Just a though here. Why not offer a free version of Poser for 3d enthusiasts? Maybe a stripped down version with say, limited lighting options or limited rendering capability, those are items you can get in an upgrade to pay for. I ask this because as a vendor who offers both DS and Poser versions of my products, the DS version outsells the poser version 2 to 1 or better. My guess is that there are two things that are drawing people to DazStudio. First off, it's free. If i was new to 3d and wanted to test the waters, I would most certainly go for DS. By the savings in cost of the software, I could purchase items to use in the program. This is not just a benefit to venders but to renderosity as well, they get a cut of sales. Second, DazStudio Genesis figures are pretty amazing in terms of rigging and conforming clothing that seems to just work without a lot of tweaking. There are some good Poser figures though, and a free version of Poser might entice new users to the marketplace. Just a thought. I really have always wondered why the makers of Poser never did that. Any thoughts? Davo

I have been wondering that for years. When daz offered studio for free, i often said poser is in trouble. Sure it is human nature to test free stuff. The problem is, poser was/is software driven and not so much content driven. I know R'osity is trying to turn that around and this takes time. It is hard nowadays to lure people in with paid software while the other company offers a competitive product for free.

It is hard nowadays to lure people in with paid software while the other company offers a competitive product for free.

You got that right. Poser is also pretty useless without content. There is so much affordable content at Renderosity and I think the V4/M4 figures are still pretty heavily used and I know there is a ton of affordable content here for them. This would be a boon for vendors, especially Poser vendors.

Sure, what are we without content? I think a lot of users have now learned how to make their own content or kitbash several to make what they want. I think that is detrimental for Poser vendors. It is a good thing people learn new things. I also think promo pictures should be extremely well done, and i havent seen any ( sorry) from the poser team that have good promo pictures like say daz has. Marketing is also lacking, You can say what you want about reallusion but they have great marketing strategies.

Bondware Failed already after August 2019 and did not show any Interests supporting any Creators, Vendors , or Customers especially if there not on there exclusive Profit list ! the Call home feature does it also not make it any better. Creations are getting more difficult as of the loss of many Pyton Plugins in the new version. As long as they will fallow this Marketing strategy they will lose more and more experienced Creators. things already look like at Content Paradise in here, it is as if they turned back the clock for decades falling back to poser 4 quality when looking at the latest Poser releases. Not because it would not have the potential but because they lost all great creators on DS.

I have allot of respect for your Creations "Davo" you are one of the few old ones that still try to support poser with great Quality products, and probably also one of the few that keeps poser alive. I even buy your poser Versions just to offer some motivations even that I do not use them.

I think a lot of vendors left due to the fact poser is pretty archaic when it comes to content creation. I think they saw there was more money to be earned with Daz studio and they dabbled into it. Then found out it is just a few clicks to pack your content and ready to upload.

Or course Daz has been using poser for years and knew exactly what posers shortcomings where and arem and when they built their software they where able to avoid those mistakes and shortcomings to some extend. Basically poser still runs on the same old software engine and they just add lines to update it. Which also means extra new bugs ( like some features of cycles are not being able to being implemented) Daz studio is newer so they have less of a problem with those things eventually they will run into things like this too. Or they rebuild the sofware from the ground up.

Wow... a very good question and... what's following next is the same talk I've seen since daz studio exists, 10 years? 15 years?

I've tested daz v1, and I gave up. I've tested their last version: 1 g8 + 1rpublishing scene + 1 infinity light = 1 hour + 1 crash, everythin freshly installed. DS has good ideas. The fact that their v1 was poor and lacking of a useability was 100% normal. But after all these years, I constantly see DS users angry or disappointed by a modern version still full of bugs, not to speak of the poor usage of any nvidia cards.

Free software? yes, as an entry point. Comparable to poser? not, till you have bought all the addons to make it comparable from the tools point of view. And still not comparable from the stability and crash points of view.

G8 is great, it's even awesome, technically. but daz doesn't want you to go to far from their business: I've seen numerous daz users complaining about really usefull export addons that doesn't work correctly, and still not corrected. I've managed to import a G8 in poser: it looks good, but we loose the subd, because... well because daz doesn't want you to export the result of the subd operation.

Different companies, different marketing strategies, different ways to dive in the 3D world: a choice to do, and by all means stop comparing what is not comparable. I'm somewhat tired to read these constant complains about poser...

One huge outsider could wipe this war out with the back of the hand: Blender: free and really powerful. Luckily for both companies, it doesn't seem to be the case.

Don't forget: The Studio: still needs correction for recurring bugs, lacks of stability and speed for rendering, hold by a company which seems to focus on... something else, more crypto-what-ever...

I did not mean it as something bad or what have you. I use both and I think stduo is much easier especially for vendors. I don't use plugina for Daz studio other than goz.

I just wanted to point out that poser is capable of a lot of things but people don't show it often or don't share as much as in the beginning. I get of course there has to be revenue to develop a new version. And I glad for people that don't have a Nvidia card, still can use gpu rendering.

Liquid_Ice posted at 3:55AM Fri, 23 April 2021 - #4417470

I did not mean it as something bad or what have you. I use both and I think stduo is much easier especially for vendors. I don't use plugina for Daz studio other than goz.

I just wanted to point out that poser is capable of a lot of things but people don't show it often or don't share as much as in the beginning. I get of course there has to be revenue to develop a new version. And I glad for people that don't have a Nvidia card, still can use gpu rendering.

And I agree with you on these points ?

A potential content developer will need a full version of poser to test his/her products under the ideal conditions of lighting and rendering, particularly for product promo renders, so a "limited feature" free version,of poser would be of ZERO usefulness.

I used to make my own custom clothing for the Genesis 1,2,3 figures before leaving the DAZ genesis eco-system for Reallusion/CC3. rigging a clothing item for Genesis is three mouse clicks in Daz studio

It is even easier with the Autoweighting tools in CC3 pipeline and we have better adjustment options in Reallusion CC3 pipeline than Daz studio.

I have tried the "Fitting room" in poser pro 2014 ( it is not very good)

IMHO unless they have made some major upgrades since then, making poser free wont attract new incoming content creators nor will it sway any existing Daz content creators to start developing for LF&LH and learning to make "superfly" materials along with Iray.

Poser needs something new and rhriling. First it lost ground to DAZ Studio, now it is behind Reallusion‘s IClone and Character Creator and now Meta Human has been released. If Meta Human becomes a real software product not browser app, than nobody will remember Poser anymore. Poser remains stuck back in the 2ks, and Bondware failed to change that.

Now seriously , do you really think they care about it, they are Brokers, if one thing does not work they just jump on the next thing they can put into the store. even if one day they just sell addons for IClone or Metahuman, at the end it is up to the creators or Vendors to decide for what software they wish to produce the models for !

Poser Sales are almost dead no matter how good the product might be, no matter how cheap you sell your hard work, you already realize it on the handfull active members in the Poser forums ! I still say that keeping that call home system and then blaming it on Smith micro , shutting down older poser versions Blaming smith micro but still continuing with this system just caused a big Los of Trust !

I was suggesting a free version of Poser to get people in the door to 3d rendering, not necessarily to become a content provider, just people want to just "make art" because they can't draw by hand worth a crap, which is the reason I got poser in the first place. Money saved on having a free version would be money to spend on content, thus helping those who are vendors already to a fresh field of customers. I think this could help Poser vendors with some sales. I know DS has it's good points and Poser as well, the point of the thread was not to compare the two products, or any products for that matter, just focus on Poser. I know some people who have picked up DS and found it to be rather confusing with it's interface, millions of features that nobody understands or will probably never use. Poser is a little more straight forward and not so hard on the PC as Iray seems to be, (but that could just my opinion because I've used it for so long). Those were my thoughts anyway.

There's no question that giving away Poser would improve revenue for people selling Poser content. More users, more purchases. There's just a question of whether Renderosity would see a big enough fraction of that to cover the development costs of Poser.

If you made a free version with add-ons, what would you cut? You could split off the parts for content creation, e.g. the fitting room, but I don't know that anyone would pay for it (it is, at least, not intuitive enough) and discouraging vendors from supporting Poser is probably counterproductive too. You could make Superfly paid only, but that would interfere with its adoption. Animation?

davo posted at 11:09PM Fri, 23 April 2021 - #4417429

It is hard nowadays to lure people in with paid software while the other company offers a competitive product for free.

You got that right. Poser is also pretty useless without content. There is so much affordable content at Renderosity and I think the V4/M4 figures are still pretty heavily used and I know there is a ton of affordable content here for them. This would be a boon for vendors, especially Poser vendors.

Honestly, the lines are pretty much drawn by now as to who the users are. I don't like Genesis or Studio for that matter and would prefer to use to Poser. For that matter, I'd rather use Blender if I had to choose free software, so in my eyes, at least, there's little benefit in giving out a free version of Poser. Poser's saving grace would be in ultimately differentiating itself from Studio so much that people would prefer it over Studio, not becoming a carbon copy of it's competitor. Renderosity on the other hand, has a different problem. It has to decide which side of the bread it's butter is on. That means selling less stuff for Studio and concentrating more on Poser features and Poser content.

I don't think Renderosity has to choose between Studio and Poser. They aren't making the content, they are just providing a venue to sell it. Offering Studio content isn't pulling their developers away from working on Poser. It would be a choice if Renderosity was a content creator with finite development resources to distribute between the products, but that's not the position they're in.

They could decide to give incentives for Poser content creators over DS, but that's a fine line to walk. If they drive Studio content out of the store, then there are fewer people here to see what they're accomplishing with Poser. Might be counterproductive.

I have to give Davo Right ... If Poser would be free ( Like it was already proposed many times ) at least the Poser 11 versions down it would sure in first hand attract customers and users. they would download and install it on there machine, this would be the first Act. then they would start to use it, causing them to look for content this is the second Act. The third would be that it would generate new Customers, new Collectors, new Creators. Not that they have to be the old ones coming back I mean New ones.

The big difference between Rendo Bondware and others like Daz ... Blender... IClone... Metahuman is that " Renderosity is just a Broker just selling what they get from Creators for a Fee " all others have Developers teams on their Loan list that Provide own 3D content to Improve there Software. Se Daz they develop since Decades new Base Figures. Renderosity Lived and kept them selves alive with these Content Developers. So concerning LA and LM there would be a long way to go to have success without a experienced 3D Developer Team. In Fact Renderosity is and will remain just a Brokerage!

So what Davo was mentioning sure would be the best solution to have Poser for free as if Renderosity does not want to have a development section for 3Dthey will need to attract new Creators that are willing to offer New content for Poser.

Btw : Even Smith Micro had there Content Developers Providing a whole bunch of New Figures that came along with new Poser releases, What I am saying is Rendo just took stuff offered by there Sellers to add as Free offer into there new release so actually not a official Part of there New release. Just aother Brokerage.

Like it or not selling Genesis content is still lucrative as it has a very loyal following.

Any attempt to force vendors to support other figures is a fools gambit, as hivewire discovered when they required and sellers of Daz genesis content to make a matching product for the hivewire natives.

Where is the hivewire store today???

Bondware should sell whatever vendors choose to make

IMHO poser is a commercial dead end for content creators....dead... end!!

And frankly even Daz's days may be numbered if Epic Games provides a really easy way to create custom third party content for those incredible Metahumans

Reallusion has wisely hedged their bets.

Their online ActorCore Character motion store is better than Mixamo, as it delivers quality motion capture in the native format of the major 3DCC's (Maya ,Blender, C4D)-no Daz studio support.

Reallusion Already has a beta connector app for NVIDIA's Realtime ,RTX based "Omniverse"system that supports the major 3DCC's (Maya, Blender ,C4D)-no Daz studio support. And the $199 CC3 pipeline app can convert any genesis figure ,clothing & hair (prior to 8.1),to a native Iclone look alike avatar

We even have a free Autoset up tool for Blender that easily converts our native CC3 Avatar textures to blender nodes upon import via FBX

The 3D Character market is moving forward at rapid pace and is very competitive with many NEW options beyond the old Daz studio or poser paradigm.

@ Wolf You having good Points and they are very true, sort of if you have time and motivations with some skills all these of you mentioned Programms are outstanding. but there is the other side, the ones who do not have all this time, not having the Skills and the learning New ones, that is where Poser might be the option to offer a startup into 3D. Starting off with Blender that is a very heavy step for sure :) and most will give up already after the first Launch of Blender. That is where Poser comes in or Daz there a little like a PC Game setting up your Provided Characters " Remember Oblivion " For most it is even not more then just a collection of nice things giving them the Impression of being Creative. Most Poser users do not really want to go deep into the 3D creation universe they just want there Barbies with the clothes that come with them not more. As for the minority would be the ones who provide these addons for the ones who just want to create a little 3D universe. Like a Game just setting up your Characters it is also the main reason why Poser DS survived all these years.

The point is naturally if Bondware continues that way then Poser will just Vanish just like an old Game but Blender Iclone or Metahumans will not really be a replacement for it , these users will then rather buy a PS5 console and build up there little 3D worlds in there. As Majority of Poser users never had in mid to be 3D creators they just want to pass some relaxed moments setting up provided stuff after there hard working Day. Or even for some it might be a kind of social company replacing there lonleyness.

wolf359 posted at 8:45AM Sat, 24 April 2021 - #4417556

Like it or not selling Genesis content is still lucrative as it has a very loyal following.

Any attempt to force vendors to support other figures is a fools gambit, as hivewire discovered when they required and sellers of Daz genesis content to make a matching product for the hivewire natives.

Where is the hivewire store today???

Bondware should sell whatever vendors choose to make

IMHO poser is a commercial dead end for content creators....dead... end!!

And frankly even Daz's days may be numbered if Epic Games provides a really easy way to create custom third party content for those incredible Metahumans

Reallusion has wisely hedged their bets.

Their online ActorCore Character motion store is better than Mixamo, as it delivers quality motion capture in the native format of the major 3DCC's (Maya ,Blender, C4D)-no Daz studio support.

Reallusion Already has a beta connector app for NVIDIA's Realtime ,RTX based "Omniverse"system that supports the major 3DCC's (Maya, Blender ,C4D)-no Daz studio support. And the $199 CC3 pipeline app can convert any genesis figure ,clothing & hair (prior to 8.1),to a native Iclone look alike avatar

We even have a free Autoset up tool for Blender that easily converts our native CC3 Avatar textures to blender nodes upon import via FBX

The 3D Character market is moving forward at rapid pace and is very competitive with many NEW options beyond the old Daz studio or poser paradigm.

I think you're misreading the market, Wolf. Besides, Hivewire hasn't gone anywhere. Chris is still there making figures, as is Alisa, Paul and Ken. Sadly, all we've lost is Lisa, and that wasn't due to any market forces.

Chris has stated many times that the store was closed to concentrate on the figures which, after ten years, tells you that they're very viable. The store wasn't bought out, it closed. Besides, we know where your loyalties lie.

Azath posted at 8:57AM Sat, 24 April 2021 - #4417557

@ Wolf You having good Points and they are very true, sort of if you have time and motivations with some skills all these of you mentioned Programms are outstanding. but there is the other side, the ones who do not have all this time, not having the Skills and the learning New ones, that is where Poser might be the option to offer a startup into 3D. Starting off with Blender that is a very heavy step for sure :) and most will give up already after the first Launch of Blender. That is where Poser comes in or Daz there a little like a PC Game setting up your Provided Characters " Remember Oblivion " For most it is even not more then just a collection of nice things giving them the Impression of being Creative. Most Poser users do not really want to go deep into the 3D creation universe they just want there Barbies with the clothes that come with them not more. As for the minority would be the ones who provide these addons for the ones who just want to create a little 3D universe. Like a Game just setting up your Characters it is also the main reason why Poser DS survived all these years.

The point is naturally if Bondware continues that way then Poser will just Vanish just like an old Game but Blender Iclone or Metahumans will not really be a replacement for it , these users will then rather buy a PS5 console and build up there little 3D worlds in there. As Majority of Poser users never had in mid to be 3D creators they just want to pass some relaxed moments setting up provided stuff after there hard working Day. Or even for some it might be a kind of social company replacing there lonleyness.

I think Azath here is also misreading the market. Actually, I was a lot like Wolf when i first came to Poser. I wanted to do animation. My biggest regret about Poser was that it never lived up to what it could have been animation-wise. I ended up doing mainly still art and some comics. I know they would never take my advice, but I still say it's foolhardy to chase after users with a carbon copy of a free program, even if you make the program free itself. You improve the program by giving it better features. Poser has good features, but it has a habit of stalling on the development of those features and letting others come from behind and overtake them. The Cloth Room, the Hair Room, Bullet Physics, The Face Room, and even animation. All stalled or basically discontinued, instead of being improved. And to be honest, Poser never was a contender with figures. They always left that up to others, like Zygote, which became DAZ, and overtook them.

@ EClark1894

I think the Point Davo brought out is Important to keep Poser running at least for the content creators it is. Renderosity just fallows the Smith micro Marketing by letting that call home feature on, then actually just targeting with many updates integrating the Rendo store into it, meanwhile all walk away!

Wolf is having good Points at least for the ones who have the capabilities of using other 3D software and not just Poser , actually Poser depends on these Other 3D software Programms to generate content. Poser it self is just a Platform to present what has been created with other software.

Sure at the end it is a waste of time spending hours in these Poser forums looking for a solution as Rendo does not really care about it and for creators Like Davo or me it is just a question of time on how long Poser could be supported with new content.

See the owners here most of the Rendo workers are not even capable of using Poser in a deasent way Presenting great Renders as far as I have seen until now !

@Earl Sure Chris and a few dedicated others, are still "making figures" but where are they being marketed and sold??

If you say at Renderosity then "Hivewire" is really just a dedicated group of poser content merchants selling poser stuff here amongst the wheat & chaff like any other group of poser or Daz genesis,Iclone/CC3 merchants in the RMP.

And sorry but this narrative that" I closed my commercial store front (that was started to be a direct competitor to the DAZ store) , to focus on making figures myself"

sounds a bit too much like a failed resturaunt owner saying he closed his business & fired most of his staff so the remaining loyalists could focus on the joy of cooking ourselves and peddle our dishes at the local mall food court next to "Chick fillet" and "Boardwalk fries"

In this figure & content market you need to be either $$$huge$$ and wealthy enough to have a team of
content makers employed full time by your company ,Like Epic games with the Meta-humans for UE4.

Or you need to have brokered , third party creators
contract with you because they see your product/software eco-system as competitive in the current market and a good bet to possibly earn a living.

I think you're misreading the market, Wolf.

So Earl, what is your analysis of the 3D figure animation & content market, regarding posers ability to compete with Daz studio& Genesis 8x, Reallusion Iclone/CC3&Actorcore, or NVIDIA Ominverse or the Epic MetaHumans in 2021??

what am I missing here??

Poser users Deluded themselves into thinking that Daz Studio will never be a "replacement for poser" based on the very weak feature set of the versions of DS prior to 4.x

Daz did not need to "replace poser" or even convince poser end users to switch over they only needed a platform for selling their higher quality figures& content and a better render engine, so they could focus on adding features (mostly third party like the aniblock system), to Daz studio ,while keeping it free with ALL of the better clothing rigging tools for NEW vendors and the major content vendors left poser behind.

Most Poser users do not really want to go deep into the

3D creation universe they just want there Barbies with the

clothes that come with them not more. As for the minority

would be the ones who provide these addons for the ones

who just want to create a little 3D universe. Like a Game

just setting up your Characters it is also the main reason

why Poser DS survived all these years......Poser will just

Vanish just like an old Game but Blender Iclone or

Metahumans will not really be a replacement for it , these

users will then rather buy a PS5 console and build up there

little 3D worlds in there.

That is my exact point. There are many other options now and all of them have nice looking, young ,white women now.

The old poser die hards ,you see lingering here, are not

really anyone's target demographic anymore except bondware who actually owns the program.

The new younger smartphone generation is very tech savvy and not so intimidated by Blender Iclone or UE4. and not even vehemently opposed to subscription based services

They are the future market for 3D figure interaction.

There is something that I really don't understand... But please, see no aggressiveness on my part

Poser is dead, or dying... Ok, and now? Why are you all still here debating that fact?

I'm 61, and my everyday job keeps me occupied nearly 9 hours a day, 5 days a week, and on week-ends I have a lot to do far from my computer. Poser is fine for me: it's a hobby, and it works without crashing every 2 or 3 hours such as daz. Actually, the Daz company has enough ressources and financial power to make a perfect The Studio program, but 10 years after, their V4.xxxxxxxx is still making angry a lot of people, as they seem more interested in crypto-what-ever-stuff

Their G8 family looks awesome, indeed, but Daz refuses that the simple users we are to export a decently subD-ed character. Their choice? ok, I respect, and I'm staying away of their world... Especially since any Vic4 ported to Saha-16 bends perfectly. Furthermore, I have enough clothes, hairs, etc... and there are enough vendors creating items for both worlds.

All this is perfect for me, as it's a hobby. Of course I'm not a professional. And that's the reason why I will not invest time in Blender, and I will not invest a single cent in the professional programs that have been cited above. They are not for customers like me.

Someone explained that the younger generation are really tech savvy. Yes. And they are often in a hurry. Learning Blender? it comes a long time after they have been disappointed by Daz or Poser. and not everybody has the money to invest in iClone, and whatever. And even more after a "covid year" that has put a strong end to a world that was running faster and faster in a dead-end

Let me repeat it: I respect the needs of the professionals. Really. But we have inherited of a world in which the lifespan of the products sold is shorter and shorter. Something must be changed, in depth. Our economic model has lived, and is dying because of a really small virus.

I don't know where all this will push us all, but one thing is sure: if Poser dies, this will be the end of the 3D world for me, and for many people, from what I'm gessing thourgh what I can read on social medias. Oh... we are a really small market, and it doesn't matter?

Fine. So, no need to repeat what I read about Poser dying, since Daz has decided to follow a new, incompatible way, with their Genesis family, 10 years ago. And Poser is still there, dying.

Take care of you.

Y-Phil posted at 4:17PM Sat, 24 April 2021 - #4417595

There is something that I really don't understand... But please, see no aggressiveness on my part

Poser is dead, or dying... Ok, and now? Why are you all still here debating that fact?

I'm 61, and my everyday job keeps me occupied nearly 9 hours a day, 5 days a week, and on week-ends I have a lot to do far from my computer. Poser is fine for me: it's a hobby, and it works without crashing every 2 or 3 hours such as daz. Actually, the Daz company has enough ressources and financial power to make a perfect The Studio program, but 10 years after, their V4.xxxxxxxx is still making angry a lot of people, as they seem more interested in crypto-what-ever-stuff

Their G8 family looks awesome, indeed, but Daz refuses that the simple users we are to export a decently subD-ed character. Their choice? ok, I respect, and I'm staying away of their world... Especially since any Vic4 ported to Saha-16 bends perfectly. Furthermore, I have enough clothes, hairs, etc... and there are enough vendors creating items for both worlds.

All this is perfect for me, as it's a hobby. Of course I'm not a professional. And that's the reason why I will not invest time in Blender, and I will not invest a single cent in the professional programs that have been cited above. They are not for customers like me.

Someone explained that the younger generation are really tech savvy. Yes. And they are often in a hurry. Learning Blender? it comes a long time after they have been disappointed by Daz or Poser. and not everybody has the money to invest in iClone, and whatever. And even more after a "covid year" that has put a strong end to a world that was running faster and faster in a dead-end

Let me repeat it: I respect the needs of the professionals. Really. But we have inherited of a world in which the lifespan of the products sold is shorter and shorter. Something must be changed, in depth. Our economic model has lived, and is dying because of a really small virus.

I don't know where all this will push us all, but one thing is sure: if Poser dies, this will be the end of the 3D world for me, and for many people, from what I'm gessing thourgh what I can read on social medias. Oh... we are a really small market, and it doesn't matter?

Fine. So, no need to repeat what I read about Poser dying, since Daz has decided to follow a new, incompatible way, with their Genesis family, 10 years ago. And Poser is still there, dying.

Y-Phil, you're arguments make even less sense to me than Wolf's. Why are either of you here? Wolf's never really explained that to my satisfaction, but I figure he's here so long I guess he thinks he's got squatter's rights.

But you think Poser's dead or dying, and you're using a figure that for all intents and purposes is about 20 years old. Apparently, it can bend well, and that's all you need. I don't get it, but hey, you do you.

Wolf, you seem to think that everyone's all set to abandon Poser and move to either Iclone or Studio by next week. That's been your same argument for at least ten years now. Hasn't happened yet. I still think Poser's a good program. I laid out my thinking of what their biggest flaw seems to be. They develop a feature up to a point then it seems they lose interest in developing it any further. Look at Studio. Except for the figure, Poser had each of Studio's features first, but they stalled. Poser's done some minor tinkering around the edges, but Studio has literally blown past them with every feature. Yeah, I still think that if Poser would fix and IMPROVE it;s feature sets, they'd recapture some of users they lost to Studio. If they could figure out a way to make Genesis work natively in Poser so much the better, but frankly, that's a side point for me.

I laid out my thinking of what their biggest flaw seems to >be. They develop a feature up to a point then it seems >they lose interest in developing it any further. Look at >Studio. Except for the figure, Poser had each of Studio's >features first, but they stalled. Poser's done some minor >tinkering around the edges, but Studio has literally blown >past them with every feature. Yeah, I still think that if >Poser would fix and IMPROVE it;s feature sets, they'd >recapture some of users they lost to Studio. If they could >figure out a way to make Genesis work natively in Poser >so much the better,

I do not see why you believe any DS user, who left poser, would pay bondware to return to poser and abandon all of his IRay materials & other DS specific based content/ plugins .

I never predicted that everyone would leave poser for DS or Iclone.

You people seem to think there is some static number of users and the only way to "win" is to steal them from another application in a zero sum game.

That is not how market growth works you grow by gaining new users annually. This is where poser is way the behind competition even in its price range.

The Poser software does not have to "Die" completely to become irrelevant as long as some company is willing to keep it available on full life support, as Daz does with vestigial relics such as Bryce ,Carrara& Hexgon.

Poser shouldn't just be free - it should go fully open source. That won't guarantee anything will happen, but it would allow more developers to help get it back into shape if there's enough interest. Whether or not there would be enough interest, I can't say, but at this point, it wouldn't make things any worse, and could potentially make things much better for Poser's long-term survival.

You have to own every bit of the code to take an app open source.

@ Y-Phil

Actually Poser is not dying for the ones that started up a collection the past decades, allot have gathered huge collections throughout the years, these will keep it running. Fact is that since August 2019 being a content creator you will notice that there has been a decreasing interest for content of about 70 - 80 % Whilst Smith micro was in Possession of Poser there was a steady increase, slow but steady ! After the change it went down to 50% within end of 2019 not that the content is getting worse it even Improved but the Interest keeps on decreasing , It is for sure not that the users started to make there own stuff. Actually there should of been an increase.

As for the old users that have there collections well these will run there old Poser versions until not supported any longer and just use the content they gathered, not adding allot of new stuff to it. this will naturally result that Content creators will not continue to provide new content for Poser. But still the ones who have it will at least find some time to use the content they bought and never played with as of floods of content at the time.

Same thing for me. I Provide content for Poser, well not for a living , just because I need to do it my self if I want new stuff so I share these. But considering a creation I work at 1 week I might earn a 20 - 50 $ for it without a broker if there were a broker it would just be Half the other half would fall in there hands !

It was asked what features to cull from the free version of poser, here are some thoughts:

Figure dropdown: Drop the create full body morphs and morphs portion and copy morphs from feature, some of those were cut from poser 11 and only available in poser 11 pro. One reason I upgraded was to take advantage of those features, but not having those features still makes the program functional.

You could also add limitations to render sizes and resolution. Limit the types of light available, limit the free content. Limit the animations to a certain time. Things like that.

One reason I still use poser and will probably forever, even if it's dropped from the market (I still have tons of content to keep me going and I can create my own), is it's toon outline feature. Not the cartoon settings feature, but the toon outline you can have put in post render. I don't like photo-real rendering, I'm more graphic art style, and that toon outline is a godsend. One thing I think Poser should work on is more advanced toon/cell shading/edge lining features that work without having to plug in material nodes. (I'm not a programmer or know how all that stuff works, I just know what I'd love to see happen in poser).

As I mentioned before, this thread, to me, wasn't about software competition or preferences, it's about Poser and how it could help it's vendors and be a resource for people who want to get into 3d rendering on a low budget. To me, a free version would entice people to dabble in it and that would benefit the 3rd party vendors who make things for Poser.

Y-Phil posted at 11:25PM Sat, 24 April 2021 - #4417595

All this is perfect for me, as it's a hobby. Of course I'm not a professional. And that's the reason why I will not invest time in Blender, and I will not invest a single cent in the professional programs that have been cited above. They are not for customers like me.

Someone explained that the younger generation are really tech savvy. Yes. And they are often in a hurry. Learning Blender? it comes a long time after they have been disappointed by Daz or Poser. and not everybody has the money to invest in iClone, and whatever. And even more after a "covid year" that has put a strong end to a world that was running faster and faster in a dead-end

Regarding Blender... I don't feel like I have time for that either, but I'm already unintentionally learning Blender. Not because I'm using Blender, but because that's the Superfly material system....

Seems to me that any maker worth his pay can put together a product in three weeks for use in Poser. That is the length of time you get a free trial for the software. If the product is good enough for the masses of the marketplace, it will pay you enough to purchase the software itself. If the number of users is as low as you are saying, it may take some time. Can't make $200 with your product? Don't make anymore. Move on. Poser isn't for you. Find a different software to market to. If a content maker can make money with a free version of Poser then why buy? For non content creators 3 weeks should be enough time for a user to try before you buy.

After all, you folk seem to think Poser users aren't looking for more than, or are capable of; anything other than load, pose, render. If Poser users are only going to buy your products and then load pose and render; the only reason for Poser to exist is to sell your assets. That sounds a lot like DS to me. Precious iRay materials? Give it a break. The same maps used in iRay work in Superfly, Unity, Unreal; and Cycles. I texture in Substance and maps created are usable without change in my render engine of choice. That is the whole point of PBR.

Let me grab a refill of my coffee while the poor hard done by vendors complain that they are not making enough scratch with their software of choice and how they need every other software on the market to fall into their way of working/thinking/paying vendors.

@ parkdalegardener

Well that is the issue with all this marketing process, sure if you do not make your 200$ it is not worth making any assets, but lets say you make it to cover the costs of Poser with one asset that you made in the trial time you actually would have to make 400$ as Rendo and others will take half of the gain for brokarage, so Rendo already earned with your Trial creation 200$ and now you are all happy and give the other 200$ to rendo to have poser so you can create more that you sell and each time they will earn half of your gain. so what Davo might of saying was to ask for a little fairness from the store. The Creator Artist he earns only for each thing he made but the brokering earns cumulative for each and every creation without having to spend weeks month of hard work, just for a little hosting space !

Where do you think all the Cash comes from to Buy Poser rights ? where do you think al the Free stuff comes from that comes along with Poser .. Hey almost 1000$ worth freebies, it comes from generous people "Not Renderosity" ! But comes the Day that a vendor would ask for anything they will get the big boot into there Ass.

The "free" stuff that comes with Poser has no relevance on weather or not a vendor is capable of producing an asset that would make enough money to justify purchase of the software. Nor do brokerage fees in and of themselves. Any asset marketed through this site, irregardless of it's intended use; is subject to brokerage fees. Rendo is not the only store selling Poser assets; though I will admit to it's being the largest.

Use this same argument that you are pushing here with Reallusion and their 30 day watermarked limited use flagship, iClone. What about the limited use and purposely mangled output that you get with e-on's 30 day trial of Vue and Plant Factory. Pixologic offers a trial of zBrush with no restrictions on output; but wait; you need to be constantly connected to their site to use it. Pretty much any product with a free trial version carries restrictions.

Poser is free to trial with no restriction of features or output and does not need to be constantly attached to the internet during the trial use. You seem to feel that a vendor can only manufacture a single product of usefulness in the trial period. That limitation is the vendors own as is the statement that Rendo is the only place a person can move a Poser asset. You only give up a cut of your margin to the store here if you only sell your assets here. DAZ isn't getting a cut of Studio assets sold here nor Reallusion of iClone assets. You pay brokerage fees where you use a broker. The amount paid is between the vendor and the broker. Get good enough and the broker comes to you.

The entire premise of this thread is that the average $200 cost of Poser 12 is what is keeping vendors from developing for poser.

I disagree that $200 dollars is the reason.

I think the reason is the lack of a cloth rigging system that is as easy as the one in Daz studio or the $200 Reallusion CC3Pipeline.

I think the reason is the that people look at their options and they see a choice either support 15+ year old Daz Figures(V4/M4) or LF&LH which many people have not embraced having chosen to cling to those tired 15+ year old Daz figures instead.

After all, you folk seem to think Poser users aren't

looking for more than, or are capable of; anything other

than load, pose, render.

Yet whenever there is a discussion about how the poser feature sets have fallen behind Daz studio or Iclone. in competitive areas such as Character animation etc, there is an immediate chorus of people who assert that they are just hobby makers who Click/load/render still art and do not need "all of that fancy stuff" in poser.

As an animator (and former Renderosity merchant) who is planning to start vending animation products again, I see very little potential for ROI in making bespoke motion files for any poser native figure when the users say they dont care about "fancy stuff" like Character animation

I Will be supporting the G8 female with native Daz studio formats but plan to sell them here in the RMP as I refuse to partner with Daz inc. for business reasons

If Poser users are only going to >buy your products and

then load pose and render; the >only reason for Poser to

exist is to sell your assets. That >sounds a lot like DS to

me.

Well looking at it from a non tribal, unemotional business perspective that is the only reason any brokerage exists ..yes??

Do you really believe that every person who sells at app at the Apple store is a "true believer" in Apple inc and all that they do/stand for or uses a Mac at home & work for everything.

For many it's $$just business$$ welcome to Capitalism

Wolf all I am saying is pretty much what you are putting forth without any "tribalism" involved. I did not, nor will I; wax on about how one system is better than another unlike yourself. I simply made the point that the cost of the software for the vendor should not be the deciding factor as to weather or not they make product. That is in response to the thread header question.

There was no discussion of characters or app features by me. I strictly stuck to the premise of the thread as to weather or not a free version of the software would be a benefit for vendors. My statement is that if you are not capable of making a lousy $200 as a vendor using a particular piece of software then you might want to try another software to make money with. I never spouted the benefits or faults of any software, other than the Poser demo is unrestricted; unlike almost every other piece of software on the market. iClone included Wolf.

I don't get the "true believer" stuff and couldn't care less who you will make product for in some foggy future. Read what is posted. I understand Capitalism very well. I too was a vendor here and elsewhere. I moved up the foodchain and no longer need to make my income from hobbyists. I get paid quite well to produce assets and totally understand brokerage fees. As I've stated above; If you are good enough the brokerage (studio, production house, ect.) will come to you same as they came to me. Isn't that why you post your website and IMDB listing in your sig.? True believer hoping to be discovered.

If this is a DAZ/Bondware bashing thread I am not interested in discussion. That goes for Apple vs PC or any other my way is better than your way type of discussion. I am fully capable of sticking to the subject without the Us vs Them diatripe that many folk in this thread consider civil debate. I stick to the subject. Try to do the same in the future if you wish to elict a response from me. I won't be drawn into foolishness.

As the OP, I wish to apologize for not clarifying my intention for a free version of Poser. My intention was not to have a free software version so that people could become vendors and make money. My intention is that a free version will be a benefit for vendors because it could potentially increase the number of new users to the 3d poser market. My belief is that the reason DS has a much larger market share is because it has a free version of it's software and that is a benefit to their 3rd party vendors. My hope is for that same advantage to become available for poser vendors as well. Again, sorry for the confusion. This all all been some very interesting discussion.

I understand. I think there are way more reasons as to why DAZ assets have a larger market share than Bondware has, than just a free giveaway. Expecting a company that just shelled out for a property, that only earns by offering for sale copies; to offer it free is highly unlikely and extremely bad business practice.

Wolf all I am saying is pretty much what you are putting

forth without any "tribalism" involved. I did not, nor will

I; wax on about how one system is better than another

unlike yourself.

We agree that $200 is NOT a burdensome cost of entry for a potential poser vendor or even a hobbiest end user IMHO.

However if we tell Davo that making poser free is not a

solution for getting more vendor support we have to have an intellectually honest conversation about why even a free version of poser is not an attractive proposition for a content creator.

There was no discussion of characters or app features by

me. I strictly stuck to the premise of the thread as to

weather or not a free version of the software would be a

benefit for vendors. ....... I never spouted the benefits or

faults of any software.

Of course you did not like many here, the subject of posers current standing,viability ( in this market space) can only be discussed in a vacuum where any comparison its next nearest competitors is taboo for some odd reason.

As I've stated above; If you are good enough the

brokerage (studio, production house, ect.) will come to

you same as they came to me. Isn't that why you post

your website and IMDB listing in your sig.? True believer

hoping to be discovered.

Wrong ..not a" true believer" in anything except my Religon where "true belief" belongs.

Oh and Retired &occasionally freelance to keep the old brain active certainly not looking to be "discovered" by any"industry"... LOL!!

For software I am a cold hearted pragmatist. used Maxon C4D for over Decade, even made a feature

length marvel Fan film with C4D/Poser/Daz studio and Iclone.

Dispassionately Dumped C4D when maxon Went Subscription(or punitively priced perpetual),

when Blender actually became usable (2.8& beyond) Now primarily a Blender user with Reallusion as the humanoid figure resource.

davo posted at 1:31PM Mon, 26 April 2021 - #4417729

As the OP, I wish to apologize for not clarifying my intention for a free version of Poser. My intention was not to have a free software version so that people could become vendors and make money. My intention is that a free version will be a benefit for vendors because it could potentially increase the number of new users to the 3d poser market. My belief is that the reason DS has a much larger market share is because it has a free version of it's software and that is a benefit to their 3rd party vendors. My hope is for that same advantage to become available for poser vendors as well. Again, sorry for the confusion. This all all been some very interesting discussion.

Actually, I agree with your premise to a point. DS is free and a good deal of users moved over for that specific reason. However, for me, at least, DS has always been free. I've never paid a dime for it, even when it was $400 dollars. Thing is, I've never had a use for DS and up until Genesis, it was basically a copy of what Poser could already do. So why wasn't Poser in trouble back then? Answer, it wasn't until DAZ figures stopped working natively in Poser (i.e. Genesis), that Studio had any actual inroads. Even with Genesis, DAZ had to sabotage Poser once again by dropping support for the DSON Importer.

So why wasn't Poser in trouble back then? Answer, it >wasn't until DAZ figures stopped working natively in >Poser (i.e. Genesis), >that Studio had any actual inroads. >Even with Genesis, DAZ had to sabotage Poser once >again by dropping support for the >DSON Importer.

Daz chose to make Genesis 3 more "exotic" in its basic structure and removed the ability to export it as a poser CR2. IMHO opinion Genesis 2 was the best version of Genesis with the highest level of compatibility with external apps via basic FBX export.. but its all water under the bridge now.

"Sabotage" is bit melodramatic ..yes??

Did bondware "Sabotage" Maxon C4D or Autodesk Max when they dropped the "Poser fusion" plugins??

Genesis 8.1 does not work with the Genesis conversion tool in Reallusion Character creator 3 and Reallusion (wisely) does not appear to be in any real hurry to further chaser after the golden unicorn with an update ..nor are they crying "sabotage".

They spent their resources on a new realistic hair /beard system and connecting CC3 figures to the realtime RTX based "Omniverse" System being heavily pushed by the GPU behemoth NVIDIA.

The obvious lesson is to NEVER let someone else's external tech become the single point of failure for your business model.

which is why Daz studio was created at all during that highly unstable E-frontier era of poser

And why Reallusion Created Character creator 1 after genesis 3 Broke the genesis Auto recognition template in Iclone 3Dxchange.

wolf359 posted at 2:26PM Mon, 26 April 2021 - #4417737

So why wasn't Poser in trouble back then? Answer, it >wasn't until DAZ figures stopped working natively in >Poser (i.e. Genesis), >that Studio had any actual inroads. >Even with Genesis, DAZ had to sabotage Poser once >again by dropping support for the >DSON Importer.

Daz chose to make Genesis 3 more "exotic" in its basic structure and removed the ability to export it as a poser CR2. IMHO opinion Genesis 2 was the best version of Genesis with the highest level of compatibility with external apps via basic FBX export.. but its all water under the bridge now.

"Sabotage" is bit melodramatic ..yes??

No, I don't think so.

Did bondware "Sabotage" Maxon C4D or Autodesk Max when they dropped the "Poser fusion" plugins??

Could be. I don't know their reasons. Truth, I don't know DAZ's reasons either, but I rather doubt "market forces" was behind it.

The obvious lesson is to NEVER let someone else's external tech become the single point of failure for your business model.

On this we agree.

parkdalegardener posted at 2:16PM Mon, 26 April 2021 - #4417732

I understand. I think there are way more reasons as to why DAZ assets have a larger market share than Bondware has, than just a free giveaway. Expecting a company that just shelled out for a property, that only earns by offering for sale copies; to offer it free is highly unlikely and extremely bad business practice.

I don't think it's true that Renderosity only earns money off Poser by selling copies, since they also sell content. But it's a good point that they just spent the money and will need to recoup that. A free version of Poser might make sense at some point, and I think it would be worth looking at, but it probably doesn't make sense right away.

There was also a suggestion earlier to make Poser 11 free. I don't think that would be a good idea either, because with the changes in Superfly and Python, the upgrade from 11 to 12 may be a little rough. You want new users to start in 12 right away so they never experience that transition at all.

ChromeStar posted at 4:17PM Mon, 26 April 2021 - #4417742

parkdalegardener posted at 2:16PM Mon, 26 April 2021 - #4417732

I understand. I think there are way more reasons as to why DAZ assets have a larger market share than Bondware has, than just a free giveaway. Expecting a company that just shelled out for a property, that only earns by offering for sale copies; to offer it free is highly unlikely and extremely bad business practice.

I don't think it's true that Renderosity only earns money off Poser by selling copies, since they also sell content. But it's a good point that they just spent the money and will need to recoup that. A free version of Poser might make sense at some point, and I think it would be worth looking at, but it probably doesn't make sense right away.

There was also a suggestion earlier to make Poser 11 free. I don't think that would be a good idea either, because with the changes in Superfly and Python, the upgrade from 11 to 12 may be a little rough. You want new users to start in 12 right away so they never experience that transition at all.

I think there is a lack of distinction between Bondware and Renderosity that is being missed here. Bondware is a software developer similar to Smith Micro in some respects. Renderosity is a brokerage that takes a cut of asset transactions. There is a difference here that some seem to not understand. I guess the point is moot. Carry on one and all.

Would be a good thing having Poser for free !! Would give the opportunities to make adapted poser releases and models, also being able to check the backward compatibility of models.

Summoner-Creations posted at 7:07PM Mon, 26 April 2021 - #4417754

Would be a good thing having Poser for free !! Would give the opportunities to make adapted poser releases and models, also being able to check the backward compatibility of models.

You should be able to do that now. I have Poser dating back to Poser 6. I bought 2 and 4 and while I still have some content from Poser 4, Poser 2 is gone. I kept the discs for Poser 4, but I got sick a couple of times and my relatives apparently didn't think I was going to make it.

parkdalegardener posted at 8:49PM Mon, 26 April 2021 - #4417750

I think there is a lack of distinction between Bondware and Renderosity that is being missed here. Bondware is a software developer similar to Smith Micro in some respects. Renderosity is a brokerage that takes a cut of asset transactions. There is a difference here that some seem to not understand. I guess the point is moot. Carry on one and all.

Bondware owns Renderosity. So I don't know that the distinction is important in terms of their strategic planning?

Are we sure Smith Micro did not pay Bondware to take Poser off their hands?!!! LOL

Speaking of Smith Micro, they put that kill switch into the program, but I wonder if either Smith Micro or Bondware has ever considered the implications of keeping it in? I mentioned earlier that I have Poser dating back to version 6, maybe 4 if I can find it, and all of them still work, except version 11 which has the kill switch. Now, actually, 11 does still work for me but that's only because I did switch over to the Bondware version. But since Summoner mentioned backward compatibility, what's the point in having backward compatibility if the program will eventually die and stop working over time anyway?

Actually simple, Most people that had Poser 11.1 from smith micro and I mean over 50% of the users might of just reactivated Poser 11.1 after the forced shutdown of there permanent licenses. People do not just let someone take away what they been paying for. Also mainly because Version 11.2 already shows a Downgrade of the Programm, due the version number change most Pyton addons Purchased do not work any longer in Version 11.2

People are not plain stupid so Majority just used a Offline activation on Poser 11.1 to maintain what they Payed for ( Actually just a simple Google search ) I guess this prevented a collective sue of expropriation against Bondware and Smith Micro

Allot others from whom I have contact, even that they hated Daz Studio, started using it and now buy exclusive DS Products as there older Poser products also work in Daz Studio. the rather smaller Part took the Downgrade option of 11.2

But lets stay Optimistic , as I still create exclusive Poser products, so that poser might grow a little again over the next years, else I will just end up making stuff for my self as no one else will have interests in these antiques :)

From my part I worked in Poser for almost 2 decades, meanwhile developed improved rigging systems, bridges with 3D creation programs and I continue finding solutions for figure creations. All this for Poser ! the actual situation is sure not very motivating and still Poser still has some outstanding features that others do not have, it would be a pity to lose these. To make you understand my poser setup works sort of like a Nexus-mod used in Oblivion at the time.

Many friends jumped to Daz Studio after the change to Poser 11.2 and would I of found a solution to integrate my work into DS I would also of jumped, but I have not found the code jet. Often I try, getting very close but then BUM again and all explodes. What I am trying to say is, is that the way things are handled with Poser just are going the wrong way at the moment.

Sure they will be forced to change there marketing strategies one day or another, no matter if there is a thread asking for solution, or asking them giving you a little hand. All is just a matter of Time :)