Hi, I have only been a member here for a couple of weeks, but I've been a Poser4 user since its release. I've spent most of my time here lurking and reading past Poser Forum posts. I'll probably get flamed for this but I would like to express my amazement at the attitude of this community towards Curious Labs and its people. I have never seen such acquiescence in a group of people who, by all rights, should be mad as hell for the way CL has treated them. I AM mad as hell because Poser 4 users have been pretty much ignored by CL since the last patch (which didn't fix much). Oh sure CL people pop in here once in a while and post. They attend conferences and parties and are real nice people, no doubt. But as a business, they ignore their customers' needs. Why haven't they fixed the problems in Poser4 over the years? Glaring and serious problems that even the $200 Pro Pack didn't fix? We've been put off for years with varying excuses, and the one that seemed to work best was the most recent. The good ol' "We can't fix it because we're putting all our efforts into Poser 5." How long have they been using that one? And it wasn't even true when they first started using it. How do I know? That bomb Avatar Lab. If they were putting all efforts into P5, where did Avatar Lab come from? And that program itself was a slap in the face to Poser users. Who the hell needed Avatar Lab? Who even knew what an 'Avatar' is? How many of you bought it (don't fib)? Three? Four? Okay, CL was trying to expand, that's good. But a niche product (A Lab) designed for another niche product (atmosphere) designed for a niche service (web sites that use it) designed for another niche service (the internet). Sheese! I'm on the web every day and have not seen one avatar anywhere. I and most everyone here would easily have paid the price of Avatar Lab for a Poser 4.5 upgrade that fixed just SOME of these problems: 1) multiplying magnets 2) the magnets themselves (awful to work with) 2) jumping cameras 3) memory leaks and computer lock ups 4) terrible texture handling 5) crosstalk 6) horrible, antiquated "library" (file) system 8) impossible-to-read dial lables 9) mysterious, unmoveable "window-in-the-upper-left-corner" And those are just off the top of my head. And I don't do animations, there's probably a few in that area, too. You know, I wouldn't be nearly so steamed at CL if they would have just been honest and forthcoming from the beginning. Instead, for years, we got this or something similar: Me: "Can you fix the file system? It shouldn't be that difficult." CL: "Sorry, we're working on Poser 5. Me: "OOOh, will it be fixed in P5?" CL: "Sorry, can't talk about P5." Me: "Well, what features will it have? CL: "Sorry, can't talk about it." Me: "Approximately when will it be out." CL: "Can't tell you that." Me: "About how much will it cost?" CL: "Can't say." Me: "You can't say ANYTHING? Why?" CL: "Competition." Me: "But you DON'T HAVE ANY!" CL: "Oh, yeah. But I still can't tell you." Me: "But you're the president of the company. You really mean you WON'T tell me." CL: And now they finally announce P5 and some of its features. They've doubled the full price and STILL haven't told us the upgrade price. They've added features that many will never use (although I like the new features), but haven't mentioned if they fixed the old problems. Multi-processor support, which should have been in the ProPak, is not mentioned. Ooh, but there's strand-based hair! Was that high on the Poser 5 wish list? I might have missed it but I didn't see one mention of it reading the past posts. Material Editor???? How many asked for that? Like I said, I'll enjoy these features (as long as the old bugs are fixed), but how many Poser hobbiests will? Were these features really geared for the general populace of Poser users? Or is CL trying to leave them behind? My final point: What truly amazes me is that this community not only acquiesces to this treatment, but many here SUPPORT it. They actually adopt and agree with CL's excuses. I believe this attitude helps make Steve Cooper comfortable with the way he's done business. But in truth, if he did have competition, he'd be OUT of business. I and many others here would have dropped Poser like a hot rock if there was a viable alternative. Don't believe me? Look what happened to Word Perfect Corp. when they began this same thing. And they were huge compared to CL. We are CL's custmers, we've given them our money. We deserve a product that works, not excuses and delays. Would you put up with this treatment for any other product you've purchased? Yet, when Mr Cooper shows up here, many of you rush to kiss his butt instead of demanding fair treatment. I guess I understand, though. If you demanded straight answers and fair treatment, he may not show up at any more parties. Flame on. I'm going back to lurking. Thanks for listening.

"I AM mad as hell because Poser 4 users have been pretty much ignored by CL since the last patch" Probably because they are working like slaves to create Poser 5. "How long have they been using that one?" Well, have you seen the pictures of Poser 5?! "1) multiplying magnets" I don't use magnets. "2) the magnets themselves (awful to work with)" Use morphs instead then. "2) jumping cameras" Not a big problem for me. "3) memory leaks and computer lock ups" Not a big problem for me. Maybe you need a more powerful computer here. "4) terrible texture handling" Poser's been pretty good here, I think. "5) crosstalk" Honestly, I have no idea what this is. Apparently its a problem, because I've seen all kinds of fixes for it, but it's not hampering me any. "6) horrible, antiquated "library" (file) system" Ding ding ding ding. Good point here! "8) impossible-to-read dial lables" Change your background, however, I hate those yellow ones in the PPP. "9) mysterious, unmoveable "window-in-the-upper-left-corner" I don't have Pro pack, I guess this is in that version? And those are just off the top of my head. And I don't do animations, there's probably a few in that area, too. "STILL haven't told us the upgrade price." Yeah, I would like to know that too. Hurry CL! =0) "added features that many will never use" Like what? Collision detection? I'll use that. Strand based hair?! Oh yeah. 3D modelling from a photo? Sure, I'll use that. I just WANT TO KNOW HOW IT WORKS WITH MIKE, Vicky and Steph! =-) "Ooh, but there's strand-based hair! Was that high on the Poser 5 wish list?" Uhh, yeeeah. "I might have missed it but I didn't see one mention of it reading the past posts. Material Editor???? How many asked for that?" Uh, I'll take it! "rush to kiss his butt instead of demanding fair treatment." Well, as an artist, let me say that Poser has enabled me to do things NO OTHER PROGRAM WOULD LET ME DO. This program is Unique, and that's why CL has no competition. One thing that really pushed Poser 4 into the next gen was Mike and Vicky. They are the after burners of Poser, but the program itself is still AFFORDABLE by my standards (anything $300 and DOWN) - now, this new price is a little high for me, but the upgrade price, I'm hoping, will fall around $200 and down. With my defense of CL said, you're not alone in your disappointment. I've seen others here express similar feelings - I think Poser 5 will silence the critics though. Ben

"Would you put up with this treatment for any other product you've purchased?" Windows springs to mind here, M$ & Bill Gates have been screwing people with dodgy software for a long time & still get away with it even now. The simple fact is CL don't have any competition so they can take their time and hopefully get it right with poser5. Yes I agree it would be nice if they fixed poser4 but I don't think the Bosses in Germany would sanction or pay for it. Rob

To some degree I agree with many of your points. Many bugs WERE fixed when CL took over P4, but there are just as many remaining. There are also some really bad things still in it, the library system and dials as you mentioned, and other such things. And while I appreciate their efforts in making the PP and trying to appeal to a larger audience with the program by allowing it to interface, to some degree, with other programs, I agree that other changes could have been made. However, I'm guessing the reason most of us, myself included, are so eagerly anticipating P5 is because we've simply given up on P4 being fixed. While I rarely have problems with it, aside from stupid interface things (again, the library, dials, boring old way of applying textures (yes, I use MAT files and make my own, but you have to start somewhere), somewhat clunky lights, annoying magnets (some people love these, I'm STILL trying to figure them out after a couple years), many other people do have problems with it. Whether it locks up, gives them corrupted renders, etc, they do have problems, but I'm willing to bet there's problems with the OS somewhere as well (I've been using computers since I was 5, and I know quite well how Windows works (I won't even begin to say I know what the Mac users are experiencing), so I know when it's doing really stupid things it's probably Windows causing the problem, or a bad driver/hardware, and not necessarily the program). So, what does all of this (and my asides) have to do with drooling for P5 now? Well, I at least got sick of things not being fixed and am being optomistic about P5. I know P4 isn't going to be patched again, or at least if it is, it'll get no new/updated features. They spent their time on AL (I've not seen an avatar as well, and I've been on this internet thing since 1991 or so), and well, I think it was just TOO niche. Now they're spending time on P5 (and have been as well), and they essentially left very little time for P4 to be fixed, or the PP. Sure, there's service releases for the PP, but those mostly address problems with PP itself, so that means the last patch, for just regular Poser stuff, was years ago. So yes, I'm looking forward to P5, raised price or not. It may just mean the difference between getting it when it's released or waiting a few more months, especially since money is tight right now, but I've been setting aside what little I can. So, I sort of agree, but I think maybe you doubt the power of cynicism with respect to an antiquated program, and blind hope toward one that hasn't been released yet.

Some of the points you mention do have a point. I would like to have a fix for crosstalk too, along with a better library system. But I must say i like the software very much and i understand that Courious Labs makes no money with updates. I do not know how much money the pro pack brought in, but I understand that they need to bring out a new product soon, to pay the bills and make some shareholder value. That is the only reason I can imagine why they don't fix the old bugs. Most of the money earned with Poser 4 was not earned by Courious Labs so they probably have to finish Poser 5. I will see how much Poser 5 will cost when it is released. I surely will not be the first to order, since the product will have bugs to start with, since it's overloaded with new features. I hope they will manage to fix them soon. The price mentioned here in the forum was pretty low if you get hairs, physics and working cloth simulation. But we will see. The price will be higher, but the features will justify it. They target a more professional market as well as the actual community. They say that the renderer will be compatible to Pixars Renderman, which is unimportant for the community but makes it easier to integrate Poser models in current movie projecs. The community would be happy with a working PovRay-Interface or a build-in Raytracer. They need the features to find more customers. Poser is still "Power without the price", if I may quote Jack Tramiel. And it will continue to bring a good part of Maya's features for a fraction of the price. Let us hope that it will not be to a fraction of the stability too.

haven't we all lived with the bugs in poser4 for years? we've all complained about them too, it's quite obvious they won't be fixed before the release of poser5 if ever. It would be easy to blame Metacreations for all the problems but don't forget a lot of them helped to create CL & are still there working away on poser5. From the little I've seen of Poser5 it's the program they wanted to make, if they managed to fit in some of the things we asked for then even better for them. Don't forget too that Poser4 was written for Windows95 on pc which wasn't exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer compared to the OS that are round now. Rob

To be fair to the community, a lot of people on this forum have been critical of CL's new pricing policy.

You are, however, correct that a lot of people have lost some credibility by believing that the non-disclosure agreement they signed (in blood?) also obliged them to spring to CLs defence at the slightest imagined criticism. If CL feels that there policies need to be justified, I am sure that they are quite capable of doing it themselves.

However, at the end of the day, the future of Poser does depend on CL's own financial welfare, and the company is, in fact still run by Poser's original creators, so a little faith is to be expected.

I think a lot of the critics (myself included) have really been questioning whether CL's marketing strategy has been wise, or whether they (and the community) may, in a few years time, come to regret it. If they sell less that half of the number of boxes at $549 than they would have at $300, then it will have been the wrong decision.

Now that the noise has died down a bit, I must say that my predicition is that the P4 upgrade was intended to be about $300 and the ProPack upgrade about $150.

Why? Simple economics. These are approximately the differences between those product prices and the full P5 price. If the upgrades were much less, new users would be able to grab a copy of P4 at the current value, then upgrade immediately, making a mockery of the MRP for P5. I am not, in fact aware of any software upgrade that has been set at a price less that the difference between the versions.

If CL decide now (as a result of the debate in the community?) that they cannot justify these prices, then they will either put P5 on special offer for its initial release, or effectively lose a portion of their initial sales to "upgrade jumpers". Either way they won't have much room to maneuver as their sales targets are probably already set for this level of income, and anyway, unless they want to come under fire from recent purchasers of ProPack, the difference between the two upgrades has to be at least $150, which pretty much rules out a P4 upgrade less than $250.

Bill

I am currently shopping for parts for a new computer. (I dont need everything, but I need some key components) My 128Mb P-233 (yes Pentium, not II, III, or IV) just wont cut it anymore. One of the driving factors is Photoshop 7 and the announcement of Poser 5. Poser is growing up, so must we. I can imagine there was not quite a little debate on what to with Poser when it was saved and even more debate on what to do, move forward(Version 5) or work on a stop gap that would be less profitable and be absorbed in the next version (a 4.5 patch say). Avatar Lab (Ok. I'll give you that one.) ProPack was a good move. (I could not afford it at the time, see above comments on still working on a P-233 ;) ) Poser 3 does not have the issues you complain about, would you go backwards? (I did not think so). Buck up trooper and let's see what the future holds.

Ok, quick response: Poser 4 and Pro Pack are buggy. They, however, are less buggy that the operating systems they run on. so, if you weigh the relative value of Poser 4 with the faults, it still comes out being a MUCH better value than anything else on the market. In fact, most Americans, among other nations, are used to low quality, so this medium to high quality product is much easier to deal with than other things that really effect our lives, like the high cost of bandwidth or cable programming (50 bucks for basic calbe, blow me).

I dont want to sound elitist but my only interest in poser at this point is its abilty to access and animate realistic humanoid models /animals/robots for rendering in Cinema4DXl or other high end programs I dont care about poser magnets, lighting or materials for that matter because i can replace them in the material manager of C4d with professional high end volumetric shaders. before rendering. I look at alot of 3D related web site and from what ive seen Nobody ,with the possible exception of movie studios like ILM etc., are animating 3D characters with the versatility and realism of the milenium models and certainly not with the ease offered by poser. as far as poser 5 is concerned I will use the hair and cloth and possibly the custom "face room." but that will all be as a prerequisite to importing into cinema 4DXl for rendering. this is because poser as good as it is in its niche, will never offer the abilty to create the kinds of expansive environments that i seek to create for my animated characters CL realizes this and thats we we are seeing export ability to vue and other programs.

Poser has been an unique and odd product ever since I used it (my first version was V2 and that was less than complete, least to say :-D). However, this product takes on the complex field of character posing and creation head-on in the 3D industry and is pioneering ( I actually like your comparision with WordPerfect because the resemblance in situation is striking) the interface and handling for this field. It excels in that, but it is far from a solution for all 3D activities and it probably will never be.
I share most of your frustrations but I must acknowledge that this is a very complex material to study. Also it typically creates heavy load for your computer so lockups and slowdowns are expectable (I did not say acceptable, but keep an open mind on the complex task people of CL have taken on them...). You will see this kind of problems on many 3D applications.
I actually think (and hope CL people see the positive reflection rather than threat) Poser needs competition. Expensive tools like 3DS Max should be sold at Poser-like prices, including Character Studio, so a true comparison can start. Competition is the best ground for sensible enrichment of the product.

Finally I highlight one of the comment you made because I think it needs serious reworking (and hope it gets a better treatment in P5): the library subsystem. That one really sucks! What I really want is a project-based approach so it is possible to group everything that makes a Poser project and save this.

I'm sure that most people who use poser intensively would agree with some of your points, but certainly not all. 1) multiplying magnets - I've never had that one 2) the magnets themselves (awful to work with) - probably the best Metacreations could do with the technology of that time. 2) jumping cameras - Never had that one. 3) memory leaks and computer lock ups - Partly the fault of poser for not having memory management, but partly windows too. 4) terrible texture handling - I tend to agree 5) crosstalk - see below 6) horrible, antiquated "library" (file) system - Yep! 8) impossible-to-read dial lables - Yep! 9) mysterious, unmoveable "window-in-the-upper-left-corner" - generally due to poser crashing and not maintaining the user's defaults - True again Crosstalk - This has been mentioned several times in this thread. I'd like to point out that crosstalk is nothing to do with either Metacreations or CL. It's an unfortunate by-product of advances made by the users themselves (specifically Charles 'Nerd' Taylor and Robert Whisenet), when they invented ERC. Crosstalk may be a pain, but don't blame CL for it. Post #7 - William - You're WAY off with a $300 estimate for an upgrade. Half that and you'll be nearer. How do I know? I read the posts. mac

I've been using Poser since The old pre-MetaCreations version 1. I recall calling Fractal Design (I think it was called) every few months about how soon "that computer mannequin program" was going to be finally released after I read about it in a computer magazine. They missed their first announced release date by over a year, as I recall. Ditto with Poser 2, Poser 3, & Poser 4. Through several company name-changes one thing remained constant - about a year's lag-time between the announced release and the actual first sale. Now Curious Labs has inherited the "mantle" of poser - their first product (that I heard of) was a free upgrade to V4.03. This was free to customers who had never even purchased a CL-branded product! To generate profit to keep afloat, they released a small selection of specialized niche products, but they had enough class to avoid going for the easy money of a commercial "upgrade" of cobbled-together fixes and buggy enhancements as a Poser 4.5 upgrade or whatever. Sure, we haven't been coddled along with a dribble of upgrades & fixes since 4.03, but we haven't had to pay CL for anything thru this period either. ProPak expands SOME of P4's capabilities, but it's never been marketed as a "Must-Have" for all Poser users. They've never made any attempt to charge any kind of licensing free to anyone who wanted to make Poser add-ons, characters, utilities, etc. They don't want anyone to use the word "Poser" in anyone else's actual product NAME, but that's mainly to protect their trademark. I don't blame them on being close-mouthed about the development of Poser 5, the pricing, or any other details of their business. It's their business. Literally. Members of this and other Poser online communities have demonstrated absolutely no restraint in subjecting every comment by or rumor about CL's progress or intentions to the most inane and laborious scrutiny, debate, mis-interpretation, rants, and interminable debates. Every time a CL employee has attempted to share any information with us, someone has managed to find a word, inflection, punctuation or just an omission regarding some pet wishlist item to pounce on. Most such attempts to share info have turned into such donnybrooks, that I'm surprised they ever post here at all. I like Poser 4. It has it's flaws, bugs, and peculiarities, but it's powerful and easy enough to use that I can do things I honestly never dreamed of doing even 5 years ago. Enough other people find it useful to create the most active and vocal online software communities this side of Microsoft. By the way, my biggest concern with P5 is a tremendous curiosity regarding the library subsystem as well - most of my biggest problems with Poser are caused by the current limitations there. ...Just my 2 cents worth - opposing views expected and encouraged... Cheers!

leather-guy Amen to all that!! mac

• You're WAY off with a $300 estimate for an upgrade. Half that and you'll be nearer. How do I know? I read the posts. *

So you reckon they'll be giving the ProPack upgrade away free then?

So far the posts are just speculative, and extermely optimistic, nobody has really done the math.

As I said, CL may yet decide to lower the upgrade price in light of the obvious reaction it would cause, but that is the level they've been postioning their product line at within the last 12 months, and they haven't given themselves much elbow room.

Bill

Great post WizardOfGauze. Crosstalk should have been fixed a long time ago and they still haven't let us know if it's fixed in 5. maclean, CL may not have caused the problem, but their customers want it fixed. I won't comment on price until they tell us what the upgrade price is.

Yup, you'll find some strong support here for CL. We remember the nasty and steadily worsening situation Steve's team was in at MetaCreations. How they supported Willow setting up the first Poser mailing list/community and gave us as much help as they could. Then the mass firing and long uncertainty while Poser was up for sale. Meanwhile Larry put the patch up at his personal site, so folks could get it. And as I recall, used his rights as original creator to put the brakes on at least one deal that would have dumped Poser into another unsupportive environment. Sure, we would have liked another patch, or an earlier P5, but we know what a struggle it's been. So, yes, I'd like to see the good guys win big - but most of all I'm hoping to get a damn wonderful Poser 5. And Poser 6 and...

Well said, Leather-guy:) Poser 4 may have its bugs, but what app doesn't? Keep in mind that P5 will be the first version where Curious Labs has really gotten to do what they wanted to it. In my opinion, P5 looks like a quantum leap over P4, and I don't think the price is bad at all, given what they're offering. If you don't agree, don't buy it. But I'm sure as hell going to snatch it up as soon as I can afford it. And yeah, it may take me a while, I'm sure as hell not "well-off", but I have no problem with paying a fair price for a great product, and P5 looks damned great to my eyes. I also think the folks at Curious Labs are pretty damn cool. They don't HAVE to post here at all, you know, especially since every friggin' word they say gets picked apart and analyzed like it came from the mouth of God himself. Get a life, people. It's just a damn piece of software. If you feel so strongly that Curious Labs are treating you so unfairly, then by all means take your money to the competition. Maxon just announced Cinema 4D 8, and it looks to be moving closer and closer to Poser in the character animation arena. Costs more, though, and still lacks Poser basics like conforming clothing, I believe. And then there's Messiah:Animate, which is supposedly similar to Poser, although I'm willing to bet that it lacks some of those basics we take for granted, too (does ANY other app do conforming clothing? Lightwave? 3DS Max?), and costs a hell of a lot more. Way too much for me to even care what it can do. It's far beyond my feeble budget. BTW, I've seen Kupa around a lot, and not just in Poser-oriented threads. He's very obviously not just here on business. He's far more of a member of this community than you might think. Moreso than the folks at most of the other companies, believe me. And to me, that says a lot about his character. So no flame here, just a suggestion that you give your hostility a rest and take a look at the big picture. We wouldn't be so eager to give them our money if they weren't providing something we want badly. I don't think anyone is going to be disappointed when they get their hands on P5. PS: "Material Editor???? How many asked for that?" Funny you should ask, since my biggest gripe about P4 is its absolutely pathetic material editor...

wizardofGauze, I have signed the NDA... the second time I saw the program in action... but if you believe that it makes my remarks less credible, you had better think again. It keeps me from talking about things which might hurt their business relationships. As a developer, I know how wide a net those can cover, and how fragile. No piece of paper will force me to lie, or say something which I don't believe to be true... and the absence of a signature will not loosen my tongue or reveal me to me less than trustworthy. That said, the work on AvatarLab and ProPack wasn't a derailment at all. Look at the screenshots. Those features coming in Poser 5 are features that we, the community, have wanted and have asked for. If you had spent time as an active member here, you could have made your wishes known, too. It is a trifle late to be complaining now, however, you do have the right and ability to complain until Poser 6 comes out. We'll be happily making images while you sit and fume. Does Poser 5 have everything I want? No. But that will give me something to anticipate in the next release. Carolly

I've had Poser since version 1 in 1996, and I've followed this situation as much as possible. I've been very impressed with kupa, and anyone from Curious Labs who's taken the time to post here, and talk to us. Kupa did a wonderful thing by showing a preview of Poser 5. This is Curious Lab's chance to show us a superb product, designed from scratch. CL has been doing the best they can with what they have. Someone has to pay the bills and wages to employees. CL needs to keep in business so we can continue to enjoy Poser. Now I just hope I can afford the upgrade price.

I was just talking to someone recently about the software we use and our "hobby." You know, it's sort of odd, because we don't notice it, but we are the people on the cutting edge, yet the newest and best is never good enough. If you really consider what was available yesterday, and what will be available tomorrow, you will undoubtedly be forced to realize that with the tools we use today on our average PCs, we are creating the animations that just 2 years ago were only considered by multi-million dollar studios. Just a thought... Paul

WOG - just my 0.2 ;o) Please put an IMHO in front of all that's said below. o The community's acquiescence to Poser/CL? The comm is the most dedicated AND most critical I've ever seen - that's what makes Poser great (probably why Kupa & co. takes the comm so seriously). o Ignored by CL? Make a search for "Kupa" and "Nosfiratu" - but we sometimes ignore that CL is a business. o Problems and bugs in Poser? Plenty of'em - all apps have them. And Pro Pack made figure setup a matter of hours instead of days, besides opening up Poser to 3DM and LW. I'd have paid twice the price just for the Setup Room. o Put off for years? Avatar labs? Everyone jumped on the internet/new economy fantasy bubble - why should CL be different? And no, I ain't seen an Avatar anywhere, either ;o) o Honest and forthcoming? Hey, M$ still claims that plug-and-play works! Seriously, it does, most of the time, we just tend to feel it that much more when it doesn't. Ditto with Poser's shortcomings - how many apps could enable the amount of art and artists we see in the galleries here? o Price strategy? You ever tried following, say, Caligari's changing price strategies (speaking as a long-time TS fan)? o Wish lists? Everybody and his brother has'em. CL asked for input, they never said they'd use it all (how could they - I could out-wish their programming man-hours in five minutes LOL) o Support CL? Nope - we support a great product. Most of us will never meet the CL gang personally. Most of us WILL remember that Kupa kept Poser alive between MetaCreations and CL, though. I'm VERY sure the original CL gang could've sold their skills quite profitably to other 3D app companies. o A product that works? It DOES, man - look at the galleries. It could work far, far better - and it will, if we continue to be supportive and critical. And no, I'm not a beta tester, just a highly satisfied, highly critical customer.

Attached Link: http://66.70.166.29/promo/poser5.mpg

First of all, I was surprised that CL even took to the time to patch Poser AT ALL. Many times when a product changes hands, that product stays as is until a next version is released. Look at all the other Metacreations properties that were bought....no patches, no updates, only next versions that are only now coming out.

It's standard, anyway, for software companies to hit a certain date and say no more updates, it's the next version or nothing. I pointed out a problem with Sonic Foundry Sound Forge to Sonic Foundry regarding Windows Media output that they didn't know existed and they said they would fix it in the next version. Doesn't help me until I upgrade, but that's just the fact of development.

Most of the bugs in Poser 4 really are "features". They are things that were badly thought out. The library structure is a good example. Probably it seemed like a good idea at the time, but whoever was working on it never imagined that anyone would collect hundreds of poses, MAT files, etc, that would bring the system to its knees. Many other features are also really just bad design (like the feeble undo support, the difficulty to duplicate props, and so many others) and not bugs. Irritating as these features are, I'm not sure that CL are obligated to fix them in the way that they might be with real programming errors.

First of all, let me thank all you CL flag-wavers for coming on and prooving me right :) And thanks to you who agreed with some or all of my points, I was suprised at that. Now, please let me clear up was has been misunderstood (or missed) from my original post. I never said Poser was a bad program; it's a great program, just clunky, buggy, and old. And I did say that Cooper, et al were very nice people and acknowledged that they come here and post. But that doesn't fix the bugs in Poser, does it? A lot of you liked to compare CL with Microsoft (or "any other software co"). No, Bill Gates doesn't pop in on Access or Windows forums (that I know of). But go to MS's site guess what you'll find tons of? PATCHES and FIXES for their software going back several iterations. You'll find that on "any other software company's" site, too. At least the ones that charge 500+ for their stuff. My Pshop 7 checks the web for updates EVERY TWO WEEKS. (I know what the flag wavers will come back with but it will be invalid, too. There's just no convincing them. And I didn't start the comparison, they did.) Another issue: My main beef isn't with P5. It's with the P4 bugs and the fact CL has left them there for years. So, Carolly, your argument about me being new here doesn't wash. I've been a P4 user at least as long as you. And I know you signed the NDA, I've read that fact about a dozen times. Yes, you know things we don't and Cooper came to your house. That's good. Another issue: Honesty. In a later thread, operaguy posted a msg he'd gotten from a CL employee stating P5 won't have multi-processor support. Brilliant. That probably means no network rendering, either. Oh, but we have strand-based hair!! The employee went on to say that "the underlying features are the same for Poser 4 and 5." Weren't we told Poser 5 was being "completely rewritten from scratch?" Wasn't that one of their excuses for taking so long and not fixing P4? I believe it was. Somebody fibbed. Well, that's not everything, but I'm done for now. Thanks for listening.

Oh, I forgot another point I wanted to make... There is STILL no upgrade price published. Can't use siggraph as an excuse any more, it's been over for days. Also, "End Of Summer" is not a release date. Don't be suprised if it's in December or even NEXT summer. I seriously hope I'm wrong, but I won't be suprised if I'm right.

Y'know, I value Poser more than the ability to walk. (Who needs to be able to walk when you have Poser? Eh? Eh?) Even so, those dangblanged magnets really toast my short.... I hope somebody fixes them, some day.

Wizard, I'm guessing you're a glass is half empty kind of guy.

5's coming soon. Save your energy. :)

Basically, what IS your problem? Are you pissed that other people are happy and excited about something for a change? (I didn't notice you speaking up when they were tearing at each other's throats at various times over the last few years.) Your remarks seem aimed at deflating any bubble of enthusiasm, and while grasping that agenda is your right, you do remind me of the kid who scrawled in other kid's coloring books just to trash them: we stopped sharing crayons with her. Oh, the question above was rhetorical. I'm not interested in wasting time on someone who just wants to be disagreeable. Carolly

"There is STILL no upgrade price published. Can't use SIGGRAPH as an excuse any more, it's been over for days." It's Monday. Kupa just got back last night. He posted in another thread: "...and now that I'm back, maybe we can finally get the website updated so all those great questions can finally get answered. " A day or two to prepare a formal Website update based on SIGGRAPH questions & concerns is certainly reasonable. "The employee went on to say that "the underlying features are the same for Poser 4 and 5." Weren't we told Poser 5 was being "completely rewritten from scratch?" Wasn't that one of their excuses for taking so long and not fixing P4? I believe it was. Somebody fibbed." No inconsistency there. A program can be completely re-written without incorporating hardware-Dependant features. I can't think of any reason why they would want to, anyway. I can imagine the howl from the "bitch & quibble" contingency if some features needed a certain Video Chipset or CPU to work correctly. "I never said Poser was a bad program; it's a great program, just clunky, buggy, and old." Agreed. Poser 4 out of the box works pretty well. I imagine it was about 80% of what MetaCreations envisioned. Better than most software on release, but some problems. With the 4.03 upgrade it probably jumped to about 88-90% of MetaCreations' vision. Then the poser community jumped on the platform, and some really creative folk cranked it up to a new level, making unanticipated demands on it - add Millennium Characters, ultra-Hi-res textures, meshes, etc. and soon the new demands taxed even the 4.03 patched program from 90% of MC's vision to 70% or even 65% of the revised users requirements. This is hardly a failure in the program. Poser 4.03, using P4 characters, props, textures is still a good 90% solid program. Curious Labs has their own vision of what they want their Poser to be. They based it on months of Customer feedback (Remember the Wishlist link that used to be at the top of every Poser Forum page?), and their own vision of where they want their program to go. It's their program, now. They deserve to follow their own "muse", and if they wanted to make that their priority over cobbling unsatisfactory patches together for MetaCreations creaky old engine, then that's very literally Their Business. They're not a huge corporation with dozens of cash cows raking in funds to support coders fixing problems that only exist because they'd rather rush a product into the stores and make the customer worry about downloading hundreds of perfunctory and imperceptible "fixes" just to maintain the facade they're customer-driven. I appreciate Cl taking the time to develop P5 until it's the product they want to sell. ....Just another 2 cents worth, opposing views expected and encouraged...... Cheers!

Carolly, I'm sorry about the NDA crack, it was uncalled for. Actually, I never trashed another kids coloring book either. I guess my real problem with CL, and you guys is twofold: Point 1. I firmly believe CL could have easily fixed the problems with P4 but purposely held back. Why? Well, if the hobbiests had a well-working, up-to-date Poser 4, they might not buy Poser 5. (This isn't about me, I'd buy P5--if it works--for the new features because I'll use them.) Point 2. I also firmly believe that the acquiescent attitude here convinced CL that they could get away with Point 1. Kendra, no, I'm usually very optimistic on matters. But three years of P4 with no attempt from its owners to try to fix it, makes me skeptical of anything CL does. Leather-guy and everyone else gushing over the on-coming Poser 5: You've all waved the flag of "give them time, let them make it right" for a year now and I'm right with you on that. I hope it's bug-free (major bugs anyway) and works on 98% of the machines out there. But given CL's track record with Poser 4, do you really trust them to fix 5 if there is anything wrong with it? Or will we get, "Sorry, no time, working on Poser 6."?

I am not a CL groupie, but in this case I don't think you have much of an argument. CL isn't big. If they spent the time you would want them correcting somebody else's code, there wouldn't be a Poser 5. Have you ever tried fixing other people's code? It usually works out better if you start from scratch. If you do start from scratch, you might as well make it worthwhile and throw in more features and make it the next release version. I know, I'm a programmer (though not for CL).

"Point 2. I also firmly believe that the acquiescent attitude here convinced CL that they could get away with Point 1."

You may have been using Poser for a while but have you been reading here for a while? No one has remained quiet in this forum. -or the Poser Technical forum.

"Kendra, no, I'm usually very optimistic on matters. But three years of P4 with no attempt from its owners to try to fix it, makes me skeptical of anything CL does." & "But given CL's track record with Poser 4, do you really trust them to fix 5 if there is anything wrong with it? Or will we get, "Sorry, no time, working on Poser 6."?"

CL took over Poser in vs4. My poser4 is from Metacreations. It's not like CL has been dicking around since P4 first came out. The put out the patch and started working on vs 5. And from what I've seen of it, it looks like it will be well worth the wait. Until this month I had no idea that vs5 was as close as it was.
It would be nice to know the upgrade price in advance but CL is going above and beyond by posting in here and letting us see what they're working on for us.

Yes, they're also out to make a buck, who isn't?

If I remeber right, CL only added a Phone-Home-Function to the Patch which were out on Robert Whisenant's Site for quite a time earlier. As far as I know they did not fix much in Poser 4. If Poser 5 is as buggy as Poser 4 was when it came out, we will have to hope for early bugfixes. But either way, I will spend my money if I knew I have a working Software.

There may well be some CL groupies here & you may think I'm one of them, but that's only after using Poser4 & chatting & swapping jokes with some of them, they are nice people who just happen to have created the software which we as users have pushed to the very limits of its capability. You mention Crosstalk, that was caused by us not by CL or poser, if Charles Taylor, Robert Whisenant & others hadn't found out how to use it there'd be no problem with it at all. Personally I'm not bothered if Crosstalk isn't fixed for P5 we have ways round the problem already. Rob

Let me make a few comments.... I have been too quiet of late anyway :)

I think the folks at CL rock. They have always been available and informative. When I have needed too I have been able to get in touch with Steve Cooper and not get brushed off - he has been a valuable resource. Does that make me biased? Maybe. I don't see how it is wrong to have a positive opinion of people who you think are doing the "right thing".

That being said, of course it would have been better to have had some more fixes to Poser. The delay between Poser 4 and 5 has seriously threatened the momentum of the software and it's market. Make no mistake, the folks at Max, Truespace and Lightwave have seen recently that there is a serious dedicated "pro-am" core to the 3D world and they are coming hard and fast.

Will Poser 5 change that? Can it survive in the face of the onslaught to come? Hard to say - but I think it might do it... if the community that supports it stays with it; and that will only happen if the features are there. CL knows that I am sure, the community is the core advantage Poser has... the Poser 5 upgrade will keep CL in the technology race, but it will not leapfrog the high end systems... they simply don't have the resources for that.  So it comes down to content - that's what makes Poser a commercially viable platform for those of us who use it to make money, and that's what makes it a valuable tool for hobbyists. The "Content Paradise" component seems to indicate strongly that CL recognizes this as well.

Do I wish CL had done more for Poser 4? Sure. But only they know their resources, and a delay in Poser 5 would have been fatal to this software and this community... it will be worth the trade off to make that release happen as fast as possible.

"basics like conforming clothing, I believe. And then there's Messiah:Animate, which is supposedly similar to Poser, although I'm willing to bet that it lacks some of those basics we take for granted, too (does ANY other app do conforming clothing? Lightwave? 3DS Max?), and costs a hell of a lot more. Way too much for me to even care what it can do. It's far beyond my feeble budget."

Actually, all the other apps can do what Poser does. Conforming clothing is simply a matched mesh deformation - and it isn't really a viable one for production scale rendering at that. In Max, Lightwave, Truespace and others you would make the clothing a separate boned figure and tie the bone parameters to those of the primary skeleton. You would get the equivalent of conforming and you would have a lot of control over the process.

Technology has never been on Poser's side. What HAS been is the content - the community makes it worth it because in the end I can spend a week or two setting up a Max figure or an hour or two purchasing what I need for a Poser figure... as long as a lot of animation isn't needed that will work just as well and be a LOT faster. With Poser 4 this crucial economic reality has been slipping... clients are demanding more and more realism and it begins to take longer to fix Poser's flaws than it would to use Max all the way. The Pro Pack helped this, and was a much more significant upgrade to this community than most people realize I think because of it.

Now comes Poser 5, and that scale will be evened out much more than it has. Poser will have a competitive renderer to many low end systems (though not up with the real big guns) and the technology to once again make Poser content a economically useful first choice for those in the industry. That will be invaluable.

Skimming the forum noticed this thread... Having been named specifically three times, all of which attribute "facts" to someone other than the responsible party, I thought I could/should clear up some apparent misconceptions.

"Crosstalk - This has been mentioned several times in this thread. I'd like to point out that crosstalk is nothing to do with either Metacreations or CL. It's an unfortunate by-product of advances made by the users themselves (specifically Charles 'Nerd' Taylor and Robert Whisenet), when they invented ERC. Crosstalk may be a pain, but don't blame CL for it."

"You mention Crosstalk, that was caused by us not by CL or poser, if Charles Taylor, Robert Whisenant & others hadn't found out how to use it there'd be no problem with it at all."

Both of the above statements are incorrect. Contrary to whats been said, MetaCreations introduced Full Body Morphs and Conforming Clothing [Figures] in Poser4, and while doing so created a problem we've all come to know and love as crosstalk. This problem existed long before I did anything with ERC (or EMC for that matter). When MetaCreations divested themselves of Poser, Curious Labs was formed (from the team responsible for Poser at MetaCreations) and took the helm... supposedly out from under the corporate thumb of MC (the MC PTB were claimed to have been the cause of friction slowing their development). After a couple patches and new software(s) over a 2 year 4 month (and counting) ownership by Curious Labs, crosstalk remains to be a problem... They [CL] inherited the problem from their previous selves [MC]. That said, I do know [via email and phone conversations with the PTB] there has been interest recently in addressing the issue. Fixed in five? Don't know, maybe...

"If I remeber right, CL only added a Phone-Home-Function to the Patch which were out on Robert Whisenant's Site for quite a time earlier."

There were a couple things addressed in the patches, some of which fixed problems created by previous patches... However, there were never any patches available on my personal website (links to the page at ghost effects website, yes, but no actual download link). My guess is that I'm being confused with Larry Weinberg and the patches he posted once on his website [ghosteffects.com].

I understand that the above comments are more than likely honest mistakes... I just wanted to help clarify the facts as I know them. Thanks for your time.

-Rob

Robert Whisenant
Content Production Coordinator
DAZ Productions, Inc.

Sorry Robert you helped to bring it into the mainstream & make it usable for the rest of us, that's what I should have said. Not to say you'd caused the problem, apologies to you & charles Taylor. Rob

It would be awful if crosstalk was not fixed in P5. Preventing people from having multiple characters with unique characteristics based on one is a major problem. The kludge that's out there is cubersome at best, especially for those who haven't grown up with the problem. If CL has not fixed that I would think long and hard about upgrading.

Thanks for the info Robert. I'm still hoping they will fix it in 5 (pretty please?).

WizardOfGauze, Poser 5 IS the bug fix for Poser 4.

Hi Robert, Sorry to have dragged you into this with misinformation on my part. I always tend to think of you and Charles in connection with ERC and therefore, crosstalk. As you rightly state, crosstalk was already there with FBMs, not as a result of your work. And BTW. congrats on your new position with DAZ. mac

Hey folks, I'm still reeling after a hectic Siggraph followed by a hectic development schedule. Is crosstalk fixed in 5? Yes. Very intriguing thread to say the least. Good information to hear. Back to the tasks at hand. ;-) Kupa

Hi Kupa! Will there be a CL newletter sent out when the official upgrade pricing and release info is determined? Haven't rec'd one lately. (Okay, we're all anxious for official info... :-))

Mr Whisenant: Thank you sir for coming in and confirming what many in this thread already knew...that the people at CL are the same ones who developed Poser. CL themselves state it on their web site: "Fans of the application will be pleased to know that Curious Labs is made up of the core engineering and development staff that worked on Poser at MetaCreations." But unfortunately, many of the flag-wavers aren't interested in facts, just excuses. That was one of my beefs originally, that the members here, instead of demanding fair treatment, have adopted an attitude of complacency and even began making up their own excuses for CL's behavior. Speaking of that: Leather-guy, Okay, now it's been a week since siggraph ended. And 4 days since Mr Cooper got back. But STILL no upgrade price, no official release date, and no updated web page. What's the excuse now? By the way, I can update a web page with new text and pictures in about an hour. And is Mr C the only guy at CL that can put info on their web site? jjsemp: "Poser 5 IS the bug fix for Poser 4" LOL! You're right, unfortunately. Or, let's HOPE your right. Can anyone here compare this situation to any other type of purchase? Lets say I buy a new car, the MitchuToy ExCusmi. It runs great! Gets me from point A to B perfectly. Of course, two of the windows only go down halfway and I can't read the radio's digital readout, and the trunk lid sticks. Oh, but those are just minor inconveniences, I'm sure they'll get them fixed soon. Oh, and one other thing, once in awhile, the engine just dies for no reason. But thats no big thing. I just get out and push it off the road and it restarts in a few minutes. No big thing. Oh, I just called the dealer about the "inconveninces." He said I'd have to wait and buy next year's model. They'll be fixed then. But they won't fix the problems with my model. Oh, I can't wait for the next model year so I can buy another ExCusmi that works. Kupa: Thank you for the straight answer on crosstalk. Very nice to hear. Now can we have the release date and upgrade price???

Actually, the car you described sounds like a Ferrari ;-) ...and we're actually queing up a fully revamped web site, so it's going to take a few more days, possibly even a week for complete details. Official word on release is end of summer. Upgrade prices and details will be available in the new web site. An important point to notice is that the P5 press release price indicates SRP (suggested retail price). What you pay on the street is called ASP (average selling price). For reference, the difference between Poser 4's SRP and ASP is over 30%. I'm really, really, really looking forward to being to shake loose all the details. Kupa

Is crosstalk fixed in 5? Yes. Thank you. You've got at least one sale(and probably a few more)!

Thanks for clearing up the date issue, you don't have one yet. As for the upgrade price and other details, you either don't know them or you just aren't saying. AFter all, you ARE the boss aren't you? Waiting for a web site revamp is just another lame excuse. (sorry for being so blunt, but you got off easy compared to that car dealer.) And for all the flag-wavers who like to blame Windows for Poser lockups... another BS excuse. I've read more than a few times in this forum statements like "Poser is the only program that does this," and "...it only happens with Poser." And that's been my experience as well. I can have several memory & cpu intensive programs running and not have a hiccup. Poser could be running by itself and freeze. So please stop blaming Microsoft, they're innocent on this one.

Well, since crosstalk seems to be fixed that's going to be one less excuse I have.

WOG what were you doing when poser froze?,these days the only reason poser freezes for me is because it can't find a texture that either a character of MATpose asks for, which is not the fault of poser or windows. Rob