to it.

Therefore, their EULA is flawed. They certainly can't make up new conditions afterward. If they want to correct the EULA to state these limitation as they come up, thats fine, make it clear to users. But don't go charging anyone with violating the terms if the terms are not there to begin with.

Isn't CNC machining just 3d printing (as in creating a 3d model)? That might be why it isn't allowed (and that is covered in the EULA).

DAZ's ELUA is the least of worries to most carraraests.

At the top of that list is nonfunctional or miss-functioning features.

Next would be updating outdated features.

For me next would be DAZ's lacking of and/or misinformation.

Anyone active; or even just reading, the DAZ carrara forum can plainly see there are very few new users to carrara, yet some one claimed this was the best selling version of carrara so far. And the BS meter says....

If you want to do some conspiracy theory reading reread the original C8.5 release thread at the top of the stickies in the carrara forum. Check those names of new posters bespeaking the greatness of DAZ and this carrara release. Now try to find any other posts they made. Or pick out the name of a professed new user, now find another post by them.

Like I said the Devs and mods at DAZ where a lot of different hats. ;).

Sorry Dartanbeck, I think DAZ is taking advantage of your trusting nature and misleading you. They are using your trusting nature and peoples trust in you to spread misinformation. I'm sorry, but I have seen no evidence that would lead me to believe that C8.5 wasn't the biggest build flop of carrara's history.

I'd think you would know to take anything DAZ tells you with a grain or 3 of salt. DAZ has a bad habit of making promisses then doubling back on them. They depend as much on misinformation as forum moderation to keep them selves looking all shiny.

Quote -
Anyone active; or even just reading, the DAZ carrara forum can plainly see there are very few new users to carrara, yet some one claimed this was the best selling version of carrara so far. And the BS meter says....

If you want to do some conspiracy theory reading reread the original C8.5 release thread at the top of the stickies in the carrara forum. Check those names of new posters bespeaking the greatness of DAZ and this carrara release. Now try to find any other posts they made. Or pick out the name of a professed new user, now find another post by them.

Like I said the Devs and mods at DAZ where a lot of different hats. ;).

Hmmm. Never looked at that before. I went over and did some digging through that thread. Interesting. There are a lot of names that pop in with 2 or 3 posts and then nothing. Those names don't appear in any other thread in the forum on any other subject. You'd think people new to Carrara would be asking at least one question regarding the software they just bought.

Quote - Isn't CNC machining just 3d printing (as in creating a 3d model)? That might be why it isn't allowed (and that is covered in the EULA).

The issue is that Daz says renders can be used commercially. A heightmap is a render. It is possible to reinterpret 3d information from a heightmap; however, it is not the same as the original 3d geometry. No conflict or infringement there.

Therefore, Daz is claiming that their allowing commercial use of renders does not cover heightmaps. It does not say this in EULA.

Quote - If you want to do some conspiracy theory reading reread the original C8.5 release thread at the top of the stickies in the carrara forum. Check those names of new posters bespeaking the greatness of DAZ and this carrara release. Now try to find any other posts they made. Or pick out the name of a professed new user, now find another post by them.

When a company (or people for that matter) start lying to cover their butt it is generally a self perpetuating process. So the lies and deception start to show up everywhere. 

Quote - > Quote - Isn't CNC machining just 3d printing (as in creating a 3d model)? That might be why it isn't allowed (and that is covered in the EULA).

The issue is that Daz says renders can be used commercially. A heightmap is a render. It is possible to reinterpret 3d information from a heightmap; however, it is not the same as the original 3d geometry. No conflict or infringement there.

Therefore, Daz is claiming that their allowing commercial use of renders does not cover heightmaps. It does not say this in EULA.

I don't know the technology or what a height map is, but if a height map is a 2D image then it can be used commercially. However, neither you or the person who buys them can use them to create a 3D model. It is creating a 3D model that isn't allowed, no matter how it was created.  Otherwise every one could just say "I didn't use the original 3D geometry, the computer translated it to electrical signals and my printer used these electric signals and not the original 3D geometry to create the 3D model"

PS: I don't know about legal stuff, so don't take my word for it.

Quote - I don't know the technology or what a height map is, but if a height map is a 2D image then it can be used commercially. However, neither you or the person who buys them can use them to create a 3D model. It is creating a 3D model that isn't allowed, no matter how it was created.  Otherwise every one could just say "I didn't use the original 3D geometry, the computer translated it to electrical signals and my printer used these electric signals and not the original 3D geometry to create the 3D model"  

PS: I don't know about legal stuff, so don't take my word for it.

Your comment illustrates the confusion.

Daz says, use our models to make renders which you can sell. They also say you cannot manufacture our models using any 3d manufacturing technique.

So a render that is used to produce a physical 3d model that is not the same as the original does not fall under any limitation. 

It the same as saying, "That indie movie you made with our content is very nice. Now we are going to charge a royalty for every sale that was made."

And then you say, "Well, that wasn't in your terms to start with. You said I can use the content commercially."

And then they say "We have a limitation of 100,000 impressions (or sales/use) of our figures before we start charging. The fact that we did not state this previously is irrelevant."

From the EULA (I left out points 1 & 2, since they are not relevant here):

"Subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement, User may (i)... ...(iii) publish, market, distribute, transfer, sell or sublicense User’s two-dimensional animations, renderings and other works; provided that User may not in any case publish, market, distribute, transfer, sell or sublicense any renderings, animations, software applications, data or any other product from which any Content, or any part thereof, or any substantially similar version of the Content can be separately exported, extracted or de-compiled into any re-distributable form or format. All other rights with respect to the Content and its use are reserved by DAZ and its licensors."

So apparently even the height maps are illegal to distribute, since there are restrictions that apply to 2D renders as well.

"Substantially similar" could cover just about anything. If you make a movie and sell it with Daz content, Daz could argue that once you make enough profit, "Substantially Similar" means something very different.

Quote - "Substantially similar" could cover just about anything. If you make a movie and sell it with Daz content, Daz could argue that once you make enough profit, "Substantially Similar" means something very different.

Could be, I'm not going into the tinfoil hat part of this discussion. The point is that the part of creating 3D models is in the EULA and they told it to you when you inquired about it, so you can't say that they "represses truthful info about their product".

My two cents (plus montgomeryy city-county and alabama sales taxes)...

I have aquired carrara less than five months ago, so the claim that there are few new uers is somewhat lisleading. I too, have several issues with tne way DAZ conducts business, but not enogh to make me md as heck. Although i have been in 3d art for years, i can relate to someome who is trying to share his experiences with the app he uses and hopes he not be blasted for that. I suuport dart in this matter. You never really know what goes inside a company, so speculation is all that we have to take. I feel as if to,any in the thread have been foaming at the mouth with crap. Lets calm down fer a bit.

~GO