Hello all, e-on software is working on a new, not-for-free technical support program. We recognize that there are a lot of users who are earning their daily bread with our software and we want to be able to create a program that meets your needs. I'd really appreciate it if you could follow this message with your suggestions, including both what you need and what you think its worth to get it. We already support self-help and non-emergency support for free. But we know that isnt enough for all users. Best regards, Lynn Fredricks e-on software

Lynn,

Hi! In regards to Vue4 Pro, I've been supportive from the beginning defending E-On on many issues because I thought most were knee-jerk angry reactions. Though now is probably not a great time to be asking about paying for tech support since there are still quite a number of issues with this newest piece of software - which.... I should add, has incredible potential and I'm looking forward to it being completely stable and reliable!

That being said, I personally am against a "pay for tech support" policy. My primary piece of software is Lightwave and I use it EVERY day, Sun. thru Sat., and Newtek support has always been free (AFAIK). I have used Vue d'Esprit mainly for background skies and I haven't found time yet to work with Ozone2. I have also purchased Vue4 Pro and my main issue with this software is that it does not yet import LW objects with textures in tact. The textures ARE there, but every one of them has to be resized. When you're dealing with a couple hundred textures that gets tedious VERY quickly. E-On tech support essentially said to "wait for the next patch and see if it's fixed." If this is what we would be paying for, it won't work. I think it might be a good idea if you were to spell out precisely WHAT a "Paid for Tech Support Program" would entail.

Lightwave has it's problems too, but they are not quite as abundant as Vue4 Pro is at the moment. I do believe that Newtek has a few more employees than E-On does, but that should not sway any argument FOR paid tech support. I have never used paid tech support and until it becomes mandatory, I doubt I ever will. I never base a project on software I am not familiar with. I figured I would learn Vue4 Pro and when it worked well-enough for me, I would include it in my list of software I often use - until then, it stays on the R&D shelf where when I DO find time, I work with it and try to find solutions to do something interesting. There are forums such as this that help others find solutions to their software problems and it will not be easy for you to convince users that paid tech support will work.

I apologize if I am completely mis-reading the question. Oftentimes things need to be spelled out for me - you may need to do so here! :)

Thanks!

Megalodon

Hello,

I don't have anything to offer in terms of paid tech support other than as a hobbyist...I'd never go for it.

However,
I do have one or two suggestions about E-On's Knowledge base. It would be nice to have a sort filter based upon date so I can read the latest discussions quickly rather than going through posts made Jan 2003. Sometimes it's useful to read the latest threads on the different problems.

Only other suggestion would be if the Devs posted a page on Patch status and also known confirmed bugs being worked on.

There was a response to a user on E-on KB that stated:

Yes, there is a specific software for Poser 5 full animation imports into Vue 4 Pro, It's called Mover 4, and edited by e-onsoftware ;-)
The only things you wont do withit is dynamic hair and clothes imports, but you will be able to import any Poser 5 animated files.

This makes Mover 4 sound great- yet there are a lot of problems with Mover 4. Import an animated path from Poser 5 and play with the way points in Vue Pro and watch the program either shut down, or have the way points go haywire. Tech support has acknowledged this problem, yet it isn't mentioned to the person about to burn $80.

I have had success with Poser 5 importing static models...or animations that talk created with Mimic, but importing a walk cycle and pathing it using Mover doesn't work.

Anyway- my 2cents.
Regards,
JB

In a word. No

It's a mistake. Your going to get hobbiest mixed up with Companies. We bought a program that is suppose to work.
If it does not work why should we pay to fix it?

Or don't listen

It will be the end of E-on.

A little bit better support would go a long way in fixing this beta mess. Bugs get entered over and over again by different people and we all know your working on a fix but there is no feed back, It's silence till it's fixed.
I think if you had a better reporting system where we could go threw the list of problems to see if our problem has been reported, A place to add yes I've got the same problem, and if no fix when at least your going to work on it. That would be a way better system.

If your in a hurry and your company name is microsoft well then I'm all for charging them for a fix. But me personally paying to get a bug fixed, I don't think so.

Remember your trying to grow as a company not shrink into oblivion. Try to keep your customers happy.

Like does that mean we'll get paid on this board? Like how many times have I helped people here figure out and get this program working right for them. I don't ask anything in return and I'm not the only one here doing it. We do it so this software we love gets better and bigger and better. It's in all our interests to see that this software succeeds.

It's us who support you so we are asking that you support us.

Number #1 rule of business:

Don't tick your customers off.

Okay.... let's simmer down a tad. We need Lynn to clarify exactly what this "Paid for Tech Support Program" would entail before we get irate. And then if it warrants it we'll get irate! :) My first thought is that this is NOT a good thing, but as hard as it is to believe... I have been wrong in the past! ;) Please let's NOT turn this into a nasty shouting match. Let's try to be constructive and have a discussion in a (somewhat) civilized manner. After all, we all want bug-free software and increasingly better versions of Vue in the future! Megalodon

Thanks Mighty Pete Nough said. Bot

I can see when paid technical support would be nice for professionals looking to do new ways of animation or combining various programs or projects into Vue4 Pro.
I cannot see where if I buy software that continuously "crashes", or has bugs in transporting, sizing, or saving of files why I should pay to get help for buggy software?
Now I don't care how many say this software is "bug free" it simply is not to many E-On customers who have been on the e-mail hotline since this new release came out. I am tired of hearing that it is my system, my video card,another program conflict, and on and on. Vue4 worked absolutely GREAT except the opengl bugs that still exist in Vue4 Pro. I am lucky enought to sell computers for a living and I tested this program on five differnet models (all top of the line p4's with various graphics cards and no less than 512k highspeed memory. Guess what? The program will crash somewhere before a project is completed on ALL of them. All are running XP PRO with all the latest Microsoft fixes. No other programs except those used by XP are running. In my simple mind, its a coding conflict AKA "a bug" in the software.Whose software is the question. I have sent both Microsoft and E-On copies of the shutdown error messages. Prehaps this will help. Prehaps it's a Windows bug and can be fixed.
Vue4 is a great program regardless of shortcomings and hardly ever crashes. But Vue4 Pro... needs to have some serious patches. I am sure regardless of what is said, E-on is aware of these problems as are the many graphics web sites who report these glitches using their own testing. I will hang on to my copy and hope E-on will get another patch out soon. I am sure they are receiving information on the problems. To pay to fix something that was broke when released simply will not fly.

Lynn, I can't see "paid-for" technical support attracting much if any of the hobbyist market people like me). Especially when over half the problems with Vue or Vue Pro I see posted in this forum are solved by members here, some of whom have not had good experience with existing technical support at the E-on website. For the professional market, well, that is a different ball of wax. I do have a few suggestions. The design of the E-on website is not very user-friendly. It is quite difficult to navigate around and find the support areas, and you have to go through the knowledge base (as stated elsewhere) that comes up with irrelevant results sometimes. I think E-on needs a professional designer to look at their website with usability in the forefront of their mind. Second, in another thread, the idea of a tech support forum was brought up. I think this is an excellent idea. This would allow E-on to interact more directly with their customers, and vice versa, and solutions to common problems can usually be "sticky noted" in most forum board software so it's easy to find for visitors. I think you folks should very seriously consider this option, which would be very low cost, very good public relations with your customer, and could very well solve some of the current problems both E-on and your users are having. Regards, Djeser

To be perfectly honest I see paid tech support as just a way to make money from inadequately written manuals and buggy software. Lets face it, Vue is not a complex program so all users issues can be resolved in forums like this. If paid tech support means, "24 hr, real tech person on the end of the phone" paid tech support then maybe you should consider it....but in my opinion Vue is not complex enough to warrant it. cheers

Hi Lynn, Personnally I can't see myself using paid for tech support. While I do a little bit of paid freelance work using Vue I never try to do anything I'll be paid for with software I don't consider stable and that I don't know I can do what I want to in already. Thats why at the moment I'll stick to Vue d'Esprite and just play with Vue Pro - I hope this will change soon when Pro becomes more stable as there are many of its features I want to use but its just not reliable enought at the moment. Basicly these days I'm a hobbyist. However having worked as a 3d professional for 18 months back in the 90s I can see why an option for paid technical support appeals to some users (such as a CG House doing film or TV work). If you want to use a piece of software in a project with a tight deadline and you suddenly develope an issue that you just have to have fixed right now or the project will go under then paid technical support has a certain (slightly tainted) appeal. Or if you need an answer to a question that you can't figure out and asking on a public forum is something your not comfortable doing because it could affect your companies reputation. Of if you need a plug-in/script/convertor producing so you can get the software to work in your workflow. But my feeling is that paid technical support should never charge for a bug fix. If there is a bug in a piece of software my feeling is that its the job of the company that produced the software to fix it. I understand how complex the code behind a piece of feature rich software like Vue is and fixing a bug isn't always easy. However as with a fault in any other field its the producers responsibility to correct it free of charge. Cheers Mark

Paid support? OK, how about this idea: If the error is in the program or if the manual gives incorrect information on how to do something, E-on will re-imburse us for our call and our time. If, on the other hand, the error is one by the caller, then E-on is re-imbursed. Some may say that sounds harsh but...E-on has sold (most recently) a piece of software that seems to be giving errors to a lot of purchasers. It seems harsh to me to THEN turn around and suggest these purchasers pay E-on for support to fix those bugs. After all, that isn't how buying an automobile is...can you imagine buying a car and then having to pay to have the manufacturer fix HIS defects?!

First of all, the idea may be alright but the timing is very bad. There are a lot of VuePro users out here right now wrestling with a buggy release (myself included). Not good. And this forum takes good care of Vue4 users. I think e-on money would be better spend in working on bug fixes, not beefed up support. You don't need a lot of support if the software works. Also, I completely agree with Djeser in that the design of your support site could use some work. what if I don't want to seach the knowledge base? what if I just want to post a question? Direct access to various support offerings would be nice.

No...I will not pay for tech-support and never will. I read an article in the WSJ a couple weeks back that said software companies in general are loosing a lot of business due to the fact that these companies are releasing the software too early & using it's customers to find or fix the bugs. I personally don't have time for this unless you are going to pay me for fixing the program ;. OTOH I realize virtually no software is bug free, so I do have some patience. I have not bought VPro yet, I am waiting till the kinks get worked out, however, the savings first offered is long gone. So, it's a no win situation. I totally agree with Lingrif. That all being said I love my Vue4 & will continue with that till Pro gets the bugs out.

My opinion is that "paid for" support might work once e-on clarifies their image, strategy and intended user base. For example, if Vue Pro is supposed to be a "super charged" Vue 4 for hobbyists, I hardly see anyone willing to pay for support. If it is intended for professionals, then Vue Pro has a lot more issues before getting to the "paid for" support. Confusing website, scratched CDs, problems with installation (I can't even install my own copy). E-on needs to fix the most obvious issues first before looking like a credible partner for professionals. Only then, maybe, a "paid for" support service will make sense.

Thanks but I'll pass on that offer. We paid enough to be your free beta testors and I sure won't pay for tech support. I'm still waiting for an answer that I sent the first week it shipped. Maybe if E-on had a better track record of answering questions posted to their Knowledge base or e-mails then I might be more inclined (although I have NEVER paid for any tech support for any other program I use). If E-on is really interested in answering customer problems, see Jasc's PaintShop Pro site for some ideas. For a inexpensive program like PSP, they have tons of tutorials, freebies, forums, FREE technical support by e-mail, etc. Bad idea with bad timing... Peggy

I got suckered into paying support for Alias Power Animator and Maya way back in time. It was a nightmare. I will never do that again. E-on has released software with wonderful POTENTIAL. It is, as yet, not for professionals. Your render time is beyond professional use. It ties up way too many computers for way too long. Your render cows take a technical genius to set up. It is impossible to render looped vegatation animations because of the incredible blips that occur at the end and beginning of the frames. There is horrid flicker on animations that takes hours and hours of tweaking in post to correct jut to be moderately usable. Vue Pro software is sold saying you can export it into other software. That is a joke. Poser imports properly. Vue Pro exported to Max is very low quality. As a "professional" I purchased this software to do titles and some effects for a Television Documentary. I have had to totally scrap that idea based on the above mentioned glitches. It is back on the hobby shelf in my company. To gauge people for support on software that is not professional quality and does not even do what it is sold to do is fraud in my opinion. It leads to creating bugs so that people have to pay "support" to get them corrected. Getting your software to render sensibly, loop animations so they are usable in compositing, make the most basic act of cutting and pasting keyframes available, create a decent export function and professional people will actually use your software in a production environment. Right now Vue Pro is an expensive "Hobby" software. As an artist who uses 3d professionally in TV production that is my opinion.

No I will not pay for tech support for a program that should be working when it is released. beta testers paying to get their answers. I think not. Lynn was great with me on getting one issue resolved using email but when it comes to tech support it is the worst I have ever delt with. I am now on day 6 of waiting for an answer of why 3 plants will not work with Vue Pro. It is either a serial issue or a bad or corrupt plant file. Simple solution was to send both again but they haven't thought of that yet. If that don't work then we find another solution. asking and answering one question and then to wait 24 hrs for another of the same gets irratating after a few days. I suggested a forum like at Daz would be a step in the right direction. Is e-on understaffed. Did e-on really realize they were releasing a buggy piece of software that would cause this much trouble. Is e-on short on cash. Something don't add up with what is happening. Why didn't e-on include enough in the price of the software to cover a few phone calls. How is it that other companys such as PSP can offer free support with a forum and a toll free number and survive when e-on is showing it needs to money to be able to offer the same. :o( I have been in business for myself since 16 yrs of age. Tick the customer off and a bad reaction can have a snowball effect. Just one irrate customer can cause a loss in sales that I am sure would pay for a lot of phone calls. :o) I have vue 4 and have never had to use tech support with the software. I ordered Vue Pro for my daughter to put on her machine and have been 3-4 weeks trying to get it so can turn over to her. Would I have bought Vue Pro for her had I known that I was going to have these kind of problems with tech support. No, I bought with the intention it would work the same as Vue 4 of which I have had great suggest with. There is a lot that needs to be addressed with e-on and their tech support and I hope they take the answers to lynns question seriously.

I think it's a good idea...EVENTUALLY. But not right now. In fact implementing this now would be terrible for E-on's reputation. Fix the bugs first. Give everybody who has purchased the product credits to use the payed service for a few calls. Then and only then set up a for pay tech service for professional Vue users who need a fix for their problems immediately. PLEASE DO NOT abandon the hobbyists! Keep the free tech support system and improve upon it using revenue from the pay service.

Howdy all, This follows a separate thread in which someone asked about professional level technical support. This is only in regards to folks who need help now on the telephone -- folks who are often billing their clients a mighty sum. This isnt for the hobbyist. Megalodon, Im putting this out for your feedback, but understand that LightWave has about $1,000 worth of padding in their price compared to Vue 4 Professional. Id say some of that $1,000 is allocated to support bandwidth. Part of the support picture is figuring out what to make an included side-dish and what else should be ala carte. The free email and knowledge base support, as Steve indicated, is under review. I apologize for any delays support has in responding. I know from our internal reviews that in many cases, delays are caused by a lack of detailed information needed to reproduce a problem. We have one, for example, which remains unsolved because the customer won't send in a screenshot. Significant new functionality was added with Pro, and while Pro was thoroughly tested in the beta cycle, you cannot anticipate every possible configuration of hardware and software -- and Pro defintely has a broader number of "connects" than Vue d'Esprit. Only upon public release can a software company get the real picture, and then respond with updates, fixes and workarounds. That's what we are doing -- engineers are not twiddling their thumbs. Folks, if you want to turn this thread into a venting session, I can step back and leave it alone. I think direct dialog is a better way though. Best regards, Lynn Fredricks e-on software

Lynn not being rude but I think anyone who spends their hard earned money expect the same be it hobbist or a professional. If you didn't intend for hobbist to have Vue Pro with same support as Professionals or the same benifits, then that should have been stated when it was released and in the Eula. Not after the facts when you have the customers money. Am I wrong in thinking this way.

Now that I read the other thread where this one started I see your point. Around here it's the same answering peoples questions. They ask a question then vanish. They don't tell you what operating system there using how there computer is set up, nothing, then expect us to get them a solution . We ask that info and days later if ever we get a reply . Now not all people are like that but is not uncommon. I call them post and hide people. They may have found a solution somewhere else or got it working or figured some other way around to do what there trying to do but they leave the thread open or even better. Forget it people I figured it out and not say a word about how they did it for the next person coming around asking the exact same question. I still stand by that idea though charging directly for support is probably a big mistake. If you need "padding" to offset the cost of tech support I'd suggest a much longer indirect way of achieving that which will not tick anyone off and that's with added cost content. Extra cd's or stuff that we people could purchase with extra stuff for the program. Everyone benefits then. Like look at this setup. You guys sell extra shrubs but it's been the same shrubs for years. Nothing has been added to that list. I'm sure if you added a Cd, 650 megs of stuff they we could buy extra optionally lots would purchase it, You use that money to supplement tech support. It's indirect but it has the same effect and the added effect of making people happy instead of alienating them or making them feel that is what is happening to them even if it isn't. In word Poser 5. Look what happened there. The world is littered with bad business decisions. Learn form other companies mistakes. Look at what works and pick from that list and throw the long shots list of failures into the trash and move on. Yes Micronot does it and other companies too but do we have to stoop so low? I think we are better than that.

Hi Lynn!

You're right, Lightwave is about $1000 (give or take) more expensive than Vue4 Pro - but it can also do significantly ALOT more than Vue4 Pro. There may be some padding in there - though neither of us can be certain - but I doubt very much. Then again, who knows?

I won't address any of the bug issues with Vue4 Pro here at all - everyone else here is doing an abundantly adequate job. I'm sorry that this is coming off as a "venting session" here for alot of users. It would certainly by ALOT more constructive and helpful if those who do have problems could state them non-emotionally.

I am a professional 3D artist and would like to use Vue4 Pro in production - I see quite a few areas where this would offer an alternative look to what we are producing at this time. That being said, I cannot use it in a production environment because of the texture resizing problem. Vue4 Pro WILL be great piece of software but it is by no means as complicated to learn as Lightwave. Part of that "problem" is that E-On has made their software VERY intuitive. When I need to figure out something, it "should" be in the manual. And I must say that any one or company that bases their final output WITHOUT knowing their software is asking for trouble - and.... it's not professional. You NEVER base your project on what the software developer claims their product can do. You FIRST test out the product and prove to yourself it will work BEFORE ANY project is slated to rely on the software.

Anyway Lynn, I think there are a couple of very helpful comments here nontheless. Revamping the website with a better technical support scheme is a VERY good idea. A better way of handling current technical support may help to keep on top of things.

Everything else aside, I'm truly looking forward to Vue4 Pro being a valuable part of our arsenal. Its potential is incredible and I hope that E-On backs it 100% producing a rock-solid piece of software we can use in the professional environment. Once that has been accomplished, you will receive significantly less antagonistic responses from your user base. I'm really looking forward to it!

Thanks Lynn!

Megalodon

I hope no one is taking me as venting or being angery with anyone. I gave up Bryce because I think Vue is a great piece of software. It is my Number 1 application that I use to make images. I have no complaints with Lynn or the people of tech support or e-on. It is the way tech support is being handled is my complient. :o)

I like free tech support myself. Im not advocating eliminating the free support (and its never been discussed internally). That needs to continue, but it will have to be socketed into everything else related to support. The hobbyist market and pro market are totally different beasts however. When a product isnt working right, everyone wants an answer 15 minutes ago. The difference with the pro market is that there are Pro customers who are charging their customers $300 for that 15 minutes. They need someone on the phone ASAP or they are in big trouble. MightyPete, yes, we are discussing the plant situation. We want to bring more plants to market, maybe suppliment or add to whats currently available. By getting the Plant Editor out there, it also creates a viable third party market for plants that leverage SolidGrowth. Im hoping we will see some third party plants real soon now (I know of at least a couple of folks working on some). Best regards, Lynn Fredricks e-on software

When the software does not meet "professional' standareds no amount of phone calls (whether we are chareged for them or not) will make the software work properly. E-on needs to complete the development process and make it "professional". It does have potential and I am sure that in this business economy where venture capital investors are looking for good investment opportunities E-on would be a good choice. i do hope they get the capital they need to take it to true professional level rather than trying to nickle and dime unsatisfied customers.

"The hobbyist market and pro market are totally different beasts however. When a product isnt working right, everyone wants an answer 15 minutes ago. The difference with the pro market is that there are Pro customers who are charging their customers $300 for that 15 minutes. They need someone on the phone ASAP or they are in big trouble."

Please don't take offense to this, but perhaps you are asking this question in the wrong place. Honestly, how many people here in this forum are using V4Pro and "changing customers $300 for that 15 minutes."? Overall, this is a hobbyist forum so you will get hobbyist responses. So if you actually know of these pro people charging $300 for using V4Pro, maybe you should ask them directly. :)

There are some professional types mixed in here, but I'm sure you are right and the majority of people are not making 100% of their living off of digital video/3D production. Nonetheless we want to make sure the support is right for each type of customer. With the availability of Vue 4 Pro, we are getting a lot of new customers that are using it for production, and they are likely to look for answers in established Vue oriented communities as well (and Renderosity is a one of them). Best regards, Lynn Fredricks e-on software

True, and I agree that there are some here.

Aside from this thread, perhaps you can set up a survey on your website. Find out what all users think on a range of questions from the product to e-on, and most importantly ask if they are using it for professional level work to more hobbyist activities. Also ask people for their email address and if they would like to be included in further surveys. From there you can build a database of the "type" of users that you can use for future more specific surveys. For example, the question of this thread would have only been targetted to those who consider their usage pro level.

Just a suggestion on how to better target your users and get better feedback than a general question to everybody. :)

Well, you can call it venting or not (though you'll not see my name on "complaint" threads about Pro at all in this forum) BUT when a company suggests charging for support, too often it turns out to be a customer getting charged just to find out the manually is written incorrectly or that some aspect of the program doesn't work as it was advertised (or written up). That is what I hate about paid support...paying for the manufacturer's error. As a person who works in the support arena, I DO realize there are many people who call up for support and as a question (state a problem) that the manual completely explains. About half of my calls are laziness and the other half "real" problems that need to be fixed. If I were in a profit-oriented company (I work for the government), I'd not want to spend a lot of my resources "helping people read the manual", either. The only problem is that paid support usually means a customer pays for the company's errors, too.

Firstly, the original topic: Hobbiests are willing to spend time rather than money to resolve their problems. Professionals will do this also, but there are occassions that information is needed quickly and some users are willing to pay for that. This is most evident in the hardware market where you can pay for example, 24/7 on-site service for 12 months as an extra part of your original purchase. My company provides a help desk but find that we are mostly dealing with individuals that have missed the training or haven't looked through the manuals. It these people were paying they would take better care with their questions and we would be able to spend more resources and time on better training, problem solving strategies and development. Ideas on extra revenue: MightyPete's idea of CDs for sale is a great one and should extended to include downloads. DAZ has a terrific incentive and marketing scheme that sucks me in every week. I enjoy spending my money with DAZ and am happy to spend a dollar here and there to get lots of merchandise that is well advertised and described (I probably won't use a lot of the things that I have purchased or been given as a freebie). E-on didn't include many 'bits and pieces' with their release of Vue Pro. This was a disappointment as that is always something that I enjoy with opening a new package. If there was a large selection of new things for sale every week, I would jump at joining a scheme that gave me discounts and freebies. There are many things that could be sold or given away like atmospheres, terrains, models, materials, textures, scenes, etc. There are many people selling these things looking for more marketplaces. Bring the two together and stock your shelves. Check DAZ for their methods and ideas. E-on has incredible potential to grow in this direction and in-turn have more revenue for growth and future development. Scott (sacada)

Ya when I said shrubs that was just a example. I truly mean anything that can work with the Vue program. Anything really. I need more parts. One can never have too many parts, and it would sell well. Ya maybe grandma can afford Vue for the grand child in school but hey there is this extra CD of content that would fit the bill as a nice gift. Maybe the kid got Vue last year. That's my idea.

Though I'm a pro, I don't understand the distinction you're trying to make between myself and the hobbyist. We all deserve a dependable piece of software. When it works its stunning, but I challenge the notion that anyone's making their daily bread off of Vue4 for Mac. I've lost too much time and money trying to figure out how to keep it happy.

Get your product smoothed out and we'll talk. I'm trying to keep the faith, but e-on's timing on this doesn't ring kosher. I'd rather hear how hard you're working to eliminate all the problems.

No I will never pay for technical support for a product that should work properly in the first place. I am not a Pro user, but sympathise with the general tenor of the comments made by those suffering at present. May I say I find one statement in one of Lynn's replies particularly depressing: "Only upon public release can a software company get the real picture, and then respond with updates, fixes and workarounds." To me this reads as an open admission that quality assurance is so lax that they are deliberately using us, the unwitting purchasers, as a significant part of the testing plan. Imagine if car manufacturers did the same (though some might say they already do!). Yep, it's got four wheels and it seems to steer OK so let's put it on the market and see if buyers report anything siezing up or catching fire... then we'll have a look for a work-around or maybe fix it. I think not! And before anyone tries to tell me I obviously don't understand the complexities of software development and testing, let me add I spent almost 30 years in that profession so do have some knowledge whereof I speak.

So Flycatcher.... ...the software you worked on was as graphically complicated as Vue4 Pro? And you tested your software on EVERY conceivable machine configuration? I have a friend who has been in software development for the last 20 years (to the present) and he apparently well understands that software is becoming increasingly more sophisticated and it is impossible to test all possible configurations. A database program is one thing, a visual program such as Vue is entirely different. Try programming something like that to be compatible with every configuration BEFORE you release it. If you say you can you would be lying. This is NOT ten years ago when your choices for processor/graphics card/etc. were alot more limited and developers had it quite a bit easier to test their product. Perhaps we should get a little perspective? Megalodon

Well, megalodon, I'm glad you're happy debugging and beta-testing a product you paid for. When people begin to get complacent like that, then buggy software becomes the standard for makers to produce. So, having pounced on Flycatcher about how much more complicated Vue P is than your standard run-of-the-mill software packages and using that as a hint he (we) shouldn't expect the software to be "perfect" (i.e., expect errors), how, then, was Newtek able to produce a program much more complicated (IMO) than Vue P and yet have fewer complaints? If you tell me it is (was) due to being a bigger company and having more employees, then I'd say that's no excuse...a company should bite off more than they can chew. The "I'm a small company with a small budget...please take pity on my product as we weren't able to designate adequate resources to its development" excuse doesn't cut it with me. Frankly, as a citizen (translation, lowest common demoninator, the "sheep"), I'm a bit tired of being fleeced.

Chuck, no one from e-on has said ever said that. Flycatcher, my 14 years of international software sales and licensing seems to be contrary to yours. Im going to take Nightvoice's recommendation for needs assessment and leave this thread for the veteran's day (extended) weekend. Have a good rest of weekend all. Id like to thank those of you who responded to my original question and also the content suggestions. Best regards, Lynn Fredricks e-on software

Lynn: "Chuck, no one from e-on has said ever said that." Though I realize my remark may have intimated I was speaking of E-on, in the following, "...a company should bite off more than they can chew. The "I'm a small company with a small budget...please take pity on my product as we weren't able to designate adequate resources to its development" excuse doesn't cut it with me.", was a poor segue to a remark about ANY company that takes on a project too big for itself and its resources. I mentioned that in reference to a "theme" that seemed to become apparent to those defending a release of software too laden with bugs. I have no idea what resources E-on has, how much capitol they have, nor how long they spent on Vue P and what their testing methods were. I'm sorry, Lynn, if the remark seemed specific to E-on. Though I may disagree with paid support, I didn't want to infer I knew any more about E-on's practices than I do. I appreciate your attendance (E-on's attendance) in this forum and I don't want it to go away due to my inability to articulate my frustrations with ANY company that releases software before it is ready, large (more specifically, MS) or small. I apologize for the insinuation.

Well Chuck... You obviously don't use Lightwave and you have no idea the number of complaints and problems that came with Lightwave 6.0. There were ALOT of problems and Newtek did correct most of them - but it took quite a bit of time. Complacent? Yes, the software (Vue4 Pro) is buggy, but if you actually believe (as I stated above) that they can test their software on EVERY SINGLE CONFIGURATION now available you're out of your mind. It's just not possible. And by the way, the staff at E-On is quite a bit smaller than Newtek! It's NOT complacency, it's making an assessment of the real world and understanding that E-On does not want to release buggy software, it's just that they can't test for every contingency. And the sooner you and flycatcher realize this and move to help instead of complain incessantly, the faster the fixes will come. Everyone has their own interpretation of "what Lynn said," and I am just one person who gives E-On the benefit of the doubt. Pouncing on them does not help the situation. Try to help them solve the problem - or if you're not into that, sit back and wait for the fixes. You'll be lucky if you get them. Newtek released a free upgrade from 6.0 to 6.5 with alot of fixes and more functionality - but there were still bugs that weren't fixed. Then there was the paid upgrade to 7.0 and they stopped working on fixing 6.0. So those who didn't want to upgrade were still left with some of the bugs of 6.0. Hopefully E-On will do better! Instead of discussing the item by pointing fingers and yelling and saying how bad E-On is while being sarcastic, try to discuss it in a calm and reasonable manner - tooo many people just can't seem to do that! Megalodon

Well, Megalodon... "And the sooner you and flycatcher realize this and move to help instead of complain incessantly,..." Whoa! How about this? Instead of you catagorizing my replys to a solicited question as incessant complaining, why don't you do a search on the forum for my name and tell me the number of times I have complained about a bug in Vue Pro!? Try that before you label me as an incessant complainer! What I DID give an opinion about (when I wasn't explaining my apology) was releasing a buggy product and then asking how people felt about paying to have problems solved. Which, by the way, several other people echoed (yet I don't see you singling them out and labeling them as an incessant compainer). As a matter of fact, why don't you stick to the thread's subject (which was a guestion posed by E-on) instead of singling out (and "labeling") people who don't like E-on's "proposal"?

Actually... it was others in this thread that kept going OFF of the subject thread whereas I tried to keep it ON topic.
I DO apologize for lumping you in the category of "incessant complainers" since you say you are not. Sorry about that!
My point was that I really don't care how many people are complaining about buggy software - that wasn't the topic. Stop complaining about the software and answer the question OR ask a relevant question. Such as... "Hey Lynn, do you mean we would have to pay for support for problems with the software that may be bugs or that we could ask questions about how to do certain things that perhaps aren't clearly explained in the manual?" But no... we have primarily people saying that "We paid enough to be your free beta testors and I sure won't pay for tech support" or "Get your product smoothed out and we'll talk" - NOT helpful.

And Chuck, why don't you take a look at ALL of my posts on this thread ABOVE the Flycatcher post? They are perfectly ON TOPIC. I am just highly annoyed at people who won't stay on the topic and vent on the software - that DOESN'T HELP ANYONE! So if these other people want to go off topic, then I'll address their replies accordingly.

You said: "What I DID give an opinion about (when I wasn't explaining my apology) was releasing a buggy product and then asking how people felt about paying to have problems solved. Which, by the way, several other people echoed (yet I don't see you singling them out and labeling them as an incessant compainer)." MY POINT (which Lynn did NOT clarify) is that we don't know precisely what the paid for support means - you automatically took it to mean problem-solving for buggy software. I do not. I guess until Lynn clarifies this point (if she ever does, even though I specifically asked her to) you nor I will know preciesly WHAT paid for support is. But to ASSUME it's to help with buggy software doesn't help and only fuels the fires of discontentment. Correct? And I feel the same about those "other people" that "echoed" the same or similar sentiment. It's primarily just anger at their problems and NOTHING constructive.

Megalodon

That's true, we don't know what specific plans E-on had when they floated the question. My concern, and I mentioned it above in reply #29, is that the consumer will wind up more often than not paying for what should have been done free. Again, clarifying lest I get "jumped upon", when I say those things, I'm referring to paid support as handled by software companies in general. In a related comment (I assume), Friday I received version 8.1 of Paint Shop Pro in the mail with a letter explaining the release fixed some bugs. Now, THAT'S customer service! Haven't seen a company do THAT in years!

The only company that I've know to do that sort of thing (mail bug fixes) is Digital Workshop (UK-based) with Opus Pro - a multimedia creation program. Twice in the last two years! It was VERY refreshing! I think that perhaps they (E-On) should come out and say precisely WHAT their paid-for-support program would entail - what it covers and does not cover. It would certainly narrow down what people would get angry at! :) Again, I apologize for apparently coming on a tad too strong. When everyone stops pointing fingers (including myself) and starts adding to the debate CONSTRUCTIVELY, things will get better. It would have been better if E-On had taken care of most of the bugs FIRST and THEN brought up the "paid-for-tech-support" question. Then the people here would not be so... passionate with their responses! Megalodon

"Again, I apologize for apparently coming on a tad too strong." No problem...consider it forgotten. And yes, a few details on what E-on is thinking about, in terms of paid support, might do a lot to settle down some of the comments. And you make some good points about getting the errors on record so they can be fixed so that Vue P will (hopefully) become as dependable as Vue (reg.) is. Cheers!

Perhaps E-On should publish a 'qualified hardware list' like other graphic software companies. That way there can be some sort of base for professional users to compare against. I bought my video card based on one of these lists and although some games have stopped working (shame - get back to work : )) all my graphical application problems have gone.

DMM, that's a VERY good idea! You really should tell E-On about that one. That would definitely help out alot and as they increaee "their" knowledge base of good hardware they'll be able to update the list for ALL to see. Good One! Megalodon